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Progressive Loot OR Weapon Proficiency ?


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27 minutes ago, alanea said:

because they clearly mean to kmove top tier  gear in  top tier POIs  only ( like dishong tower  and new tier 6 they talked about several times -  bandit camps ? )

Then just add Q6 weapon parts needed for Q6 crafting and put them in those loot tables where Q6 items are in. Balance drop chance of Q6 items and Q6 parts in a way that spam crafting is impossible, but you won't gear up each slot by looting before crafting any.

Not saying that's the optimal solution, but if that's all you are worried about then there are easy ways to make sure everyone has to go to those places to get the best gear possible. Also while there are probably players that want to avoid challenges, I'm talking from my perspective. I do want challenges. I rarely stay in may base (at least since A17, due to quests and more advanced POI). It's not the loot that gets me into bigger POIs, but the more compelling gameplay in comparison to digging tunnels all day long.
 

So it's not like I'm against looting or challenges. I just like making part of my gear myself. Farming the materials, getting closer after each POI to having all materials gathered I need to craft my new weapon and then finally crafting it and slaying zombies with the weapon I worked for. I prefer that over looting weapon crates all day and hoping that at some lucky day I got the weapon I need. I already have that part with the slots I'm not specialized in. I also have that part on books I haven't found yet. I'd love to have at least part of my gearing up progress bound to the capabilities of my character, not just my luck with RNG.

 

31 minutes ago, alanea said:

for now   early is mix of crafting  / looting  ... mid tier( iron tools)  crafting clearly wins  endgame  =Q6  loot only

The current state isn't even meant to stay, so it doesn't really matter that much. I'm talking about long term goals, because those are more important to me. As far as I understand it (I can be wrong) crafting and looting are meant to be on par on early and mid game while crafting is meant to be subpar in endgame.

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2 hours ago, Jihh said:

I dislike those terms in general, since they are too broadly used and most often aren't limited to actual cases. I feel like even if someone is crying, it would be better to be diplomatic about it.

 

I'd say it's good so far. I didn't feel you were that close in understanding my points back in A18. But I added more details and other things as well. Let's stay with where we are now, because that's the main part.

 

Fair enough on being diplomatic. I post along a spectrum of diplomacy depending on my mood and the tone set by the person I'm talking to as well as a nod to comedy.

 

As far as your preferences are concerned, I personally think there is a good chance that once legendaries are implemented, the quality 6 level of gear will be released to crafting once again. I see no reason, myself, to have both legendaries and Q6 both filling the role of exciting reward or loot trophy. I don't know whether it will still bother you that legendaries won't be craftable. I will promise that I will jump on the bandwagon to return Q6 to craftable once legendaries are in.

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Since legendaries are in talk for some time now I already suspected that Q6 crafting will be back then. But that doesn't change that crafting will stay subpar in endgame, so I will still dislike the design that part of the game is heading for. I mean I'm well aware that I will probably be able to mod the game to my liking, so I won't get my pitchfork out. But I will probably still think that it is bad game design (for the type of game 7dtd is. In Diablo or other games/genres having the best items drop makes absolutely sense)  and will give feedback on suitable occasions.
What makes it especially bothersome for me is that there are already balancing tools in the game that easily prevent crafting from being too powerful. So it's not like anyone would've to come up with some new and complex ideas to avoid that potential problem. When I played A18 the first time, I was absolutely convinced that TFP is heading for a system where both ways a competitive to each other, because the system they implemented was screaming for it.

14 minutes ago, Roland said:

as well as a nod to comedy.

Risky ^^
Somehow in forums people always think I'm dead serious and angered. In english forums I don't even try to be funny, but even in german forums people regularly mistake my tone. I often get said I should chill/relax/whatever when I'm already laughing.

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Just create another tier of weapons/gear that bridges the gap between primitive & crude weapons & armor and the next tier of loot so it's not overpowered and yet would make sense finding in sealed crates, stores, vaults, etc from before the apocalypse.

