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Jacked-survivor

Some thoughts for the next gen version.

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1st, the PS4 version is poorly optimized. The game is not visually striking and looks like a mid tier game from the ps3 era.  Some of that can be overcome by playing around with the settings. However that should be handled on the offset by the company (either TFP or the port company). The PS4 has static hardware, optimization should already handled.

2nd, the lighting effects, even with tinkering, are poor. The system leans too hard into the creepy monster movie effect. It's neat the first time, but bothersome every time after that. Needing 6 lighting fixtures for 10 by 10 room is over doing things.

3rd Improved enemy abilities, new enemy types and AI. As is, they just march or charge  forward into my traps and die. Watching YouTubers play, they do the same thing on computer in A19. Or put simply, evolved undead aren't. Some undead with new abilities or maybe even some non-zombie monsters could add something new to the game.

4th N.P.C.s  Me, my wife's character and 2 traders there is no one else. The world is absolutely devoid of anything or anyone else. It's dull. It'd be neat if a few N.P.C.s could wander in to my fortress. They could deal with stuff like farming or filling preset production orders/quotas. It'd give me a reason to hang on to stuff like the guns I don't use and all the clothing I keep for some reason...

5th end game content. Once you hit the end of the Tech tree and have built your fortress of solititude, there is nothing left to do. A four meter deep moat around my castle with concrete walls and the Zeds will never get me. So something at the end of the rainbow gives me an objective to work towards.

6th Boats and water physics. I build around water locations. In my first play through, about a third of the drops from the airplane ended up in the lake. A boat would go a long way towards sorting that out. Also adds new play styles to the game. On the same note, I want to weaponize water and use it in my construction. Fountains and water filled moats add ascetic beauty and defensive measures. Also Zeds don't seem to be slowed by moving through water. If that's the case, it needs to be addressed.

7th Community engagement. The current disengagement of 7d2d leadership from the console players disheartening. It should feel like leadership is here trying to work with console players. The situation with ttg is what it is, but that doesn't mean it has to end in hard feelings. Let console players know the 7 days team is aware of them. It would go a fair distance towards keeping those players as customers for the next TFP project the company puts out.

8th keeping with the last point. Our moderator is abrasive. It's poor customer service. Most responses express frustration on the mod's part for the community member not being up to speed on the events with ttg and TFP's decision to abandon the current console players. Depending on the situation of that community member, how they clicked to this board, how recent the news they have is and if English is their first language (or what dialect of english they speak) all factor in. A wall of frustration from the only point of contact with the fun pimps is unlikely to make then want to purchase a future game from this company. I would suggest that the mod have their title changed from "made up internet name 7241" to "real first name TFP mod" this way we know whom we are addressing and they know they are doing a real job as well. Same idea as a name tag on a salesperson at a brick and mortar store. Regardless of other considerations, the people posting here spent their hard earned money on a TFP prodcut and deserve to be treated with respect. Perhaps a pre-written note about the situation with appropriate sorry about the xyz of it that they can just paste up as needed.

9th Lean into console sales rather then away from us. 7d2d doesn't break any new ground. But on the console, it's a great couch co-op game. My wife and I can sit back and spend an evening building forts. That's fun and it's something hard to come by these days. 

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1. This is partially due to the nature of a true Voxel game, and also partially a limitation of the console hardware. Increasing texture quality would require more RAM and VRAM. Not exactly something that can be expanded on in the consoles. I know these are concepts most console players simply don't understand, and I tried to be as detailed about it in the Sticky Thread as I could without blowing people minds.

 

2. Again, another limitation of the version on the console. Lighting has received a lot of work since the console version, yet these changes are unable to be ported to the currently existing platforms. Once more it becomes an issue of the hardware not being capable of the task.

 

3. This is still a huge core feature that is undergoing a large amount of change. Maybe around a20 or a21 we will start to see some real improvements here. Along with the introductions of Bandits and Survivors.

 

4. Branching off the answer to #3, Bandits and Survivors, plus the Duke and other unique NPC's are planned. They will be introduced with a lot of backstory, and will be key elements in many quests involving the full story of the game.

 

5. Also still a work in progress.  We haven't even seen the planned legendary gear or bosses yet, and there is still a lot of balancing to be finished up with the current system and loot tables.

 

6. Water will probably be one of the last core features to be worked on.  They made a few attempts back in a11-a13, but were limited with the way the code functioned at the time, so we have what we have.  They have talked about their plans of basic boats like rafts, better swimming, and better water mechanics so that you could set up aquifers, and would need to deal with issues like tunnels flooding when it rains. (That last part is one of the original reasons for the introduction of vault doors and hatches.)

