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~Kevin~

Tried A19, A16 is still best Alpha

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Posted (edited)

@~Kevin~ I know how this game works, thanks. That´s not the point here. We are comparing a16 to a19 here and a16 was easy and boring very fast because you had everything within a short amount of time. In a19 you need a lot more time and struggle way more than you ever did in a16.

 

And how does repairing for days make anything better? Honestly i can´t imagine anything more boring in this game than repairing a horde base for days. I´d rather chop trees with a stone axe for two days straight.

Edited by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)
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18 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

.....................a16 was easy and boring very fast because you had everything within a short amount of time. In a19 you need a lot more time and struggle way more than you ever did in a16.

And how does repairing for days make anything better? Honestly i can´t imagine anything more boring in this game than repairing a horde base for days. I´d rather chop trees with a stone axe for two days straight.

 

Feels like you are cherry picking my post.  Rebuilding was an idea, a suggestion. 

 

So what you want is a game with unlimited items?   Maybe Borderlands would be a better game for you?

 

One of the main issues with 7 days to die is there is little difficulty progression.   Once you reach a certain level - AK47, cement mixers, steel.... - the game becomes flat in its difficulty.  As a result, people get bored.

 

Alpha 16 was an almost perfect game.   Rather than fixing stuff like difficulty progression the Devs tried to remake the whole game.

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6 hours ago, ~Kevin~ said:

 

Feels like you are cherry picking my post.  Rebuilding was an idea, a suggestion. 

 

So what you want is a game with unlimited items?   Maybe Borderlands would be a better game for you?

 

One of the main issues with 7 days to die is there is little difficulty progression.   Once you reach a certain level - AK47, cement mixers, steel.... - the game becomes flat in its difficulty.  As a result, people get bored.

 

Alpha 16 was an almost perfect game.   Rather than fixing stuff like difficulty progression the Devs tried to remake the whole game.

A16 was a step along the path to TFP's "almost perfect" game. If A16 was the "almost perfect" game for you then you are still able to go back and play it.

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Posted (edited)

I think it'd be great to see perishable weapons. I've played mods with it and it makes the strategy/survival mechanics far more interesting and immersive. Guns become more situational until you get close to end game where you have enough resources to make really good weapons whenever you need them. I've never seen this in a mod but I think it'd be fun to then make Q6 weaponry repairable without quality loss. It would give good incentive to go out and do things and make Q6 stuff much more special than it currently is.

 

Or there is one mod which requires specialized repair kits to repair weapons. With perfectly balanced recipes this can have basically the same effect. For the first few weeks I would sometimes go days with my good weapon sitting at home because I didn't have the resources to repair it yet. It also had the effect of making me not want to use it to kill zombies in normal situations that weren't life-threatening or where I didn't need to really thin the herd quickly.

Edited by uselessjunkaccount (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
On 8/2/2020 at 6:14 AM, Scyris said:

Yeah, due to the garbage linear loot system I never touch safes anymore till after a certain GS because they will be filled with garbage. I really want them to go back to a18 loot where getting a quality 4-6 item was rare as hell even at high gamestage, and the loot was random, you could get lucky and find a pump shotgun on day 1, or a steel tool, Now? the game is so frigging boring, there is virtually no reason to loot things early because all it'll have is stone tools or scrap armor. I play dead is dead myself so the linear loot system hits me even harder, as it doesn't have the randomness a18 had, its the same... boring...progression every damn game. When a18 exp came out I was playing it for 8-12 hours a day, every day as I loved it. A19? I think i've played less than 30 hours total of a19, because the loot system just completly ruined the game for me that they have in a19. It was that big of a change and that hated of a change by me and others.

 

It seems in general the new loot system is hated by the majority of players as I see almost no one saying they actually like it, so I really hope they go back to how a18 was, and leave it at that, and just add the new items into it. It could be done in a a19.1 patch or something since it'd just be copying the loot.xml from a18 and adding the new items into it, which there aren't THAT many. Maybe tweak it a bit so its a bit harder to find steel tools etc early, but do not remove the option entirely.