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3 hours ago, Roland said:

As far as your preferences are concerned, I personally think there is a good chance that once legendaries are implemented, the quality 6 level of gear will be released to crafting once again. I see no reason, myself, to have both legendaries and Q6 both filling the role of exciting reward or loot trophy. I don't know whether it will still bother you that legendaries won't be craftable. I will promise that I will jump on the bandwagon to return Q6 to craftable once legendaries are in.

I truly hope legendaries are much more rare than current Q6 items.   

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3 hours ago, Jihh said:

Then just add Q6 weapon parts needed for Q6 crafting and put them in those loot tables where Q6 items are in. Balance drop chance of Q6 items and Q6 parts in a way that spam crafting is impossible, but you won't gear up each slot by looting before crafting any.

err sure lets just casually add another 20  types of parts ;)

i really dont see anything wrong with choosing top tier  to be uncraftable

cerafting in  7 days  it extremely important ... not just some peg leged minor featureand honestly this  choice made by developers dont "make crafting irrelevant"

3 hours ago, Jihh said:


Not saying that's the optimal solution, but if that's all you are worried about then there are easy ways to make sure everyone has to go to those places to get the best gear possible. Also while there are probably players that want to avoid challenges, I'm talking from my perspective. I do want challenges. I rarely stay in may base (at least since A17, due to quests and more advanced POI). It's not the loot that gets me into bigger POIs, but the more compelling gameplay in comparison to digging tunnels all day long.

well majority of  7 days content is about  POIs everyone should be looting them even if they enjoy crafting

3 hours ago, Jihh said:

So it's not like I'm against looting or challenges. I just like making part of my gear myself. Farming the materials, getting closer after each POI to having all materials gathered I need to craft my new weapon and then finally crafting it and slaying zombies with the weapon I worked for. I prefer that over looting weapon crates all day and hoping that at some lucky day I got the weapon I need. I already have that part with the slots I'm not specialized in. I also have that part on books I haven't found yet. I'd love to have at least part of my gearing up progress bound to the capabilities of my character, not just my luck with RNG.

well you can craft  best boots in game (quality 5 but still better than looted q6) and all mods

3 hours ago, Jihh said:

The current state isn't even meant to stay, so it doesn't really matter that much. I'm talking about long term goals, because those are more important to me. As far as I understand it (I can be wrong) crafting and looting are meant to be on par on early and mid game while crafting is meant to be subpar in endgame.

actually thats just assumption .... its clear for last several alphas that looting is game core and crafting is just secondary supplement +  base building

2 hours ago, Brugas said:

Just create another tier of weapons/gear that bridges the gap between primitive & crude weapons & armor and the next tier of loot so it's not overpowered and yet would make sense finding in sealed crates, stores, vaults, etc from before the apocalypse.

not rly  option seeing  how close can primitive be to iron  .. even now ...but they can  easily exchange stone to  some kind of rusty / scrap  ... iron is almost as common as stones and wooden pickaxe would be epic fail

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10 hours ago, leaderdog said:

I'm glad they'll be moving to zonees that will be gamestage set... I'm hoping.  so example you go to a large military base and the gamestage of that "zone" is 120.  So it's challenging just to step on that base...  but I sure hope they don't have a blind barrier that will prevent you from going in.  It should be your choice if you want to go in and try and stealth it or get wrecked in the process.  But if they're going to just hand you stone axes or whatever the new pointless RTS early stage weapons are, it will be seriously disappointing.

From what I have read, you can enter high gamestage zones at any time. Even on day 1 armed with a wooden club, a bow and without armor. Whether you come out alive remains to be seen.

 

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2 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

From what I have read, you can enter high gamestage zones at any time. Even on day 1 armed with a wooden club, a bow and without armor. Whether you come out alive remains to be seen.

 

Exactly. It should be reminiscent of the old hub city. We used to skirt around it when trying to get together as a group because running through was a death sentence. I think it is less of a "This is a 120 gamestage" zone and more of a "This zone adds +50 to the player's gamestage" type zone. But they might go either way with it.

