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How soon do you expect to see better than primitive loot?

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Books being more rare would be horrible, it's already near impossible to find a book set on any normal run

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26 minutes ago, Tmodloader said:

Books being more rare would be horrible, it's already near impossible to find a book set on any normal run

I don't know about impossible.... on day 37 I've got 5 complete sets and 6 more at 6/7

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1 hour ago, Kalen said:

I don't know about impossible.... on day 37 I've got 5 complete sets and 6 more at 6/7

Literally never completed a set and I have 300 some hrs, I've been close but you guys must specifically scour the map for bookstores and gunshops

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1 minute ago, Tmodloader said:

Literally never completed a set and I have 300 some hrs, I've been close but you guys must specifically scour the map for bookstores and gunshops

I loot everything.... I find a lot of books in places like mailboxes, file cabinets, and desks.  I also buy them from the trader whenever I find one.

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On 8/28/2020 at 9:50 AM, meganoth said:

😉

 

 

You can open safes in shotgun messiahs? Unbelievable 😉

 

 

Within the first 5 safes/tool boxes/shotgun Messiah *BOXES* I open

 

Reading is hard

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12 hours ago, Tmodloader said:

Literally never completed a set and I have 300 some hrs, I've been close but you guys must specifically scour the map for bookstores and gunshops

187 hours  a18  and missed three with looting focused gameplay and rechecking  5 traders every reset after day  100

 

14 hours ago, Kalen said:

I don't know about impossible.... on day 37 I've got 5 complete sets and 6 more at 6/7

finishing first sets  is  easy .... the problematic part is  catching last pieces when  99%  magazines becomes trash(50xp)

its rather extreme rng if you want  100%  of them  amd its likely worse in a19  as TFP nerfed many sources (several houses ... cathedral .... have alot more empty bookcases instead  full)  .. on other   side  it gives us reason to raid bookstores ... even after day  20 when we  have all perk based recipes lol

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2 minutes ago, alanea said:

finishing first sets  is  easy .... the problematic part is  catching last pieces when  99%  magazines becomes trash(50xp)

its rather extreme rng if you want  100%  of them  amd its likely worse in a19  as TFP nerfed many sources (several houses ... cathedral .... have alot more empty bookcases instead  full)  .. on other   side  it gives us reason to raid bookstores ... even after day  20 when we  have all perk based recipes lol

No doubt.... eventually, traders become your best source of books for finishing off sets.

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39 minutes ago, Kalen said:

No doubt.... eventually, traders become your best source of books for finishing off sets.

yeah  but its little  .. too rng based for me:D i wouldnt mind if some books cost 5k .... if there was  more offered at once ( base cost is  800 ? thats quite cheap .. especially for some books like the one  that make you never trigger landmines)

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, guardianangelmp said:

 

 

Within the first 5 safes/tool boxes/shotgun Messiah *BOXES* I open

 

Reading is hard

You refer to the "in shotgun messiah" part? Oh, come on, you still were saying you open safes as well (with just lockpicks or a stone axe and no experience in safe cracking) and that is the unbelievable part, right?

 

Could you please also correct my punctuation while you're at it. 😉

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)

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feels like primitive weapons hang around just a bit too long. we played 4 maps during experimental, two groups of three. 

 

I like the new system, but it needs some tweaks.

tools don't seem to bad, found a wrench early in every playthrough, iron tools feel about right when you find them.  I think we got lucky on one and found a steel pickaxe fairly early, but wasn't worth using due to stamina. I'm not sure how the system is coded in but it does seem like you can still find a rare Loots early. we had a guy join late on his first day he found a battery Bank.

 

it was getting frustrating finding 200 Stone axes, but we also don't have lucky looter this time around, so that could be causing some of that.  

 

I do feel like wooden bows are in some dead zone, by the time we found a single wooden bow in all four playthroughs we had already had level five and six primitive bows, which might seem fine on a loot scale except at that point the primitive bows still did more damage than the wooden, when we finally got to the level 4 wooden bows we already had plenty of guns.

 

the one thing I noticed is you can't find any of a specific item level, until you cross over a threshold and there's tons of them. I was looking for a marksman rifle since we started our last playthrough, found none up until the point we found the first one which is to be expected, but then within that week we had like 7.

 

I think the transition between tears should be softer.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, takest said:

I think the transition between tears should be softer.

Nothing about this forum could have been said that was more true. 
 

oh...you were talking about the game. That’s tiers. ;)

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As much as i like to nitpick stuff, the loot balance in A19 is actually one of the things i like. It looked horrible on paper (on the screen), but once i started playing, it was pretty much spot on for me. (warrior , 120minuts days, 100% loot,  practicly no trader). 

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20 hours ago, Tmodloader said:

Books being more rare would be horrible, it's already near impossible to find a book set on any normal run

Nope. The problem is again level gating. You only get certain books with a certain level. Not cool, but that's the present state of affairs

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Noctoras said:

Nope. The problem is again level gating. You only get certain books with a certain level. Not cool, but that's the present state of affairs

Edit to add: Noctoras was referring to both schematics and perk books (see below) and schematics are scaled by gamestage. The below only applies to perk books.

