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Yuzuke

Progressive Loot OR Weapon Proficiency ?

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On 8/20/2020 at 1:12 PM, Yuzuke said:

here's a better solution: bring back the old progressive system with some new tweaks ---

 

there are older versions available on steam.  I've been kinda nostalgic again for Valmod A16 for a couple of weeks now.

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2 hours ago, leaderdog said:

But if loot in the trader is going to scale with gamestage I'll again be annoyed with something so silly as a game limiting mechanic.

Every game with a trader does this. We just get to see how the sausage is made with all the gamestage stuff and so it's "artificial". You can't buy +5 Sword of Decapitation as a lvl 1 assassin and you can't buy Pristine Solar Armor as a n00b space marine, and you can't buy a level 10 FAL-FN when you're only a level 6 quasi-governmental agent. All games work that way and we just accept it.

 

We got spoiled by One Loot Table to Rule Them All and now that there's an actual progression mechanic being added, we don' want nonna that. GIMMEH MAH PUMP SHOTGUN ON DAY 3 DANGIT! I get it, but the game is moving towards where every other game already is.

 

I think the secret stash will still give us some good rare loot a little above our GS. But maybe not a Q3 compound crossbow in the first week...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Boidster said:

Every game with a trader does this. We just get to see how the sausage is made with all the gamestage stuff and so it's "artificial". You can't buy +5 Sword of Decapitation as a lvl 1 assassin and you can't buy Pristine Solar Armor as a n00b space marine, and you can't buy a level 10 FAL-FN when you're only a level 6 quasi-governmental agent. All games work that way and we just accept it.

 

We got spoiled by One Loot Table to Rule Them All and now that there's an actual progression mechanic being added, we don' want nonna that. GIMMEH MAH PUMP SHOTGUN ON DAY 3 DANGIT! I get it, but the game is moving towards where every other game already is.

 

I think the secret stash will still give us some good rare loot a little above our GS. But maybe not a Q3 compound crossbow in the first week...

I'll admit I have no idea if you just made up those names or if their for specific games :)

 

I think the difference is context of the game. i've mentioned this several times in likely multiple threads.  We're shortly after the end of the world otherwise most buildings wouldn't have power.  Why would a store not have modern weapons? 

 

In rpg games, they're made that way and always have been, however, there are also TONNES of RPG games that you can buy on day one the uber swords if you have the money.  However, you don't likely have the money nor are you going to have the money for a very long time.  Although, in many rpg games you still may not have the strength or ability to wield such powerful weapons, or magics.  That logic we can deal with.  Also the level restriction for using the weapons is another reason I just plain got bored of rpg games.  World of Warcraft was like that, specific swords having a level restriction right on it and you could just carry it around in your backpack until you finally hit the specific level. 

 

This game is different.  It's you, in a world that has ended while we already have guns and what not around.  We're not trying to get the latest r7-2000 Laser rifle because that's just not a thing.  A shotgun is, a rifle is, and so are Ak-47's apparently since we're basing this game in the states.  So if a trader didn't have firearms, they're either all sold out or not a very good trader.  And using any of these weapons shouldn't be a restriction as a shotgun blast to the face of a zombie if you are 12 years old or 50 years old will have the same result... unless you miss for some bizarre reason.  Your "skill" with that weapon doesn't determine the damage it does, the weapon and the shell do.  As long as you're capable of aiming it and maintaining that aim the gun does the rest.

 

Now if you go to the trader and see mainly stone weapons and tools, that's a dumb dumb game decision for this type of game.  This is not a Real Time Strategy game, we're not dumping crap loads of research into a science division that will magically (or sciencely) break a barrier and allow for us to get the next tier or weapons or technology.  That's just simply not a good mechanic for 7d2d.

 

I get the pimps are trying to add all these rpg elements to the game.  hell I don't even use the candy I think they're stupid.  It's really moving from a survival game into the not sure how but I feel so much better at bartering with this here candy in my mouth and this cigar.  To me, these elements don't make a better game, they make the game feel silly.

 

But each to their own.  I can avoid using them.  You may feel you need to use it or like these elements.

 

And 7d2d is quickly as you said "moving towards where every other game already is."  And that is the problem.  It's losing it's uniqueness and become lame copies of these other games that have been done to death.  It was a shining example of a great game already,  they just needed to flesh out some things and add content.  But here we are, trying to be like everyone else.  That's boring.  That sucks.  Go be you the best damn Barney you can be. ;)

Edited by leaderdog (see edit history)

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12 hours ago, Solomon said:

.......

dude just... stop   we have too many weapons already  want example ? 

blunderbuss .. crap single shot shotgun

two shot shotgun .. with bad reload

pump shotgun  ... shorter reload but still meh

new auto shotgun .... basically shotgun smg

what more you want ?  shotgun with  50  shells in magazine ?   shotgun effective on  100 block range ?   new steel club thats just reskinned baseball bat with higher damage ?

 

nope we already  got more and more weapons to  make tiers  and it went too far already ... we have semi auto sniper rifle  with  15 bullets :D

 what should different smg have ?  better accuracy ?  lower recoil ?  faster fire rate at cost of recoil ?  thats exactly what mods do   4 mods allow you to  heavily modify base gun .. leafing to  hundreds of  custom weapons

7 hours ago, leaderdog said:

@meganoth

I set it so I have 60 zombies roaming around during the day (I'm sure I screwed something up because there is often way, way WAY more zombies I'm killing in a single day and they tend to gravitate my direction even when in buildings) but it adds more enjoyment for me to the game.  I don't like the current empty world game we're in.  And the only place you find zombies are in closets and what not in buildings.

So I don't have any respect for game companies that do things like that.   but that's just one salty guys opinion ;)

well game perfomance declines every alpha  60 zombies have good  chance to crash game now they reduced zombies in a17 for reason ... game cant handle what it used to  ... even if you have  HW capacity for that  ... dont ask me why  ... i still cry for huge hordes in  hub cities  lured out from all poi around  by gunshots

5 hours ago, Boidster said:

The games which offer 12 different (usually real-world accurate) assault rifles are different kinds of games from 7D2D. There's enough min/maxing to do between tiers and quality levels, let's not bring FAL vs M4 into the mix especially more "modern" pipe/zip gun, alright. This game does not need the entire catalog of modern weaponry; it's not that kind of game and we can scratch that itch in other games.

