Alpha 19 Loot System improvement

[guardianangelmp]

2 minutes ago, Boidster said:

I was referring to particular posts, not a general observation and certainly not meaning to ascribe any position to you, personally.

 

 

Eh, those people aren't min/max players then and don't know the current value of INT.

 

Hell, even in a18 INT was a joke tier cause everything in it you could get through schematics (max lucky looter) and the items you could craft from INT didn't have lvls (except junk turrets, but you'd get them from looting).

 

If you played with a group it'd be worth it to have the base mother spec into INT to get things running faster, but solo play your better of specing into the perk that has your weapon of choice (or str if you are more of a gatherer).

 

The quotes you just posted are playing INT as if they are still in a17, they aren't playing it for a19 (and didn't see where it said that "INT was one of only two useful trees in the game").

[meganoth]

7 minutes ago, guardianangelmp said:

There really is no decent stone age long range, or even medium range, weapon.  Primitive bow is trash tier now, blunderbuss is pretty much a close range 1v1-2 weapon, otherwise all other weapon choices are close range melee weapons (throwing the spear is a joke).

 

Maybe throw in a sling shot, or a stone sling, to get some more options for early game ranged weapons.

 

Even if you give access to lvl 1 hunting rifles and pistols a little earlier (or have those in the safes in early game), then tone down the ammo looting, it would be better.

 

Also, I totally agree that adding weapon/tool degradation back into the game, and very mildly lowering the threshold for loot tiers, would work well.  Sure, you may get guns earlier, but after 4-5 repairs it's permanently broken, worth 25 dukes, and gives 0-1 parts when scrapped. 

After the buff primitve bow is fantastic at long range (assuming here that at long range the zombie hasn't spotted us).

 

Also, did you know you can shoot a bow relatively fast for mid range run and gun if you let off the arrow in the middle of the drawing animation? Needs a bit practice and naturally you need lots of arrows for that.

 

I agree the spear throw is underwhelming.

 

[guardianangelmp]

1 minute ago, Roland said:

They already have plans for a pipe gun and pipe rifle. I’m not sure why you think throwing the spear is a joke. It is quite effective especially in combination with another weapon. I love to throw the spear and then switch to a sledge hammer or club. Or I’ll shoot a couple arrow into it and then throw the spear. Once you get an iron spear you can have a stone and iron spear that will return to their places on the tool belt and having two to throw is even better.  

 

 

My experience with throwing the spear is that it only goes 5-15 feet in a huge arc.  I don't find that useful for a long or mid range weapon, especially when you can't reload it from range; that's what I was referring to when I said throwing the spear is a joke (looks like a 5 yr old is throwing it).

[Roland]

1 minute ago, guardianangelmp said:

My experience with throwing the spear is that it only goes 5-15 feet in a huge arc.  I don't find that useful for a long or mid range weapon, especially when you can't reload it from range; that's what I was referring to when I said throwing the spear is a joke (looks like a 5 yr old is throwing it).

I started hunting deer with a spear because I wanted to see how long and how far the nav beacon would remain if the deer ran away with my spear stuck in it. 
 

I was able to hit them from a pretty good range—definitely before they started running away. The only problem is that the spear always one shotted the deer usually dismembering it depending on where it hit so I could never test it’s nav beacon. 

True, that you won’t be sniping zombies with a Speer throw but that’s kind of the definition of primitive weaponry. It is limited. Even the pistol and rifle they add hopefully won’t be very effective at long range 

[Kalen]

27 minutes ago, Roland said:

They already have plans for a pipe gun and pipe rifle.

 

 

I want a potato cannon for a primitive rocket launcher!

[guardianangelmp]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

I started hunting deer with a spear because I wanted to see how long and how far the nav beacon would remain if the deer ran away with my spear stuck in it. 
 

I was able to hit them from a pretty good range—definitely before they started running away. The only problem is that the spear always one shotted the deer usually dismembering it depending on where it hit so I could never test it’s nav beacon. 

True, that you won’t be sniping zombies with a Speer throw but that’s kind of the definition of primitive weaponry. It is limited. Even the pistol and rifle they add hopefully won’t be very effective at long range 

I'm happy that they are looking into more early game long range weapons and would hope the pipe pistol and rifle wouldn't be as effective as a t1 weapon....but the benefit would be you aren't throwing your weapon at the enemy (there by losing access to the long range weapon).

