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Roland

Looting Progression Plan

Loot Progression  

144 members have voted

  1. 1. How do you feel about the current loot progression within the context of the overall plan?

    • I hate it and want it reverted to the way it was in A18. The future sounds like it sucks.
      26
    • I dislike it but can live with it until it is fully developed. The future has some potential.
      44
    • I don't care about this. It was fine before and it is fine now and it will probably be fine in the future.
      12
    • I like it. I really like the direction this is going and the future sounds even better.
      51
    • I love it and want it to stay just like this. The future better not mess up what we have right now.
      2
    • Other reaction. Explain below.
      9


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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Kalen said:

The real problem is that currently, items are infinitely repairable so that when you find an item you get to keep it forever.   This becomes an issue when you consider opening up early game looting to have the potential to drop higher tier items.  Since modding in a degradation system seems pretty difficult, eliminating repairs entirely might be the best solution.  

 

Personally, I think, if you do that, you also have to increase the durability of items to compensate.   Figuring out how long an item should last will probably be a source of contention as that is entirely based on peoples' opinions on what "feels right".   I would think an item lasting roughly 2-3 days of continuous use per quality level would be a good starting point.

I agree with your assessment.  I have an overhaul mod on my backlog of things to do and one of the things I want is limited repairing/durability so items have more value and it was worth keeping duplicates.

4 minutes ago, Tmodloader said:

If only there was a way to exchange items. Maybe for coins or something so you can build up progress for that quality 1 pistol.  :classic_laugh:

Im sure it would be relatively easy to create a custom quest where the player has to gather x amount of an item then turn it in for y at the nearest trader.

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)

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49 minutes ago, Tmodloader said:

I don't like that idea and I'm sure that would mess with anyone that tends to keep all their consumables till the end of RPGs :classic_laugh:
If something extreme like that was ever implimented I'd rather it be another option and certainly not mandatory.

I was talking about a modding possibility and not suggesting something for the base game.

33 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

I agree with your assessment.  I have an overhaul mod on my backlog of things to do and one of the things I want is limited repairing/durability so items have more value and it was worth keeping duplicates.

Not just that but think about the diamond tip mod that increases durability. Who the hell cares about that mod with forever tools?

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Posted (edited)

One random question with current progression. How rare are forges? I've found bellows and anvils before I've ever seen a forge or forge schematic. It is like the game begs that you take that intellect perk.

Edited by Tmodloader (see edit history)

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36 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

I agree with your assessment.  I have an overhaul mod on my backlog of things to do and one of the things I want is limited repairing/durability so items have more value and it was worth keeping duplicates.

Here is an idea. Leave the repair kits for vehicles but make the repair item needed for an item a duplicate of that item. In other words you are combining the best parts of two duplicate weapons to add some longevity to what you have. That would add to the value of getting duplicate items and also add to the choices for what to do with things you find. Let's say you have a yellow shotgun and you find an orange shotgun.

 

Do you sell it?

Do you use it to repair your yellow shotgun?

Do you scrap it for parts for when you can craft a Green shotgun?

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Roland said:

Here is an idea. Leave the repair kits for vehicles but make the repair item needed for an item a duplicate of that item. In other words you are combining the best parts of two duplicate weapons to add some longevity to what you have. That would add to the value of getting duplicate items and also add to the choices for what to do with things you find. Let's say you have a yellow shotgun and you find an orange shotgun.

 

Do you sell it?

Do you use it to repair your yellow shotgun?

Do you scrap it for parts for when you can craft a Green shotgun?

Isn't that like the old workstation combine feature of the past?  Not saying its bad, just more difficult to xml mod.

 

Edit: prob easier to use parts as the repair consumable. (E.g. shotgun parts to repair shotguns, pistol/smg parts to repair pistols/smgs.)

 

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

Isn't that like the old workstation combine feature of the past?  Not saying its bad, just more difficult to xml mod.

It would just be out of your backpack. You would just have to put that item in as the repair ingredient. Instead of a rock, a stoneaxe. Then when you repaired your stoneaxe it would consume another one from your inventory. (I assume it wouldn't consume itself....)