 

Hope I don't need all those medkits I sold back to him! After they adjust trader stock to more closely follow loot progression, I wonder if this will still be doable. I hope so, since minibike is technically something you could craft pretty early in the game if you find a working forge and workbench and the schematics. It was a lot of fun chasing down the Dukes.

well  blunderbuss itself doesnt fit well from begining honestly .... dunno if you ever seen some

but we craft primitive version of handmade shotgun from iron pipes and ductapes  ... both  model and name  doesnt reflect that too well pipe shotgun isnt  too original idea but lets wait for it  before judging

 

zip gun would be nice .. perfectly fiting post apocalypse handmade weapon ( and pistol line need new gun  as we have  just pistol and smg for  9 mm )

 

yes we dont need more guns ... we actually can heavily modify guns with mods (doubt you can double firerate  of smg by few spring in real life)  so we realistically have alot more personalized guns   not to mention random stats ( want smg with better firerate  but worse magazine size ?  here take this one)

5 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Your screamers are all in my iron mine. You are welcome to pick them up anytime. It would be my pleasure to return them to you. :)

 2 forges and cement mixer can spawn screamers easily if you missing them just maker more forges ... screamers are harder to spawn than they used to  but still easy to see

4 hours ago, leaderdog said:

But if loot in the trader is going to scale with gamestage I'll again be annoyed with something so silly as a game limiting mechanic.  Why would the retailer just not have anything of use but stone tools to sell, or whatever the low end weapon/tools they're going to be adding.  I guess if you're selling him lots of stuff they could have the trader say: "Thanks to you I've been able to upgrade my inventory".   At least then you'd have a "Sense" of progression for those that need it. ;) But more likely the trader would say, "You've sold me enough crap, you're going to make me go broke, get out of here with that junk!"   :) /shrug

hmm well sad news thy already scale by gamestage just less drastically  than loot ... you wont buy tier 5 ak on day  1   and they never sell tier6 items

well they already refuse to buy stuff if they have too many  but yeah it would be great if they expanded offer  depending on amount of quests you did for them

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6 hours ago, alanea said:

dude just... stop   we have too many weapons already  want example ? 

blunderbuss .. crap single shot shotgun

two shot shotgun .. with bad reload

pump shotgun  ... shorter reload but still meh

new auto shotgun .... basically shotgun smg

what more you want ?  shotgun with  50  shells in magazine ?   shotgun effective on  100 block range ?   new steel club thats just reskinned baseball bat with higher damage ?

 

nope we already  got more and more weapons to  make tiers  and it went too far already ... we have semi auto sniper rifle  with  15 bullets :D

 what should different smg have ?  better accuracy ?  lower recoil ?  faster fire rate at cost of recoil ?  thats exactly what mods do   4 mods allow you to  heavily modify base gun .. leafing to  hundreds of  custom weapons

Want actual shotgun variations?

 

Blunderbuss -> Hunting shotgun

610522.jpg

Sawed off shotgun -> Double Barrel Shotgun

Double-Barrel-Shotgun-Tristar-Hunter-EX.

Pump Action Shotgun -> Double Barrel Pump Action Shotgun

DP-12-12-GA-DOUBLE-BARREL-PUMP-SHOTGUN-1

 

Now you know whats the exact difference between my approach and the pimps approach?

 

The pimps use a linear system:

6 hours ago, alanea said:

blunderbuss .. crap single shot shotgun

two shot shotgun .. with bad reload

pump shotgun  ... shorter reload but still meh

new auto shotgun .... basically shotgun smg

Just as you pointed out here it goes from blunderbuss to auto shotgun making all the previous versions pointless.

Meanwhile my version actually embraces that each weapon has unique characteristics:

 

Blunderbuss evolves into the traditional hunting shotgun, it keeps its characteristics stays single shot but now has enough range to be able to kill a chicken from 20 meter away.

The sawed off shotgun regains its original lenght providing it more precision and range. The damage is the same but now you can actually use it to get rid of a bear from afar.

The pump action shotgun gets a military upgrade to be able to deal with double barrels providing it much more damage to deal.

As for the full auto, i could have linked the belt-fed auto shotgun here but i guess (or atleast hope) that you get my point.

 

6 hours ago, alanea said:

thats exactly what mods do   4 mods allow you to  heavily modify base gun .. leafing to  hundreds of  custom weapons

Yeah thats their purpose but they fail it because they are not common enough to allevite the low amount of weapons we have and they also are heavily limited by weapon apparence.

 

For example we could have had a full auto mod for shotguns but that would certainly push some people over the edge so the pimps had to design a full auto shotgun.

Same goes for all other ideas.

 

I mean let me ask you what can i do to get an Uzi in this game? 

 

I would need a magazine extender what lets me put 40-50 rounds in the magazine and a full auto mod along with a high firerate mod to get the same deal. Its just not possible without designing a brand new weapon.

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59 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Want actual shotgun variations?

 

Blunderbuss -> Hunting shotgun

Sawed off shotgun -> Double Barrel Shotgun

Pump Action Shotgun -> Double Barrel Pump Action Shotgun

 

well  blunderbuss is primitive grandpa of all mentioned actually  not just  hunting one

Double Barrel Pump Action Shotgun is mostly oddity  its not rly evolution or significantly better just gimmick of modern market .. that one day introduce 7 barreled magnum  just from lack of inspiration

 

sawed off shotgun  = pretty much hunting shotgun with cut barrel something we actually do ingame    you can put  sawed off barrel on pump action ( and  unless iam wrong it should fit to auto shotgun as well.. honestly didnt tried this ... as shotguns quite sucks  for several reasons in a18+ ((destroying blocks / floors in poi, sawed are useless even on medium range ... while barreled  have non existant spread and hiting  moving heads with so bad accuracy and close to no spread can make you easily  miss shots even one  melee range :D ))

 

meaning you can have sawed off / long barreled /duckbilled variant  of any shotgun you wish giving you  12 weapons  instead 4  for single slot .. with  features you wish

 

59 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Now you know whats the exact difference between my approach and the pimps approach?

 

The pimps use a linear system:

Just as you pointed out here it goes from blunderbuss to auto shotgun making all the previous versions pointless.

Meanwhile my version actually embraces that each weapon has unique characteristics:

well they chosen tiers so why not ...   what you want ?    running around endgame with blunderbuss  thats  as strong as auto shotgun ?

59 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Blunderbuss evolves into the traditional hunting shotgun, it keeps its characteristics stays single shot but now has enough range to be able to kill a chicken from 20 meter away.

