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Tried A19, A16 is still best Alpha


~Kevin~
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1 minute ago, Boidster said:

I regret that I have but one like to give this post. Q6 should only be craftable, never looted nor bought. You can get really, really good weapons/tools/armor through looting and trading, but the best stuff is lovingly hand-crafted at home. I will never get what I want in vanilla, and I am fine with that.

 

Count me as +1 for gradual degradation, tho. Like, every time you repair an item it loses 10% or 20% overall durability. 1st time it repairs back to 90%. Next time 80%. And so on. Still plenty of life, but ya gonna need a replacement eventually. I likely will not get this in vanilla either, which is why I ❤️ modders.

I would be 100% on board for for degradation if I could craft Q6 items.  Make it expensive; sure, but as long as I still have the ABILITY to craft it.

 

IF I could craft a Q6 item, I would stockpile the resources to make a replacement and have it ready to replace the weapon I have when it degrades to no longer usable.  This would also have to be tied to dropping from a Q6 to a Q5 at some point so that a Q6 is always better than a Q5; a problem in previous alphas.

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35 minutes ago, Kalen said:

I think the whole idea of looking for a specific Q6 item is a bad approach for a survival game.   I want the game to play in such a way that you don't have that luxury.... you look for whatever you can find and use whatever you can find to the best of your ability.   Sometimes that means you get lucky and find that Q6 shotgun you're specc'd into.... and sometimes you're not lucky and you end up using a Q4 AK that you're not specc'd into.   

 

When items last forever every game ends up being pretty much the same.... you keep looting till you get what you want then you're done.

 

And what Kalen said is the reason Q6 should never be craftable in this survival game. Unless it needs an ingredient that is only craftable into this specific Q6 and is as scarce as the original Q6.

 

 

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1 minute ago, meganoth said:

And what Kalen said is the reason Q6 should never be craftable in this survival game. Unless it needs an ingredient that is only craftable into this specific Q6 and is as scarce as the original Q6.

 

 

I used to be a big advocate for crafting Q6.... until I modded it in and tried it.   It was too easy to get Q6 and just wasn't as rewarding.   

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14 minutes ago, Roland said:

That is just bonkers to me. Useless? Not by a long shot. You get great use out of it while you have it and then you have a great memory of that time you had it. 

This might be the case if a Q6 item was much better than a Q5 item. But that is not the case. Whether I shoot a zombie with a Q5 shotgun or a Q6 makes no difference. It is a quality of life upgrade but it doesn't suddenly give me godlike powers or make me a superhero.

14 minutes ago, Roland said:

What if there’s a high probability you won’t get one in your next game? Do you never start over? Do you just stay in that save forever with your purple auger?  

I rarely restart. Most of my games have more than 200 days. I prefer to focus on base building. It may be boring for some but for me the main reason to play this game.

16 minutes ago, Roland said:

I suppose that degradation really should be dropped in the same way that locked POV which caused nausea and high pitched ringing which aggravated tinnitus were dropped. If there really are people who experience such high levels of anxiety at the thought of their best tool eventually wearing out that they can’t even use the tool at all— TFP has a responsibility to accommodate them too. 

Stop making fun of people just because you don't understand them. It is known that some people get motion sickness with some FOV settings. Check out the accessibility guidelines for games.

 

I wouldn't use the auger, not because I'm afraid of losing it, but because after a few repairs it would be a Q5 auger anyway. The same quality level I can craft.
 

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1 minute ago, RipClaw said:

This might be the case if a Q6 item was much better than a Q5 item. But that is not the case. Whether I shoot a zombie with a Q5 shotgun or a Q6 makes no difference. It is a quality of life upgrade but it doesn't suddenly give me godlike powers or make me a superhero.

You're not making a lot of sense here

 

First you say 

Quote

So if I know that a certain item is very rare and I won't get it again in this game with high probability then it's pointless to use it because I can't keep it anyway. 

The item is pointless to use because its rare and wont last....

 

But then you say there isn't any difference between Q5 and Q6 except for QOL.  So does that mean the Q5 is pointless too?

 

I'm having trouble understanding your side of the discussion.

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49 minutes ago, Kalen said:

I used to be a big advocate for crafting Q6.... until I modded it in and tried it.   It was too easy to get Q6 and just wasn't as rewarding.   