 

But yeah...you'd have to go through and change each item. No mass solution that xpath could easily do. It would be tedious.

 

Edited by Roland (see edit history)

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1 minute ago, Roland said:

It would just be out of your backpack. You would just have to put that item in as the repair ingredient. Instead of a rock, a stoneaxe. Then when you repaired your stoneaxe it would consume another one from your inventory. (I assume it wouldn't consume itself....)

 

Would have to test, the problem is what happens when you have multiple of a weapon with differing qualities.  Potential of using the wrong one for repairs which leads to frustrated player.

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You can enter the value "false" in as the repair ingredient and then that blocks the function. I tested that last night. The degradation per use is set to 1 on all items as well and if that can take a decimal value then it would be pretty easy I think to use xpath to replace all instances of repair ingredients with "false" and all degradation per use values with 0.5. I did not test the degradation per use property.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

prob easier to use parts as the repair consumable. (E.g. shotgun parts to repair shotguns, pistol/smg parts to repair pistols/smgs.)

I think I like this better than using duplicate items.   Items without parts either leave as is or make unrepairable.  Since they're primitive items, I don't think its a huge problem either way.

 

Can you set the number of parts needed based on the items QL?

Edited by Kalen (see edit history)

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I think the poll results speak for themself.

If we were to narrow this down to a simple; I like it, I don't like it, and I don't care, you'd see the following:

  • I like it 33.98%
  • I don't like it 50.48%
  • I don't care 15.54%

A change as drastic as this should either be polled, re-rolled or quickly and effectively adjusted with results such as these.

Those who are familiar with the current OSRS Dev Poll system would see that anything that the community didn't vote 70% or higher on, would not be introduced into the game. That's not to say that TFP should copy that system, but it's just a comparison.

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17 hours ago, Worrun said:

I think the poll results speak for themself.

If we were to narrow this down to a simple; I like it, I don't like it, and I don't care, you'd see the following:

  • I like it 33.98%
  • I don't like it 50.48%
  • I don't care 15.54%

A change as drastic as this should either be polled, re-rolled or quickly and effectively adjusted with results such as these.

Those who are familiar with the current OSRS Dev Poll system would see that anything that the community didn't vote 70% or higher on, would not be introduced into the game. That's not to say that TFP should copy that system, but it's just a comparison.

All the people who like it are playing it and didn't come to participate in the poll.

 

Kidding aside...the devs have better tools for analyzing player preferences. A poll such as this should not be used to kneejerk and revert their first step in their plan. There is another way to divide up the poll by the way... 

 

unwilling to play it as is for now: 22%

willing to play it as is for now: 71%

unknown: 7%

 

Some who chose "other" said they won't play it as is and others said they would even though they don't like it. But even if we give you those we can see that 70-ish% are flexible enough and have reasonable Early Access expectations enough to roll with the punches and see where this goes. Even some of the 22-29% are going to be willing to install a mod and keep playing A19. I bet the actual percent of players who will walk away from the game is pretty low and of those the percent who will never come back to check it out and see at A20 is even lower.

 

Devs are safe to proceed. We hit a 35000 player peak this weekend which is the second weekend after stable hit so lots of people are playing and this change hasn't hurt the game long term. Yes, some or many of those numbers could be people who modded it away but the important thing is they are still playing. I won't say that the 35000 number means everyone likes all of A19 but I will say that plenty of people are willing to keep playing the game even if that means they need to make some modification for themselve to be able to do so and since TFP has enabled such modding as part of their strategy it all counts for people enjoying some version of the game.

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@meganoth As expected, Roland's deviousness knows no limits... 😛

On 8/25/2020 at 11:59 PM, meganoth said:

But notice that in the first example they expect only yes or no as an answer, which makes the answer a useless combination of the four possible answers to the question.

Would they allow as answers all 4 permutations "yes and yes", "yes and no", "no and yes" and "no and no" the double-barrel would not exist anymore.

On 8/26/2020 at 12:58 AM, RestInPieces said:

The reason I considered this a double-barreled poll is that I didn't consider the choices as permutations of all possible answers.