The sawed off shotgun regains its original lenght providing it more precision and range. The damage is the same but now you can actually use it to get rid of a bear from afar.

The pump action shotgun gets a military upgrade to be able to deal with double barrels providing it much more damage to deal.

As for the full auto, i could have linked the belt-fed auto shotgun here but i guess (or atleast hope) that you get my point.

actually nope  blunderbuss was single shot  but almost everything was single shot at that time its the curse of front loaded weapons  its in no way ancestor fo sawed off shotguns  ... sure it was devastating at point blank  ... but many of them actually effective on up to  30 meters as barrel lenght wasnt same for all  ... we had short barreled  long barreled ... even double barreled (rare) .. all shotguns are descendants not just hunting shotgun

 

sawed off shotgun with original barrel lenght  is basically hunting shotgun

military upgrade to  provide much more damage ?  you mean sticker with uncle sam to double damage output ?

 

 

59 minutes ago, Solomon said:

 

For example we could have had a full auto mod for shotguns but that would certainly push some people over the edge so the pimps had to design a full auto shotgun.

Same goes for all other ideas.

because making full auto pistol is rather simple change in mechanism ?  but you cant easily bypass pump mechanism ?

auto shotguns have completely different loading mechanism so thanks god they didnt give us magic mod for that

59 minutes ago, Solomon said:

I mean let me ask you what can i do to get an Uzi in this game? 

 

I would need a magazine extender what lets me put 40-50 rounds in the magazine and a full auto mod along with a high firerate mod to get the same deal. Its just not possible without designing a brand new weapon.

 well if you stick  full auto trigger  mod and  drum magazine mod  you will have   50+  magazine  full auto  9 mm smg  quite easily  and fire rate  mod is basically standard   any smg  / ak

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1 hour ago, alanea said:

well they chosen tiers so why not ...   what you want ?    running around endgame with blunderbuss  thats  as strong as auto shotgun ?

Not at all, i just want the style of the weapons kept for endgame so i dont just throw out all my shotguns the moment i get the auto one because that is better by default.

 

1 hour ago, alanea said:

military upgrade to  provide much more damage ?  you mean sticker with uncle sam to double damage output ?

It gone from single barrel to double so it kind of deals more damage.

 

1 hour ago, alanea said:

because making full auto pistol is rather simple change in mechanism ?  but you cant easily bypass pump mechanism ?

auto shotguns have completely different loading mechanism so thanks god they didnt give us magic mod for that

well if you stick  full auto trigger  mod and  drum magazine mod  you will have   50+  magazine  full auto  9 mm smg  quite easily  and fire rate  mod is basically standard   any smg  / ak

Its not really that hard, the main problem is that theres no loader mechanism the pumping loads in the ammo but that could be replaced just as simply as you would do it on a 9mm.

 

Also we dont have a full auto trigger mod, even the burst mod is ridicolous on the weapon already, put on the drum magazine and something for the firerate and we reached a point where it would been better to just create an Uzi ingame.

 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, leaderdog said:

I'll admit I have no idea if you just made up those names or if their for specific games :)

 

I think the difference is context of the game. i've mentioned this several times in likely multiple threads.  We're shortly after the end of the world otherwise most buildings wouldn't have power.  Why would a store not have modern weapons? 

 

In rpg games, they're made that way and always have been, however, there are also TONNES of RPG games that you can buy on day one the uber swords if you have the money.  However, you don't likely have the money nor are you going to have the money for a very long time.  Although, in many rpg games you still may not have the strength or ability to wield such powerful weapons, or magics.  That logic we can deal with.  Also the level restriction for using the weapons is another reason I just plain got bored of rpg games.  World of Warcraft was like that, specific swords having a level restriction right on it and you could just carry it around in your backpack until you finally hit the specific level. 

 

The RPG games that show you OP weapons at the trader also make absolutely sure you can't buy them. All these RPGs make sure you have for example about 5000 gold in your pocket when you are level 8. And guess what weapons can be bought for 5000 gold? Weapons suitable for level 8. Only later in those games you tend to swim in money (and are too high level) because the game has to be balanced for people who just follow the main quest, a problem most RPGs just accept as unsolvable. But you still can't really buy OP weapons because the cost function increases exponential to make sure you never can just buy a sword made for someone 5 levels higher than you are.

 

But you already know this as well. This type of window dressing without actually having a game-play relevevant impact depends on a very constricted money pool. At the moment the trader in 7D2D still has OP weapons and the money pool is not constricted.  When the 7D2D developers are convinced they have closed all easy money-making loopholes they don't need to change that part of the game at all. We'll see what happens.

 

But we are talking about immersion. You say you can deal with a logic where you can't even wield specific weapons because of strength. Well, it works with strength, but what about the mage that can't use a rapier, AT ALL. I don't think that could be explained away.

There are abstractions we simply have accepted over time and don't view as problematic for immersion anymore, but new abstractions, like when a new alpha comes around the corner, need time before they get the same status.

 

And there are a lot of abstractions most players don't even think anymore about in 7D2D: We accept a lot of physics specialities in 7D2D, for example SI rules, falling from greater heights as usual (yes, even without candy), strange medicine (everything can be cured basically in a day), the world being blocky, loot respawning, you can't wear two shirts over each other, crafting in your backpack!!, ...

 

This is not a simulation. It was never advertised as a simulation and complaints about this being no simulation are rather useless. If you want a simulation, there are other survival games out there that put more importance on this.

 

I hate WoW's method as well, especially because in later installments you couldn't do quest above your level anymore even if the quests on your level were frustratingly easy.

 

Quote

 

This game is different.  It's you, in a world that has ended while we already have guns and what not around.  We're not trying to get the latest r7-2000 Laser rifle because that's just not a thing.  A shotgun is, a rifle is, and so are Ak-47's apparently since we're basing this game in the states.  So if a trader didn't have firearms, they're either all sold out or not a very good trader.  And using any of these weapons shouldn't be a restriction as a shotgun blast to the face of a zombie if you are 12 years old or 50 years old will have the same result... unless you miss for some bizarre reason.  Your "skill" with that weapon doesn't determine the damage it does, the weapon and the shell do.  As long as you're capable of aiming it and maintaining that aim the gun does the rest.

 

Now if you go to the trader and see mainly stone weapons and tools, that's a dumb dumb game decision for this type of game.  This is not a Real Time Strategy game, we're not dumping crap loads of research into a science division that will magically (or sciencely) break a barrier and allow for us to get the next tier or weapons or technology.  That's just simply not a good mechanic for 7d2d.