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7 hours ago, alanea said:

err sure lets just casually add another 20  types of parts

As I said, my spontanous answer isn't optimal, but it's not like there is no way to tackle your problem. It's actually very easy to fix.

 

7 hours ago, alanea said:

i really dont see anything wrong with choosing top tier  to be uncraftable

I do and I explained it. But somehow you didn't even answer on why you think otherwise, instead you created a problem that is easily fixable.
Before you feel challenged for a lengthy discussion: I don't want to convince anyone, there is no point, since the design decisions are made by TFP anyways. I just answered to your previous post, because your problem is that easily fixable and I was wondering how this is an argument in any way.

 

7 hours ago, alanea said:

cerafting in  7 days  it extremely important

I rarely craft anything nowadays. Crafting more important in every alpha I played before. But that's another topic and the crafting versus looting discussion regarding gear is already offtopic, so I'd like to not engage in a general crafting discussion in this thread.

 

7 hours ago, alanea said:

well majority of  7 days content is about  POIs everyone should be looting them even if they enjoy crafting

Well that's something we agree on and I never said otherwise. Even back when digging zombies were announced I argued that I don't need digging zombies to leave my home, I need interesting POI to visit and interesting loot. I argued for a pull rather than a push factor, because I wanted to leave my base more often, but there was just no reason to in A15 and A16, because you could craft almost everything without leaving your base and it's immediate surroundings. Therefor I was very excited when A17 finally added incentives to visit POIs and looting got more important. I weren't very vocal here in the forum, but if anyone would've put a label on me at that time, it would've been looter rather than crafter. But I'm neither one nor the other, I just want both parts to be important and competitive from the first to the last day.

 

7 hours ago, alanea said:

well you can craft  best boots in game (quality 5 but still better than looted q6)

Why is that?

 

7 hours ago, alanea said:

actually thats just assumption

Actually madmole said that he doesn't want crafting to be on par in the endgame. No legendaries for crafting.

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I've been playing since alpha 15. At that time i used to think, this game is like done. Just finish it already and release it.

 

Nearly 500 hours later i realize i was so wrong. I hope they never finish this game. It's only gotten so much better with every new alpha. I only play sp and pd.

 

The progressive loot is a better route imo. Before, i would never get to use a blunderbuss because I'd find 17 pistols in toilets day 1. The bow was nearly useless after a few days. I'd have iron picks by like day 3. Then it gets boring really quick.

 

I like the new system much better. Only thing i think needs tweaking is the amount of food you find. To me, that's the best part of the game, struggling to find food or medicine while barely surviving. When playing permadeath, the food becomes too easy to find. After a few weeks i have stacks or meat. I know it's a very thin line.

 

I like contemplating on whether i should take iron gut or risk it. Should i risk eating this moldy sandwich?! I don't want the rest of the loot messed with, just the food. So turning down loot percentage isnt the answer. Modifying game files or modding could be but i dont get into all that.

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10 minutes ago, Mjgoldsby said:

I've been playing since alpha 15. At that time i used to think, this game is like done. Just finish it already and release it.

 

Nearly 500 hours later i realize i was so wrong. I hope they never finish this game. It's only gotten so much better with every new alpha. I only play sp and pd.

 

The progressive loot is a better route imo. Before, i would never get to use a blunderbuss because I'd find 17 pistols in toilets day 1. The bow was nearly useless after a few days. I'd have iron picks by like day 3. Then it gets boring really quick.

 

I like the new system much better. Only thing i think needs tweaking is the amount of food you find. To me, that's the best part of the game, struggling to find food or medicine while barely surviving. When playing permadeath, the food becomes too easy to find. After a few weeks i have stacks or meat. I know it's a very thin line.

 

I like contemplating on whether i should take iron gut or risk it. Should i risk eating this moldy sandwich?! I don't want the rest of the loot messed with, just the food. So turning down loot percentage isnt the answer. Modifying game files or modding could be but i dont get into all that.

