Alpha 19 Loot System improvement

[Darelius]

Hello,

i bet, there were several themes aboutt the new A19 Loot System and most are spemmd bay haters with flaming comments like"...you only want to have level 5 tier 3 weapons on day 5..."

etc.

 

Here i have an idea for some small changes as a compromise for this.

 

Problem:

With the new Loot system you can find the same weapons/tools in many loot containers, the container type give only a higher or smaller chance of that object.

Escpecially funny is a fact, when looting a working stiff market and only finding stone tools.

 

Solution 1:

There are some containers, mostly hidden or even hard to reach in the buildings with a very high chance for "good loot", like gunsafe, working stiff tool chest etc.

This Containers should have a minimum level for the looted content. So you have a higher chance to find a pistol in a gunsafe, when you are at level 5, then a blunderbuss or a wooden club (in a gunsafe...) Or some iron tools in a working stiff tool crate. Or even a wrench or clawhammer in it - those are basic tools at the first game progress (workbench!).

 

Solution 2:

The special containers noted in solution 1 have generally a "higher" loot level, then the "other" containers, because they are most times guarded, hidden and sometimes extreme hard to reach (hospital for example), especially for new players who dont know all the tricks!

So, when having "normal" containers, you find blunderbuss, wooden bow, stone tools (who the @%$*#! make stone tools in america and sell it by the way?), the "better" containers have a wrench, maybe an iron shovel, a pistol or even a hunting rifle or shotgun.

Even in later game stages those chests offer a better chance of better objects then "normal" chests.

 

Reason:

Primitive Tools and weapons are extreme rate, most times only selfmade in survival games... Finding stone shovels in a Tool market is like a punch in the face from the game (for me).

When i see the weapon statistics in america and therer would be a real zombie invasion, you would find in every 3rd house a shotgun, pistol or a huntung rifle and sometimes  other weapons. For the "realism" feeling in the game the loot system should be changed and especially for new players.

I know, hardcore-players are able to get tier 2 weapons in a week or whatever, but i dont care for them - most players are "normal" players or even "beginner" and for them i think, my solutions cound be a good option.

 

I would add a poll, if i could:

A18-Loot system?

A19-Loot system?

Solution 1?

Solution 2?

 

I personally find solution 2 the best.

And you?

 

 

...DX

[meganoth]

Hidden does not work well for a game that is very replayable. Hospital loot room is very easy to reach if you just put a ladder on the wall or pull yourself up on wood frame blocks. And in times of youtube even novice players can easily find out how to get directly to the loot room on day 1. So there is only the well guarded that works somewhat.

 

And at the moment you can find a gun safe even in lots of smaller residential homes. It isn't possible to remove the good loot boxes from >150 pois in a few days.

 

If TFP wants people to normally not have tier 1 weapons on day 1 there simply is no fast and easy solution. Not for A19.

 

In A20 it seems there will be easy and difficult zones and maybe even difficult small areas like a single building. In easy zones you will find loot like now, in difficult zones you will find better loot (in gun safes) but you have to deal with the dangers there. Would you find that solution acceptable?

 

 

[Scyris]

Best solution is go back to alpha 18's loot system as everyone generally liked it, and just add the new items and done. Literally just have to copy loot.xml from a18 and add the new items in, and its done.

[Roland]

45 minutes ago, Scyris said:

Best solution is go back to alpha 18's loot system

Sorry, but one of the most recurring complaints and repeated thread topics in A18 was how broken the looting was and how it made crafting completely irrelevant. 
 

This new loot system is getting equal parts praise and criticism so it is definitely a step in the right direction. In A18 we were frequently getting high quality tier 2 and 3 guns in the first week of the game. That is something that (at least here) was universally complained about and what spawned the phrase “looter-shooter”.

 

The new system is a work in progress and will be adjusted and tuned but it is already better than A18s mess. 
 

That being said, if you did like A18 loot system better then your suggestion is a great one to bring back the fun. 

[Ezed]

It's still irrelevant when you can't find enough parts to craft items.  It's not satisfying at all to perk into a weapon tree but not be able to craft one.  

 

I realize it's a work in progress, but at this stage of development the weapon/tool systems, should be worked out already at the very least, but no, it's still throw turds at the wall and hope something sticks.  

 

 

[Gideon]

I've seen several complaints about the loot system. There seems to be some sort of disconnect between some players expectation and the loot system which is based largely on game stage. This disconnect seems to be brought up almost exclusively in regards to the presence of stone tools and primitive weapons in loot boxes.

 

Here is my question to these people:

Why does finding stone tools and primitive weapons in loot bother you?