 

The game was better back in a16 for a few reasons, learn by doing, which I will admit needed some tweaks, i'd rather it be just for weapons and mining tools only, and the level in those skills determines the perks you can learn which also ups the quality of the tool you can craft. A16 also gave the player choice, if you wanted to live in a hole in the ground and skip horde night? you were allowed to, in a18? Nope they took that away as now zombies can dig, a19, zombies can now swim and they somehow can swim faster than the player char, so the float on water option for dealing with the horde is now gone too. Then you have how they screw stealth builds, first they have the trash piles on both sides of a door in the intended path of the stupid as hell every damn poi is a maze crap, then they have rooms where second you walk in everything aggro's and gpses to you no matter how high your stealth skills are.

 

I used to build underground bases in a16 not to avoid the horde, but because of the structural intergrity system, and how buggy it was. You go one block over the limit and it took out the entire row instead of just the most recent one placed, worse, it'll probably cause a cascade that takes out your entire base, all due to 1 block. I used to try to build multi floor tower bases, and every single time when doing the last floor, if I go 1 block over the limit, it not only ruins that floor, but it also took out the 2 floors below for some reason, floors that according to console commands should have been perfectly stable enough that 1-4 blocks shouldn't have taken it out from falling on it.

 

All in all A19 is 1 step forward on graphics, 10 steps back on everything else for me. The game is losing its sandbox playstyle due to being forced by the devs to play in certain ways. I really wonder if the devs ever actually play the game, without using any cheats to see just how boring a19 actually is. Try playing dead is dead in a19, its boring on the 2nd time as its exactly the same as the first time due to the way loot is now. Compared to a18, where you could at least have a chance of getting something nice and rare like a steel tool on day 1 (it'd be quality 1 but still better than iron), the change of that happening added so much fun to the game, and it was happy feel-good times when you got a lucky loot drop early. Sadly this cannot happen period in a19 the way its setup.

Yep, sums it up nicely.

I only started playing on 18.2 so don't know anything about the others, but this LBD sounds amazing to me, because that's exactly how real life works after all.

I play on Permadeath as well (damn you Glock9 for introducing me to that concept) and you are so spot on about the boredom...

100% agree about loot as well. what a waste of time until you hit at least GS 30+..

 

" Compared to a18, where you could at least have a chance of getting something nice and rare like a steel tool on day 1 (it'd be quality 1 but still better than iron), the change of that happening added so much fun to the game, and it was happy feel-good times when you got a lucky loot drop early. Sadly this cannot happen period in a19 the way its setup."

EXACTLY!!

Managed to find a lvl 1 pistiol and a lvl 1 junkie in a safe one time on day 1, and I was so thrilled..

Now it's just..ugh.

Anyways, I also have a youtube channel where I do let's plays of my 7 days permadeath runs, stop on by fellow dead is dead comrade..

It's under my same username.

 

Edited by Demandred1957
different viewpoint (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, Demandred1957 said:

I found it funny that Madmole replied to one of my quotes by telling me to turn my exp up like he does..

 

 

I think you misunderstood MM's comment. He was talking about how fast he levels. Not that he turned xp factor up...

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@Gr.o.m. and @manni44 

 

You'll be happy to hear that Madmole has announced that degradation will NOT be returning to the game. So congratulations. I concede the debate. The upside is that no high pitched screaming will be necessary. :)

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2 hours ago, Roland said:

@Gr.o.m. and @manni44 

 

You'll be happy to hear that Madmole has announced that degradation will NOT be returning to the game. So congratulations. I concede the debate. The upside is that no high pitched screaming will be necessary. :)

It's a shame really as I think weapon degradation if done well would have added a bit of an end game loop that kept players actively looking for new weapons or parts.