 

No, there is a lot of magic or occult stuff happening in 7D2D. Starting with the very obviously occult blood moon visible in the sky every 7 days.

 

The stone stuff put lots of people on the barricades just like the availability of OP weapons on day 1 in A18 put a lot of people on the barricades, the first remedy has already been announced. We will get pipe weapons. Is that very realistic? No, not really. Is it a good mechanic? I'd say it is definitely better than AK on day 1.

 

It is clear the direction of the game is not to your liking. But RPG as part of the mix was always planned for this game from the time of the kickstarter. For a simulation a lot of features in the game are not a good mechanic. For an RPG-zombie-survival-tower-defense game they are. You have to agree to disagree with the developers here.

 

Quote

 

I get the pimps are trying to add all these rpg elements to the game.  hell I don't even use the candy I think they're stupid.  It's really moving from a survival game into the not sure how but I feel so much better at bartering with this here candy in my mouth and this cigar.  To me, these elements don't make a better game, they make the game feel silly.

 

But each to their own.  I can avoid using them.  You may feel you need to use it or like these elements.

 

And 7d2d is quickly as you said "moving towards where every other game already is."  And that is the problem.  It's losing it's uniqueness and become lame copies of these other games that have been done to death.  It was a shining example of a great game already,  they just needed to flesh out some things and add content.  But here we are, trying to be like everyone else.  That's boring.  That sucks.  Go be you the best damn Barney you can be. ;)

 

I disagree. 7D2D was already very near to where most of the survival simulation games were. The uniqueness and novelty of 7D2D was its mix of genres (especially its voxel-based building). It is the shortcoming of other survival games that they feel rather limited.

 

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)

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1 hour ago, Solomon said:

Not at all, i just want the style of the weapons kept for endgame so i dont just throw out all my shotguns the moment i get the auto one because that is better by default.

you could argue for making stone shovels equal to  steel ones .... or iron pickaxe to auger

1 hour ago, Solomon said:

It gone from single barrel to double so it kind of deals more damage.

iam no expert  but i bet making one barreled shotgun to double is more than amateur  weapon mod  made from ductape and some steel or ductaping  flashlight  .. or exchanging spring ... 7 days style of custom  shotgun would be ductaping  two pump shotguns together :D

1 hour ago, Solomon said:

Its not really that hard, the main problem is that theres no loader mechanism the pumping loads in the ammo but that could be replaced just as simply as you would do it on a 9mm.

smells like  completely exchanging every complicated mechanism of shotgun .... leaving you just with original piperather than " minor modification " done by average post apocalypse amateur

1 hour ago, Solomon said:

 

Also we dont have a full auto trigger mod, even the burst mod is ridicolous on the weapon already, put on the drum magazine and something for the firerate and we reached a point where it would been better to just create an Uzi ingame.

 

hmm we dont ?  sorry then .. i never used those i know we have semi auto and burst so i kinda assumed full auto as well

but honestly  .. burst is far more effective

33 minutes ago, meganoth said:

No, there is a lot of magic or occult stuff happening in 7D2D. Starting with the very obviously occult blood moon visible in the sky every 7 days.

seeing all the strange labs ... vile cellars or rooms full of bodies under 50%  innocently looking houses in  7 days makes me quite sure there is ongoing pact with satan , virgin sacrifices and significant  amount of drugs involved in development

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46 minutes ago, alanea said:

you could argue for making stone shovels equal to  steel ones .... or iron pickaxe to auger

Honestly stone shovels shouldnt exist. Its something what was never made, no ancestor of us ever created a stone shovel, they used wood shovels.

48 minutes ago, alanea said:

iam no expert  but i bet making one barreled shotgun to double is more than amateur  weapon mod  made from ductape and some steel or ductaping  flashlight  .. or exchanging spring ... 7 days style of custom  shotgun would be ductaping  two pump shotguns together

Now that you say it i can kind of see it, just tape two together and you have double action.

48 minutes ago, alanea said:

smells like  completely exchanging every complicated mechanism of shotgun .... leaving you just with original piperather than " minor modification " done by average post apocalypse amateur

But thats the same with a pistol!

Even turning a semi-auto into self repeating kind of replaces the entire mechanics of the pistol leaving only the barrel and the magazine the same.

50 minutes ago, alanea said:

hmm we dont ?  sorry then .. i never used those i know we have semi auto and burst so i kinda assumed full auto as well

but honestly  .. burst is far more effective

Sadly we dont, i wanted one for long.

 

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On 8/20/2020 at 2:04 PM, seagas said:

I rather like the new system, we're playing a zombie apocalypse game on a computer, after all. So nothing like this IRL so suspension  of disbelief is minimal at best. As for chest and crates, I put a marker on the map, on all of the Working Stiffs, Shotgun Messiah boxes and large safes and head to them when my game stage is higher. I just started a new save with stable release and I think it adds more to immersion as IRL, the best stuff has already been looted by other survivors and I have to build up to higher levels. If you want easy win, just spawn in what you want and carry-on.

I freaking hate this argument. This argument has zero logical reasoning behind it. In what apocalypse would it make sense that a world that has maybe 5 or six survivors in it, somehow has a store clerk restocking absolutely every lootbox in existence? That's not a survival element. If a store had been picked clean by day 1, there wouldn't be anything good on day 50. Immersion suggests you don't find a disconnect between the in-game logic and real world logic. This line varies between players. I have trouble imagining that there's any immersion to be had in looking at a gamestage number to determine if you should loot a gun store or not. 

 

Nobody wants an easy win. They just want looting to matter. The Fun Pimps aren't fostering new ideas in gameplay. They are forcing a more linear form of gameplay into an open world game. Every game prior to this was different based on loot. I rarely use shotguns but there were playthroughs built around them due to early game looting. That doesn't mean I found them on day 1, just that I found them before day 7. People used to have drop bases. Now nobody does. Nobody looted, so they changed progression to incentivize looting....that was a few alphas ago. Then this happens and they killed looting.

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On 8/22/2020 at 7:11 PM, leaderdog said:

And 7d2d is quickly as you said "moving towards where every other game already is."  And that is the problem.  It's losing it's uniqueness and become lame copies of these other games that have been done to death.  It was a shining example of a great game already,  they just needed to flesh out some things and add content.  But here we are, trying to be like everyone else.  That's boring.  That sucks.  Go be you the best damn Barney you can be. ;)

You say this and yet we still get new players as of A19 who after playing 7 Days to Die a bit tell us that it is the most unique experience they have ever had. Now, granted, some of them never played Minecraft probably but that really is the defining difference between 7 Days to Die and most other open world games. It is the way the genres mix with each other and the fact that you are not restricted from going anywhere you can see in the world, inside any building, dig deep, destroy everything (except the trader compounds) and find your own goals in the world. The nitty gritty details of what the trader sells or doesn't sell at what stage of the game are not going to keep this game unique or turn it into every other game. 

