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Looting Progression Plan


Roland
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Loot Progression  

189 members have voted

  1. 1. How do you feel about the current loot progression within the context of the overall plan?

    • I hate it and want it reverted to the way it was in A18. The future sounds like it sucks.
      34
    • I dislike it but can live with it until it is fully developed. The future has some potential.
      60
    • I don't care about this. It was fine before and it is fine now and it will probably be fine in the future.
      14
    • I like it. I really like the direction this is going and the future sounds even better.
      68
    • I love it and want it to stay just like this. The future better not mess up what we have right now.
      2
    • Other reaction. Explain below.
      11


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11 hours ago, meganoth said:

And still 7D2D is linear enough that a pistol or AK on day 1 removes any potential danger whatsoever, immediately. No tension anymore, you can be absolutely sure that if you get into situation that might be hairy you just switch from wooden club to AK and those 3 zombies zooming in on you are gone after a salvo.

 

And that is well within the genre of 7D2D. There have to be compromises. I actually don't mind if there are chances for high-level mods, seldom recipes or even gyrocopter parts to be found at level 1.  But not guns, definitely no guns.

 

 

Well yes, that is a problem and one that always has been. But locking out the loot because the game can't offer a decent challenge in between normal zeds and feral zeds gotta be one of the worst argument you could come up with honestly... Also, ferals don't appear before GS 66 iirc, so your point is moot because that's at least 15 hours of game play during which you most definitely found a gun and destroyed all the zombies on the way. Different topic but I'd rather have them nerf the abundance and easiness to craft ammunition, rather than filling my chests with bullets from the get go but not offering me any guns to use them. 

 

I understand finding a day 1 pistol kinda ruins the first 2 or 3 'struggle days', and those are fun. The problem lies in the fact it doesn't ramp up fast enough after that. Playing the stone age game for 15 hours gets old quick. And the problem is much broader than guns, schematics / vehicles being hard locked out of the loot tables are probably a bigger problem for me to be honest. 

Edited by beHypE (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, beHypE said:

Well yes, that is a problem and one that always has been.

I haven't played A15/A16 for a long time so I'm not sure about the actual durations, but in terms of loot drops they were better than A18. In those alphas you got a pistol on average on day 4 maybe(?), but an AK on day 20(?). At that time the AK was balanced differently, but as an Oh-@%$*#! weapon an AK still is a notch above the pistol. But nevermind, in A15 it still took some time to get your first gun, surely not more than a week, but more than A18.

 

2 hours ago, beHypE said:

But locking out the loot because the game can't offer a decent challenge in between normal zeds and feral zeds gotta be

one of the worst argument you could come up with honestly...

Turning this simply around: But offering no decent challenge just because people want everything at once gotta be one of the worst arguments you could come up with honestly.

 

Sorry, but almost 99% of all games do exactly this and function very well this way.

I used only a bow at the start of the game from A15 to A17 and did not see it as strange and neither did you probably. Just because you were given unbalanced loot from the start in just one alpha you take it for granted now.

 

2 hours ago, beHypE said:

 

Also, ferals don't appear before GS 66 iirc, so your point is moot because that's at least 15 hours of game play during which you most definitely found a gun and destroyed all the zombies on the way. Different topic but I'd rather have them nerf the abundance and easiness to craft ammunition, rather than filling my chests with bullets from the get go but not offering me any guns to use them.

I think Roland explained it quite well: The game has a power curve where you are the underpowered underdog at start and feel how you get stronger until you practically own basic zombies (even if using melee they just become cannon fodder). Then the new challenge of ferals arrives and you have to work your way up to godhod again, then the same for glowies and finally boss zombies.

The power curve between you and the zombies is not as smooth as in most other games, that is sometimes a disadvantage but like a movie switches between tension and relief it can also be an advantage.

 

2 hours ago, beHypE said:

 

I understand finding a day 1 pistol kinda ruins the first 2 or 3 'struggle days', and those are fun. The problem lies in the fact it doesn't ramp up fast enough after that. Playing the stone age game for 15 hours gets old quick. And the problem is much broader than guns, schematics / vehicles being hard locked out of the loot tables are probably a bigger problem for me to be honest. 

