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Maharin

I have a forge problem

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Posted (edited)

I generally play on maps with fewer POIs and always with no loot respawn.  The biggest problem is that there are some things you just can't get without a whole lot of random looting or deconstructing.  My biggest hurdle in the early game is just making a forge... all because making a forge requires a component that can't be made without a forge (iron pipe).  Catch 22?

 

I know I could mod in another recipe for an iron pipe (using scrap iron) and/or change the recipe for the forge (use a bunch of scrap iron instead of a pipe) to solve my problem.  But this still seems like it shouldn't be necessary.  I *should* be able to make a forge with basic ingredients.  In the real world I could make a basic forge with some rocks and a fuel source.  :p

 

Thoughts on this minor issue?

 

#firstapocalypseproblem

 

Edited by Maharin
missed an "a" (see edit history)

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To get to pipes you can simply destroy toilets and sinks with your stone axe. One sink or 3 toilets should give you enough pipes to make a forge. 

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Yeah, toilets and sinks give pipes even if you don't have a salvage tool. If you do have one, metal beds give springs and iron pipes pretty well.

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Yes... but remember the "very few POIs" part of this equation.  I know pipes can be found, it's just odd that I have to find something modern to make something, well, not modern.

 

I'm in a similar boat with duct tape requirement for forges.  Since making glue requires a cooking pot and making a cooking pot requires a forge.  /sigh  I can find duct tape and glue in trash piles so this isn't as big of an issue.

 

I'm going to end up making a "primitive mod" by the time I'm done.

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13 minutes ago, Maharin said:

Yes... but remember the "very few POIs" part of this equation. 

I have taken this into account in my answer. Fewer POIs does not mean "no POIs at all". Since toilets and sinks are very common in POIs, even with fewer POIs you should have no problem salvaging enough pipes to build a forge.
 

19 minutes ago, Maharin said:

I'm going to end up making a "primitive mod" by the time I'm done.

Sounds interesting.

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so no traders? not enough in the entire map? I mean as long as you can make them eventually I don't really see an issue. 

 

I mean it sounds like that map is custom made so might as well customize the recipefor iron pipes and other junk if you're looking to play 7dtd wilderness survival.

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Well, you have removed most of the opportunities for scavenging stuff and you have a problem scavenging stuff. The game is balanced for all of its components so if you remove a significant part (most POIs) the balance will be off. You may want to modify the XML so that you can still find the things you need.

 

Cars will give pipes, tho, so if you haven't removed those it might help you. Also if you kept the "remnant" POIs (mostly-crumbled little buildings like in the wasteland) they will often have a single sink or toilet in them.

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Posted (edited)

No traders.   Also, in my current map, there isn't a POI anywhere near me that I can see.  Not even one.

 

My point of this thread is more about the catch 22 in the beginning game where you need pipes to make a forge and a forge to make pipes, if being self sufficient is a goal.  There is also the issue of duct tape where you either have to loot it or face another catch 22 where you can't make it without having to make something in the forge to make something in the camp fire to make a forge.

 

I'm not nitpicking, I'm just pointing out the catch 22.

 

Added:

For reference, adding the code below to recipes.xml is one possible solution.  In my world view it would be interesting to build a version where you can be completely self sufficient and progress through things without relying on old world tech (or at least being able to build all of the pieces leading up to the tech).  Granted, there are a lot of other considerations in the long run like scaling difficulty if you don't have access to guns or turrets, for instance.