 

Plus, for details of this nature, there have been a lot of RPGs for many years and there is a reason why certain conventions are used over and over and over again. They work. Sure its great fun to get powerful guns early on and stay well ahead of the enemy progression curve for the entire game...wtf...that's not fun at all. It is boring and predictible and unbalanced as hell. The Day 7 and Day 14 hordes haven't been fun since the blood moon horde has been in the game because with AK47s and Pump Shotguns and Sniper Rifles they were a breeze-- over before you knew it you could kill them so fast. The first Day 7 horde I played that was actually fun was where I had a blunderbus, primitive bow, several spears, and a club. 

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2 hours ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

I freaking hate this argument. This argument has zero logical reasoning behind it. In what apocalypse would it make sense that a world that has maybe 5 or six survivors in it, somehow has a store clerk restocking absolutely every lootbox in existence? That's not a survival element. If a store had been picked clean by day 1, there wouldn't be anything good on day 50. Immersion suggests you don't find a disconnect between the in-game logic and real world logic.

Then turn off loot respawn. Loot respawn is simply a mechanic to keep a world from being completely picked clean when players start on a server that is already on Day 90. For SP you probably should by default have loot respawn turned off. The devs are certainly not trying to stretch any logic. They just acknowledge that by necessity depending on how long you run your game and how many people are playing through that might need loot respawn. For the player that revisits a place already looted that can be jarring but for the new player to a server who enters a city and is able to loot at all it is a welcome mechanic.

2 hours ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

I have trouble imagining that there's any immersion to be had in looking at a gamestage number to determine if you should loot a gun store or not. 

I agree. Reading patch notes and analyzing code really does ruin the magic. Better to not think of such things and just loot and not worry about it. When my brother and I loot our first town it is all primitive stuff plus welcome schematics, components, and the rare pistol in a toilet or parts for better weapons that we save up. By time we get to our next town there is much better stuff and we are out of the primitive stage. Looking behind the curtain and then basing your gameplay on that seems like it will be fun at first but it always disappoints in the long term.

 

2 hours ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

Nobody wants an easy win. They just want looting to matter. The Fun Pimps aren't fostering new ideas in gameplay. They are forcing a more linear form of gameplay into an open world game. Every game prior to this was different based on loot. I rarely use shotguns but there were playthroughs built around them due to early game looting. That doesn't mean I found them on day 1, just that I found them before day 7. People used to have drop bases. Now nobody does. Nobody looted, so they changed progression to incentivize looting....that was a few alphas ago. Then this happens and they killed looting.

It is so interesting to hear THE LOOTERS howling right now about their game being ruined and acting as though this is it for the game. It was just last alpha right after A18 went stable that we had to read THE CRAFTERS howling about how their game was ruined because the game was all about looting now and obviously the devs hated players who like crafting. This is the characteristic of balancing. The pendulum swings back and forth and the devs fine tune over time. This version we have right now is temporary. Things will settle into a nice groove that will be good for looters and for crafters-- or at least that's the plan. Crafters are happier now because they are crafting their own weapons because there is time to do so before you find one better than you can craft anyway. But they were mad before. See? Looters are mad now but in a coming day they will be happier. 

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9 minutes ago, Roland said:

It is so interesting to hear THE LOOTERS howling right now about their game being ruined and acting as though this is it for the game. It was just last alpha right after A18 went stable that we had to read THE CRAFTERS howling about how their game was ruined because the game was all about looting now and obviously the devs hated players who like crafting. This is the characteristic of balancing. The pendulum swings back and forth and the devs fine tune over time. This version we have right now is temporary. Things will settle into a nice groove that will be good for looters and for crafters-- or at least that's the plan. Crafters are happier now because they are crafting their own weapons because there is time to do so before you find one better than you can craft anyway. But they were mad before. See? Looters are mad now but in a coming day they will be happier. 

I gotta say that i agree with both sides.

 

Crafting is only valuable now because looting is gutted and looting was only valuable because crafting was gutted. This game never really found that golden line of balance where crafting and looting exists simultenously.

 

The item parts for example dont help, all they do is to push people more into looting what in result gets you the preferred item faster than crafting it. Now its the other way around.

 

I think the most ideal solution would be to be able to craft item parts while also decreasing the amount of actual weapons you can find. Like we use the A18 looting system or just make it full random but tone done all weapon drops by 50%. This would make the crafters happy as they can make items from scratch and the looters would still have access to plentyful stuff to get but instead of 1 big lootbox, 1 weapon bag and 3 boxes they would find only 1 big lootbox and 1 box.

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1 hour ago, Solomon said:

Crafting is only valuable now because looting is gutted and looting was only valuable because crafting was gutted. This game never really found that golden line of balance where crafting and looting exists simultenously.

There is no golden line. Crafting and looting will always step on each other's toes and you can not separate them.

 

Some things cannot be crafted to give players like me the incentive to loot. But until A19 the incentive to craft something was missing and with the new progress system this incentive has been created. According to the Fun Pimps' plan for A20, scavengers will have the option to find higher quality gear early in the game but they will have to take a risk.