As I said, I have no problems with mods, schematics and vehicle parts having more range in the loot tables.

 

There is a group of players that likes the early game and there is a group of players that does not like it. Many in the former group probably are not averse to the survival genre and many in the latter group probably don't like that genre very much and play the game for the other genres built in. Not saying everyone is, but the game is big on survival at the start and practically that goes away by mid-game.

15 hours early-game, 15 hours mid-game, 15 to whatever you like hours end-game, what about that sounds wrong to you?

 

But a big problem is also that players often know exact details of loot tables no other game normally tells you. You know exactly what the gamestage means, you know what you can get or not get at any gamestage, this view behind the curtain is destroying the fun for a lot of players. I play the game and never look at the gamestage I have, never think about the loot table I have when I open a specific container and consequently I have fun with the game.

 

I also don't expect every container to give me something valuable, it is okay if only every third or fourth container contains anything or anything valuable, but some players seem to get an expectation from MMOs of instant gratification. Now before someone protests, A19 isn't ideal. Adjustments to safes loot tables and adjustments like occasionally finding weapon parts are very sensible suggestions and should be eventually in the game, but my enjoyment of the game does not depend on it.

 

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2 hours ago, meganoth said:

Turning this simply around: But offering no decent challenge just because people want everything at once gotta be one of the worst arguments you could come up with honestly.

At this juncture, I'm gonna ask a list of all the people who have said they wanted everything at once. This statement is starting to get old.

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21 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

At this juncture, I'm gonna ask a list of all the people who have said they wanted everything at once. This statement is starting to get old.

Not going to name names 'cause I don't want to drag others into this fight, but here's from just this thread:

Quote

I think an RNG system for all tiers and quality levels that stays the same regardless of player level is way more exciting as there is always a chance you will find something better than what you've got.

Quote

I think that gamestage should be ignored for looting. For all loot there is a chance to get the higher level tiers albeit that chance is very very small. However the chance goes up when you loot specialty/treasure chests and when you use the looting skills/items. So there's a very very very low chance that you get a level 4 pickaxe on day 1.

 

Outside of this thread, a certain poster has been pushing this mod wherever he can.
image.png.5c8c61dcdecc79324cd519ceec8fc739.png

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)
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14 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Not going to name names 'cause I don't want to drag others into this fight, but here's from just this thread:

 

Outside of this thread, a certain poster has been pushing this mod wherever he can.
image.png.5c8c61dcdecc79324cd519ceec8fc739.png

I believe there's a misconception, then. There's a difference between people who just want to have a chance of finding every item in loot, even if the good stuff is very rare, and people who want everything at once. Heck, the second guy you quoted even said "albeit that chance is very very small." and "So there's a very very very low chance that you get a level 4 pickaxe on day 1.", though of course, you didn't highlight those parts.

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

I believe there's a misconception, then. There's a difference between people who just want to have a chance of finding every item in loot, even if the good stuff is very rare, and people who want everything at once. Heck, the second guy you quoted even said "albeit that chance is very very small." and "So there's a very very very low chance that you get a level 4 pickaxe on day 1.", though of course, you didn't highlight those parts.

I see. In that case, I agree. Nobody has been pressing for having all in-game items show up in the first loot container they open. Or even across all loot containers in a single day or week! I can't see that as a reasonable interpretation of Meganoth's quote, either since, it seems clear to me, the argument is between

 

  • well-defined 'ages' of looting where higher-tier objects simply are not available at low gamestages, i.e. where A19 is now

and

  • all-tiers, all-qualities available - not guaranteed, but available - from Day 1

 

I took Meganoth's comment to refer to the 2nd bullet. But we can disagree on that, sorry for interrupting.

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9 minutes ago, Boidster said:

I can't see that as a reasonable interpretation of Meganoth's quote, either

"Turning this simply around: But offering no decent challenge just because people want everything at once gotta be one of the worst arguments you could come up with honestly."

 

It might not be what he meant, but it is certainly a reasonable interpretation of what he said.