...

Even though the future as described is fine, I can't "live with it" in the sense that this phrase usually implies compliance and, as the OP says, it has killed my interest in the game. Might be nitpicking over that one, but that is the reason I expressed my distaste about the poll.

9 hours ago, Roland said:

There is another way to divide up the poll by the way... 

 

unwilling to play it as is for now: 22%

willing to play it as is for now: 71%

unknown: 7%

 

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I am enjoying A19 and the changes in it. 

 

I also don't mind the new loot system but instead of lots of primitive stuff in containers it would be. Good to find some primitive stuff, some ammo and some weapons parts so if you wanted to out points in to crafting you could make decent weapons.

 

I don't see the point of a low tier primitive weapons series being added which uses proper weapons ammo. Part of the fun of week one for me is managing with a crappy wooden club, a blunderbuss or two, a bow and that level 1 axe/pick/wrench I found. 

 

It's nice to have a challenge early game and also occasionally to find something cool. Finding ways to  tool up with guns from day 1 isnt necessary for me. Gun parts and ammo would be fine

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(others..)

In my opinion its better to loot lots of junk to make items that we need.

Tier 1 junk items to make Tier 1 stuff

Create Tier 2 items buy combining some Tier 1 junks

and so on...

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On 8/31/2020 at 9:47 AM, Roland said:

Devs are safe to proceed. We hit a 35000 player peak this weekend which is the second weekend after stable hit so lots of people are playing and this change hasn't hurt the game long term. Yes, some or many of those numbers could be people who modded it away but the important thing is they are still playing. I won't say that the 35000 number means everyone likes all of A19 but I will say that plenty of people are willing to keep playing the game even if that means they need to make some modification for themselve to be able to do so and since TFP has enabled such modding as part of their strategy it all counts for people enjoying some version of the game.

Not this argument again Roland... you nailed it, it's literally the second weekend after stable hit. Of course people are gonna play - it takes some time to realise you don't like where the loot progression is at. And even then, most people don't look to comment on a subject they like/dislike; they deal with it or stop playing. Regarding people modding or not... what does that have to do with the initial question of whether this loot progression is better than A18's counterpart ? I could just aswell tell you this 35K player peak is due to covid lockdowns giving everyone more time to play, it has nothing to do with a factual assesment of the current state of looting.

 

What's the point of this poll if you twist the numbers any way that suits you and sacrifice it on the "35K players peak" hostel anyway ? This poll may or may not be an accurate representation of the feel of the playerbase as a whole, as with all polls, but the results are there : there are more people that chose "hate or dislike" than people who chose "like". I'm trying not to beat a dead horse though but making a poll and disregarding an unpleasant result by invoking other metrics feels like an argument of authority if anything. 

 

Slightly offtopic question but when is the A20 dev diary coming ? It would be easier for the forums to think ahead if there was a proper place to discuss what's coming soon, rather than continuously reflecting on what we have now...

Edited by beHypE (see edit history)
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32 minutes ago, beHypE said:

Slightly offtopic question but when is the A20 dev diary coming ? It would be easier for the forums to think ahead if there was a proper place to discuss what's coming soon, rather than continuously reflecting on what we have now...

Usually when the dev diary starts up, there is this awkward moment where Madmole wants everybody to stay on topic, but we don't even know enough about the topic to stay on it.

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On 8/30/2020 at 6:41 AM, Worrun said:

I think the poll results speak for themself.

If we were to narrow this down to a simple; I like it, I don't like it, and I don't care, you'd see the following:

  • I like it 33.98%
  • I don't like it 50.48%
  • I don't care 15.54%

A change as drastic as this should either be polled, re-rolled or quickly and effectively adjusted with results such as these.

Those who are familiar with the current OSRS Dev Poll system would see that anything that the community didn't vote 70% or higher on, would not be introduced into the game. That's not to say that TFP should copy that system, but it's just a comparison.

I strongly disagree. You can not make any conclusions based on this poll. The sample size is way too small and too biased towards those visiting the game forum. It's a fun exercise but to use this poll to justify your position is folly.