Isn't that a balance issue? What was the recipe you used? What about the trade-off between spending the perk points to max out STR or INT or whichever you required in your mod vs using those points for other things? (I am assuming Q6 required max stat and max specific perk.) I have not tried to mod it in myself; in your opinion, would it be impossible to balance it appropriately?

 

I dislike a mindset of "why go into crafting, I can pretty much just find/buy everything eventually" (not ascribing this sentiment to you, Kalen, just in general), which is why I advocate for Q6 being only-crafted. But, also, I like crafting so I have my own blinders on...

 

Put another way, I'd like it if the reason to go into crafting was not just to get things sooner, but to get things exclusively. And to accommodate people who choose not to go down that path, those only-craftable-not-lootable things would necessarily be either the highest-quality stuff (leaving plenty of high-quality, suitable-for-endgame stuff for non-crafters) or unique items - maybe mods that only a max-level crafter can make (not just find the schematic and off you go).

 

When the game is stable, I'll start browsing the mods in this space. So far I've really only used a UI mod and a couple of modlets of my own making. I'll have to look into some of the crafting-related mods.

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4 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Isn't that a balance issue? What was the recipe you used? What about the trade-off between spending the perk points to max out STR or INT or whichever you required in your mod vs using those points for other things? (I am assuming Q6 required max stat and max specific perk.) I have not tried to mod it in myself; in your opinion, would it be impossible to balance it appropriately?

I dont remember the specific recipe, but it seemed at the time, a logical progression from the previous quality recipes.   It did require max stat and max perk.

 

5 minutes ago, Boidster said:

I dislike a mindset of "why go into crafting, I can pretty much just find/buy everything eventually" (not ascribing this sentiment to you, Kalen, just in general), which is why I advocate for Q6 being only-crafted. But, also, I like crafting so I have my own blinders on...

I actually prefer crafting.... there is something cool, to me, about wearing and using items that I gathered the parts for and assembled.   I guess you're right and its a balance issue.... I suppose it would be possible to make Q6 crafting so difficult that you could craft them with about the same frequency that you would loot them.   In that case, you'd keep the same level of reward, but I haven't got any ideas on how to do that other than add a rare part you have to loot..... and at that point, whats the difference between crafting and looting?

 

11 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Put another way, I'd like it if the reason to go into crafting was not just to get things sooner, but to get things exclusively. And to accommodate people who choose not to go down that path, those only-craftable-not-lootable things would necessarily be either the highest-quality stuff (leaving plenty of high-quality, suitable-for-endgame stuff for non-crafters) or unique items - maybe mods that only a max-level crafter can make (not just find the schematic and off you go).

 

In a way, this is why I really want item degradation.... because it makes crafting way more relevant then it is now.   Sure you will loot some pretty awesome gear from time to time, but it wont last.   The only way to keep yourself reliably equipped is through crafting

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That goes with what I was saying; make Q6 craftable and require a perk AND having found all the magazines for a specific skill.

 

Want to make a Q6 shotgun?  No problem!  Gather all the parts, have unlocked the max perk, and have read all the magazines.  That way, you're still able to and are either specifically spec'd for it or at a late enough game stage that it would potentially be lootable as well.

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3 minutes ago, Dracula said:

That goes with what I was saying; make Q6 craftable and require a perk AND having found all the magazines for a specific skill.

 

Want to make a Q6 shotgun?  No problem!  Gather all the parts, have unlocked the max perk, and have read all the magazines.  That way, you're still able to and are either specifically spec'd for it or at a late enough game stage that it would potentially be lootable as well.

Sure getting to that point is quite a chore, but once you have that you can make unlimited quantities of Q6 shotguns (resources permitting).... personally, I don't think that's a good thing for the game.

 

For Q6 crafting to come back, IMO, there would need to be some limiting factor that prevents you from mass producing them

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11 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Sure getting to that point is quite a chore, but once you have that you can make unlimited quantities of Q6 shotguns (resources permitting).... personally, I don't think that's a good thing for the game.

 

For Q6 crafting to come back, IMO, there would need to be some limiting factor that prevents you from mass producing them

In a world without degradation that is not a problem. You simply wont do that.