If your weapon of choice didn't sustain its Q6 status and either needed maintaining, upgrading or replacing then that would have been one more reason to keep actively exploring and looting the world. I can see why some players might find the idea annoying which is why it would have just needed balancing well and one that could have tied in with a series of books or schematics that reduced how quickly a weapon degraded or provided the player with the ability to upgrade their Q5 to a Q6 etc... given they went out and looted the necessary tools or parts.

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On 8/7/2020 at 7:45 AM, Dethar said:

On gore blocks, I liked them to a degree. Like I said I mainly play overhauls, and it was bit much after horde night. Overhauls spawned more zombies and usually lasted till 4am. Took half day to clean up the mess. Like I said try Darkness Falls, he added back gore blocks like he did LBD. Just dont get gore block from every zombie you kill. DF wont be updated till after A19 stable tho, so have some time to play A16. 

 

I've seen a few similar comments, and don't really understand. You didn't need to clean up the gore blocks - they despawned quicker than you could chop them up most of the time.

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4 hours ago, Roland said:

@Gr.o.m. and @manni44 

 

You'll be happy to hear that Madmole has announced that degradation will NOT be returning to the game. So congratulations. I concede the debate. The upside is that no high pitched screaming will be necessary. :)

Thanks for the information.

 

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Posted (edited)

@~Kevin~ Where did you get the idea that i want unlimited items everywhere for free? That is what A16 was. Finding everything, everywhere, even very early in game. A19 put a stop to that. And that i do like very much.

 

What i don´t like is repairing all the time.

 

All you suggested was boss zombies that do a lot of havoc on your base, so repairing becomes the main thing to do. Didn´t see any other suggestions from you apart from vague statements about things beeing locked behind gates and how player progression is done wrong. 

Edited by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
On 8/1/2020 at 7:23 PM, ~Kevin~ said:

It seems rather than making the game more difficult as the player progresses, the developers are making it more difficult for the player to progress.  Now I need points in science and find books to make bellows and a forge?  I tried A18, went back to A16, and just tried the most recent experimental build.

 

Rather than throwing obstacles in the way of the player, why not add bosses to the hordes?

 

One of my biggest complaints since alpha 16 is the developers put obstacles in the way of the player.  For example, rather than skills leveling up as we use them, now we have to put a point in every skill?

 

I made a post about this awhile back and I realize people are going to have things they like and dislike about each alpha.  With that said I felt Alpha 16 was almost perfect.   What we needed were bosses to help the 7 day hordes difficulty progress.   Some people felt we leveled up to fast, or we may have gotten the forge to fast... etc.   So what if we did, were we entertained?   I know I was.

 

I currently have "1,105 hrs on record" in 7 days to die - https://steamcommunity.com/id/old-school-player/

 

Make it easy for players to level up, and build their base.  Because if they do not get something built by day "whatever you pick", the destroyer of bases is going to arrive and wreck havoc.  Instead of taking a few hours to rebuild after the 7 day horde, make it take days to rebuild.

 

I like 7 days to die, I really do.   I just feel the developers are going in the wrong direction.  What make 7 days to die great is slowing fading away with each beta.

'Get rid of all difficulty to the game, make it minecraft MK2 and kill the playerbase because all we really want is a modded version of minecraft.'

No. This is a terrible direction to go.
You like that trash version? Feel free to go play it. Glad you can and leave a good game alone. Thank god your voice is the minority. Id refund this game if it was minecraft MK2.
Firm no. A19 is the way to go.
You enjoy A16 minecraft tho, ya hear?

Check the steam charts- A16 had wayyyyy less people than now. Youre the minority.

Edited by Pichii (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Pichii said:

'Get rid of all difficulty to the game, make it minecraft MK2 and kill the playerbase because all we really want is a modded version of minecraft.'

No. This is a terrible direction to go.
You like that trash version? Feel free to go play it. Glad you can and leave a good game alone. Thank god your voice is the minority. Id refund this game if it was minecraft MK2.
Firm no. A19 is the way to go.
You enjoy A16 minecraft tho, ya hear?