 

This is not true. The only place in loot.xml where individual books appear is in this loot group, which has all of the books and no scaling (every book is equally likely):

<lootgroup name="perkBooks">
    <item name="bookRangersArrowRecovery"/>
    <item name="bookRangersCripplingShot"/>
    <item name="bookRangersKnockdown"/>
    <item name="bookRangersFlamingArrows"/>

    ....this goes on for the entire list of books...

    <item name="bookTechJunkie5Repulsor"/>
    <item name="bookTechJunkie6BatonCharge"/>
    <item name="bookTechJunkie7Hydraulics"/>
</lootgroup>

 

Additionally, every container or lootgroup where the "perkBooks" lootgroup is used has a fixed probability, not one based on gamestage. So it's not even more likely as you go up in gamestage to find books. Every container that might contain books has a fixed probability for finding them. And once RNG chooses "perkBooks" as the group to use, each book is equally likely regardless of gamestage.

 

Mailbox example below.
 

Spoiler

 

The mailbox container looks like this:


<lootcontainer id="14" count="0,2">
    <item group="booksAllScaled" prob="0.2"/>
    <item name="resourcePaper" prob="0.8" count="1,10"/>
</lootcontainer>

Since the prob values add up to 1.0 it's easy: 20% chance for books, 80% chance for paper. (It may also be empty, or provide double-loot, but % split between paper & books will be the same). But wait! It says booksAllScaled so HA! it must be scaled to gamestage! Nope. The name there is misleading (at least in A19.0). All probabilities in the "scaled" group are fixed:


<lootgroup name="booksAllScaled">
    <item group="perkBooks" prob="133"/>
    <item group="schematicsModsAndGeneralCommon" prob="60"/>
    <item group="schematicsToolsCommon" prob="7"/>
    <item group="schematicsWeaponsArmorCommon" prob="36"/>
    <item group="schematicsVehiclesCommon" prob="10"/>
    <item group="schematicsElectrical" prob="13"/>
    <item group="groupQuestChallenge" prob="10"/>
</lootgroup>

That works out to a 49.4% chance of getting something from the perkBooks list. Since there are 133 books in the list, the chance for each is 0.75%. And but so, the final odds are:

 

Chance for getting a book (any book) = 80% x 49.4% = 39.5%

Chance for getting a particular book = 80% x 49.4% x 0.75% = 0.3%

 

 

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, Roland said:

Nothing about this forum could have been said that was more true. 
 

oh...you were talking about the game. That’s tiers. ;)

auto correct strikes again, but I guess it was still correct 😆😆

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, takest said:

feels like primitive weapons hang around just a bit too long.

less than week

Quote

 

I like the new system, but it needs some tweaks.

tools don't seem to bad, found a wrench early in every playthrough, iron tools feel about right when you find them.  I think we got lucky on one and found a steel pickaxe fairly early, but wasn't worth using due to stamina. I'm not sure how the system is coded in but it does seem like you can still find a rare Loots early. we had a guy join late on his first day he found a battery Bank.

 

it was getting frustrating finding 200 Stone axes, but we also don't have lucky looter this time around, so that could be causing some of that.  

yeah wellthats quantity issue ... when you loot three shovels from one box .... this one should get better when they  add primitive guns  .. i think people see them as useless  mostly because they cant be sold .. unlike  normal loot and  scraping them gives almost nothing as well

Quote

I do feel like wooden bows are in some dead zone, by the time we found a single wooden bow in all four playthroughs we had already had level five and six primitive bows, which might seem fine on a loot scale except at that point the primitive bows still did more damage than the wooden, when we finally got to the level 4 wooden bows we already had plenty of guns.

because wooden bow belongs to same tier as pistol, magnum,  AK or iron tools

Quote

the one thing I noticed is you can't find any of a specific item level, until you cross over a threshold and there's tons of them. I was looking for a marksman rifle since we started our last playthrough, found none up until the point we found the first one which is to be expected, but then within that week we had like 7.

yeah guess transition should be little  bit earlier  but with alot lower chance as well slowly ioncreasing  now we are quite flooded by iron tools when we reach high enough  GS

Quote

I think the transition between tears should be softer.

hmm problem is  ... q6  is 50% better than q1 (or 40%?  doesnt matter) amd every mod slto adds 6%  so another 18% tmaking q1 wooden bow better than q6 primitive would  require huge  gap  between tiers stat wise

and primitive bow feels quite bad even now honestly we would be better with just wooden  + compound

wooden and primitive have same  low accuracy and projectile speed .. it kinda feels like someone forced in another bow withou actual place for it

 

Edited by alanea (see edit history)

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1 hour ago, Boidster said:

This is not true. The only place in loot.xml where individual books appear is in this loot group, which has all of the books and no scaling (every book is equally likely):

Sorry, I was considering recipes as books, my bad for not expressing myself adequately, which also goes for my previous answer

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6 minutes ago, Noctoras said:

Sorry, I was considering recipes as books, my bad for not expressing myself adequately, which also goes for my previous answer

I see, sorry. I updated my post above. You're right that schematics are scaled by gamestage.