[Boidster]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

Sorry, but one of the most recurring complaints and repeated thread topics in A18 was how broken the looting was and how it made crafting completely irrelevant.

 

Just the other day someone posted - and I am not making this up - that INT was one of only two useful trees in the game. INT!! Can you believe that? Three weeks ago INT was for losers who wanted to hide in the base all day instead of clearing POIs. Now suddenly learning how to craft some things is kind of important, since the game isn't going to hand you WIN on a platter on Day 3.

[Ezed]

I don't want to win the game on Day 3...but it would be nice to engage with it.

[Solomon]

A18 was almost perfect, everything is random it only needed slight adjustments and more items into the pool.

1 hour ago, Gideon said:

Why does finding stone tools and primitive weapons in loot bother you?

Because it breaks suspension of disbelief quite harshly. Players can get around a lot of unrealistic things, gameplay related changes but having the "tutorial" items as loot is atrocious.

 

It also contradicts the 2 trailer videos what are up for this game on steam just to rub that salt deeper in the wound. The actor version shows that our guy by day 7 sports a claw hammer, a wooden arrow, a pistol and a shotgun. The other version shows a player on day 1 with a revolver.

 

There are many things you can actually list as problems with the primitive tools in general in loot, immersion breaking, the fact that these are tutorial weapons, realism problems and soo on.

[Scyris]

20 hours ago, Roland said:

Sorry, but one of the most recurring complaints and repeated thread topics in A18 was how broken the looting was and how it made crafting completely irrelevant. 
 

This new loot system is getting equal parts praise and criticism so it is definitely a step in the right direction. In A18 we were frequently getting high quality tier 2 and 3 guns in the first week of the game. That is something that (at least here) was universally complained about and what spawned the phrase “looter-shooter”.

 

The new system is a work in progress and will be adjusted and tuned but it is already better than A18s mess. 
 

That being said, if you did like A18 loot system better then your suggestion is a great one to bring back the fun. 

Umm, crafting is pretty pointless in a19 as well, even more so than a18 actually from what i've noticed.

[Roland]

17 minutes ago, Scyris said:

Umm, crafting is pretty pointless in a19 as well, even more so than a18 actually from what i've noticed.

 

Not I. In my last game I found two quality 1 AK-47s and by scrapping them and putting those parts together with machine gun parts I had found elsewhere I crafted my own tier 3 quality AK-47 and had two mods to add to it. I was ecstatic when I found that second AK because I knew what it meant and I headed straight to my base to craft it. 
 

I’m not going to lazily claim this is true for everyone. I enjoy looting and crafting and I have found crafting to have a much better place in A19 than it did in A18 and I am enjoying the looting as much as I ever did. 
 

That’s not to say that I don’t look forward to improvements with location based difficulty and a greater variety of early game loot. TFP doesn’t want every crate to contain stone axes and blundies either. It’s a known issue and they plan to address it. 

 

[Scyris]

34 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Not I. In my last game I found two quality 1 AK-47s and by scrapping them and putting those parts together with machine gun parts I had found elsewhere I crafted my own tier 3 quality AK-47 and had two mods to add to it. I was ecstatic when I found that second AK because I knew what it meant and I headed straight to my base to craft it. 
 

I’m not going to lazily claim this is true for everyone. I enjoy looting and crafting and I have found crafting to have a much better place in A19 than it did in A18 and I am enjoying the looting as much as I ever did. 
 

That’s not to say that I don’t look forward to improvements with location based difficulty and a greater variety of early game loot. TFP doesn’t want every crate to contain stone axes and blundies either. It’s a known issue and they plan to address it. 

 

Well assuming your GS is high enough to get them to drop to get the parts then yeah it can be useful, but otherwise? not really. Still not going top sell me on the loot as its made the game completly boring for me to the point I don';t even wanna really play it anymore, i'll try each update anyway, but with how hard headed the dev team is, I suspect loot is ruined for good. There IS a way I though of to fix it.

 

Allow anything to spawn in loot, however, it will be quality tier 1 unless your at the GS it can normally spawn at, so at GS 1 you could find a steel pickaxe, but it'll be guarnteed quality 1 until your GS is high enough that you could loot higher quality versions of it more often. This would fix the system for me, as a Ql 1 steel pickaxe, or pump shotgun is still useful, compared to say nothing but stone axe's and shovels. Will add back the randomness to loot, and stick with the linear crap they are going for. Schematics though should not be locked to GS IMO.

[Onarr]

1 hour ago, Scyris said:

Umm, crafting is pretty pointless in a19 as well, even more so than a18 actually from what i've noticed.