Check the steam charts- A16 had wayyyyy less people than now. Youre the minority.

A16 is when I found this gem of a game and it was great. After that all we got were fancier graphics and simplification of the game.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, eXSe said:

A16 is when I found this gem of a game and it was great. After that all we got were fancier graphics and simplification of the game.

So you think "earn xp, spend it in traits, higher traits cost more points, and perks need higher base traits to advance" is more simple than.... make 5000 stone axes and go mining to have all the xp you need to make purple gear as fast as possible? Huh.

Edited by Feycat (see edit history)

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1 minute ago, Feycat said:

So you think "earn xp, spend it in traits, higher traits cost more points, and perks need higher base traits to advance" is more simple than.... make 5000 stone axes and go mining to have all the xp you need to make purple gear as fast as possible? Huh.

Yes, exactly. It has become an XP grind to get to where you want instead of organic progression through sheer gameplay.

 

I do know that LBD was used and abused, but so can be everything... fire up 20 forges, call up screamers and farm them for XP. What's better about that? Huh.

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Posted (edited)

@eXSe the difference? You need to actually fight zombies if you farm XP with screamers.  With LBD you could sit in the crafting menu of the forge, getting skillpoints while beeing afk. 

 

Also A16 was over at day 35 even earlier if you min/maxed your gameplay well. You had everything and could kill everything at that point. Boring compared to the slower progression we have right now. 

 

Don´t get me wrong, i had a lot of fun with all the previous versions (no, not you A17, not you) but having played A19 now, makes them look bad tbh.

 

Edited by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

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2 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@eXSe the difference? You need to actually fight zombies if you farm XP with screamers, and even if you pull off a afk screamer base you need to get ressources for that and need to build it. With LBD you could sit in the crafting menu of the forge, getting skillpoints while beeing afk. 

 

Also A16 was over at day 35 even earlier if you min/maxed your gameplay well. You had everything and could kill everything pretty fast. Boring. 

Yes, but looking into the forge or AFK-ing would be boring AF and nobody in their right mind would call that playing the game. Also, you need resources for that too.

 

What I'm talking about are normal people who play the game without trying to beat the system and I felt that A16 had something to it that tickled my fancy more than this pure XP conversion to magical skills. Let's call it realism or immersion... organic progression even.

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10 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@eXSe the difference? You need to actually fight zombies if you farm XP with screamers.  With LBD you could sit in the crafting menu of the forge, getting skillpoints while beeing afk. 

 

Also A16 was over at day 35 even earlier if you min/maxed your gameplay well. You had everything and could kill everything at that point. Boring compared to the slower progression we have right now. 

 

Don´t get me wrong, i had a lot of fun with all the previous versions (no, not you A17, not you) but having played A19 now, makes them look bad tbh.

 

That seems like it would've been simple to combat "after X number of skill points you stop gaining them for Y number of minutes"   

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1 hour ago, eXSe said:

Yes, exactly. It has become an XP grind to get to where you want instead of organic progression through sheer gameplay.

 

I do know that LBD was used and abused, but so can be everything... fire up 20 forges, call up screamers and farm them for XP. What's better about that? Huh.

Just as anything can be abused so can anything be played organically. There is nothing forcing you to play the current system in an unnatural manner. You can mine when you need to, kill zombies when necessary, build a fort, explore, loot, trade, farm— all in a very natural manner and based on in-game goals and objectives.

 

There is only one reason anyone would ignore natural gameplay and instead grind the one activity perceived to be the single best source of XP. But if you are one of those types of players you’re going to do that kind of stuff no matter what system is in place. 

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Let's be honest about LBD. Condeming the entire mechanic due to spam crafting and sitting on cacti is like saying every compact car is horrible because of the Gremlin and the Pinto.

 

Applied judiciously, to things where it makes sense, it could be a nice thing.

Travel x kilometers, improve cardio a bit.

Wear armor for a few days, slight reduction in mobility penalty.

Simple capping of gains based on game time passed allows prevention of abuse.