I'm glad you enjoy it,

 

I think bows would be more interesting to use if sound actually mattered in this game.  Sure you wake up some zombies, but using a gun should draw more, or spawn in a few more behind buildings, or in the buildings (out of player sight) so that the gun has a punishment for using.  Noise draws zombies.  or traditionally they do.  Here firing your gun, making a huge ruckus running around and banging things has little to no impact.  This would have you try to conserve your bullets or have to make a lot more since guns will always draw a crowd.

 

Forcing people to play slower doesn't add enjoyment for many.

 

I do agree the food after a short time isn't an issue, I like what they did do with this alpha regarding better foods give better food value, but at the same time I see why people are complaining too, a can of any food should fill us up, and eating 3 helpings of bacon and eggs to fill yourself up or 10 steaks to get your health to full is a bit much to accept.

 

Even infections become a non threat because you can make your own antibiotics.  Some of these crafting items make the game far to easy.  I don't want "Gating" but maybe these types of items require far longer to create (literally a couple in day games) - I haven't researchec how long it takes in real life to make an antibiotic from scratch so perhaps the pimps got it right, but if not, then that's something that could be done.  Making some of the craftable items too gamey make the game to easy. 

 

I've been infected on the first day a couple times, and then my sole focus was on finding items to get rid of it... stumps for honey, or hospitals, or zooming into house bathrooms and back out again.   That panic makes the game fun.  fast forward 6 days I have 6-12 antibiotics and a dozen jars of honey.  infections are just an inconvenience at that point.  I know some people just eat glass or whatever, I guess that's their choice but it is fun to struggle to find certain items.

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2 minutes ago, leaderdog said:

I've been infected on the first day a couple times, and then my sole focus was on finding items to get rid of it... stumps for honey, or hospitals, or zooming into house bathrooms and back out again.   That panic makes the game fun.

That actually happened to me in my last play through.... infected on day 1 and got to 33% infected before I finally found some antibiotics late in day 3.   I play dead is dead and have never died from an infection before.  I thought this was going to be the first time and it was kinda stressful, which was fun.

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5 hours ago, Jihh said:

As I said, my spontanous answer isn't optimal, but it's not like there is no way to tackle your problem. It's actually very easy to fix.

 

I do and I explained it. But somehow you didn't even answer on why you think otherwise, instead you created a problem that is easily fixable.
Before you feel challenged for a lengthy discussion: I don't want to convince anyone, there is no point, since the design decisions are made by TFP anyways. I just answered to your previous post, because your problem is that easily fixable and I was wondering how this is an argument in any way.

no idea what  i  "missed" but yeah discussion is rather pointless at this topic   TFP think top tier should be loot only .. and i just 110% agree with that game is getting better and better  and people whinned about every change  ... diging zombies ... ai pathfinding ... simplified quality from  1-600  .. loot progression ...auger nerf... shotgun nerf....spamcrafting .... combining items...... zombie loot ....

they do good job  game would be mess if they changed things based on minor forum whims

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I rarely craft anything nowadays. Crafting more important in every alpha I played before. But that's another topic and the crafting versus looting discussion regarding gear is already offtopic, so I'd like to not engage in a general crafting discussion in this thread.

well then iam afraid you  missing out huge part of game  ...as almost everyone builfs bases    .. horde bases ... ammo ...  armor ... tools ... even more tools  to  milk every duke  from rude trader... all  equipment mods they need

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Actually madmole said that he doesn't want crafting to be on par in the endgame. No legendaries for crafting.

i think its completely fine we have complex  craftin system  with so many options and usefull things to do  .. that we simply dont need to craft every single thing in game (and we can still craft all mods)

2 hours ago, Mjgoldsby said:

I've been playing since alpha 15. At that time i used to think, this game is like done. Just finish it already and release it.

 

Nearly 500 hours later i realize i was so wrong. I hope they never finish this game. It's only gotten so much better with every new alpha. I only play sp and pd.

 

The progressive loot is a better route imo. Before, i would never get to use a blunderbuss because I'd find 17 pistols in toilets day 1. The bow was nearly useless after a few days. I'd have iron picks by like day 3. Then it gets boring really quick.