 

Could they make a mod for the spear called "rope" so I can tie it to the spear and it would allow me to retrieve the spear from a distance?

 

Or maybe an atlatl (Google it) mod that would increase throwing distance, decrease arc of the throw, and increase damage of the spear.

[manni44]

4 hours ago, guardianangelmp said:

Or maybe an atlatl (Google it) mod that would increase throwing distance, decrease arc of the throw, and increase damage of the spear.

I would love to see an atlatl in game 😍

[caatalyst]

I just hope A20 doesn't replace blunderbusses and primitive bows with pipe weapons when it comes to looting military or shotgun messiahs at low levels.

As I mentioned previously, surely it would be better that the POI determined the loot rather than the players game stage, level or perks. This would provide a much more organic looting and exploration experience. If you want a commercial tier gun then go loot shotgun messiah or if you want a military tier weapon then go loot a military site. Just make them damn hard so that low level players think twice about looting them (more zombies, high level zombies and traps etc).

Also make the quality level completely RNG with a very low chance to get Q3/Q4 and incredibly low chance to get Q5/Q6 as you would expected in a post-apocalyptic world - Regardless of the players level, the POI or game stage. As a way of balancing military tier weapons getting farmed early, make the low quality weapons perform significantly worse than they do now (prone to break, terrible accuracy or recoil control). Maybe there could be a small chance of getting a higher quality weapon at some of the end game POIs.

These changes would still allow players to get the guns they want early on but they are likely going to be terrible. The fact that quality is RNG and that the POI determines the loot would make the experience far less artificial and players would want to loot absolutely everything to increase their chances of finding a high quality weapon. IMO it will keep players engaged for longer as well while they explore and farm to find their Q6 loadout.

Yes this would mean there is a chance of getting Q5/Q6 AK on day 1 but in some ways that makes game play all the more exciting because this brings back some of the RNG. All that needs to be done is balance the POIs and quality RNG in order to make this incredibly difficult.

 

 

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, caatalyst said:

I just hope A20 doesn't replace blunderbusses and primitive bows with pipe weapons when it comes to looting military or shotgun messiahs at low levels.

As I mentioned previously, surely it would be better that the POI determined the loot rather than the players game stage, level or perks. This would provide a much more organic looting and exploration experience. If you want a commercial tier gun then go loot shotgun messiah or if you want a military tier weapon then go loot a military site. Just make them damn hard so that low level players think twice about looting them (more zombies, high level zombies and traps etc).

Also make the quality level completely RNG with a very low chance to get Q3/Q4 and incredibly low chance to get Q5/Q6 as you would expected in a post-apocalyptic world - Regardless of the players level, the POI or game stage. As a way of balancing military tier weapons getting farmed early, make the low quality weapons perform significantly worse than they do now (prone to break, terrible accuracy or recoil control). Maybe there could be a small chance of getting a higher quality weapon at some of the end game POIs.

These changes would still allow players to get the guns they want early on but they are likely going to be terrible. The fact that quality is RNG and that the POI determines the loot would make the experience far less artificial and players would want to loot absolutely everything to increase their chances of finding a high quality weapon. IMO it will keep players engaged for longer as well while they explore and farm to find their Q6 loadout.

Yes this would mean there is a chance of getting Q5/Q6 AK on day 1 but in some ways that makes game play all the more exciting because this brings back some of the RNG. All that needs to be done is balance the POIs and quality RNG in order to make this incredibly difficult.

 

 

The "make it incredibly difficult" part is not as easy as it sounds. I can kill any zombie, even glowies, with tier0 weapons and traps if I have time to prepare and know the layout of a POI. 7D2D needs a few more features before it is ready for challenges without cheap wins. Harder biomes coming in A20 is just one such change, but if you also want some hard POIs as standouts in easy biomes you need either radioactive zones or loot rooms protected by keys.

 

 

[Darelius]

Interesting answers so far - most didnt reply on the main post and drifted far away.

 

To be honest, i speedread the answers and maybe i overread something.

 

I agree, A18 was with "only" Lucky looter way too fast to get level 6 weapons, thats, why i voted for solution 2

 

I read the question, why some people are angry about stone tools looted, here is my answer:

Please leave your real life home and go shopping in a tool market and then in a weapon shop.

