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ubai

A19 vultures are silly...

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They attack ridiculously fast, fly like a UFO, and they can share space with other vultures. Vultures now guarantee infection and make riding bicycles a frustrating slog. At one point I was attacked by an 8 winged, 8 clawed megavulture clump ( I really think TFP needs to either implement proper collision for their mobs or balance everything around them being able to exist in the same physical space).

 

In the early game when antibiotics are very difficult to come by, vultures basically create a frustrating loop of infection deaths that sucks all the fun out of the game. This is before you take into account all the other new health conditions they give you (how exactly does a vulture break your leg? Beats me, but it happens all the time). Generally, an attack from just one vulture generally leaves me with infections, concussions (did it fall on my head?), abrasions, and sometimes the aforementioned broken leg, even though I'm wearing heavy armor.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the new health conditions for the most part, but I have used at least twenty antibiotics in the first seven days, which is nuts. I just cheat them in now whenever a vulture attacks. I really don't see new players enjoying this at all, since infection is the one mechanic that relies entirely on RNG early game. A new player can make splints or bandages, and pain killers are fairly plentiful, but antibiotics are incredibly rare in the early game.

 

Dying through your own choices with an occasional RNG death is reasonable and entertaining. Being stuck in an endless death spiral due to infections you have no control over leads to uninstalls and refund requests, which would be a shame. I love 7D2D but that is partly because I know how to edit the data files. ;)

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, ubai said:

but antibiotics are incredibly rare in the early game.

I kind of look at this as a preview of TFP's future adjustment to biome difficulty. So, you think it's bad now, just wait! 🙂

 

I absolutely do not travel through vulture country any more until I have a stock of antibiotics and splints. And a shotgun if at all possible. Always have the shotgun fully loaded and as the active weapon before boarding the vehicle. Hear or see a vulture? Immediately hop off and kill it. It kind of reminds me of A15 where I just did not go near the wasteland unless I was well-heeled in both weaponry and healing items. A17-A18 were a bit more free-wheeling and I explored all over without too much fear. A19 has brought some of the fear back for sure.

 

I agree that damage debuff types ought to be a bit more differentiated between different animal/zombie types. Vultures maybe ought not to break bones, but I'm fine with higher infection chance and lacerations from the pointy beak. Bears ought to break bones much more often than any other critter except maybe a demolisher explosion. And so on.

 

And a vulture attack bringing a motorized vehicle to a near-complete stop? Hmmm...🤨 Maybe needs a little balance.

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)

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What is it that you are doing that leads to you constantly being attacked by vultures?  Is this not player choice?  The only time I’ve had problems with vultures is when I failed to get of my  vehicle to kill them. 

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The stacking problem confused me for a while; I couldn't figure out why I was taking 20% damage per hit to my vehicle.  It was actually a stacked mob of them hitting at once.  That needs to change.  They can also catch up to a vehicle if it gets slowed down by an obstacle or a hill; then it's a chain-attack of 5 vultures that looks like a single vulture.

 

They need to be unable to infect you when you're in a vehicle as well as to bring the vehicle to a stop.

 

I compare the vultures to Cliff Racers in that they add more annoyance than they add gameplay value.

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Posted (edited)

They do need to be fixed, here's what I would do.

 

once I club it to death, I should be able to walk up to it and club it some more until it's just a red paste on the ground.

 

then if I keep on clubbing it, the ground splits and I fall down a layer.

 

When I keep on clubbing it, my club breaks and I can't fix it.

 

Then there should be a stomp feature until I run out of stamina.

 

When the hole I am in is 30 ft deep,  the game warns me that it's hard to get out.

 

I should be able to pick a screw it option and keep on stompping it some more until I die and resurrect on my bedroll or near it.

 

That would fix it

Edited by ElCabong
typo (see edit history)
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There's definitely something weird about the way they attack when you're on a vehicle. Even when they are not clumped, they seem to perform some sort of chain attack versus mounted targets that allows them to hit WAY faster than they can against a normal target. That attack speed allows them to hit criticals at an unreasonable rate.