 

I like the new system much better. Only thing i think needs tweaking is the amount of food you find. To me, that's the best part of the game, struggling to find food or medicine while barely surviving. When playing permadeath, the food becomes too easy to find. After a few weeks i have stacks or meat. I know it's a very thin line.

yeah people often complain but thats part of evolution ...

pistols and knives still drop from toilets btw ( probably some weird american custom ? :D)  but only Q1

blunderbuss is nice  fill between guns with ammo requirement .. and more risky melee

hopefully we can get more "sliders" over time  good example is conan exiles with sliders to modify almost everything .. from hunger rate to stamina drain

2 hours ago, leaderdog said:

I think bows would be more interesting to use if sound actually mattered in this game.  Sure you wake up some zombies, but using a gun should draw more, or spawn in a few more behind buildings, or in the buildings (out of player sight) so that the gun has a punishment for using.  Noise draws zombies.  or traditionally they do.  Here firing your gun, making a huge ruckus running around and banging things has little to no impact.  This would have you try to conserve your bullets or have to make a lot more since guns will always draw a crowd.

problem is  most zombies in poi now are  hiden sleepers  that often stay hidden even if you have fun with rocket launcher in next room .. also walkers who wake up wont swarm you ....  they reach you  / puch through  door  .. minutes later  one by one "random spawn" of zombies  outside was hard nerfed in a17 (guess to bandaid worsening perfomance? ) and wandering hordes arent common at all as well (  good old times  when   20+ zombies ambushed you in poi because they walked around)

 

bows itself are great .. but you wont get compound early now  primitive bow is so awful its not worth using  and wooden bow is very weak as well

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Forcing people to play slower doesn't add enjoyment for many.

finding endgame stuff at day  1 may be enjoyable but for very short while in a17 you could easily finished game by day  40 because there was nothing more to loot a18 messed  this with random stats so you needed multiple Q6 to minmax but search for  q6  with  1 more damage than your q6 doesnt really make it rewarding enought

after day  30  roughtly in a18  i just wandered  out randomly  just to find and explore unknown  poi ...  throwing away  99% loot

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I do agree the food after a short time isn't an issue, I like what they did do with this alpha regarding better foods give better food value, but at the same time I see why people are complaining too, a can of any food should fill us up, and eating 3 helpings of bacon and eggs to fill yourself up or 10 steaks to get your health to full is a bit much to accept.

thats actually minor issue ... important is only difficulty / hunger   balance if food can give you  5x more  a but you find  5x  less   and beacon will cost  5x more to craft  it will solve your perceived problem .. but change nothing except creating empty kitchens

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Even infections become a non threat because you can make your own antibiotics. 

well  day 34 i was infected twice ... and i have  3 stacks of honey and   7-8 antibiotics ( throwing away herbal ones)

infection is barely issue  but thonestly it never was even with old alphas .. you more often died to dog than get infected = giving you over 1+3+24? real time hours to find antibiotic and  1/2  air drops contained 1-3

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I've been infected on the first day a couple times, and then my sole focus was on finding items to get rid of it....

yep think  infection should be alot harder to cure ... and lasting so people have to deal with it .. and suffer from debuff ... rather than pop honey instantly

Edited by alanea (see edit history)
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@alanea I'm not for the debuff for infections, they did that the last two alphas it was not fun.  When they had different stages of the infection, that was ok.  Stage one you're sick, get antibiotics, stage 2, stam reduction, stage 3 sever stam penalty... next death.  That seamed reasonable to me.  But the pimps decided to change it to a few terrible decisions, and then to right now which I think is fine... mind you I haven't stayed sick for terribly long, generally was able to find something speed looting to keep it from getting to high and then finally get rid of it.