IF you find stone tools or wooden spears there, make photos and call us, then we all are aware of it: The were still sold

Especially the spears and Wooden Bows in army bases, thats what this theme is about!

To change the A19 Loot for this "special" loot containers to raise their "loot level" a bit.

As i wrote in the starting thread, it still makes me feel sick, when i am running with 2 friends into an army base with stone tools and wooden weapons level 1 to 2 and find in that army bunker (were missiles were stationed normally) other "wooden" weapons...

Yes, MGs, SMGs, snipers - all gone no problem, but a small pistol or something like that wold be perfect, even if its level 1 only!

Same in the tool shop - a normal tool shop (here in germany) has 20 to 30 shovels, iron and steel... normally, maybe some "other" but normally no "STONE" shovels

Thats, what im talking about and i think, most other players would agree to it.

 

By the way - playstyles in single player game and multiplayer game (in a party) and multiplayer game (alone) are three complete different styles!

Single player you have to defend against zombies only, multiplayer against other players (more dangerous than zombies most times!) and as a group you can "split" the fields of specialization. But even there ist it the same question: Why have the army Wooden spears in their bunkers? 🤣

 

 

...DX

[caatalyst]

19 hours ago, meganoth said:

The "make it incredibly difficult" part is not as easy as it sounds. I can kill any zombie, even glowies, with tier0 weapons and traps if I have time to prepare and know the layout of a POI. 7D2D needs a few more features before it is ready for challenges without cheap wins. Harder biomes coming in A20 is just one such change, but if you also want some hard POIs as standouts in easy biomes you need either radioactive zones or loot rooms protected by keys.

 

 

Of course and I know I didn't provide any specific solutions on how to make them more difficult but based on what the devs have hinted at, including the radiation and biome difficulty changes you've highlighted I think this could absolutely work. 

Even keys as you also suggested would be great as it's another system that encourages the player to play the game in a more organic manner (go out and explore to find them) so that they can access so juicy containers.

[Solomon]

On 8/3/2020 at 10:27 PM, guardianangelmp said:

Eh, those people aren't min/max players then and don't know the current value of INT.

 

Hell, even in a18 INT was a joke tier cause everything in it you could get through schematics (max lucky looter) and the items you could craft from INT didn't have lvls (except junk turrets, but you'd get them from looting).

 

If you played with a group it'd be worth it to have the base mother spec into INT to get things running faster, but solo play your better of specing into the perk that has your weapon of choice (or str if you are more of a gatherer).

 

The quotes you just posted are playing INT as if they are still in a17, they aren't playing it for a19 (and didn't see where it said that "INT was one of only two useful trees in the game").

My main problem with INT in a18 is that the stun baton and the junk turrets felt really rare like as if they were secret weapons so the main INT points are meaningless in the begining and crafting while it was nice its true that you could get anything from shematics now.

 

 

Now in A19 INT is still the same but players essentially use it to skip the problems of the loot system with it, since they cant find specific items reliably they are speccing into int so the trader offers better loot, better rewards and you can craft stuff at a much, MUCH faster rate.

 

Isnt it ironic that the "worst" perk tree is only popular now because people want to skip the entire loot nonsense at the begining?

[guardianangelmp]

6 hours ago, Solomon said:

My main problem with INT in a18 is that the stun baton and the junk turrets felt really rare like as if they were secret weapons so the main INT points are meaningless in the begining and crafting while it was nice its true that you could get anything from shematics now.

 

 

Now in A19 INT is still the same but players essentially use it to skip the problems of the loot system with it, since they cant find specific items reliably they are speccing into int so the trader offers better loot, better rewards and you can craft stuff at a much, MUCH faster rate.

 

Isnt it ironic that the "worst" perk tree is only popular now because people want to skip the entire loot nonsense at the begining?

I don't find it ironic, but rather sad that it has come to that.

 

Hopefully the additional stone age weapons they are looking to add will make that part of the game more bearable, but I do hope they take to heart the criticism that having stone tools/weapons in safes and store crates is absurd and not wanted and consider removing them from the loot list for those containers (consider replacing them with dukes, or magazines, or ammo, or parts).