Actually nowadays I craft almost all of my gear. I put a single perk into rifles, bought parts from a trader and crafted a hunting rifle. My tools are crafted too. Damn almost everything I use is crafted. Which is a bit of a problem, because nothing I loot in regards to weapons or tools is ever good enough. But honestly I kinda like it. I hate when looting having tons of tools, weapons etc. that I then hoard for trading. I would decrease the odds of getting a weapon, tool or armor in loot in favor of something different.

[guardianangelmp]

19 hours ago, Boidster said:

 

Just the other day someone posted - and I am not making this up - that INT was one of only two useful trees in the game. INT!! Can you believe that? Three weeks ago INT was for losers who wanted to hide in the base all day instead of clearing POIs. Now suddenly learning how to craft some things is kind of important, since the game isn't going to hand you WIN on a platter on Day 3.

INT isn't important because it allows you to craft things...... it's important because it give you more choices of loot from quests, better items to buy at the trader, and better deals on buying and selling items to the trader.

 

Has nothing to do with crafting.

[meganoth]

19 hours ago, Solomon said:

A18 was almost perfect, everything is random it only needed slight adjustments and more items into the pool.

Because it breaks suspension of disbelief quite harshly. Players can get around a lot of unrealistic things, gameplay related changes but having the "tutorial" items as loot is atrocious.

 

It also contradicts the 2 trailer videos what are up for this game on steam just to rub that salt deeper in the wound. The actor version shows that our guy by day 7 sports a claw hammer, a wooden arrow, a pistol and a shotgun. The other version shows a player on day 1 with a revolver.

 

There are many things you can actually list as problems with the primitive tools in general in loot, immersion breaking, the fact that these are tutorial weapons, realism problems and soo on.

 

The only one who every called the stone age weapons "tutorial weapons" is you. And you are right in sofar that in A17 and A18 they were tutorial weapons. In A15, A16 and A19 at least they actually are not and the developers plans seem clearly different from your plans 😉.

 

Immersion and realism problems are the same problem and granted this is an actual problem for some players.

 

Trailer videos made 4(?) years ago. I can only assume you were going for satire with this comment 😆

 

1 hour ago, Scyris said:

Well assuming your GS is high enough to get them to drop to get the parts then yeah it can be useful, but otherwise? not really. Still not going top sell me on the loot as its made the game completly boring for me to the point I don';t even wanna really play it anymore, i'll try each update anyway, but with how hard headed the dev team is, I suspect loot is ruined for good. There IS a way I though of to fix it.

 

Allow anything to spawn in loot, however, it will be quality tier 1 unless your at the GS it can normally spawn at, so at GS 1 you could find a steel pickaxe, but it'll be guarnteed quality 1 until your GS is high enough that you could loot higher quality versions of it more often. This would fix the system for me, as a Ql 1 steel pickaxe, or pump shotgun is still useful, compared to say nothing but stone axe's and shovels. Will add back the randomness to loot, and stick with the linear crap they are going for. Schematics though should not be locked to GS IMO.

 

A pump shotgun of quality 1 to a basic zombie is like a laser guided rocket is to a fercious bunny. Sure, the loot system needs more variety, but please show me another game where you get end game weapons in early game. I'm sure you have no chance to loot the dragon slayer uber weapon in Skyrim on day 1 for example.

I actually would be ok if one in a million players gets such a weapon in the first week, but would that be enough for you?

 

[Kalen]

34 minutes ago, meganoth said:

A pump shotgun of quality 1 to a basic zombie is like a laser guided rocket is to a fercious bunny. Sure, the loot system needs more variety, but please show me another game where you get end game weapons in early game. I'm sure you have no chance to loot the dragon slayer uber weapon in Skyrim on day 1 for example.

I actually would be ok if one in a million players gets such a weapon in the first week, but would that be enough for you?

 

Did you really just say that a pump shotgun was an end game weapon?  I mean, I'm willing to see how things play out, recognizing that this isn't the final looting system.... but that was a very odd statement to make.

[Gazz]

He's not wrong. Even a double barrel destroys all the early game zombies.

[Kalen]

8 minutes ago, Gazz said:

He's not wrong. Even a double barrel destroys all the early game zombies.

Not debating its effectiveness.... just its classification as "end game".   

[caatalyst]

Expanding the early stages of the game is great IMO. I think I enjoy those earlier weeks the most as the game feels its most challenging.

I appreciate the new loot system is WIP but I do hope it gets more interesting as it gets refined. There is definitely something very artificial about the direction the game is going in which sucks for a survival game when typically the big sell factor for these games is an element of realism and immersion. Going in a house and looting but avoiding containers just because your game stage is low and you know the loot will be terrible feels odd.