 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

I freaking hate this argument. This argument has zero logical reasoning behind it. In what apocalypse would it make sense that a world that has maybe 5 or six survivors in it, somehow has a store clerk restocking absolutely every lootbox in existence? That's not a survival element. If a store had been picked clean by day 1, there wouldn't be anything good on day 50. Immersion suggests you don't find a disconnect between the in-game logic and real world logic. This line varies between players. I have trouble imagining that there's any immersion to be had in looking at a gamestage number to determine if you should loot a gun store or not. 

nope its not immersive and no one ever said it is .... but if you want loot progression its a must

loot have to respawn or world  turn into more and more boring and empty every day until theres nothing to do ... most open world games use some respawn mechanic and its rarely immersive but gameplay>immersion

and with default  30 days respawning loot theres no reason to not loot anything gun store will yield usefull stuff even on day  1  soo why not loot it on  both   1 and 31   instead waiting to  30   before you loot it

if you wanted be immersive there would be just  simple containers with bad stuff and then boom  gunsafe with all those high tier shotguns  and rocket launchers   unbreakable .. requiring lockpick skill you can get lets say on level 50+ would be that any different ?  now you can atleast loot early stuff early llateš stuff late ...   instead sadly watching safe  with no means to crack it  (and this is simply approach of most open world RPGs to  enforce progression)

Quote

Nobody wants an easy win. They just want looting to matter. The Fun Pimps aren't fostering new ideas in gameplay. They are forcing a more linear form of gameplay into an open world game. Every game prior to this was different based on loot. I rarely use shotguns but there were playthroughs built around them due to early game looting. That doesn't mean I found them on day 1, just that I found them before day 7. People used to have drop bases. Now nobody does. Nobody looted, so they changed progression to incentivize looting....that was a few alphas ago. Then this happens and they killed looting.

well  looting matter if it givesd you  any upgrade to your gear tier 5  stone shovel is far better than tier 2 stone shovel you have  lot of people is just spoiled by previous alphas   wherefirst thing after spawning and making   wooden club was  plundering working stiff tools / shotgun messiah  shop and leaving with  full iron/steel  gear .. and bunch of guns

you can still loot advanced stuff now ... but with alot lower chance... and usually low quality .... insult for those folks demanding Q 4-6 steel on day  1  .. in fact loot progression is step in good way people just need time to get used to it

they just took chocolate from child and gave him normal food ... ofc it cries around

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

There is no golden line. Crafting and looting will always step on each other's toes and you can not separate them.

 

Some things cannot be crafted to give players like me the incentive to loot. But until A19 the incentive to craft something was missing and with the new progress system this incentive has been created. According to the Fun Pimps' plan for A20, scavengers will have the option to find higher quality gear early in the game but they will have to take a risk.

scavengers can  find  tier 4-6  "primitive" tools/weapons  from day  1  crafters need quite high level to do them (6 impossible  5 = 7 str + 4x perk ) thats hmm  lvl  13 with  100%  focus on that

crafting iron tools require  forge+ workbench  there crafters can catch up because tier 4+ iron tools  commonly appear   roughtly at day  14+    .. every advanced gun .. and correct me if iam wrong but steel tools as well require recipes  + ofc parts ... so to craft them you have to be mix both of scavenger and crafter anyway

 in  a18  everyone just easily looted  iron  /steel tools  ofter before even getting forge :D

.... people can hate  me but i definitely see loot change as positive thing as farming first horde with tier 5 smg was awkward

 

maybe we should be finsing alot less completed tools / weapons in favor of parts required to make them

and ... iron tools should be locked behind parts(not rare ofc) too now they are easy to get once you have forge .. making basic tools  obsolete in first days and creating huge gap between iron and steel tools ... in obtainability

Edited by alanea (see edit history)

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The "old" system where you could find any kind of loot on any day was bad. There are a lot of tools / weapons and other stuff that is not meant to be used at an early stage without changing the game completely. The current, more linear system feels much better in my opinion. I'd still call it very frustrating and flawed because finding your 100th stone tool in sealed crates or even weapon safes sucks. The good thing is that TFP are aware of that and promised some changes to loot progression where you are able to get better rewards with more effort invested. Not easy to find the happe medium, though.

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2 hours ago, alanea said:

scavengers can  find  tier 4-6  "primitive" tools/weapons  from day  1  crafters need quite high level to do them (6 impossible  5 = 7 str + 4x perk ) thats hmm  lvl  13 with  100%  focus on that

I honestly did not pay that much attention to that. I crafted what I needed and was happy when I found an upgrade.

2 hours ago, alanea said:

crafting iron tools require  forge+ workbench  there crafters can catch up because tier 4+ iron tools  commonly appear   roughtly at day  14+    .. every advanced gun .. and correct me if iam wrong but steel tools as well require recipes  + ofc parts ... so to craft them you have to be mix both of scavenger and crafter anyway

You can craft iron tools without a workbench and yes, for steel tools you need parts and a schematic. So you can't get along without looting. But I don't think that's bad.

 

What I have read so far about the plans for A20 gives scavengers a small advantage when they take a risk. They can also loot the simple POIs but then they will only find what corresponds to their normal gamestage. So I think it does justice to both sides.

 

I will probably work my way up in A20 just like I did in A19 and not rush things.

2 hours ago, alanea said:

 in  a18  everyone just easily looted  iron  /steel tools  ofter before even getting forge :D

.... people can hate  me but i definitely see loot change as positive thing as farming first horde with tier 5 smg was awkward

I agree. I fought the first horde in A18 with a Q6 hunting rifle. For comparison, in A15 I fought the day 21 horde with a bow.

In A19, I fought the first horde with a stone sledgehammer and a blunderbuss and it was fun. I felt almost like the time when you had to use whatever was available.

 

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6 hours ago, PoloPoPo said:

The "old" system where you could find any kind of loot on any day was bad. There are a lot of tools / weapons and other stuff that is not meant to be used at an early stage without changing the game completely. The current, more linear system feels much better in my opinion. I'd still call it very frustrating and flawed because finding your 100th stone tool in sealed crates or even weapon safes sucks. The good thing is that TFP are aware of that and promised some changes to loot progression where you are able to get better rewards with more effort invested. Not easy to find the happe medium, though.

well if yhey introduce some  low quality  rusty/damaged tools  with stats of stone ones it solves this " immersion issue"

 

maybe we could get more resources as well instead tools itself .... people would like more 1 shovel and  some concrete mixes/ forged iron/steel instead 3x shovel

4 hours ago, RipClaw said:

I honestly did not pay that much attention to that. I crafted what I needed and was happy when I found an upgrade.

You can craft iron tools without a workbench and yes, for steel tools you need parts and a schematic. So you can't get along without looting. But I don't think that's bad.

well thats how it should work

4 hours ago, RipClaw said:

I will probably work my way up in A20 just like I did in A19 and not rush things.

I agree. I fought the first horde in A18 with a Q6 hunting rifle. For comparison, in A15 I fought the day 21 horde with a bow.