[Solomon]

3 hours ago, guardianangelmp said:

Hopefully the additional stone age weapons they are looking to add will make that part of the game more bearable, but I do hope they take to heart the criticism that having stone tools/weapons in safes and store crates is absurd and not wanted and consider removing them from the loot list for those containers (consider replacing them with dukes, or magazines, or ammo, or parts).

I kind of doubt that, like what can they exactly add in?

 

We are missing swords and actual axes from the melee group but neither of those are stone age and for ranged options we can get like:

 

1. Flintlock pistols what are just weaker blunderbusses again with a single shot barrel.
2. Primitive Crossbows
3. The chinese repeating crossbow what im sure will cost bow parts

And like thats all, theres not much actual primitive gear they can add. They could literally add a brass age and it would still be the same weapons because weapon variety only really started with iron.

 

Also a small nitpick but looking at how could you craft a blunderbuss it is not even supposed to be a stone age weapon but actually iron age because you need forged iron to make one from the scratch (pipes are from forged iron).

 

 

They need to abadon this stone age nonsense and realize that its essentially a tutorial stage what players should breeze over for a lenghty middlegame stage with iron and steel and the endgame with special equipments.

[Tahaan]

For me the new loot system is positively a step in the right direction.  There are things about it that I think can improve.

 

I feel that the game changes tme moment you have a gun, and again the moment you have a vehicle other than a bicycle.

 

In my B163 play-through I got a schematic for Motorcycle Chassis and bough a Motorcycle handlebars on day 6.  I needed steel though and it took till after the horde to find a wrench so that I could take apart street lights to make it.  So by day 8 I had a motorcycle and skipped both the minibike and bicycle.

 

This suddenly meant no more stamina issues, which is the main bottleneck early on.  And with having a gun going out at night was just no longer scary.

 

I've posted some ideas about this in other threads but I want nights to be much scarier - Zeds that wake up easily, path more smartly at night and are hard to kill and hit harder, not just faster, all at night.  Combined with Making it so that you can't repair items that you can't craft and/or making ammo very rare for a long time in the game.

 

Long story short I like the idea of slower progression but it is still too fast.  I have a steel tower with a variety of electrical traps by day 35.

 

About finding Stone tools in loot ... Of course you would.  The survivor who got there before you took the marksman's rifle and left his blunderbus / stone axe because he thought it would help you.  You know, the guy who buys from your rented vending machine....

 

 

[Bashtiks]

Whats this idea about key finding? You want to play in open world destructable envairoment but want keys to open indestructable safes? Any safe should be opened with a simple banging, using drill and locpicks, timed charges, maybe even with few good aimed shots from 50cal or yes a key 😁 

I would want to see a pimps to implament chance to rob a trader

[meganoth]

The idea about keys in short:

The main loot in POIs could be in a special room with concrete or even steel walls and a similar door. The door can only be openend with a key you find somewhere else in the building, on a zombie or in a hidden loot location used in fetch quests.

 

Naturally such a fortified room won't be suitable for all POIs. And you can ignore the key requirement and cut through the destroyable walls or door, but in early game it will easily costs you more time than just looking for the key

 

[guardianangelmp]

6 hours ago, Solomon said:

I kind of doubt that, like what can they exactly add in?

 

We are missing swords and actual axes from the melee group but neither of those are stone age and for ranged options we can get like:

 

1. Flintlock pistols what are just weaker blunderbusses again with a single shot barrel.
2. Primitive Crossbows
3. The chinese repeating crossbow what im sure will cost bow parts

And like thats all, theres not much actual primitive gear they can add. They could literally add a brass age and it would still be the same weapons because weapon variety only really started with iron.

 

Also a small nitpick but looking at how could you craft a blunderbuss it is not even supposed to be a stone age weapon but actually iron age because you need forged iron to make one from the scratch (pipes are from forged iron).

 

 

They need to abadon this stone age nonsense and realize that its essentially a tutorial stage what players should breeze over for a lenghty middlegame stage with iron and steel and the endgame with special equipments.

Oh, I agree with you entirely; they should keep the stone items stage to a minimal time and extend the t1 stage....but for now they are stuck on "stone age" idea.

 

Roland said they are planning/looking on adding iron pipe pistols and rifles.

 

And while your nitpicking is technically correct I think you know what they imply with the "stone age" items (pre modern age weapons), as they are more referring to the items you craft in game at the start and not the real world, prehistoric stone age.