 

7. You guys only bring this on yourselves by arguing facts, constantly splitting hairs, and not doing any research before starting a thread. It would be more helpful if a lot of console players would take a few minutes to read and research things, and try to be more informed. (I can say this for a large number of PC players as well. So it's not like I'm picking on you guys specifically. And if you start shouting PCMR, you're part of the problem.)

 

8. I'm blunt. I'm not going to sugar-coat it for you. I've been one of the largest console supporters since this started. I've fought for you guys, and tried to get as much information as TellTale and Iron Galaxy would share to help you.  If you come in acting like you've got a burr up your ass though, I'll take care of it for you. If you start a thread without even bothering to look at the three posts before yours first, I'll call you out and shut it down.  Could I be nicer? Probably. Give me a reason to. See #7.

 

9. TFP isn't a console publisher. They've done what they can to this point, but are stretched to do any more. They have openly stated their intentions, and plans for the future of the console. Just because it was posted a year ago doesn't change anything. It's still accurate. No news isn't dead new. It just means nothing has changed.  

I agree with you 100% on the stability of this title on the console. It's probably my most played game on the PS4, and 90% of it is split screen couch co-op. I really look forward to seeing the final version of the game ported over to the next generation console.

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Posted (edited)

On points 1 thru 6, these are the spaces where 7d2d falls down compared similar games. If a next gen port is to be attempted, they need to be addressed, that's just a straight up review and the things I dinged it for on metacritic. TFP is welcome to do with the feed back what they will.

Point 7. Leadership still needs to be involved with the community here. Engagement with the community boost sales. Plus when it comes time to sell TFP to a bigger game company that engaged community base will drive up the value of the company. Once apon a time Bethesda was a small company with a neat idea, naughty dog was a small company,  bio-ware was a small company. Leadership needs to be engaged with the community. 

Point 8. Reasons. Well I would start with being nice is the right thing to do. But also we are customers who have spent money and whom TFP would like to see us do so again. Or perhaps the person to whom you have decided has a burr might not and you're "taking care of it" when they just don't understand.  Another reason is good internet customer service is extremely important in an this sort of business model. Maybe another point to consider is that to some of the people posting here that 30 bucks could represent a significant amount of money, and store front doesn't represent the current situation. Again these are customers, not crows summoned from the ether of tarturus to peck at your liver. Yet another point to consider is that the customer got boned here. While TFP isn't in a place to fix anything, some sympathy and kind words would smooth things over a bit. It couldn't hurt in any case.

Point 9. 7 days to die isn't doing anything differently that the other game companies in this sphere aren't. It might do X better then company A, but it doesn't do Y as well as company B. But that couch co-op is something I don't see anywhere else in this space. TFP aren't currently a console company, but that they can't be. The resources to do so come from making sales, and all 9 of my points in the original post are aimed at helping a small company do just that.

If you could I'd like you to email my OP up the chain. Please.

Edited by Jacked-survivor
Forgot a sentence. (see edit history)
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Crowd funding could help optimize updating of content and may help with other aspects. I agree with all things said here. Yes the capacity of console is limiting but the product itself has extreme potential. I’ve been playing on console for 3-4 years. Enjoy the game thoroughly with a buddy of mine. We would love to see open world, potential endgame style content. Like in world bosses that are discovered or bosses that come out for horde night and make us survivors question if our builds are strong enough to withhold certain types of zombies. I’d love to have the more creative things available on console that pc already has, such as electricity. There’s so much potential for this game, I think they could use the communities help. 

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46 minutes ago, Jacked-survivor said:

On points 1 thru 6, these are the spaces where 7d2d falls down compared similar games. If a next gen port is to be attempted, they need to be addressed, that's just a straight up review and the things I dinged it for on metacritic. TFP is welcome to do with the feed back what they will.

A lot of these are things that are currently being worked on in the current PC build, or are slated to be worked on in the near future. Once we hit beta, then it's all about optimization and squashing those last bugs.  Take a look at some a19 vids and you can see how far the game has progressed from where the current console version is. They're doing a lot of work on lighting, updating graphics, and optimizing both the size of the client, and memory load.  It's a bit of a struggle though because as soon as you reduce the RAM footprint by 2GB, the graphics team has something to add that will use it up again. 😛

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I'm simple.

 

1). Paint!!!