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Never been stopped by vultures while driving a motorcycle or the Jeep, and frankly put, you can easily outrun them on both of these motorized vehicles. 

 

You cannot outrun them if on the moped, but again, learn situational awareness by using your left mouse button to free your camera and let you look around while you drive the moped. IF you see a vulture swooping towards you, learn to dismount your moped while in motion and turn to face the vulture, either gunning it down, or use a spear, or even a club to beat it down as it gets close. 

 

It's honestly not hard at all, and I play on Survival difficulty. 

 

If your stupid enough to keep driving a moped or a bike when getting attacked, that is 100% on you, as you should be taking action to deal with the threat. 

 

Also of great importance, it is very easy to find these broken tree stumps that you simply break down with a stone axe, and can find Honey, which has antibiotic properties (5% I believe) and are a great supplement to use if you do not have any antibiotics. 

 

From what I have read on multiple forums regarding the vultures, is that most folks lack situational awareness, and simply do not like that a zombie survival game has added more challenging creatures and boosted their AI to become an actual threat. This is frankly put, a learn to play issue. 

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Vulture do crit more than any other entity. I don't have problem, because i dont drive around till I have swarm. If i see one and he is not way off, I drive towards him till he notices me. Then hop out and wait for him.

 

I do max out enemy animal spawns in my game. My nephew joined me in one of his first playthroughs and forget to turn down spawn. In 7 hour playthrough he died 30 times, I died once. I was just laughing, he was a little annoyed. He came back for more playthroughs tho, and died less.

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a tip for dealing with tons of early infections: honey has a pretty high chance to drop from tree stumps if you break them. in my most recent game i'm on day 21ish and i have like 20 honey (that rhymes).

 

i haven't had THAT much of a problem with vultures... are you playing in the wasteland? cause i play quite a bit in forests and deserts and i can drive between towns 10 times before i encounter even one wild vulture. never seen them stack on each other and rapid attack. although they can catch up to me on a motorcycle which is annoying.

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Actually, I have found 2 honey this playthrough, and I am on day 25, but that really is beside the point, except to show that the infection mechanic, more than any other, puts you entirely at the mercy of the RNG, and that for me is not fun. I suspect that i am not alone, but I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself.

 

Also, "situational awareness" or its lack has nothing to do with the problem (but speaking of situational awareness, is it possible to look around while on a bike? Can you hear the vulture approach? Can you smell them?). The problem is how they are set up: with very high rates of condition infliction and improper collision detection. Claiming that it's just a "L2P scrub, derp derp" issue is counterproductive.

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If you are on a bike they are more likely to attack you. That's why when you're in vulture territory you get attacked, you kill  vulture, get back on your bike, ride 3 feet more down the road, get attacked again, kill that buzzerd, get back on your bike go three more feet then rinse and repeat.

 

If you're likely to go through that place often once you kill them they don't respond quickly. And has been said, honey is your friend.

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I have never had a real problem with vultures.  I cannot fathom what all of you are doing that brings them to you in such hordes....

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So far I haven't seen a wild vulture in the green forrest biome. Did get a wandering horde of them and none of them attacked me, but I was at full health, and I didn't think to hop on the minibike to see if they would then.

On 7/29/2020 at 2:06 AM, hiemfire said:

Desert, Wasteland and Burnt Forest. They don't spawn outside of pois or horde night in the other two (snowy and normal forest).

Can attest to early game infections being a lengthy & real annoyance. And that Tree Stump Honey + RNG can be a real @%$*#!. Spent a day on a bike looking for stumps after a wolf infected me. Found only 6 stumps which gave 2 honey total, infection was ~15% (wolf bite happened late evening so infection had all night to worsen) and honey only heals 5%. But honey kept me alive until I lucked into a med clinic poi, which, thank rng, had one antibiotic.

 

To be fair my old 1GB GPU means running everything at Lowest (except Textures at 1/4) and pretty sure Stumps are entities as they do seem to 'pop' into being. In other words, there are probably a lot more stumps in the world, but my pc is hiding them fom me.. vengeful @%$*#!.. guess that's fair though, it's being forced to endure grossly unfair daily and extended torment when it should have retired to Florida long ago...