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1 hour ago, Xtrakicking said:

I believe there's a misconception, then. There's a difference between people who just want to have a chance of finding every item in loot, even if the good stuff is very rare, and people who want everything at once. Heck, the second guy you quoted even said "albeit that chance is very very small." and "So there's a very very very low chance that you get a level 4 pickaxe on day 1.", though of course, you didn't highlight those parts.

 

 

Isn't there a very very very low chance for that right now? Is the probability zero for a level 4 pickaxe? I'm really asking anyone who has studied the loot table probabilities.

 

At any rate, I know that the people complaining aren't doing it simply because they want to have a level 4 pickaxe. You can still go to the trader and get higher tier stuff if you want to have those items. So if just wanting to own it was the whole concern, people wouldn't need to complain because there is still the trader. It is very much an issue of feeling disappointed about what is in the boxes that are opened-- and that is very subjective which is why some are bothered and others are not. It's also a lot to do with what you enjoy playing with. I like playing the game with spears, bows, clubs, and blundies. So I am having fun the whole time. Others don't enjoy using those weapons so to them it feels like a grind because they are just working as fast as they can to get through the required gamestages for when the things they enjoy playing with start emerging.

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9 minutes ago, Roland said:

Isn't there a very very very low chance for that right now? Is the probability zero for a level 4 pickaxe? I'm really asking anyone who has studied the loot table probabilities.

 

At any rate, I know that the people complaining aren't doing it simply because they want to have a level 4 pickaxe. You can still go to the trader and get higher tier stuff if you want to have those items. So if just wanting to own it was the whole concern, people wouldn't need to complain because there is still the trader. It is very much an issue of feeling disappointed about what is in the boxes that are opened-- and that is very subjective which is why some are bothered and others are not. It's also a lot to do with what you enjoy playing with. I like playing the game with spears, bows, clubs, and blundies. So I am having fun the whole time. Others don't enjoy using those weapons so to them it feels like a grind because they are just working as fast as they can to get through the required gamestages for when the things they enjoy playing with start emerging.

Maybe the problem is also the amount of certain containers in the world. It's reasonable to be disappointed if you only get stone axes upon opening a gun safe, but on the other hand, if we consider the amount of safes a player can find in an average map, if every gun safe had guns, players would be swimming in them too soon.

 

The thing that concerns me about the loot plan in the OP is that, even when it's done, there will still be lots of gun safes and gun crates in easy early gamestage POIs that will be filled with primitive gear, and those will probably still be disappointing to loot.

 

I think that on top of the future loot plan, there probably should be less gun safes, gun store crates and the like, and the ones that exist to be found in tougher POI's. If we consider that the plan for the future is to put the good stuff in the dangerous places, it could solve both the immersion and frustration issue and the balance and progression issue.

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57 minutes ago, Roland said:

Isn't there a very very very low chance for that right now? Is the probability zero for a level 4 pickaxe? I'm really asking anyone who has studied the loot table probabilities.

Probability is zero until a certain gamestage at each tier (for example until GS10 for finding T1 loot). At least that is how I'm reading it.

 

<lootprobtemplate name="ProbT1">
        <loot level="0,9" prob="0"/>
        <loot level="10,12" prob="0.04"/>

<lootprobtemplate name="ProbT2">
        <loot level="0,48" prob="0"/>
        <loot level="49,50" prob="0.04"/>

<lootprobtemplate name="ProbT3">
        <loot level="0,88" prob="0"/>
        <loot level="89,91" prob="0.04"/>

 

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)
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8 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Probably is zero until a certain gamestage at each tier (for example until GS10 for finding T1 loot). At least that is how I'm reading it.

 


<lootprobtemplate name="ProbT1">
        <loot level="0,9" prob="0"/>
        <loot level="10,12" prob="0.04"/>

<lootprobtemplate name="ProbT2">
        <loot level="0,48" prob="0"/>
        <loot level="49,50" prob="0.04"/>

<lootprobtemplate name="ProbT3">
        <loot level="0,88" prob="0"/>
        <loot level="89,91" prob="0.04"/>

 

So this is great news. It means that the system is designed to be modifiable either by the developers as they balance and tune or by modders as they search for their own preferences. I think it would be enjoyable to change some of those probabilities and see how it affects the game. Even adding more granular loot levels could be fun to see the results. Interesting that the highest probability is 4% which was the same probability as vomiting which happened all the time to everyone. Something magical about 4% in this game....