2). All the Zombie Models.

3). All POI's.

4). Finalized Navezgane Map.

5). Improved Random Gen/Preview if possible.

6). Complete adjustable options. If I don't want Demolishers, don't want digging, etc, I should have that option. I want a classic survival zombie game, not some bs mechanics.

7). Drastic improvement on controls.

8). Improved Traders. 

 

9). And IF they do decide to port to console, make the 100% commitment to fix bugs/glitches. If they're not willing to stand behind their product, why the hell should we support them?

Edited by Jysen (see edit history)
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On 9/15/2020 at 1:21 AM, Jacked-survivor said:

So did you e-mail the original post up to (Rick) management?

This forum, like a lot of other forums as well, is moderated by volunteers. They are not employees of TFP and have only one task, keeping the forum spam-free, civil and on topic. Besides that all moderators just post their own opinions as normal forum users (with the exception of Roland who sometimes can report information directly from the devs).

 

TFP are not idiots. They surely know that the state of the old console port is not good for their customer relations to console players.

 

They decided to first finish the PC version and then let a publisher with console knowledge deal with the problems and optimizations for the console. This means that information about the current console versions limitations is as valuable as information about limitations of PC alpha15. So if they would ever thank you for the information that would would be nice customer relation work but essentially a polite lie 😉.

 

They are also a small indie developer and have no full-time customer relations guy who gets a big salary just to tell such nice lies to all the customers. Drawback is that people here feel like they are ignored. Make no mistake, some forum posters on the PC side complain about being ignored too, but the reality is that the devs like to program games and can't and shouldn't use hours of their time each day to answer questions on the forum. So their attendance here in the forum is a compromise.

 

 

 

 

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No, an hour or three a week talking to and building the community is an excellent way for a dev to spend time.

This game has been in Alpha for a very long time. Professional reviews are, shall we say less then outstanding. This game has good reviews on steam and that's about it. Yhatzi called boring on zero punctuation, and Achivement Hunter's Gavin Free called it not a good game. It tends to fall middle of the pack for the zombie crafting crowd of games. It doesn't do anything that other survival crafters don't do, and it's only real strength is couch co-opts.

 

Building that fan base is vital.

TFP's exit arc after 7dtd is either another game, hard to do if their is no community to rely on, or sell up to a bigger company, hard to get a good price with out that community to leverage as an asset. 

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Strange, never played couch-coop and have >2000 hours in the game. Is something wrong with me? 😄  You have to tell me which other game is PvE, fully voxel from bedrock to sky and has an interesting tower defense mechanic. And yes, all those features are important to me (and the friends I play with). We don't know any other game that comes even close. By the way, all the new alpha versions keep the game fresh and are an advantage for many if not most long time players.

 

I know 3 developers and a tester from TFP who already invest a few hours each week talking to and building the community. But lets face it, THAT community is playing on PCs. The console community will get a publisher/developer combo in a few years and a few people from that pool (maybe a few devs if you are lucky, public relation guys if you are unlucky) will be your contacts. They will listen to problems you have on the console, not TFP. I'm not clairvoyant to say this, this is how it was with Telltale/IG, right?

 

Meanwhile TFP has nothing worthwile to say to console players. There will be no relevant news for probably 2 years or more, there will be no development to talk about or plans. Nothing. There is a plan that can be told in all details in one sentence: Wait for PC to finish, then look for partners from the console space to port the game and make an agreement however that will look like.

 

No community? On the PC side I don't see anything pointing to a dwindling community or fan base. I'm not watching youtubers, your names don' tell me anything. Ask TFP if they are happy about the number of copies they sold, that is the only relevant number, not the critics ratings. Community is such a high-strung word that just means people interested in the same thing. Without any other glue they tend to come and go. All TFP needs is some minimum attention (which they definitely still have) so their next game is noticed and a good follow up game, the rest is just word-of-mouth really.

 

 

 

 

 

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Very interesting info Mega. I am aware that you have a million times more info about this situation than I do but I can't possibly comprehend why TFP would have invested money in retaining/regaining the console rights if they have no outlook for development until at least 2 years from now. Don't get me wrong, it is a great concept and pretty good on the console, but it doesn't seem to me to be the caliber of a game that would hold console players for many years to wait in expectation of a fully supportable game. Now if they did it to sell it off to another developer then I can get that but not to simply hang on for future. Maybe it is just me but that doesn't seem like a wise investment. Again my ignorance and lack of data regarding these things are great, but to develop a game in Alpha on PC for 7 years and then whenever that is completed ( your guess is as good as mine ) hang on for more years for a console version seems either extremely ignorant or arrogant or both. Now again they may have zero intention or interest in doing anything on the console, and of course that is their right, but the whole issue just perplexes me. Just my 2 cents. 