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1 hour ago, FA_Q2 said:

I have never had a real problem with vultures.  I cannot fathom what all of you are doing that brings them to you in such hordes....

Ride a bicycle through the burnt biome

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10 hours ago, ubai said:

In the early game...


They are extremely easy to avoid by staying in the forest biome. Honestly, everyone wants difficulty to be location based but then they also want to go to the tougher places during the early game and then complain that they get rekt. 
 

The vulture menace is perfectly balanced for the early game if you keep to the easy biomes and stay off your vehicles in the tougher biomes until you are out of the early game as you put it. 

40 minutes ago, ElCabong said:

Ride a bicycle through the burnt biome

....during the early game and then complain about the fact you want to go somewhere that is rated for a higher level character but you want to do it as a low level character and without any threats...

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A19 vultures tip

1) put spike on roof top to kill vultures

2) As soon as you spot them, get off your vehicle, kill the vulture.

3) If you are flying, use shift to fly faster.

 

Hold S to back off while the vulture fly closer to attack you, as it get into range kill it with spear, it is really easy to do. Pistol works very well too. I find it hard to kill it with bow.

As for inflection, know which POI has food/med crate, so you can find a cure. I always have splint/antibiotics in my vehicle inventory.

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6 hours ago, Roland said:


They are extremely easy to avoid by staying in the forest biome. Honestly, everyone wants difficulty to be location based but then they also want to go to the tougher places during the early game and then complain that they get rekt. 
 

The vulture menace is perfectly balanced for the early game if you keep to the easy biomes and stay off your vehicles in the tougher biomes until you are out of the early game as you put it. 

....during the early game and then complain about the fact you want to go somewhere that is rated for a higher level character but you want to do it as a low level character and without any threats...

I am not complaining. By the time I have a bike, I also have a full set of padded armor, some honey, and a blunderbuss.

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12 hours ago, Roland said:


They are extremely easy to avoid by staying in the forest biome. Honestly, everyone wants difficulty to be location based but then they also want to go to the tougher places during the early game and then complain that they get rekt. 
 

The vulture menace is perfectly balanced for the early game if you keep to the easy biomes and stay off your vehicles in the tougher biomes until you are out of the early game as you put it. 

....during the early game and then complain about the fact you want to go somewhere that is rated for a higher level character but you want to do it as a low level character and without any threats...

Vultures are not the problem, it is their implementation. What about all the other issues I mentioned? Pretending vultures are WIA despite the numerous issues cited by myself and others is disingenuous at best.

Also, what if you don't spawn in a forest biome? I spawned in the desert surrounded by burnt forest and wasteland. Sure, I could have gone to look for a forest biome, but that would have meant passing through the very biomes you said to avoid. Of course I could have stayed in the desert biome and starved to death, I guess. Not my idea of a fun game loop, but if that is the "right" way to play who am I to argue? 😛

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12 minutes ago, ubai said:

Vultures are not the problem, it is their implementation. What about all the other issues I mentioned? Pretending vultures are WIA despite the numerous issues cited by myself and others is disingenuous at best.

Also, what if you don't spawn in a forest biome? I spawned in the desert surrounded by burnt forest and wasteland. Sure, I could have gone to look for a forest biome, but that would have meant passing through the very biomes you said to avoid. Of course I could have stayed in the desert biome and starved to death, I guess. Not my idea of a fun game loop, but if that is the "right" way to play who am I to argue? 😛

Some of the other issues are already planned to be changed. In A20 specific zombies will only cause specific injuries.

 

WIA? Wounded in action? Nah, must be Windsor Islamic Association.

 

Spawning in other biomes might be changed to be always in forest who knows, but I don't really mind either way. For me the game should surprise me once in a while and if I get dealt a crappy hand it might mean my chances of survival ar minimal but if I then survive it would be exhilarating. And yes, I think in this case your best chance would have been trying to stealth your way out of the dangerous biomes.