In A19, I fought the first horde with a stone sledgehammer and a blunderbuss and it was fun. I felt almost like the time when you had to use whatever was available.

its definitely more amusing than a18 t5  high tier  guns  with close to unlimited ammo  by day  7

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10 hours ago, Roland said:

It is so interesting to hear THE LOOTERS howling right now about their game being ruined and acting as though this is it for the game. It was just last alpha right after A18 went stable that we had to read THE CRAFTERS howling about how their game was ruined because the game was all about looting now and obviously the devs hated players who like crafting. This is the characteristic of balancing. The pendulum swings back and forth and the devs fine tune over time. This version we have right now is temporary. Things will settle into a nice groove that will be good for looters and for crafters-- or at least that's the plan. Crafters are happier now because they are crafting their own weapons because there is time to do so before you find one better than you can craft anyway. But they were mad before.

I'm one of those people who were discussing the state of crafting in A18 and didn't like it. I surely weren't mad, I just shared my opinion and in general I don't get why critique in online forums always gets labeled as crying, howling, being mad or whatever. Yes, some people have a pretty aggressive tone, but most people don't. However that's not what I want to talk about, I just had to mention it, since you make it look like no matter what TFP does, people will hunt them with their pitchforks and that's just not how it is. At least for most people.

Going for my actual point: When we were discussing the state of crafting in A18 I always had the feeling you didn't really get my point. Now with what you said here, I'm even more conviced that you didn't understand me. I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion again, but I feel very misrepresented by your paragraph and want to clarify my take on it:
Just because I want crafting to be part of the game, doesn't mean I want looting to be of no or less importance. On the contrary, I want looting to be more important than crafting. Looting should be more powerful on any weapon, tool and clothing you are not specialised in. Looting should also play a role for crafting, so you can't just stay in your base day in day out and have the best gear after some time without seeing a zombie once.
What I don't want is looting being as overpowered in terms of early progression as it was in A18. TFP changed that with the new progression system and while many people don't like that and I as well see flaws in it (I'd rather fix them than going back), it got rid of that problem.
I also don't want crafting to lose it's competitiveness in the end game, but as you and madmole stated, it will stay that way, since madmole want at least one higher quality level for looting than crafting.
Before going for my third point I'd like to combine those two points into I'd love to see crafting being competitive from the first to the last day on the slots you are specialised in (maybe a tiny bit stronger in early and mid game for rpg purposes) and looting being stronger on any other slot.
My third point is, as I mentioned before, that I actually want looting to be part of the crafting process of higher tiers, so you can't craft everything from the safety of your base. That part was already done in A18 with the weapon parts. Those weapon parts already prevent players from spam crafting and thus I fail to understand why crafting has to have a lower quality level than looting. You could easily balance crafting versus looting by changing the amount of weapon parts needed and thus allow crafting to be on par.
The game already had two ways of balancing crafting. The first one is limiting you to those slots you are specialised on and the second is limiting the amount of crafts you can do. I don't understand why crafting on top of that has to have a lower quality level in endgame. That part didn't change (as far as I know, I didn't reach endgame in A19 yet). So the most important part of my critique still stands. Therefor I don't feel "happier now" as you stated. I still think the planned system where crafting falls behind looting in endgame is a bad design. I also still don't craft in early and mid game, since I did find stone tools of the same quality as I could craft, iron tools are not well balanced and I don't have enough tool parts for steel tools (since you can't craft lower qualities than the max you learned).

But I have to correct myself a bit. I feel happier now, just not as a crafter. Crafting (tools, weapons, clothing) still is in a bad spot imho and the direction it's heading for still doesn't make sense to me. I'm still happier overall, since a slower progression is something I wanted as well. The current design has it flaws, as is already discussed in this and other threads, but it's still a step forward for me. I really hated the fast progression we had before.

tl,dr: I don't really see the pendulum analogy working here. As a "crafter" (not that I would label myself that way, but I was discussing in favor of crafting) I didn't feel overly happy in A17, weren't completely happy in A18 and am not excited in A19. I like all three alphas and always felt like the game made more steps forward than backward. I just feel like the game already has all the tools to make crafting and looting interesting and not only coexist, but even complete each other and still the long term goal is to make crafting (tools, weapons, clothing) subpar in the endgame, which I just don't understand at all. And since it's a long term goal, it's not bound to any alpha, so changes between alphas probably won't change what I think about that goal and thus won't make me more or less happy regarding that goal.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Jihh said:

I'm one of those people who were discussing the state of crafting in A18 and didn't like it. I surely weren't mad, I just shared my opinion and in general I don't get why critique in online forums always gets labeled as crying, howling, being mad or whatever. Yes, some people have a pretty aggressive tone, but most people don't. However that's not what I want to talk about, I just had to mention it, since you make it look like no matter what TFP does, people will hunt them with their pitchforks and that's just not how it is. At least for most people.

Going for my actual point: When we were discussing the state of crafting in A18 I always had the feeling you didn't really get my point. Now with what you said here, I'm even more conviced that you didn't understand me. I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion again, but I feel very misrepresented by your paragraph and want to clarify my take on it:
Just because I want crafting to be part of the game, doesn't mean I want looting to be of no or less importance. On the contrary, I want looting to be more important than crafting. Looting should be more powerful on any weapon, tool and clothing you are not specialised in. Looting should also play a role for crafting, so you can't just stay in your base day in day out and have the best gear after some time without seeing a zombie once.
What I don't want is looting being as overpowered in terms of early progression as it was in A18. TFP changed that with the new progression system and while many people don't like that and I as well see flaws in it (I'd rather fix them than going back), it got rid of that problem.
I also don't want crafting to lose it's competitiveness in the end game, but as you and madmole stated, it will stay that way, since madmole want at least one higher quality level for looting than crafting.
Before going for my third point I'd like to combine those two points into I'd love to see crafting being competitive from the first to the last day on the slots you are specialised in (maybe a tiny bit stronger in early and mid game for rpg purposes) and looting being stronger on any other slot.
My third point is, as I mentioned before, that I actually want looting to be part of the crafting process of higher tiers, so you can't craft everything from the safety of your base. That part was already done in A18 with the weapon parts. Those weapon parts already prevent players from spam crafting and thus I fail to understand why crafting has to have a lower quality level than looting. You could easily balance crafting versus looting by changing the amount of weapon parts needed and thus allow crafting to be on par.
The game already had two ways of balancing crafting. The first one is limiting you to those slots you are specialised on and the second is limiting the amount of crafts you can do. I don't understand why crafting on top of that has to have a lower quality level in endgame. That part didn't change (as far as I know, I didn't reach endgame in A19 yet). So the most important part of my critique still stands. Therefor I don't feel "happier now" as you stated. I still think the planned system where crafting falls behind looting in endgame is a bad design. I also still don't craft in early and mid game, since I did find stone tools of the same quality as I could craft, iron tools are not well balanced and I don't have enough tool parts for steel tools (since you can't craft lower qualities than the max you learned).