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1 hour ago, beHypE said:

Not this argument again Roland... you nailed it, it's literally the second weekend after stable hit. Of course people are gonna play - it takes some time to realise you don't like where the loot progression is at. And even then, most people don't look to comment on a subject they like/dislike; they deal with it or stop playing. Regarding people modding or not... what does that have to do with the initial question of whether this loot progression is better than A18's counterpart ? I could just aswell tell you this 35K player peak is due to covid lockdowns giving everyone more time to play, it has nothing to do with a factual assesment of the current state of looting.

 

What's the point of this poll if you twist the numbers any way that suits you and sacrifice it on the "35K players peak" hostel anyway ? This poll may or may not be an accurate representation of the feel of the playerbase as a whole, as with all polls, but the results are there : there are more people that chose "hate or dislike" than people who chose "like". I'm trying not to beat a dead horse though but making a poll and disregarding an unpleasant result by invoking other metrics feels like an argument of authority if anything. 

 

Slightly offtopic question but when is the A20 dev diary coming ? It would be easier for the forums to think ahead if there was a proper place to discuss what's coming soon, rather than continuously reflecting on what we have now...

I think its a fair response to Worruns post.  Just another point of view on the polls result so far.

 

Personally, I think its a minor inconvenience and most probably wouldn't notice or care especially when compared to other concerns.  Especially since its not the final form and is easily modded.

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1 hour ago, beHypE said:

Not this argument again Roland... you nailed it, it's literally the second weekend after stable hit. Of course people are gonna play - it takes some time to realise you don't like where the loot progression is at. And even then, most people don't look to comment on a subject they like/dislike; they deal with it or stop playing. Regarding people modding or not... what does that have to do with the initial question of whether this loot progression is better than A18's counterpart ? I could just aswell tell you this 35K player peak is due to covid lockdowns giving everyone more time to play, it has nothing to do with a factual assesment of the current state of looting.

 

What's the point of this poll if you twist the numbers any way that suits you and sacrifice it on the "35K players peak" hostel anyway ? This poll may or may not be an accurate representation of the feel of the playerbase as a whole, as with all polls, but the results are there : there are more people that chose "hate or dislike" than people who chose "like". I'm trying not to beat a dead horse though but making a poll and disregarding an unpleasant result by invoking other metrics feels like an argument of authority if anything. 

 

Slightly offtopic question but when is the A20 dev diary coming ? It would be easier for the forums to think ahead if there was a proper place to discuss what's coming soon, rather than continuously reflecting on what we have now...

Relax beHypE. This poll was something I created for my own personal curiosity and also as a means to get the information that the current progression is not the final version as so many seemed to be thinking by the way they were posting. I wasn't twisting numbers to make some sort of design decisions. I was simply showing another way to look at the responses. One way is by likes and dislikes and another is by willingness and unwillingness to be flexible with the development process. I acknowledge the dislike for the loot progression. I'm not denying that. 

 

Deep breaths.

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I voted 3, which is "I don't care about this. It was fine before and it is fine now and it will probably be fine in the future" option.  The stone age is not as bad as it sounds, since stone tools are perfectly good at what they do. Even at level 57, my main tool is a modded QL 6 stone axe. My last/current play is with trader unknown/out of reach.

I put in one for later game. But, it's about 9km away, so practicly a no trader run.

 

Perhaps there shouldn't be a trader at start, just overrun trader poi's one could clear to make a trader move in.

 

Loot progression, well, as long as i don't play with a trader there might be some progression.  If i was to play with a trader, aye, the current loot progression makes little sense.

Couple screenies from a test start, as many options set to white (vanilla) as i could. Taken at day one, just after i finished starter quests.


 

Spoiler

 

Using spoiler since images are a bit big. I hope the spoiler tag works.

20200901171734_1.thumb.jpg.7c0e798382069511a4c3dd02e31b6f36.jpg

20200901171411_1.thumb.jpg.c96dd88a235e2275ada8e5bc83ef2583.jpg20200901171447_1.thumb.jpg.428f5ec16586764a8d38bf9ac75d1329.jpg

End spoiler.