 

 

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So a new player who spawns in the desert should immediately stealth up and crawl to the nearest forest biome. Sounds like a blast. 😛 Also, thanks for pointing out my typo: WIA should be WAI, working as intended, In the same spirit let me help you by pointing out that "survival ar minimal" should be "survival arE minimal". 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ubai said:

Also, what if you don't spawn in a forest biome?

As long as you try your best not to spawn inside a vehicle on day 1 in the desert then the vultures will leave you alone as you trek to the forest biome....

 

You need to decide whether you are talking about the actual early game or not. Most of your complaints have to do with how vultures interact with you once you are in a vehicle. In the early game you don't even have a vehicle. Stop trying to make this a newly spawned character issue when it isn't. THAT is disengenous at best.

22 minutes ago, ubai said:

So a new player who spawns in the desert should immediately stealth up and crawl to the nearest forest biome.

 

 

Yes-- but no stealth required. Run openly. Since you are on foot and your health is full when you spawn you won't have to worry about a single vulture attacking you.  You can also file a bug report since all new players are supposed to spawn in the forest biome. Spawning in the desert biome is not WAI.

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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You said I did not answer all your points. In the interest of being completely engenuous here you go....

On 7/31/2020 at 8:07 AM, ubai said:

They attack ridiculously fast

WAI. Their current speed is not a bug. It is intended. That's not to say they might alter the speeds slightly as they continue to develop but MM and faatal have both stated the zombie vulture speed is working the way they intended.

On 7/31/2020 at 8:07 AM, ubai said:

they can share space with other vultures

On 7/31/2020 at 8:07 AM, ubai said:

8 clawed megavulture clump ( I really think TFP needs to either implement proper collision for their mobs or balance everything around them being able to exist in the same physical space)

This could be a bug. Get a video showing vultures clipping into each other and merging together and post it in the bug forum.

On 7/31/2020 at 8:07 AM, ubai said:

Vultures now guarantee infection

Not true. I've been hit and not infected. It is a very high chance though and after the first hit if you are hit again the chance increases so making sure you don't get hit more than once is important to avoiding infection.

On 7/31/2020 at 8:07 AM, ubai said:

riding bicycles a frustrating slog

WAI Bicycles are best for the forest and snow biomes. There is zero slog for pedal bikes in those two biomes.

 

You usually get a bicycle when you are still pretty fresh in the game and the tougher biomes are going to take some extra skill and work to enter if you insist on doing so with a pedal bike. Vultures are faster than the bicycle so you can expect to be dismounting often and killing vultures. Or you can run on foot in the tougher biomes and not be bothered one bit. Once you get a motorized vehicle then it is easier to stay ahead of the vultures. You will still need to jump off and kill them but it is much less slog than a pedal bike.

 

On 7/31/2020 at 8:07 AM, ubai said:

In the early game when antibiotics are very difficult to come by, vultures basically create a frustrating loop of infection deaths that sucks all the fun out of the game.

WAI for those who do not respect the location based difficulty mechanics that are now being developed for the game. It was the same back when we had the huge city at the origin of the map. People would spawn in naked on Day 1 and run repeatedly into the city and die and then complain about the same kind of frustrating death loop. If you want to challenge yourself and test your skills then bike into the wasteland or burnt forest or desert repeatedly before you are prepared for it. But if you don't want that challenge then stop doing the behavior that brings it on. This is the issue with location based difficulty. Some players think they can just go anywhere they want since it isn't gated off. It is an open world. You are supposed to learn after the first time riding your bike into the wasteland not to do that any more. You aren't supposed to keep attempting it over and over and over again if it is too much to handle at your character's stage of progression.

 

On 7/31/2020 at 8:07 AM, ubai said:

This is before you take into account all the other new health conditions they give you (how exactly does a vulture break your leg? Beats me, but it happens all the time). Generally, an attack from just one vulture generally leaves me with infections, concussions (did it fall on my head?), abrasions, and sometimes the aforementioned broken leg, even though I'm wearing heavy armor.