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3 hours ago, Bulldog44 said:

Very interesting info Mega. I am aware that you have a million times more info about this situation than I do but I can't possibly comprehend why TFP would have invested money in retaining/regaining the console rights if they have no outlook for development until at least 2 years from now. Don't get me wrong, it is a great concept and pretty good on the console, but it doesn't seem to me to be the caliber of a game that would hold console players for many years to wait in expectation of a fully supportable game. Now if they did it to sell it off to another developer then I can get that but not to simply hang on for future. Maybe it is just me but that doesn't seem like a wise investment. Again my ignorance and lack of data regarding these things are great, but to develop a game in Alpha on PC for 7 years and then whenever that is completed ( your guess is as good as mine ) hang on for more years for a console version seems either extremely ignorant or arrogant or both. Now again they may have zero intention or interest in doing anything on the console, and of course that is their right, but the whole issue just perplexes me. Just my 2 cents. 

 

Why should they bank on players waiting for the console game? New players turn up every day. Problems of a late game can only be that the graphics may be outdated, but 7D2D isn't big on graphics anyway. And that a competitor brings out a similar game before TFP does on console, can't be helped if that happens. 7 or 9 years is a lot, but new AAA games  (i.e. not sequels) take probably >4 years to develop as well, they just are announced much later so it often looks like they are much faster with it.

 

Also early alpha games have shown that they can successfully stay in development for a long time. Look at Factorio or Star Citizen. In a way those games keep fresh through their updates on a regular basis like a service game (in a way this is true even for SC where a playable game is still missing). They never can be catastrophic failures for a development studio because development continues only as long as their sales cover the costs. The long development time of all those games is an indication of their success in the market. 

 

Their chances to get licence money from 7D2D on the new consoles aren't too bad. For many console players who don't have a PC on the side 7D2D will be a new game, whether it arrives now or in 3 years. I assume a port to the more powerful new consoles will not take that much time,  less than a year surely. More capable hardware means less work to save memory, disk space, CPU and GPU cycles.

 

But TFP probably also regained the IP because they wanted to control WHO they work with in the future. This is just an assumption on my part, but what if the licence agreement with telltale was for expansions and future titles as well? What if someone just buys the licence to milk it for money no matter how much damage they do to the franchise long term?

 

7D2D is a success, how many developers can sell millions of copies of their very first game? TFP may never get such a successful game ever again. Keeping control over it may be the better strategy even if they had to pay as much for it as they gained in licencing money. On the new consoles they can eventually get the full game out, plus DLCs or an expansion plus 7D2D 2, in the long run that should be more than what they got now.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, meganoth said:

new AAA games  (i.e. not sequels) take probably >4 years to develop as well, they just are announced much later so it often looks like they are much faster with it.

The industry standard for PC games is 7-9 years, and for large console games that aren't ports is 5-7 years.   Usually you never hear any news about development until they are in the final stages, and are only a year or two from release. It's also extremely rare for them to give players access to the game before it's in the second wave of Beta testing.   With 7 Days on the PC, players have had access since practically day 1, and with the console only a little bit later. (Again, TellTale is at fault here for calling it a finished product when it was just a ported Alpha build.)

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You two have done yeoman's work in curtailing some of my ignorance. Some,,,,,, you aren't miracle workers of course :) . I think my frustration is unavoidable at this time. My friends and I still play this game regularly but have all grown a bit tired of it. Sadly there doesn't appear to be much that is similar on the market. If anyone has suggestions ( I play on the PS4 only ) please let me know. I enjoy the crafting and the first person aspect and the constantly having to be alert characteristics , so if you know of anything similar feel free to educate me. Thanks 

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Ever play The Forest?

 

It's a but more straightforward in terms of looting and crafting is limited to simple structures. World isn't voxel like 7d2d, but looks great, runs smooth, and controls feel good as well.

 

But, you are stranded on an island constantly surrounded by Cannibals and at night, freakish mutants emerge from the caverns below.

 

Still it has survival, have to eat, drink. 

 

I had a lot of fun when I was playing with a friend to be honest. Even when I played solo. 

 

There's also that recent one called Stranded I believe? Ported over from PC. Never played it myself tho, so can't say good or bad.

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