But I have to correct myself a bit. I feel happier now, just not as a crafter. Crafting (tools, weapons, clothing) still is in a bad spot imho and the direction it's heading for still doesn't make sense to me. I'm still happier overall, since a slower progression is something I wanted as well. The current design has it flaws, as is already discussed in this and other threads, but it's still a step forward for me. I really hated the fast progression we had before.

tl,dr: I don't really see the pendulum analogy working here. As a "crafter" (not that I would label myself that way, but I was discussing in favor of crafting) I didn't feel overly happy in A17, weren't completely happy in A18 and am not excited in A19. I like all three alphas and always felt like the game made more steps forward than backward. I just feel like the game already has all the tools to make crafting and looting interesting and not only coexist, but even complete each other and still the long term goal is to make crafting (tools, weapons, clothing) subpar in the endgame, which I just don't understand at all. And since it's a long term goal, it's not bound to any alpha, so changes between alphas probably won't change what I think about that goal and thus won't make me more or less happy regarding that goal.

I didn't mean to imply that EVERYONE was howling. But there was definitely several days of howling then-- just as there definitely is some howling now even if not everyone is doing it. And really, the people who were then and are now howling seem to also think that the game is going to be ruined forever because what we have is TFP's best and final offering. As you said, things have improved in some ways since A18 for crafters even if not all your concerns have been fixed. The same is true now for people who are unhappy about the loot progression. It will get better according to TFP's plan.

 

As to me not supposedly understanding your point lets see if I can restate it accurately. You can correct me as necessary.

 

Your main contention back then was that purple was made to be uncraftable which put crafting at a disadvantage to looting during the endgame since the only path to acquiring the best was through looting. You would like for crafting and looting to be evenly represented in the game so that players can choose to craft the best and/or loot the best and it bothers you that crafting stops short at quality 5. You also believe that looting is still an important part of crafting as that is where crafting components should largely come from so you are not calling for a huge nerf to looting all just to benefit crafting. You see that both have their roles. You enjoy the slower progression now but just knowing that you will eventually hit that crafting limit and will only be able to loot is still incredibly frustrating. 

 

Am I picking up what you're putting down? If so then I would be happy to hopefully alleviate some of your fears and frustrations. If not please clarify where I got it wrong.

Edited by Roland (see edit history)

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On 8/23/2020 at 4:13 PM, meganoth said:

The RPG games that show you OP weapons at the trader also make absolutely sure you can't buy them. All these RPGs make sure you have for example about 5000 gold in your pocket when you are level 8. And guess what weapons can be bought for 5000 gold? Weapons suitable for level 8. Only later in those games you tend to swim in money (and are too high level) because the game has to be balanced for people who just follow the main quest, a problem most RPGs just accept as unsolvable.

A good RPG gates players in seamless, clever ways, which is a far cry from how 7D handles this.

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45 minutes ago, Roland said:

I didn't mean to imply that EVERYONE was howling.

I dislike those terms in general, since they are too broadly used and most often aren't limited to actual cases. I feel like even if someone is crying, it would be better to be diplomatic about it.

 

49 minutes ago, Roland said:

You can correct me as necessary.

I'd say it's good so far. I didn't feel you were that close in understanding my points back in A18. But I added more details and other things as well. Let's stay with where we are now, because that's the main part.

 

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13 hours ago, Roland said:

You say this and yet we still get new players as of A19 who after playing 7 Days to Die a bit tell us that it is the most unique experience they have ever had. Now, granted, some of them never played Minecraft probably but that really is the defining difference between 7 Days to Die and most other open world games. It is the way the genres mix with each other and the fact that you are not restricted from going anywhere you can see in the world, inside any building, dig deep, destroy everything (except the trader compounds) and find your own goals in the world. The nitty gritty details of what the trader sells or doesn't sell at what stage of the game are not going to keep this game unique or turn it into every other game. 

 

Plus, for details of this nature, there have been a lot of RPGs for many years and there is a reason why certain conventions are used over and over and over again. They work. Sure its great fun to get powerful guns early on and stay well ahead of the enemy progression curve for the entire game...wtf...that's not fun at all. It is boring and predictible and unbalanced as hell. The Day 7 and Day 14 hordes haven't been fun since the blood moon horde has been in the game because with AK47s and Pump Shotguns and Sniper Rifles they were a breeze-- over before you knew it you could kill them so fast. The first Day 7 horde I played that was actually fun was where I had a blunderbus, primitive bow, several spears, and a club. 

The trader isn't why I said that.  The fact that 7d2d keeps bringing in rpg elements just like every other game.  The voxel destroy everything is awesome no question, the problem is more the continual trying to limit the player either by level gating (which met lots of opposition) skill tree gating (met lots of opposition) and several other things that drag it down and slow the progression.  Again I've never thought this game needed progression or any of that since if you have an imagination, and yes I know - far too many today don't, there is no end to the kind of fun you can have.

 

The gamestage was brought in originally to aid with multiplayer play.  So players that join an already running server wouldn't all of a sudden have a day 56 horde on their hands and get frustrated.  Now it's taken on a life of it's own.  I'm glad they'll be moving to zonees that will be gamestage set... I'm hoping.  so example you go to a large military base and the gamestage of that "zone" is 120.  So it's challenging just to step on that base...  but I sure hope they don't have a blind barrier that will prevent you from going in.  It should be your choice if you want to go in and try and stealth it or get wrecked in the process.  But if they're going to just hand you stone axes or whatever the new pointless RTS early stage weapons are, it will be seriously disappointing.

 

As for newbies enjoying it.  That's awesome.  And aside from a few current annoyances I'm enjoying the game greatly... But I have to mod it so I have a zombie filled world and remove the terrible early stage loot nonsense.. I know you've said it's temporary, but seriously, that was a poor decision to release it in this state.  It makes starting over (without mods) very boring.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Roland said:

I don't understand why crafting on top of that has to have a lower quality level in endgame.

because they clearly mean to kmove top tier  gear in  top tier POIs  only ( like dishong tower  and new tier 6 they talked about several times -  bandit camps ? )

 

crafting would 

1) allow  you to  craft +scrap to min max stats 

2) farm parts in  t1 poi and never bother with high poi

 

for now   early is mix of crafting  / looting  ... mid tier( iron tools)  crafting clearly wins  endgame  =Q6  loot only

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