WIP... The new critical injuries are brand new and completely random. So yes you can currently get some that don't make sense for the situation. That will be refined as they add additional injuries and can hopefully differentiate which injuries are possible given a situation. For now, they want us to test and experience all the injuries. The more you get hit the higher percent chance you get to receive a critical injury of some kind. So if you are getting hit a lot then you could certainly end up with a long list of injuries you need to fix.

 

On 7/31/2020 at 8:07 AM, ubai said:

Don't get me wrong, I like the new health conditions for the most part, but I have used at least twenty antibiotics in the first seven days, which is nuts. I just cheat them in now whenever a vulture attacks. I really don't see new players enjoying this at all, since infection is the one mechanic that relies entirely on RNG early game. A new player can make splints or bandages, and pain killers are fairly plentiful, but antibiotics are incredibly rare in the early game.

 

WAI based upon the design that players will learn. You aren't learning. You stubbornly insist on riding your bike through tougher biomes. New players who stick to the forest or snow when on a bike and stay on foot other places won't be dealing with any of that. Everyone has fun their own way. Some will find it rewarding to level up and eventually become strong enough and have a vehicle fast enough to cruise through the tougher biomes with just a few big vulture battles and plenty of remedies to fix the resultant injuries. You find it fun to go into tougher biomes before you are ready and then cheat in remedies for yourself. <shrug> To each their own.

 

On 7/31/2020 at 8:07 AM, ubai said:

Dying through your own choices with an occasional RNG death is reasonable and entertaining. Being stuck in an endless death spiral due to infections you have no control over leads to uninstalls and refund requests, which would be a shame. I love 7D2D but that is partly because I know how to edit the data files.

You ARE dying because of your own choice. There will be some players who quit and uninstall. There will be some players who figure out they should remain in safer zones until they are ready. There will be some who intentionally enter unsafe zones early on for the challenge. There will be some who cheat in gear and remedies to compensate for their inability to survive in tougher areas before they are ready. There will be some who mod the files so they can do whatever they want whenever they want without any risks or threats.  All are valid ways to play your own game in a way you like. But the idea that some players will quit is not a valid reason for the developers to abandon location based difficulty-- at least I hope they won't ever listen to that.

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16 hours ago, FileMachete said:

To be fair my old 1GB GPU means running everything at Lowest (except Textures at 1/4) and pretty sure Stumps are entities as they do seem to 'pop' into being. In other words, there are probably a lot more stumps in the world, but my pc is hiding them fom me.. vengeful @%$*#!..

I've got a 4GB mid-potato GPU and I have the same problem. I looked into it a very tiny bit and stumps are blocks just like trees are, so they ought to have an imposter to use for longer-distance rendering. I can see boulders and nitrate nodes from 200 blocks away, but the stumps don't show up until 20-30 blocks or so. I have to run a search-and-rescue grid pattern across the forest to make sure I cover everything.

 

I noticed that the treeStump block has this one line that trees don't:

<property name="ImposterDontBlock" value="true" />

Many other blocks have this property, and I can't make sense just from comparing the different blocks what the property actually does. I might play with this a bit to see if we can get stump imposters to show up. Maybe I can get tricky and substitute some other block's imposter for the stump. Hey, why are there fancy trashcans all round the forest? Oh, wait...

 

4 minutes ago, Roland said:

It is a very high chance though and after the first hit if you are hit again the chance increases so making sure you don't get hit more than once is important to avoiding infection.

True for all types of attacks, we should add. Not a vulture-specific mechanic. It was in the patch notes IIRC.

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Posted (edited)

You can also simply walk back at default speed.  Every single attack will miss even though they fly faster than walking speed...

 

That should really be fixed.  Complaining that vultures are a problem on day 1 is disingenuous, they really are not an issue unless you want vehicles to make you invulnerable.  I do not think that most players want that and I certainly know that I do not.

16 hours ago, ElCabong said:

Ride a bicycle through the burnt biome

Trust me, I have ridden a bicycle everywhere.

11 hours ago, Jugginator said:

0MPYoFK.gif

Ah, memories :D

 

Edited by FA_Q2 (see edit history)

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