Getting 'tougher' from taking damage; if player takes damage > or = to max health over 5 days they gain 2 max health (50 days in = +20 hps)

Also simply capping the max benefits from LBD means it could be just early to mid game additional minor progression.

 

I get it's not coming back. And that what I describe is more along the lines of what a AAA dev house can afford to do. It'd be 'nice', and TFPs still have major things to do and limited time to do them in.

Just wanted to point out that, at least from what I've read, almost no one who's advocated for LDB wants to also see spam crafting or cacti nesting return.

 

To A16 vs. A19.

I really enjoyed the first week of a new A16 game. Constant pressure to get that first horde night base built (I refused, like many did, to take over a POI in a16, which was a bit 'cheesy' back then).

And hordes in general were much more 'in your face' in a16. Was very common to build melee bases and take on the hordes with a club or machete and a repair tool. A17 really destroyed that imo. To be fair, a19 looks like it may be possible to go pure melee with a pole defense base again, if only for the first or second horde nights. I haven't tried as I'm still too trained (traumatized heh) by a17. And the early game mining nerf in a19 is a real disincentive to attempting to build your own base by day 7 imo.

 

Yes, games in a16 were quicker than now. Yet it could be argued that a16 simply ran at the speed it did based on what the game had to offer.

Checkers vs. Chess. More content = longer playthroughs.

 

Narrowing the comparison to just the first week, including the horde, there's no question which alpha I had more fun playing.

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20 minutes ago, Roland said:

Just as anything can be abused so can anything be played organically. There is nothing forcing you to play the current system in an unnatural manner. You can mine when you need to, kill zombies when necessary, build a fort, explore, loot, trade, farm— all in a very natural manner and based on in-game goals and objectives.

 

There is only one reason anyone would ignore natural gameplay and instead grind the one activity perceived to be the single best source of XP. But if you are one of those types of players you’re going to do that kind of stuff no matter what system is in place. 

I agree. Those who want to min/max or farm XP will do things in the most efficient perceived manner with the system gifts/restrictions that they've been given. All of that is fine and i know that that will happen.

 

What I'm saying is simply that I had a much more fun and immersive experience in the game with that old system. Why? It felt more natural to progress in those areas in which you expended effort. You did the things you liked, wanted or needed to do and you got better at them without thinking about it... every now and then you were pleasantly surprised with "hey, you've got better at X" and I liked that. It was like a little present you weren't expecting to get :)

 

"But what if you hate Y and need it? Now you have to grind it by doing the exact thing you hate." Well, yes and no. If you're a completionist, then yes. But it's your own damn fault :) Otherwise, you can make do with trading and scavenging to fill that need.

 

In the end, I know that I'm wasting my breath with this topic, but I just don't see the up side with this system over that one.

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On 8/7/2020 at 1:33 PM, Roland said:

With no degradation once you have a purple level weapon finding any quality of that weapon is a waste other than to sell it and there is zero weight to that decision. 

I didn't know they removed random stats from the game.

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5 minutes ago, HungryZombie said:

I didn't know they removed random stats from the game.

Ok fine.....

With no degradation once you have a purple level weapon with optimal stats finding any quality of that weapon is a waste other than to sell it and there is zero weight to that decision. 

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9 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Ok fine.....

With no degradation once you have a purple level weapon with optimal stats finding any quality of that weapon is a waste other than to sell it and there is zero weight to that decision. 

Good luck finding a complete set of purple gear with optimal stats.

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24 minutes ago, HungryZombie said:

Good luck finding a complete set of purple gear with optimal stats.

Thanks

 

It still really doesn't change anything.... without item degradation, choice is very simple.  If you find a better item you keep it, if its worse you sell it.   With item degradation you have to think about how long will my current item last.... if it will last long enough, I can sell the item I found.... if its nearing the end of its life, I have to consider keeping what I found, even though its a little worse.   

 

Complicated choices are good for the game.... A>B so sell B is not complicated.

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