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Kattla said:

Perhaps there shouldn't be a trader at start, just overrun trader poi's one could clear to make a trader move in.

I Love This Post - JustPost: Virtually entertaining

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3 hours ago, Roland said:

Relax beHypE. This poll was something I created for my own personal curiosity and also as a means to get the information that the current progression is not the final version as so many seemed to be thinking by the way they were posting. I wasn't twisting numbers to make some sort of design decisions. I was simply showing another way to look at the responses. One way is by likes and dislikes and another is by willingness and unwillingness to be flexible with the development process. I acknowledge the dislike for the loot progression. I'm not denying that. 

 

Deep breaths.

Ha sorry if my tone seemed more rude than it was supposed to, just read it imagining a deep and relaxed voice 😅 

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I was torn between "i love it..." and "i like it, but the future sounds better", but ultimately chose to love it because, while the future does sound promising I'm afraid it will interfere with the nice balance they've currently created.  Right now there is real loot progression.  I can get high quality stone tools  and padded/scrap armor, etc. before they've become obsolete by a more advanced tech level.  Then even when you do start getting the higher tech loot you have to make choices like "do i want my lower tier armor with full mods or this higher tier piece with room for only one or two mods?"  Does it extend the stone age? sure, a little bit.  Can it be disheartening to find dozens of useless stone tools from end-of-level chests and crates? yeah, but all things considered, it doesn't last for that long, but the tradeoff is real loot progression and real choices about gear rather than jumping several tiers.  Plus in the current version even if i looted a steel pickaxe on day one i probably would still use the stone axe because I'd only get about 2 swings before i was out of stamina with the pickaxe.  Also the stone axe is better than it was in almost any other alpha and the early game less tedious because of it.  

 

I can understand the plight of those who think this is such a terrible development; the ultra scavengers for whom the rush of finding that game changing treasure is the main appeal of the game.  It's too bad there's not an startup option for loot quality like there is for loot abundance.  That could satisfy everyone (on this issue at least).

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Crux of my issue with this -

 

Doing POIs early game is literally screwing myself. They're worthless. Even with a small gamestage boost every single crate I open before at least gamestage 50 is an act of stupidity as unless I have 100% neglected any crafting related skills completely, including upgrading my stone axe, I can probably make as good or better a tool. It would only make sense if I have not even spent 1 or 2 points on feats that let me craft better than trash tier tools or forge iron. Which is unlikely.

 

I get wanting to steeply skew odds based on gamestage but if there's 0 probability of me getting, say, a level 3 pump shotgun before day 21 when that would be significant instead of after day 21 when it's just some shotgun parts with a few seconds timer then I need to focus early game 100% on just whacking on iron/coal/nitrite veins, boring as that is.

 

If working through a POI is only useful for the XP and materials I'll get stripping it down the the ground and not the crates/surprises I can find it loses a LOT of allure.

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On 8/31/2020 at 9:47 AM, Roland said:

Devs are safe to proceed. We hit a 35000 player peak this weekend which is the second weekend after stable hit so lots of people are playing and this change hasn't hurt the game long term. Yes, some or many of those numbers could be people who modded it away but the important thing is they are still playing. I won't say that the 35000 number means everyone likes all of A19 but I will say that plenty of people are willing to keep playing the game even if that means they need to make some modification for themselve to be able to do so and since TFP has enabled such modding as part of their strategy it all counts for people enjoying some version of the game.

And how many of those players modded out parts of the game or are running A18 or earlier?

 

Those player numbers only show how many players are in the game, it doesnt show whenever they like this specific alpha or not neither does it show if the player just modded the game back into an A16 experience or such.

 

July was our best month with almost 39K people, August managed to lost 14% of the playerbase already and who knows what will september bring. You also need to consider that players might dislike the current loot but love the new zombies and lighting, or like the loot and hate the food system and soo on.

 

 

Also just to get some generic view on how many people hate the loot system from the playerbase and also mod their games heres the full random loot's nexus page:

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/1004?tab=description

 

This mod is currently at 910 unique downloads, this is the amount of people who hate the looting, mod their game and use this specific loot mod.

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