 

At the moment getting 7 books is not guaranteed but still far too fast on average for the ability to craft q6, but that is something that could be changed as well. Games where you can craft the best items usually make that option a far off possibility only available through serious grind (AFAIK). I just don't see the q5 gun costing 25 steel, but the q6 gun costing >500 steel and 30 diamonds, it just looks a bit odd.

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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I don't know if A16 is the best alpha, but I agree there is something really wrong with A19 progression.

 

I've realized that I now dread starting a new game because the "forced stone age" crap is really annoying and removes all excitement from the first 10-15 hours. And, like the OP, I now avoid looting boxes and chests until I'm level 20 or so, because it feels like a waste otherwise.

 

Maybe we need additional quality tiers? It's clear 6 tiers is not enough. Increase the max to 10 and spread out the rewards a bit more throughout the progression spectrum. That way, you can still find a level 3 pump shotgun on day 2, and not feel like you leapfrogged to mid-game. Making zombies tougher as the game stage progresses would also help (I mean above and beyond the feral/irradiated variants being introduced. Add larger zombies, zombies that lob explosive projectiles, etc.).

Edited by enragedcamel (see edit history)
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2 minutes ago, meganoth said:

In a world without degradation that is not a problem. You simply wont do that.

Well true, not for something like a shotgun.   But for skills that give you multiple items, like mining or heavy armor, you could craft a whole suite of Q6 items once you unlock it.   Not to mention multiplayer where one person could outfit an entire team.

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24 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Sure getting to that point is quite a chore, but once you have that you can make unlimited quantities of Q6 shotguns (resources permitting).... personally, I don't think that's a good thing for the game.

 

For Q6 crafting to come back, IMO, there would need to be some limiting factor that prevents you from mass producing them

As opposed to making endless Q5 examples.

 

It's not like there's that much difference between Q5 and Q6 items; it's mostly a mod slot.  

 

Multiplayer will also always be an issue for balance; as if you can always set up a group to edge the game.

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2 minutes ago, Dracula said:

As opposed to making endless Q5 examples.

 

It's not like there's that much difference between Q5 and Q6 items; it's mostly a mod slot.  

 

Multiplayer will also always be an issue for balance; as if you can always set up a group to edge the game.

Sure not much, but there is a difference.   I guess it comes down to personal preference, but for me, I didn't like it when I enabled Q6 crafting.   I found it really devalued Q6 items.   

 

And like I said, if Q6 crafting were to come back, you should be able to craft about the same amount you could loot to keep both methods of acquiring gear equal.

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1 hour ago, Kalen said:

You're not making a lot of sense here

 

First you say 

The item is pointless to use because its rare and wont last....

 

But then you say there isn't any difference between Q5 and Q6 except for QOL.  So does that mean the Q5 is pointless too?

 

I'm having trouble understanding your side of the discussion.

With the current loot progress, you can often craft the items in Q5 before you find them.  So you have a working auger that is only a little bit worse than the one you just found. But you can always recraft the Q5 auger as long as you have enough parts.

 

So why should I switch to Q6? To have one more modslot for a short period of time? I would think about what I would lose when the Q6 item becomes a Q5. Then the Q6 auger is stored in a box with the intention using it out when it is worth it.

 

But every time you want to use the Q6 Auger you remember that you can only use it for a limited time before it becomes a Q5 and you still have enough parts to build a new Q5. So why waste the Q6?

 

Ever heard that people save something for a special opportunity that never comes? That's how I see it with Q6 items.
They don't have enough advantages over a Q5 item to see a need to use them, but at the same time are too rare to be wasted.
 

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1 minute ago, RipClaw said:

With the current loot progress, you can often craft the items in Q5 before you find them.  So you have a working auger that is only a little bit worse than the one you just found. But you can always recraft the Q5 auger as long as you have enough parts.

 

So why should I switch to Q6? To have one more modslot for a short period of time? I would think about what I would lose when the Q6 item becomes a Q5. Then the Q6 auger is stored in a box with the intention using it out when it is worth it.

 

But every time you want to use the Q6 Auger you remember that you can only use it for a limited time before it becomes a Q5 and you still have enough parts to build a new Q5. So why waste the Q6?

 

Ever heard that people save something for a special opportunity that never comes? That's how I see it with Q6 items.
They don't have enough advantages over a Q5 item to see a need to use them, but at the same time are too rare to be wasted.
 