 

I would like to play a game that is a combination of 7DTD, Dying Light (can't beat the controls and parkour), and Factorio (build everything eventually from scratch).  :p

 

<recipe name="resourceMetalPipe" count="1">
	<ingredient name="resourceScrapIron" count="12"/>
	<ingredient name="resourceClayLump" count="1"/>
</recipe>

<recipe name="toolCookingPot" count="1">
	<ingredient name="resourceScrapIron" count="25"/>
	<ingredient name="resourceClayLump" count="5"/>
</recipe>

 

Edited by Maharin (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

This is a catch 22 because you deliberately handicaped yourself in such way that it makes the game barely unplayable. Not because the game has a flaw. I dont know what did you expect from us. There's really nothing else to say : you removed most flesh from the bone and you now worry you dont have nothing to eat... 🤷🏻‍♂️ You went too harsh i guess. Its fine if you find your fun into this and i hope you do but you set the the bar very high imo.

Edited by Kyonshi (see edit history)

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14 minutes ago, Kyonshi said:

This is a catch 22 because you deliberately handicaped yourself in such way that it makes the game barely unplayable. Not because the game has a flaw. I dont know what did you expect from us. There's really nothing else to say : you removed most flesh from the bone and you now worry you dont have nothing to eat... 🤷🏻‍♂️ You went too harsh i guess. Its fine if you find your fun into this and i hope you do but you set the the bar very high imo.

/boggle

 

Is it that much of a stretch to come to a discussion forum about a game to point out that there is a circular requirement that cannot be met under certain circumstances?  I made no demands, I did not expect anything from you or anyone else, nor did I do anything other than point it out and open up a discussion.  Why are you attacking this concept like I've personally offended you or TFP in some way?

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It's a fully valid complaint, there is a circular situation that in some instances can lead to a more-or-less softlock. I don't know of any clean way to fix it though. You could do it with an expanded primitive stage (add some kind of "Primitive Forge" that can be made purely with environment-salvageable materials and lets you make a few very basic items like iron pipes), but that would be too niche of a thing for TFP themselves to add I feel since this softlock will almost only ever happen in a modded world. Could be good territory for a mod, like you said. (Worth noting, I could see a very new player potentially encountering this "softlock" on a normal world if they get absurdly unlucky with finding pipes and don't know that you can smash sinks for them. I don't think it would actually happen, but it is a possibly)

 

Coming into a thread and attacking someone because they modified a heavily modifiable game and are pointing out an issue that can happen with said modifications isn't exactly helpful, there's no reason to be aggressive like that.

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The impression I get from TFP comments is that looting is one of the pillars they're designing the game around. Madmole, for instance, has replied to more than one complaint over the years with "get off your butt and loot!" That being the case, it seems like this situation is actually working as intended- by forcing you to visit and loot locations instead of holing up in your base and being able to craft everything. Since that's not an option for you, seems like more modding is in order. Otherwise I don't really see the devs changing this, as it reinforces the gameplay direction they're aiming for. 

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3 hours ago, Maharin said:

But this still seems like it shouldn't be necessary.  I *should* be able to make a forge with basic ingredients.

There are many things in the game that cannot be crafted except from looted resources. If I remove nearly all of the sources of those resources, have I uncovered some Catch-22 in the game? And should the game (that is, is it obligated to) let me be successful just as though I hadn't made the significant modification that I did? It is an interesting position to take...

 

If your argument is that TFP should change the game so that forges should be craftable without requiring any looted resources, then that might explain some of the responses. The situation is one of your own making; the game balance is fine (mostly) when un-modified. Maybe we're misinterpreting your OP as implying that there is an imbalance in the game that you have uncovered and wish to see fixed. If you didn't mean that, then the above quoted sentences lead me astray.

 

If your OP is only "hey look what I discovered when I modified the loot balance" then okay. Your idea of changing recipes.xml is a good one for adjusting balance to adapt to your game modification.. You can also look at loot.xml to maybe increase the chance for pipes and tape in trash heaps and whatnot.

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Just a bit of a sideways response, but the very basic kind of Forge the models represent wouldn't actually require metal pipes to work.

 

The pipe is for the bellows to attach to in order to increase air into the forge, raising the temp high enough to melt iron ore. It could be replaced with a couple feet of rock-stone clay mortared 'pipe'. There are YT vids showing the building and use of primitive forges that look very similar to 7dtds model, and they don't use metal pipes.