Personally I think there should always be a chance of getting some fairly good loot early game, even an M4. I appreciate that in order to tier weapons you have to some how gate progress but Surely it would be much more immersive if it was the POIs / loot locations that determined the loot. If you want a military weapon then loot a military site etc... These areas could be very tough and this would organically gate them. Low level players who did take the risk and make it out a live might come out with a marksman rifle or m4. The quality should be completely RNG with a very low chance of finding a Q5 or Q6 item. I'm not a fan of the generic loot containers at the end of every POI that always spawn the same loot regardless of the POI.

Additionally more could be done to nerf low tier guns. Low quality guns could have a chance to break, poor accuracy and recoil control. I'd much rather these were the types of stats that were impacted by quality and damage be completely removed from the skill tree and quality. Instead ammo types do the talking when it comes to damage.

[Kalen]

3 minutes ago, caatalyst said:

Personally I think there should always be a chance of getting some fairly good loot early game, even an M4. I appreciate that in order to tier weapons you have to some how gate progress but Surely it would be much more immersive if it was the POIs / loot locations that determined the loot. If you want a military weapon then loot a military site etc... These areas could be very tough and this would organically gate them. Low level players who did take the risk and make it out a live might come out with a marksman rifle or m4. The quality should be completely RNG with a very low chance of finding a Q5 or Q6 item. I'm not a fan of the generic loot containers at the end of every POI that always spawn the same loot regardless of the POI.

This is why item degradation would be good.... you could find a better than average weapon early but its eventually going to break, so its a limited time advantage.

 

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Kalen said:

Not debating its effectiveness.... just its classification as "end game".   

I actually mixed up the shotgun tier names since I haven't played STR in A19 and the combat(?) shotgun is new. But I also didn't care much because generally I don't have much problems running around with tier 2 weapons at end game, the differences to tier 3 are often small. I'm playing FOR right now, have a M60 but prefer using AK/tactical rifle for the better handling.

 

 

 

[Kalen]

14 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I actually mixed up the shotgun tier names since I haven't played STR in A19 and the combat(?) shotgun is new. But I also didn't care much because generally I don't have much problems running around with tier 2 weapons at end game, the differences to tier 3 are often small. I'm playing FOR right now, have a M60 but prefer using AK/tactical rifle for the better handling.

 

 

 

To be fair, I was being a bit snarky, as I felt you were engaging in a bit of hyperbole.  No one that I saw was asking for tier 3 (ie. end game) weapons early game.   Most people are just asking for the chance at something other than stone tools and weapons.

[Boidster]

6 hours ago, guardianangelmp said:

INT isn't important because it allows you to craft things...... it's important because it give you more choices of loot from quests, better items to buy at the trader, and better deals on buying and selling items to the trader.

 

Has nothing to do with crafting.

I was referring to particular posts, not a general observation and certainly not meaning to ascribe any position to you, personally.

 

Quote

going all in onInt early is a pretty decent strategy if for nothing else than transport,crafting stations

Quote

Started off with STR/INT for mining/crafting with no combat skills

 

[guardianangelmp]

1 hour ago, Kalen said:

To be fair, I was being a bit snarky, as I felt you were engaging in a bit of hyperbole.  No one that I saw was asking for tier 3 (ie. end game) weapons early game.   Most people are just asking for the chance at something other than stone tools and weapons.

There really is no decent stone age long range, or even medium range, weapon.  Primitive bow is trash tier now, blunderbuss is pretty much a close range 1v1-2 weapon, otherwise all other weapon choices are close range melee weapons (throwing the spear is a joke).

 

Maybe throw in a sling shot, or a stone sling, to get some more options for early game ranged weapons.

 

Even if you give access to lvl 1 hunting rifles and pistols a little earlier (or have those in the safes in early game), then tone down the ammo looting, it would be better.

 

Also, I totally agree that adding weapon/tool degradation back into the game, and very mildly lowering the threshold for loot tiers, would work well.  Sure, you may get guns earlier, but after 4-5 repairs it's permanently broken, worth 25 dukes, and gives 0-1 parts when scrapped. 

[Roland]

11 minutes ago, guardianangelmp said:

 

Maybe throw in a sling shot, or a stone sling, to get some more options for early game ranged weapons.

They already have plans for a pipe gun and pipe rifle. I’m not sure why you think throwing the spear is a joke. It is quite effective especially in combination with another weapon. I love to throw the spear and then switch to a sledge hammer or club. Or I’ll shoot a couple arrows into a zed and then throw the spear. Now that a nav beacon helps you find a thrown spear I love it when my spear explodes their head and lands in the dirt on the other side. Once you get an iron spear you can have a stone and iron spear that will return to their places on the tool belt and having two to throw is even better.