Skill Tree

[thegame2417]

I was wondering ideas on the skill trees.  How exactly do you think the Fun Pimps wanted it to be used.  You have to travel far down most skill trees to get a skill you want.  I think the system is some what too spread out.  I was wondering what a developers thoughts were behind the skill distribution.  I enjoy the skills but paying the price of 7 tree points to unlock one skill in the group is somewhat extreme too me.

[Psychodabble]

I liked them at first, but I really hate them now. I would love to be able to choose my weapon independently of my skills, but I can't so...

[Daedric]

Personally I loathe the fact pretty much everything is now locked behind skills. It's one of the things I've been saddened to see grow in 7d2d, pushing more 'grind' mechanics.  Crafting, weapons, etc; no skills, no use. It just plain isn't fun, and that's an issue. Honestly, I've set my xp to 2-300% to counteract this. Problem (mostly) solved!

[Matt]

My understanding of the skill trees is to give you different playing experiences.  If there is a skill you must have every game and it's buried under 7 tree points then ya that can be tough.  I believe TFP were thinking once you played a certain way for an entire game you would be willing to play it differently the next time using different weapons and different skills you didn't use last time.  You just have to be able to let go of that one thing you think you need every time if you like the idea of having a different experience each time.

[Roland]

In the beginning of the game when enemies are easy you can use any weapon to kill them without having any skills in it. In the mid game you can use any weapon that has a high level of quality and some mods attached without any skills in it and still kill most enemies with relative ease. It is only once you reach the endgame that you will find that weapons that are maxed in quality, mods, and skill points are what is needed to effectively kill the enemies. Unskilled weapons still work but not as efficiently. 
 

The good news is that if you plan well or respec using the forgetting elixir you can have your points in the weapon you like by time you need them.  But for 90% of the game you can enjoy using any weapon. Don’t worry so much whether you’ve worked into it. If you did the Agility build but then find a blue shotgun and shells I bet you’ll have fun using it for awhile. 

[thegame2417]

Thanks for the thoughts!  I think a small revamp may need to be looked at.

[Roland]

25 minutes ago, thegame2417 said:

I think a small revamp may need to be looked at.

That will be a tough sell on the developer diary thread as TFP is happy with it and can point to record popularity for the game with things as they are. 
 

But revamping stuff is super popular in the modding forum so that might be where to pitch a revamp. 

[Boidster]

I've been playing jack-of-all-trades in the early game lately and having a blast. Haven't spent a point on any attribute yet, just buying the freebies in several skills. I can one-shot any normal zombie and two-shot the 750xp ones (bloated walker, Hawaiian shirt guy, feral Arlenes, etc.) with a Q1 iron crossbow I bought from the trader (Hidden Strike). I can hunt rabbits and chickens and I have like 200 meat stored up along with a ton of bones and feathers. I get a bit more from the trader, buy for a bit less. Dig a little faster, use a bit less stamina, get a bit more from trees and ores. Can cook the basics - teas and B&E. Can make a forge and iron.

 

So far it's working out very well, but before horde night 2 or 3 I'm sure I'll start specializing a bit more. I certainly don't feel constrained at all yet.

 

That said, I do see the argument for separating weapon skills from attributes. Nagana happen, but I'm sympathetic to the argument.

[Teacyn]

A19 did a pretty good job of improving the skill system by majorly condensing the utility skills. There's still blemishes (like lockpicking skill basically being a trap option and Lucky Looter being nowhere near as useful now) but it's a huge improvement over A19. I personally wish that there was a hybrid system where you'd get better at actually using weapons/tools as you used them but still needed skills to use them in the first place + upgrade them in other ways, but extremely unlikely to happen. Overall I'm mostly happy with the current system, though I hope it gets refined more and more.

[Boidster]

9 minutes ago, Teacyn said:

A19 did a pretty good job of improving the skill system...but it's a huge improvement over A19.

Completely agree, and wait 'til you see what they're going to do for A19! 😉

[Teacyn]

32 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Completely agree, and wait 'til you see what they're going to do for A19! 😉

LOL, that was supposed the be an A18 for the second one, am good at typing.

[AlyssaFaden]

I like them in principle, but there's some godawful logic behind some of them.

Want to be a cook? GET BUFF SON!!!

 

like WTF is cooking under strength?
 

[Boidster]

12 minutes ago, AlyssaFaden said:

like WTF is cooking under strength?

[Roland]

 

[PoloPoPo]

Skill tree could be much better. I have started a new savegame today and I really wanted to play with another melee weapon than the club. Brass knuckles look fun and cool and that is what I wanted to play with. BUT with the skill tree it is impossible for me to play with brass knuckles unless I decide to not play as good and as effective as possible just for the fun sake. If you ask me that is a pretty bad design.

 

Brass knuckles can be skilled with the fortitude attribute. Usually I don't spend a single skill point there. If I play with the club I have to spend my skill point on strength attribute. That is the tree I skill until level 7 for every savegame I play. Miner 69er, Mother Lode and Sex-Rex are too important no matter the playstyle. So why should I waste skill points on a tree I don't need anything from just to be able to play with a somewhat strong melee weapon (knuckles) when I could just go with skill points I spend anyway and play with club, which is much stronger and has more range than knuckles anyway.