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1 hour ago, leaderdog said:

@alanea I'm not for the debuff for infections, they did that the last two alphas it was not fun.  When they had different stages of the infection, that was ok.  Stage one you're sick, get antibiotics, stage 2, stam reduction, stage 3 sever stam penalty... next death.  That seamed reasonable to me.  But the pimps decided to change it to a few terrible decisions, and then to right now which I think is fine... mind you I haven't stayed sick for terribly long, generally was able to find something speed looting to keep it from getting to high and then finally get rid of it.

last two alphas  what?   it was  like that in a13 14 15 16   phase 1 2 3  last  being 24 hours

17 changed it to  1 hour?  then you die  thats it

18 19  keeps that same

Edited by alanea (see edit history)
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7 minutes ago, leaderdog said:

@alanea I'm not for the debuff for infections, they did that the last two alphas it was not fun.  When they had different stages of the infection, that was ok.  Stage one you're sick, get antibiotics, stage 2, stam reduction, stage 3 sever stam penalty... next death.  That seamed reasonable to me.  But the pimps decided to change it to a few terrible decisions, and then to right now which I think is fine... mind you I haven't stayed sick for terribly long, generally was able to find something speed looting to keep it from getting to high and then finally get rid of it.

Well, from my experience, I can tell you that there is a stamina regen debuff to infection... and it felt pretty significant.  I couldn't wait to cure it.

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1 minute ago, alanea said:

last two alphas  what?   it was  like that in a13 14 15 16   phase 1 2 3  last  being 24 hours

17 changed it to  1 hour?  then youd ay  thats it

18 19  keeps that same

Sorry, I don't remember being infected for any more than a few minutes in those alphas.  Whenever they put that big debuff  for being infected like you got scratched and BOOM 'oh lordy, I can hardly walk'.  I meant that.  the instant debuff effect. I didn't like that.


Alpha 11-12 when I started, I did get infected and couldn't, for the life of me, find an antibiotic, I even holed up and put all my loot in containers because I thought I was going to die. But then the next stage was just a debuff. 

 

This game really was the greatest when you had no idea.  Newbs just playing are in for a treat, hopefully they don't watch to many videos that spoil it all.

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18 minutes ago, alanea said:

17 changed it to  1 hour?  then youd ay  thats it

The A17 implementation was pretty awful. The short time frame hardly allowed you to take antibiotics if you were not near the base or had antibiotics in your inventory or vehicle. And even then you didn't know if they worked but you only had a chance that they would work. And the debuff of stage 3 was horrific.


The lack of information was the biggest problem. I saw a live stream of Kage848 when he cleared a crack a book and got infected. He had antibiotics in the vehicle but they didn't work and he could do nothing at all but wait. I've never seen him rage like that.

 

The current implementation is much better. I don't have a problem if they shorten the time frame a bit and increase the debuff. The most important thing is that I know that the antibiotics work and in which situations I have to take which cure.

 

Edited by RipClaw (see edit history)
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On 8/24/2020 at 10:09 PM, alanea said:

not rly  option seeing  how close can primitive be to iron  .. even now ...but they can  easily exchange stone to  some kind of rusty / scrap  ... iron is almost as common as stones and wooden pickaxe would be epic fail

Not at all, can be easily done considering all they've done so far.  Just a minor niche level gapping  the crude/primitive stage from the next jump.  That's all.  

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Shame that I've never felt threatened by the infection -- with 25% loot... I really hope that someday they decide to tie survival elements with difficulty or add an option for them.

On 8/25/2020 at 12:13 AM, leaderdog said:

I'm glad they'll be moving to zonees that will be gamestage set... I'm hoping.  so example you go to a large military base and the gamestage of that "zone" is 120.

I'd prefer set zones too, but they will supposedly have modifiers. At least I hope that some zones will be GS capped. But if they, for some reason, ever decide to have set GS zones, they also have to make sure it won't be a "run, loot the t6 and die" fest.

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On 8/23/2020 at 2:42 PM, Solomon said:

Also we dont have a full auto trigger mod, even the burst mod is ridicolous on the weapon already, put on the drum magazine and something for the firerate and we reached a point where it would been better to just create an Uzi ingame.

you may want recheck this one ...  just crafted some mods and noticed full auto mod is clearly in game and craftable

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