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Huh I thought I read somewhere schematics and books were not gamestage scaled. That being said I have a current run on day 60 and have never seen a forge schematic, is that primitive loot that I likely passed?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tmodloader said:

Huh I thought I read somewhere schematics and books were not gamestage scaled.

Books no, schematics yes.

 

To continue the mailbox example above, there is a 20% to pull from this group:

<lootgroup name="booksAllScaled">
    <item group="perkBooks" prob="133"/>
    <item group="schematicsModsAndGeneralCommon" prob="60"/>
    <item group="schematicsToolsCommon" prob="7"/>
    <item group="schematicsWeaponsArmorCommon" prob="36"/>
    <item group="schematicsVehiclesCommon" prob="10"/>
    <item group="schematicsElectrical" prob="13"/>
    <item group="groupQuestChallenge" prob="10"/>
</lootgroup>

Each of those has a fixed probability to choose the group, but once you dive into a group - say "schematicsToolsCommon" - you might see this:

<lootgroup name="schematicsToolsCommon">
	<item group="schematicsToolsT0"/>
	<item group="schematicsToolsT1" loot_prob_template="ProbT1"/>
	<item group="schematicsToolsT2" loot_prob_template="ProbT2"/>
</lootgroup>

The T0 stuff isn't scaled so that group counts as 1.0 when calculating probability. The others - T1 and T2 - are going to have probabilities based on standard GS-scaled T1 and T2 probability tables. Whatever results come from the T1/T2 prob tables will be combined with the 1.0 for T0 and then final probability can be determined.

 

For example, at GS 100, it works out to 73% chance for something from the T0 list (which includes the Forge schematic), 24.1% chance for something in the T1 list, and 2.9% chance for a T2 item. Within the T0/T1/T2 groups, all items are equally likely.

 

1 hour ago, Tmodloader said:

That being said I have a current run on day 60 and have never seen a forge schematic, is that primitive loot that I likely passed?

Have faith, you can still find one! The "schematicsToolsT0" loot group where it lives is never used with a GS-scaled probability template. So it's always an option. As well, within destroyed forges the schematic has a flat 20% chance to pop up.

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)
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15 hours ago, meganoth said:

You refer to the "in shotgun messiah" part? Oh, come on, you still were saying you open safes as well (with just lockpicks or a stone axe and no experience in safe cracking) and that is the unbelievable part, right?

 

Could you please also correct my punctuation while you're at it. 😉

 

 

I could, but I won't, cause you couldn't pay me enough to do that job.

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35 minutes ago, guardianangelmp said:

I could, but I won't, cause you couldn't pay me enough to do that job.

I dunno, I've felt the loot provides me upgrades and the dupes blunderbuss are useful early on for multi shot and for selling to trader.  I play 60 minute days so leveling/looting hasn't felt to grindy to me.  Apart from wpns and tools the mods that show up are quite nice as well.

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48 minutes ago, Stingerwolf said:

Wait, wrenches are steel, aren't they?  Is this why, at Day 35, I have yet to find a single wrench?

No, wrenches count as Tier 1 tools, and they can be found in some containers (e.g. sinks) with no scaling to game stage. If my loot database is not lying to me, there are five containers which can produce a wrench with no GS-scaled probabilities (the lines without "ProbT1" in them):

 

Query1
blockname tblLootGroupItems.lootprobtemplatename
cntGraniteSink  
cntCabinetOldSink  
cntLootCrateConstructionSupplies ProbT1
cntLootCrateCarParts ProbT1
cntCollapsedWorkbench ProbT1
cntRollingToolBoxClosed  
cntToolBoxClosed  
cntStoreShelfSingleBottomHardware01  

 

Could be more than that; there is a lot of groups-within-groups going on and I'm not sure I covered all of the paths. But you get the idea.

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6 hours ago, Boidster said:

No, wrenches count as Tier 1 tools, and they can be found in some containers (e.g. sinks) with no scaling to game stage. If my loot database is not lying to me, there are five containers which can produce a wrench with no GS-scaled probabilities (the lines without "ProbT1" in them):

 

Query1
blockname tblLootGroupItems.lootprobtemplatename
cntGraniteSink  
cntCabinetOldSink  
cntLootCrateConstructionSupplies ProbT1
cntLootCrateCarParts ProbT1
cntCollapsedWorkbench ProbT1
cntRollingToolBoxClosed  
cntToolBoxClosed  
cntStoreShelfSingleBottomHardware01  

 

Could be more than that; there is a lot of groups-within-groups going on and I'm not sure I covered all of the paths. But you get the idea.

Thanks Boidster.  With no Trader in my world , I'm totally reliant on searching for items. I was unaware of the new loot progression but it's beginning to explain why I'm getting the same low-level stuff over and over again.  35 days - no wrenches, 2 blunderbusses, one pistol on day 30, very first Bow part today.  The struggle is real.

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