 

Would you prefer they call it the t0 stage?

[RipClaw]

21 minutes ago, meganoth said:

The main loot in POIs could be in a special room with concrete or even steel walls and a similar door. The door can only be openend with a key you find somewhere else in the building, on a zombie or in a hidden loot location used in fetch quests.

I can imagine that this also leads to frustration if the player has gone through the complete POI but cannot find the key. Just to avoid such a frustration, clear quests have a helper that shows you the last remaining zombies.

[IroncrossBG]

I think the best solution is to just revert to A16 weapon parts(1-600) while keeping weapon mods too(they are awesome). I found a AK on day one, ammo is easy enough to get, just build wood blocks to POI chest... I don't even use any melee weapons and Bow/Crossbow(except the explosive arrows/bolts for horde nights). Get a AK and a pump/auto shotgun - you just won the game... whats the point? Also, spending 20-40 minutes to clear a medium-large POI just to get three blunderbusses, crossbow bolts and pistol/AK ammo doesn't make any freaking sense...

Just finished day 28(90 min day) horde night(small 5x5 concrete bunker with iron bars, shotgun turrets and iron spikes), i got every single weapon, Motorcycle and Gyro... finished the game, nothing really to do anymore...

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

I can imagine that this also leads to frustration if the player has gone through the complete POI but cannot find the key. Just to avoid such a frustration, clear quests have a helper that shows you the last remaining zombies.

The same with fetch-quests. it doesn't matter much for completion if it is on a random zombie or in a fetch-location, both have helper icons now.

 

I prefer the random-zombie solution because the fetch-key location would be shown immediately and can be used for shortcuts while the last zombie gets only shown at the end, so getting the key is determined by chance.

[manni44]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

The idea about keys in short:

The main loot in POIs could be in a special room with concrete or even steel walls and a similar door. The door can only be openend with a key you find somewhere else in the building, on a zombie or in a hidden loot location used in fetch quests.

 

Naturally such a fortified room won't be suitable for all POIs. And you can ignore the key requirement and cut through the destroyable walls or door, but in early game it will easily costs you more time than just looking for the key

 

The goal should be to make the endgame harder not the early game. Like the already existing 7 days Meme "oh i found a Shotgun Game over"

[Solomon]

3 hours ago, guardianangelmp said:

 

And while your nitpicking is technically correct I think you know what they imply with the "stone age" items (pre modern age weapons), as they are more referring to the items you craft in game at the start and not the real world, prehistoric stone age.

 

Would you prefer they call it the t0 stage?

Honestly i rather see them get some actual primitive looking weapons.

 

Have you ever heard of the wood cannon? Its a big log with a hole in it what can fire some rounds before shattering, the same can be done for many weapons they just need to look primitive and actually only use primitive items.

 

OR

 

Just expand the base gun arsenal so we have weak, okay and strong versions of all weapons for all ages.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, manni44 said:

The goal should be to make the endgame harder not the early game. Like the already existing 7 days Meme "oh i found a Shotgun Game over"

The Meme for early game is really "oh i found a gun Game over".

 

Read caatalysts post above to see what we were discussing. It was about early game and having a chance to get AKs on day 1 if you take on a challenge. If you want a shotgun messiah residing in an easy biome and still have OP weapons in it instead of stone age weapons (or just ammo) you have to make sure it is very difficult to get those weapons.

 

 

[manni44]

47 minutes ago, meganoth said:

The Meme for early game is really "oh i found a gun Game over".

 

Read caatalysts post above to see what we were discussing. It was about early game and having a chance to get AKs on day 1 if you take on a challenge. If you want a shotgun messiah residing in an easy biome and still have OP weapons in it instead of stone age weapons (or just ammo) you have to make sure it is very difficult to get those weapons.

 

 

But even if u make it hard to get the good stuff, the game is over as soon as u get a shotgun in ur hands.

No matter how long it takes to get It. It wont be long enough, or too long for ppl.

I feel like u cant make anyone realy happy if u make early game super hard. Early game shuld be medium hard in the beginning. and endgame should feel like Nightmare on Dope. That way new players can easy learn the game with less frustration and hardcore peeps have a challenge.

Right now its just when ever u get ur first gun u win. 

Limiting the access to guns early game wont cut the problem we have, it just delayes it.