 

At any rate, I would love for a thread to be started with settings people have tried and the result- much like a map seed thread. I think that could give people relief as they wait for the next iteration from TFP more than anything else and being a hot topic like it is might spark interest in some light modding among members of the community who have never tried it before.

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6 minutes ago, Roland said:

So this is great news. It means that the system is designed to be modifiable either by the developers as they balance and tune or by modders as they search for their own preferences. I think it would be enjoyable to change some of those probabilities and see how it affects the game. Even adding more granular loot levels could be fun to see the results. Interesting that the highest probability is 4% which was the same probability as vomiting which happened all the time to everyone. Something magical about 4% in this game....

 

At any rate, I would love for a thread to be started with settings people have tried and the result- much like a map seed thread. I think that could give people relief as they wait for the next iteration from TFP more than anything else and being a hot topic like it is might spark interest in some light modding among members of the community who have never tried it before.

I wonder if thats really how it works.... the XML is a little odd to me.  For example, looking at T3, it seems like your chance of getting one steadily increases (which makes sense) until it gets to 100% at GS185-187.   Then it starts decreasing.   So the higher you get, the less chance of finding a T3.... that doesn't make sense to me.  There has to be more to it that I'm just not seeing.

 

        <loot level="176,177" prob="0.88"/>
        <loot level="178,180" prob="0.91"/>
        <loot level="181,182" prob="0.94"/>
        <loot level="183,184" prob="0.97"/>
        <loot level="185,187" prob="1"/>
        <loot level="188,189" prob="0.78"/>
        <loot level="190,192" prob="0.8"/>
        <loot level="193,194" prob="0.83"/>

 

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To walk through a specific example (possibly incorrectly, but I do my best!): the Shotgun Messiah crate. Starts with this block in blocks.xml (it actually starts with the sealed crate block, which degrades to this 'loot container' block after you beat on it):

<block name="cntLootCrateShotgunMessiah">
	<property name="Extends" value="cntGarageStorage"/>
	<property name="LootList" value="50"/>
</block>

The LootList value points to this from loot.xml:

<!-- shotgun Messiah -->
<lootcontainer id="50" count="1,3" size="6,4" sound_open="UseActions/open_cardboard" sound_close="UseActions/close_cardboard" loot_quality_template="qualBaseTemplate">
    <item group="groupAmmoRegular" prob=".3"/>
    <item group="groupWeaponsAllScaled" prob=".4"/>
    <item group="groupModAllScaled" prob=".1"/>
    <item group="weaponParts" count="1,5" prob=".15"/>
    <item group="groupArmorScaled" prob="0.2"/>
    <item name="resourceRepairKit" count="2,3" prob="0.1"/>
</lootcontainer>

Diving into groupWeaponsAllScaled (also in loot.xml) we get:

<lootgroup name="groupWeaponsAllScaled">
    <item group="groupWeaponsMeleeScaled"/>
    <item group="groupWeaponsRangedScaled"/>
</lootgroup>

And deeper into the rabbit hole, groupWeaponsMeleeScaled, where it gets more interesting:

<lootgroup name="groupWeaponsMeleeScaled">
    <item group="groupWeaponsT0_Melee" loot_prob_template="ProbT0"/>
    <item group="groupWeaponsT1_Melee" loot_prob_template="ProbT1"/>
    <item group="groupWeapons_MeleeParts" loot_prob_template="ProbT1"/>
    <item group="groupWeaponsT2_Melee" loot_prob_template="ProbT2"/>
</lootgroup>

So the way I interpret this is that, like any loot group, any <item> in the group has a probability - usually just a number like in the <lootcontainer> above. In this case the game assigns a full probability template, based on GS, to each item. So for Tier-0 Melee ("groupWeaponsT0_Melee"), we find this:

<lootprobtemplate name="ProbT0">
        <loot level="0,2" prob="0.16"/>
        <loot level="3,4" prob="0.2"/>
        <loot level="5,7" prob="0.3"/>
        <loot level="8,9" prob="0.37"/>
        <loot level="10,12" prob="0.49"/>
        <loot level="13,14" prob="0.58"/>
        <loot level="15,16" prob="0.72"/>
        <loot level="17,19" prob="0.83"/>
        <loot level="20,21" prob="1"/>
        ...
        <loot level="46,999999" prob="0"/>
<lootprobtemplate>

This can't be considered by itself, however since each <item> entry from the "groupWeaponsMeleeScaled" has a probability. So let's also look at Tier-1 Melee ("groupWeaponsT1_Melee"), which is also in the lootgroup:

<lootprobtemplate name="ProbT1">
        <loot level="0,9" prob="0"/>
        <loot level="10,12" prob="0.04"/>
        <loot level="13,14" prob="0.04"/>
        <loot level="15,16" prob="0.05"/>
        <loot level="17,19" prob="0.05"/>
        <loot level="20,21" prob="0.06"/>
        <loot level="22,24" prob="0.1"/>

So taking these two tables together with some example GS:

 

GS Prob of T0 Melee raw/actual Prob of T1 Melee raw/actual
1 0.16 / 1.0 (i.e. 100% chance) 0.0 / 0.0 (no chance)
10 0.49 / 0.924 (92%) 0.04 / 0.076 (8%)
20 1.0 / 0.943 (94%) 0.06 / 0.067 (7%)

 

The "actual" numbers there (which are not the true actual numbers because the lootgroup has 2 other <item> entriesI didn't include) have to do with how 7D2D computes final probability among a set of possibilities. As far as I understand it, all individual probabilities are added up (may not add up to exactly 1.0!) and then each item's probability is divided by the total to result in an "actual" probability. I think they recently have made some adjustments to try to get more multi-item groups to add up cleanly to 1.0 so it's easier to interpret.

16 minutes ago, Kalen said:

I wonder if thats really how it works.... the XML is a little odd to me.  For example, looking at T3, it seems like your chance of getting one steadily increases (which makes sense) until it gets to 100% at GS185-187.   Then it starts decreasing.   So the higher you get, the less chance of finding a T3.... that doesn't make sense to me.  There has to be more to it that I'm just not seeing.

Yeah, it's because of the probability calcs. To take a very simple fake example:

 

<lootgroup>

  <item name="PUPPY!" prob="1.0">

  <item name="KITTY!" prob="1.0">

  <item name="ALLIGATOR!" prob="1.0">

<lootgroup>

 

That lootgroup would not be guranteed to provide you a puppy, a kitty, and an alligator (as fun as that might sound). What the game does is adds up all the probabilities and then divides each item by the total. Total is 3.0, each item is 1.0, so actually each item has a 1/3 chance of being the looted item. Note that 1.0 is the default probability so any <item> entry which doesn't have a probability assigned counts as 1.0 (I think).

 

It gets much more complex when probability tables are involved, but generally just know that the numbers you see increasing to 1.0 and then decreasing are combined with other numbers from other probability distributions (scaled differently across the gamestages) which has the net result, in general, of higher-tier items being more common as gamestage increases. Even though the raw number you see in the probability table might be decreasing.

 

It's weird.

 

Here's one of their spreadsheets where they work all this out, for people who enjoy mathematical self-abuse: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15TQ_P13gKYMb75eKlzzOxoEKCMINosQJIBBPpz2MONE

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)
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14 minutes ago, Boidster said:

So taking these two tables together with some example GS:

 

GS Prob of T0 Melee raw/actual Prob of T1 Melee raw/actual
1 0.16 / 1.0 (i.e. 100% chance) 0.0 / 0.0 (no chance)
10 0.49 / 0.924 (92%) 0.04 / 0.076 (8%)
20 1.0 / 0.943 (94%) 0.06 / 0.067 (7%)

I dont think thats how it works.... in your GS 1 example, I don't think its 100% chance of a T0 because there is no T1.   I believe its still 16% chance of T0.   If it was 100%, there would be at least a T0 item in every container with this lootgroup, which is not the case.