 

Give me a knife / machete that is as strong as a steel club. Give me some steel knuckles that are as strong as a steel club. Then I could be able to play with another melee weapon than the club. Unfortunately right now I just have to play with the club if I want to be as efficient and strong as possible. There is no choice and that is where the current skill system fails.

[Ezed]

You don't need to max each Attribute to get decent benefits from a few points in chosen skills so I don't mind it so much.  Plus, if you play deep enough into the game, also with eyewear/face-wear buffs/food/etc. buffs, you'll have points to burn.

 

 

[smokingpaper]

Just do quests. Earn a some coin, sell the stuff you find what u dont need, buy an AK47. I mean, at day 2 i bought an AK47 with Q3.
Before buying it i even got  7.62mm as rewards. Quests beats anything in the beginning of the game. It is really rewarding if you do it right.

[Jugginator]

7 hours ago, Psychodabble said:

I liked them at first, but I really hate them now. I would love to be able to choose my weapon independently of my skills, but I can't so...

You are able to choose your weapon independently of your skills.  You won't be the best at them, but you'll be able to kill zombies efficiently with em. The one point into each weapon skill makes a large difference too, and they don't require any points into the tree.

[smokingpaper]

3 minutes ago, Jugginator said:

You are able to choose your weapon independently of your skills.  You won't be the best at them, but you'll be able to kill zombies efficiently with em. The one point into each weapon skill makes a large difference too, and they don't require any points into the tree.

This, I spend points in other skills first, dont spend any point in any weapon skill actually. unless i really need a certain weapon to do more damage. but if you play it right you get guns on the first few days so that will save spending some points on certain weapon skills. Quests. Do the quests. The rewards are pretty rewarding in the beginning, you get bullets etc etc. also spending some points in the bartering and the daring adventurer might not be too bad.

[Jugginator]

6 minutes ago, smokingpaper said:

This, I spend points in other skills first, dont spend any point in any weapon skill actually. unless i really need a certain weapon to do more damage. but if you play it right you get guns on the first few days so that will save spending some points on certain weapon skills. Quests. Do the quests. The rewards are pretty rewarding in the beginning, you get bullets etc etc. also spending some points in the bartering and the daring adventurer might not be too bad.

Indeed. Even on my self-gimping runs banning traders/quests/starter quest nomad on Survivalist with speeds on nightmare this is still true. One point into off-weapons is plenty enough while you focus on one tree with another side-focused tree. Generally I pick a tree I want to focus on, add points into another tree I wish to use a weapon as a main on while adding a point into whatever weapons I may find. Works fine. You also don't need to max any trees out.

[smokingpaper]

19 minutes ago, Jugginator said:

Indeed. Even on my self-gimping runs banning traders/quests/starter quest nomad on Survivalist with speeds on nightmare this is still true. One point into off-weapons is plenty enough while you focus on one tree with another side-focused tree. Generally I pick a tree I want to focus on, add points into another tree I wish to use a weapon as a main on while adding a point into whatever weapons I may find. Works fine. You also don't need to max any trees out.

 

[Jugginator]

Lol! Good point. Be like Ross and just pick trees that you have fun with, stop worrying about needing to max a weapon perk before you can use it.

[General Lee]

Something that has puzzled me for a while is that Master Chef and Living Off The Land are in two separate skill trees. You'd think it would make more sense to have the skills dealing with farming and cooking in the same skill tree.

[thegame2417]

16 minutes ago, General Lee said:

Something that has puzzled me for a while is that Master Chef and Living Off The Land are in two separate skill trees. You'd think it would make more sense to have the skills dealing with farming and cooking in the same skill tree.

This is kind of what I meant with the post.  How does TFP see you using the tree.  I like the perks of the skills. I just believe they need tighten up a little.  Your post is a good example.  I went all Intellect tree.  It was entirely over powered.  The junk turrets early game speed quests up tremendously.  Then the Better Bartering and The Daring Adventurer were very OP.  Horde nights became a walk through quick.  I have been playing this game for a long time.  I have been watching Kage848 for about 5 years lol.  I love the game.  I think it has come a very long way.  I just do not like using Traders to make up for skills I can get with a touch up of the trees.  The traders too me have been very overpowered.  They hand out all the rewards you can handle let alone buy.  Every Youtuber playing 7DTD visit 3 sometimes 4 traders a day.  The game was definitely harder with out them.

 

I usually follow the books when I play.  I think the books with mods are devastating.  I may get three archery books early game.  That is the route I go.  Then I follow up with mods and skill tree.  

 

I am not putting the game down in any way.  LOVE IT.  I just wanted opinions and perspectives on how other people were handling their skill trees.  This is good stuff so far.

[meganoth]

53 minutes ago, General Lee said:

Something that has puzzled me for a while is that Master Chef and Living Off The Land are in two separate skill trees. You'd think it would make more sense to have the skills dealing with farming and cooking in the same skill tree.

Remember this is also a multiplayer game. It works very well when one player builds the farm and another player cooks.

 

If you are a single player, I think it makes the most sense to just take the first perk point of both very early so you start the game with a few essential cooking recipes and a practicable double produce on harvest. Every further point is optional and would be only taken if you specialize into that attribute.

 

Generally perks are distributed to attributes so every attribute has a perk for melee weapon, a gun, a perk to get resources and a perk that directly or indirectly gets your health back up (food as well regenerates health).