 

And for the life of me I can't think of how Duct Tape would be used to make a Forge. I think it's left over from when the Bellows was a seperate part you had to make to then make a Forge. And even then it wasn't actually needed. Not saying it couldn't be used to make a Bellows, but if you look at old time bellows they were often two wooden 'paddles', like to pull pizzas from an oven, with leather connecting the two to create the air chamber. Could instead make a full bladder out of leather with a few holes through the leather and wood paddles and use leather ties to connect. And there's a few different ways to make the valve needed so you don't suck hot air from the forge into the bellows when refillng the bladder that wouldn't require metal/tape.

 

Anyway, just mentioning this in case it's useful to 'justify' a recipe change @Maharin :)

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hey guys, i modded out all of the cars and garages in my game and now i can't find any engines. sounds like a catch-22 if you ask me, if you remove cars you can't find engines, if you don't mod cars out then you can find engines. 

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18 minutes ago, gurutar said:

hey guys, i modded out all of the cars and garages in my game and now i can't find any engines. sounds like a catch-22 if you ask me, if you remove cars you can't find engines, if you don't mod cars out then you can find engines. 

The post was not about my lack of finding pipes or duct tape, it was about the circular requirements and opening up a discussion as to whether, maybe, that should even be the case anymore (there are certainly other ways of looking at this as well).  But hey, go ahead and take a stab at irrelevant misdirection.  Feel better?

2 hours ago, Boidster said:

If your OP is only "hey look what I discovered when I modified the loot balance" then okay. Your idea of changing recipes.xml is a good one for adjusting balance to adapt to your game modification.. You can also look at loot.xml to maybe increase the chance for pipes and tape in trash heaps and whatnot.

Honestly?  That's really all I was aiming for with the post.  I discovered the circular dependency and was questioning whether it should (or need to be) there at all.  I "discovered" it because of the heavy modding, sure, but it wasn't a whiny complaint.  At least that wasn't the way I meant it for sure.  :p

3 hours ago, EggsAisle said:

The impression I get from TFP comments is that looting is one of the pillars they're designing the game around. Madmole, for instance, has replied to more than one complaint over the years with "get off your butt and loot!" That being the case, it seems like this situation is actually working as intended- by forcing you to visit and loot locations instead of holing up in your base and being able to craft everything. Since that's not an option for you, seems like more modding is in order. Otherwise I don't really see the devs changing this, as it reinforces the gameplay direction they're aiming for. 

That is definitely a valid point or counter argument.  If looting is a pillar of the game and stands equal in need to crafting then I completely understand and will just keep on modding.  However, I remember a time when you could even make things like "mechanical parts" and basic components like that (using a workbench, if I remember correctly).  So it isn't too far fetched to ask for some of that back.

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5 minutes ago, Maharin said:

The post was not about my lack of finding pipes or duct tape, it was about the circular requirements and opening up a discussion as to whether, maybe, that should even be the case anymore (there are certainly other ways of looking at this as well).  But hey, go ahead and take a stab at irrelevant misdirection.  Feel better?

if you want a non-sarcastic answer, these circular requirements aren't an issue because all of the required materials are easily found if you play the game as intended. yes, you need duct tape and pipes to make a forge, and you need a cooking pot to make glue, which requires a forge. or a kitchen to take it from. i just don't see an actual issue to discuss here.

 

more power to you playing how you want to play, but these issues only arise when you play the way you are playing.

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1 hour ago, Maharin said:

That is definitely a valid point or counter argument.  If looting is a pillar of the game and stands equal in need to crafting then I completely understand and will just keep on modding.  However, I remember a time when you could even make things like "mechanical parts" and basic components like that (using a workbench, if I remember correctly).  So it isn't too far fetched to ask for some of that back.