I still don't get your point.... why would you use it?  Why wouldn't you?  It would last twice as long as a Q5 auger (half the time as a Q6 and half the time after it degraded to Q5)  and still have an extra mod slot, thats why you should use it.   To be fair, an auger (or any tool) really isn't a great example since, unlike a weapon, there is no reason to save it for something.   

 

So when your skill is only at the point where you can craft Q4 items, do you feel the same about Q5 items?   No reason to use them?

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Kalen said:

I still don't get your point.... why would you use it?  Why wouldn't you?  It would last twice as long as a Q5 auger (half the time as a Q6 and half the time after it degraded to Q5)  and still have an extra mod slot, thats why you should use it.

I would not want to use it because I would always feel that I was wasting this item. That the modslots remain unchanged is the way you imagine it.  I assume that the modslot would be dropped because currently quality dictates the number of modslots.

20 minutes ago, Kalen said:

To be fair, an auger (or any tool) really isn't a great example since, unlike a weapon, there is no reason to save it for something. 

You've obviously never dug a big pit down to the bedrock. Grand Spartan has done that in his current stream series and he too has been looking for a Q6 Auger for a long time and his reaction was intense when he finally found one.

20 minutes ago, Kalen said:

So when your skill is only at the point where you can craft Q4 items, do you feel the same about Q5 items?   No reason to use them?

Eventually, I will be able to craft Q5 items. So it is not the same as a Q6 item. This one I cannot craft.

Edited by RipClaw (see edit history)
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57 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I just don't see the q5 gun costing 25 steel, but the q6 gun costing >500 steel and 30 diamonds, it just looks a bit odd.

I think the "parts" mechanic holds the key to balance. Maybe it takes 2x or 3x the parts to make a Q6 item because you have to sort through the pile of parts to find the one unblemished part suitable for a top-quality build. And maybe instead of 25 steel it's 50 because you have to refine impurities at each step and it takes more raw resource to do that. So "expensive" but not "stupidly out of line with Q5" expensive. And still reliant on looting/purchasing to get enough parts.

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

At the moment getting 7 books is not guaranteed but still far too fast on average for the ability to craft q6

Man I suck. I have never once gotten all 7 books of any tree. But I've rarely played past about day 60 nor above level 100-ish. I wonder what the appropriate day/level is to be able to craft Q6, if such a thing existed?

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2 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I would not want to use it because I would always feel that I was wasting this item. That the modslots remain unchanged is the way you imagine it.  I assume that the modslot would be dropped because currently quality dictates the number of modslots.

Well since the system doesnt and may never exist, neither of knows how it would work.   I just don't understand how using a Q6 item can somehow be considered "wasting" it

 

3 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

You've obviously never dug a big pit down to the bedrock. Grand Spartan has done that in his current stream series and he too has been looking for a Q6 Auger for a long time and his reaction was intense when he finally found one.

Bad assumption, I have dug many pits to bedrock.... I've used augers and steel picks to do so

 

The fact that you feel using a Q6 item would be wasting it if item degradation exists is not evidence that a degradation system is bad, but rather evidence that you would have trouble adapting to it.   Heck, as a player I would hate to lose an awesome item that I found.... but, IMO, it does make a better game.   Obviously you have a different opinion, which is fine.

 

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3 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Well since the system doesnt and may never exist, neither of knows how it would work. 

I know how the old degradation system back in A15/A16 worked and how it could be counteracted. But back then there were no mod slots, no random stats and the items where assembled from parts didn't degrade when you repaired them. When for example my pickaxe was degraded after several repairs I combined it with a new pickaxe and it had its full quality again.

6 minutes ago, Kalen said:

I just don't understand how using a Q6 item can somehow be considered "wasting" it

Just think of the Q6 item as old wine. You don't just drink it when you're thirsty. That would be a waste. Do you understand now?

30 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Bad assumption, I have dug many pits to bedrock.... I've used augers and steel picks to do so

And you probably used the best tool you had available which would be the Q6 auger in the box for example.

33 minutes ago, Kalen said:

The fact that you feel using a Q6 item would be wasting it if item degradation exists is not evidence that a degradation system is bad, but rather evidence that you would have trouble adapting to it.

I rather think that our ideas of how this would be implemented are very different. You're assuming a moderate implementation. I'm assuming a worst case scenario.
As long as I can counteract the degradation, e.g. by using parts to repair the item, I don't have a problem, but there are some who have the idea of permanent degradation system.