 

14 minutes ago, Boidster said:

It gets much more complex when probability tables are involved, but generally just know that the numbers you see increasing to 1.0 and then decreasing are combined with other numbers from other probability distributions (scaled differently across the gamestages) which have the net result, in general, of higher-tier items being more common as gamestage increases. Even though the raw number you see in the probability table might be decreasing.

Yes, but they're combined with other numbers all along.... I can't see anything that adds something new at a certain GS.   If there was, then it would make a little more sense.

 

Edit:  Actually no, it wouldn't mean a T0 in every container since the lootgroup may not always pick from that table.   So you may be right.  I wish the XML.txt file was a little more descriptive for the loot.xml file

Edited by Kalen (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, Xtrakicking said:

At this juncture, I'm gonna ask a list of all the people who have said they wanted everything at once. This statement is starting to get old.

Well "locking out the loot" seems like an equally overblown assertion, I just wanted to keep the standard. I find good loot all the time. And I needed a short "catch phrase" to summarize the contrary viewpoint, don't take it too serious. The important part is that no early challenge is offered and that is at least as problematic as some people not getting their instant gratification

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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14 minutes ago, Kalen said:

I dont think thats how it works.... in your GS 1 example, I don't think its 100% chance of a T0 because there is no T1.   I believe its still 16% chance of T0.   If it was 100%, there would be at least a T0 item in every container with this lootgroup, which is not the case.

Well, I did simplify quite a bit to very quickly get down to where the GS-scaled loot probability tables are used. But to address your point, first keep in mind that all loot containers and loot groups have "the math" applied to them. So there's several layers of probabilities and RNG rolls that take place. I only showed a partial example of how two individual items in the very lowest branch of the tree would calculate. But if we go back to the top:

<!-- shotgun Messiah -->
<lootcontainer id="50" count="1,3" size="6,4" sound_open="UseActions/open_cardboard" sound_close="UseActions/close_cardboard" loot_quality_template="qualBaseTemplate">
    <item group="groupAmmoRegular" prob=".3"/>
    <item group="groupWeaponsAllScaled" prob=".4"/>
    <item group="groupModAllScaled" prob=".1"/>
    <item group="weaponParts" count="1,5" prob=".15"/>
    <item group="groupArmorScaled" prob="0.2"/>
    <item name="resourceRepairKit" count="2,3" prob="0.1"/>
</lootcontainer>

You can read this as:

  • Anywhere from 1 to 3 selections will be chosen from this list (RNG roll for 1...3); duplicates are possible (i.e. two stone axes, yay)
  • 24% chance of something from groupAmmoRegular (The Math is 0.3 / 1.25)
  • 32% chance of something from groupWeaponsAllScaled (0.4 / 1.25)
  • 8% chance of something from groupModAllScaled (0.1 / 1.25)
  • 12% chance of 1-5 items from weaponParts (0.15 / 1.25)
  • 16% chance of something from groupArmorScaled (0.2 / 1.25)
  • 8% chance of 2-3 Repair Kits (0.1 / 1.25)

You can see that those all add up to 100%. To get actual true probabilities of getting item X, you gotta dive into all of those groups to see what items are in them and what their individual probabilities are. Except for the Repair Kits - that's just a straight 8% chance to get 2 or 3 of them.

 

I'm happy to walk deeper into this if you want.

 

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)
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1 minute ago, Boidster said:

I'm happy to walk deeper into this if you want.

Its cool... that part I understand (if you saw my edit, I realized my mistake).   What I don't understand is the part when the probabilities do not add up to 100% like in your example with the T0/T1.   You're making the assumption that it just scales up to 100% which may be correct, but doesn't appear to have any documentation to support that.

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11 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Its cool... that part I understand (if you saw my edit, I realized my mistake).   What I don't understand is the part when the probabilities do not add up to 100% like in your example with the T0/T1.   You're making the assumption that it just scales up to 100% which may be correct, but doesn't appear to have any documentation to support that.