I think this is the real issue, but there just isn't that much for us to talk about. TFP have definitely shifted the game balance away from pure, self-sufficient crafting to a more balanced mix of crafting and looting with a fair bit of trading tossed in. I, too, remember the days when you could craft everything in the game from harvested resources alone, but for better or worse, those days are long gone and they are not coming back. The decisions TFP have made in many regards have shown us that they don't want you to be able to access everything by any one avenue.

 

This is clearly bad news for people who want to be self-sufficient crafters, but extensive modding is the clear, only answer unless you are satisfied to never have Q6 gear or be fully reliant on perks to unlock recipes.

 

I would say that the "catch 22" you've pointed out is a bit of a misnomer as it is not that at all for vanilla players. That's probably the source of most of the hostility you're getting.

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8 minutes ago, Psychodabble said:

I think this is the real issue, but there just isn't that much for us to talk about. TFP have definitely shifted the game balance away from pure, self-sufficient crafting to a more balanced mix of crafting and looting with a fair bit of trading tossed in. I, too, remember the days when you could craft everything in the game from harvested resources alone, but for better or worse, those days are long gone and they are not coming back. The decisions TFP have made in many regards have shown us that they don't want you to be able to access everything by any one avenue.

 

This is clearly bad news for people who want to be self-sufficient crafters, but extensive modding is the clear, only answer unless you are satisfied to never have Q6 gear or be fully reliant on perks to unlock recipes.

 

I would say that the "catch 22" you've pointed out is a bit of a misnomer as it is not that at all for vanilla players. That's probably the source of most of the hostility you're getting.

 

Fair points, but as to the last one, the catch 22 is from a crafting perspective.  You need metal pipes to make a forge and they can only be made with a forge.  You need duct tape to make a forge but you can only make duct tape using a cooking pot which can only be made in a forge.  From a crafting standpoint this is just as true for vanilla.

 

I agree with the other poster that said that duct tape is really a pointless need in making a forge and the pipe is really part of the bellows.  Anyway, modding is where it is at with this issue.  Just thought it was worth mentioning.

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7 minutes ago, Maharin said:

 

Fair points, but as to the last one, the catch 22 is from a crafting perspective.  You need metal pipes to make a forge and they can only be made with a forge.  You need duct tape to make a forge but you can only make duct tape using a cooking pot which can only be made in a forge.  From a crafting standpoint this is just as true for vanilla.

 

I agree with the other poster that said that duct tape is really a pointless need in making a forge and the pipe is really part of the bellows.  Anyway, modding is where it is at with this issue.  Just thought it was worth mentioning.

Except that in vanilla, those ingredients are extremely easy to loot from the very beginning of the game. They require nothing beyond the starting tool and a very small amount of exploring to gather in pretty decent numbers. 

 

The catch 22 only presents itself if you limit yourself in your gameplay in a very specific way, i.e. pure crafting without any looting or POI interaction, therefore most vanilla players will not see it as such and have a hard time getting where you are coming from.

 

I think your best bet lies in changing the recipes rather than the loot as the former can be pretty satisfyingly balanced on your own by removing things that don't make sense to you and adding other things to compensate, whereas changing the latter can turn into a very messy slippery slope.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Maharin said:

/boggle

 

Is it that much of a stretch to come to a discussion forum about a game to point out that there is a circular requirement that cannot be met under certain circumstances?  I made no demands, I did not expect anything from you or anyone else, nor did I do anything other than point it out and open up a discussion.  Why are you attacking this concept like I've personally offended you or TFP in some way?

What the f...

 

I didnt attacked you. The hell you're talking about? Relax buddy 🙄

 

Why is it so much of an issue to you that there's divergent points of view from your own?? That's called... life! People will sometimes disagree with you. Take note of this for the future?

 

Now, you've been told, before i did, that you put yourself in a very difficult spot by accentuating the challenge kinda out of bounds from what the original game design suggested, so that your experience is suffering from it. And then you noticed a "circular pattern" that puts you into a borderline dead-end. You dont say? Its pretty normal that if you remove some pieces of a puzzle to give yourself a hardcore challenge, you'll end up being unable to finish the said puzzle.