37 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Heck, as a player I would hate to lose an awesome item that I found.... but, IMO, it does make a better game.

At least you're admitting that as a player you would hate it. I am not a game developer. Therefore I cannot say what makes a good game or not. I only express my opinion as a player.

44 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Obviously you have a different opinion, which is fine.

Fine with me, too. I just wanted to give my opinion and voice my concerns.

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6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Stop making fun of people just because you don't understand them. It is known that some people get motion sickness with some FOV settings.

Oh, I know FOV motion sickness Is a real thing. That’s not what I was making fun of.....

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If their market research showed that extending the primitive stage would be a good way to win new customers, then I really think all the designers/decision makers should have played a couple 2-3 week long A16 games.

The early game/horde magic was there in A16, it definately isn't in a19.

(And to be succsessful in A16s first weeks -did not- require firearms. Also not saying it was perfect, just a heck of a lot better.)

 

-- following is what came to mind reading the Q6 crafting & degredation posts --

 

Just my opinion, but I personally would really like more items in the game, where it makes sense.

 

Variety is the spice of life as they say.

 

The upcoming Vehicle Damage system could really open the door for 'needing' different vehicles.

Add a Dirtbike. No damage when offroad, fastest offroad.

Motorcycle fastest on road, but med off road speed and takes damage.

 

Add normal Car and now 4x4 vs. Car is similar to Dirtbike vs. Motorcycle, but Car/4x4 have more storage & use more gas.

 

Add a Deuce and a Half. Huge storage, slow like a Minibike, can't climb steep hills but otherwise fine for off road.

(these'd need 10 tires, 3-4x the iron/steel of the 4x4, lowest MPG)

 

Bigger the vehicle, less damage taken running zeds over.

Bike/Minibike/Dirtbike, really shouldn't hit zeds with these, likely to break something. Etc.

 

Point being that if you look at "Vehicles" like any of the 'weapon' branches, Vehicles already have a T0, T1, T2 and a T3. And each are well suited in their slot with obvious seperation and benefits.

 

But the gameplay problem, imo, is that after you've used each one for a while they just become, 'same ole same ole'. And, a biggie, there's very little reason to ever use any vehicle other than your 'favorite'.

 

Adding variety, if only to the 'top tier' would add a fair bit; more things to find, more choices in what to use, help define RP characters, all of which can extend a playthrough, and incentivize more games.

 

Yes. I can definately see why TFPs stuck so rigorously to the 'one item per tier' for so long. It facilitated balance, minimized amount of rework, eased metas like what to put into each Class.

But now that they're so close to Gold, and have a set Standard for visuals, hearing that the final weapon items will be pipe guns is incredibly disappointing.

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5 hours ago, Boidster said:

I think the "parts" mechanic holds the key to balance. Maybe it takes 2x or 3x the parts to make a Q6 item because you have to sort through the pile of parts to find the one unblemished part suitable for a top-quality build. And maybe instead of 25 steel it's 50 because you have to refine impurities at each step and it takes more raw resource to do that. So "expensive" but not "stupidly out of line with Q5" expensive. And still reliant on looting/purchasing to get enough parts.

 

Man I suck. I have never once gotten all 7 books of any tree. But I've rarely played past about day 60 nor above level 100-ish. I wonder what the appropriate day/level is to be able to craft Q6, if such a thing existed?

 

25 steel or 50 steel, that is small change. I don't know the exact number of seconds a miner needs to mine for 50 steel, but I know our 4 man co-op group had no problem on day 33 to churn out 300 steel out of our forge plus similar stacks of forged iron when we prepared for horde night and then the forge still wasn't empty. 

 

So with your "expensive" numbers we could have produced more than 6 end-game q6 weapons on day 33. And our miner is only part-time mining.

 

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18 minutes ago, meganoth said:

So with your "expensive" numbers we could have produced more than 6 end-game q6 weapons on day 33. And our miner is only part-time mining.

<sigh> Okay fine. My contention is only that it could be successfully balanced. I don't want to go back and forth about any specific numbers. Let's agree to disagree.

 

Good on your crew for maxing out the stats, perks, and completing the full book chain by day 33 though! I wish I had that kind of success.

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)
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