Oops, sorry I missed that. As for how the >1.0 total probabilities are handled it's a combination of "something I've somehow always known/has always worked for my modlets" (not very convincing, I know - I'm pretty sure I read it in a dev comment back in A17 or A18) and also this from the A19 patch notes:

Quote
  • Loot probability templates normalised to 1 to make them usable in more situations 

As a system, the [item prob] / [sum of all item probs] makes good sense for ease of weighting. But if they're not normalized to 1.0 then you gotta open up Calculator to figure out true probabilities, which is annoying. From their point of view, though, if they have a lootgroup of 30 items and they just want to nudge Stone Axe to be slightly more likely in gun safes (ha) then they'd have to re-normalize all 30 items back to 1.0. As it is, they can just double the prob for Stone Axe and know that they have approximately doubled its likelihood.

 

The re-normalization of all 30 has the benefit of clearly seeing what effect making Stone Axes twice as likely in gun safes is. To wit: a dozen forum threads complaining about it. 😄

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)
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2 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Oops, sorry I missed that. As for how the >1.0 total probabilities are handled it's a combination of "something I've somehow always known/has always worked for my modlets" (not very convincing, I know - I'm pretty sure I read it in a dev comment back in A17 or A18) and also this from the A19 patch notes:

As a system, the [item prob] / [sum of all item probs] makes good sense for ease of weighting. But if they're not normalized to 1.0 then you gotta open up Calculator to figure out true probabilities, which is annoying. From their point of view, though, if they have a lootgroup of 30 items and they just want to nudge Stone Axe to be slightly more likely in gun safes (ha) then they'd have to re-normalize all 30 items back to 1.0. As it is, they can just double the prob for Stone Axe and know that they have approximately doubled its likelihood.

 

The re-normalization of all 30 has the benefit of clearly seeing what effect making Stone Axes twice as likely in gun safes is. To wit: a dozen forum threads complaining about it. 😄

Cool... thanks dude!

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3 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

It's a good thing that the xml parser normalizes the probabilities. Imagine all the broken mods due to bad math.

Back in A15 (I think it was) I wrote an application that parsed the XML so I could search for specific items and see where they dropped and at what percentage.  I remember the math being a bit of a nightmare because the percentages were not normalized.

 

I think I did it so I could find flippin' calipers.

Edited by Kalen (see edit history)
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1 minute ago, Kalen said:

Back in A15 (I think it was) I wrote an application that parsed the XML so I could search for specific items and see where they dropped and at what percentage.  I remember the math being a bit of a nightmare because the percentages were not normalized.

I was confused too for a long time. There have always been groups of xml that don't add up to a 1.0 probability. I posted to ask about it and never received an answer from anybody. It just didn't make sense to me... even the vanilla game simply should not work. I tried asking about it in dev diary from time to time but never got an answer from anybody there either. I suspected that something must calculate normalized values, but I didn't know for certain until they mentioned how they redid some things with initially normalized values years later. A comment in the xml might help. An explanation post in the modding section would help too.

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2 hours ago, Roland said:

So this is great news. It means that the system is designed to be modifiable either by the developers as they balance and tune or by modders as they search for their own preferences. I think it would be enjoyable to change some of those probabilities and see how it affects the game.

This is a fun one:

 

<lootgroup name="groupBirdNest" count="1,2">
    <item name="foodEgg" prob="0.25"/>
    <item name="resourceFeather" count="1,5" prob="0.75"/>
    <item group="groupWeaponsT3_Ranged" count="2,3" prob="1" />
</lootgroup>

 

image.png.47f847e56d50cf76f131f980407d9015.png

 

See now THIS is how the loot should work in A19!

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4 minutes ago, Boidster said:

This is a fun one:

 

<lootgroup name="groupBirdNest" count="1,2">
    <item name="foodEgg" prob="0.25"/>
    <item name="resourceFeather" count="1,5" prob="0.75"/>
    <item group="groupWeaponsT3_Ranged" count="2,3" prob="1" />
</lootgroup>

 

image.png.47f847e56d50cf76f131f980407d9015.png

 

See now THIS is how the loot should work in A19!

Are you kidding?  Where are the eggs?  What a ripoff.... worst nest ever

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