 

So, what can you do to circumvent that problem? Add the pieces back in the game. If you play within those boundaries aformentioned, you wont have that catch 22 situation. But the more you remove from the game's tools, the more you remove from yourself. That's what i meant when i said "What do you expect from us?". If you really wanna put yourself in that challenging setting, you'll just have to run from one end of the map, scavenging everything, every inch-square, to the other and grasp a thin hope that you'll stumble upon the item you need. If you find some fun into this, fine. But personally, i prefer playing a zombie survival game rather than a pure archeological one.

Edited by Kyonshi (see edit history)

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12 hours ago, Kyonshi said:

What the f...

 

I didnt attacked you. The hell you're talking about? Relax buddy 🙄

 

Why is it so much of an issue to you that there's divergent points of view from your own?? That's called... life! People will sometimes disagree with you. Take note of this for the future?

 

Now, you've been told, before i did, that you put yourself in a very difficult spot by accentuating the challenge kinda out of bounds from what the original game design suggested, so that your experience is suffering from it. And then you noticed a "circular pattern" that puts you into a borderline dead-end. You dont say? Its pretty normal that if you remove some pieces of a puzzle to give yourself a hardcore challenge, you'll end up being unable to finish the said puzzle.

 

So, what can you do to circumvent that problem? Add the pieces back in the game. If you play within those boundaries aformentioned, you wont have that catch 22 situation. But the more you remove from the game's tools, the more you remove from yourself. That's what i meant when i said "What do you expect from us?". If you really wanna put yourself in that challenging setting, you'll just have to run from one end of the map, scavenging everything, every inch-square, to the other and grasp a thin hope that you'll stumble upon the item you need. If you find some fun into this, fine. But personally, i prefer playing a zombie survival game rather than a pure archeological one.

I'd say you are correct in your answer and correct about not deserving that reply but you misunderstand Maharin's point of view. It is not about difficulty it is about crafting being self-sufficient.

 

In some earlier alphas you (maybe) could craft everything you need from the bottom up by just mining and picking plants. Maharin seemed to think this was a fundamental design principle of the game, but it definitely isn't, at least now it isn't. The game needs you to scrap the remnants of civilization as well. Why? Because a level 1 player is an idiot and needs a schematic to even build a forge, and that forge in that schematic has a pipe 😉.

 

The first years I was cooking in RL I was just like my avatar in 7D2D, slavishly following the recipes.

 

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Workbenches also require a wrench, which can only be built at a workbench or looted. Some things seem to require a recipe to unlock, or to be looted.

 

Several things are only available through loot. If you like to use game settings that cripple your ability to find things through loot, then it might just be a limitation of your play style that you have to accept.

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speaking of circular crafting requirements, this thread is going around in circles.

 

OP, there is no catch 22. everyone has explained this several times and you keep bringing it up. play the game the way you want to play it. but no one else has this issue. you made it for yourself.

 

why did you make this thread if you're not going to listen to what people are saying?

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I gotta say that now that you said it, the whole thing does sound stupid as hell.

 

You need A to craft B but you need B to craft C what is requied to make A.

 

1 hour ago, gurutar said:

speaking of circular crafting requirements, this thread is going around in circles.

 

OP, there is no catch 22. everyone has explained this several times and you keep bringing it up. play the game the way you want to play it. but no one else has this issue. you made it for yourself.

 

why did you make this thread if you're not going to listen to what people are saying?

He made a perfectly valid point, there shouldnt be instances in looter games where you need a item what can only be crafted with the previous item. Its a design oversight and an easily fixable one too.

 

We already can make a campfire so all we need is a recipe what uses lots of coal, clay and some iron to make a pipe. Its easy as hell and prevents any kind of future problems what impossible designs could cause.

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