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Demandred1957

Open Letter to TFP's...

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Posted (edited)

Part of the fun part of this game is learning how to build an effective base, which doesn't require much upkeep or cheese. I can have a mostly OP base by day 14 and maybe only replace one or two blocks on any given hoard night, and I generally have all my repairs done before 6am. I might have to do more if I have multiple explosions, but that is not too difficult to avoid either and is never anywhere near destroying my base.

 

The problem is people think they need to cheese the AI to have an effective base. 

Edited by Nfg
Double post (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Demandred1957 said:

Multiple pillars had ladders. What the video doesn't show is how the fps had dropped at that point to around 15-25 fps... Awfully hard to make control inputs when you are swimming in molasses, and harder to climb back up when you just fell into about 25 zoms. And no, I don't have a potato pc. Rather high end in fact. But with the zom count at 64 per wave.. There was a pit under that base, and by the time I had turned around and started lighting them up with the M-60 it was full of zoms.

Your video showed the lag. It wasn't nearly bad enough that you couldn't pillar up with no zombies near you. And if you managed to get a frame against the wall, they wouldn't be able to knock it down without taking out the whole wall. You turned around and decided to shoot instead. 

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5 hours ago, meganoth said:

What could work relatively easy is if that 50% ratio of vultures to zombies isn't fixed but a rising value the longer you sit on a bike. Means you can comfortably drive from or to craft base or a farther away POI you cleared. But ultimately they come in force.

 

I think this is reasonable.
In the end, and although I agree with the change, I don't see any harm in them toning it down a little. If the only goal is to prevent people from riding around in a vehicle for the entire duration of the BM, that goal has been met. Although I find it hysterical, there really isn't a need to swarm that many vultures on the player so quickly. 

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1 hour ago, Feycat said:

Your video showed the lag. It wasn't nearly bad enough that you couldn't pillar up with no zombies near you. And if you managed to get a frame against the wall, they wouldn't be able to knock it down without taking out the whole wall. You turned around and decided to shoot instead. 

In your opinion. they were on me until i barged past them and jumped up the steps they had made and got out of the pit. at which point I turned around, and as it clearly shows they were already jumping up out of the pit. And the lag the video shows wasn't nearly as bad as what playing it was.

 

But besides all that, which is way off topic, in my opinion, as the person that was playing it, I had a good plan, that i executed, and it wasn't op, or a exploit. And I see no reason for it to be nerfed.

1 hour ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

What could work relatively easy is if that 50% ratio of vultures to zombies isn't fixed but a rising value the longer you sit on a bike. Means you can comfortably drive from or to craft base or a farther away POI you cleared. But ultimately they come in force.

Even I would be ok with that actually. But what time limit? When I bailed to draw them away, I was in the 4x4 for aprox 30 min of game time, while I was trying to get a clear(er) path back into the base. But that was actually just up and down that little stretch of road twice, with turn around time. without looking at the video again maybe 3-5 mins irl time? (could have made it quicker, but did enjoy running them down for one pass)

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7 minutes ago, Demandred1957 said:

In your opinion. they were on me until i barged past them and jumped up the steps they had made and got out of the pit. at which point I turned around, and as it clearly shows they were already jumping up out of the pit. And the lag the video shows wasn't nearly as bad as what playing it was.

 

But besides all that, which is way off topic, in my opinion, as the person that was playing it, I had a good plan, that i executed, and it wasn't op, or a exploit. And I see no reason for it to be nerfed.

I'm sure the vultures will be dialed back after the vehicle damage system is in place. We will see if you like that better 😀

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Demandred1957 said:

Even I would be ok with that actually. But what time limit? When I bailed to draw them away, I was in the 4x4 for aprox 30 min of game time, while I was trying to get a clear(er) path back into the base. But that was actually just up and down that little stretch of road twice, with turn around time. without looking at the video again maybe 3-5 mins irl time? (could have made it quicker, but did enjoy running them down for one pass)

I don't know what the timing should be... that would be a trial and error type of thing. I can see books and perks having an influence on this though. It would be a missed opportunity if it isn't considered. Players could then at least set things up so that contingency plans revolve around those skills. Ever since the notion of a stealth build, there has been the issue of how useful stealth could be on a horde night. Perhaps a stealth player could get the maximum benefit.

Edited by AtomicUs5000 (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, meganoth said:

I'm sure the vultures will be dialed back after the vehicle damage system is in place. We will see if you like that better 😀

If it's something fair, then ya I'm sure I will. Until then, I already dialed them back for ya. Ez Pz.. only two or three of the little annoying things, and made it so the 4x4 and motorcycle is just *barely* faster than they are. if you stop or turn around they are right up your tail pipe messing you up..

 

 

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58 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

I don't know what the timing should be... that would be a trial and error type of thing. I can see books and perks having an influence on this though. It would be a missed opportunity if it isn't considered. Players could then at least set things up so that contingency plans revolve around those skills. Ever since the notion of a stealth build, there has been the issue of how useful stealth could be on a horde night. Perhaps a stealth player could get the maximum benefit.

Whoa, now that's a nice idea. Sounds balanced even. I just got done dialing the birds back in my game now too, so I wont have to rage here. And I think it's fair. limit of 5 max, made it so they can't just stone stop the 4x4 or motorcycle, and they are just barely slower than those two at top speed. so if you slow down at all, or turn around, or have to make a sharp turn, they are right on you. Since you cant go at full speed all the time unless you are on a main road, that's as good a compromise as I am looking for. (or am able to edit at my skill level which is none). Also since the bicycle and minibike are much slower, but also much earlier game, shouldn't be a balance problem, since you wont be fighting a horde that you would have to bail out on (i would hope) and if you try it, you are still going to get rekt.

I never was looking to just run around all night anyway. Just want a plan B so I can regroup if needed before I rejoin the fight.

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17 minutes ago, Demandred1957 said:

Whoa, now that's a nice idea. Sounds balanced even. I just got done dialing the birds back in my game now too, so I wont have to rage here. And I think it's fair. limit of 5 max, made it so they can't just stone stop the 4x4 or motorcycle, and they are just barely slower than those two at top speed. so if you slow down at all, or turn around, or have to make a sharp turn, they are right on you. Since you cant go at full speed all the time unless you are on a main road, that's as good a compromise as I am looking for. (or am able to edit at my skill level which is none). Also since the bicycle and minibike are much slower, but also much earlier game, shouldn't be a balance problem, since you wont be fighting a horde that you would have to bail out on (i would hope) and if you try it, you are still going to get rekt.

I never was looking to just run around all night anyway. Just want a plan B so I can regroup if needed before I rejoin the fight.

Sounds like fun actually to try to escape. I wouldn't doubt there is more in store for this in general. We still have vehicle mods to get. A "Faraday Cage" mod would be cool for this. Who knows... it might become a thing to experience as an alternative way to play. Might even be worth a new Steam achievement to survive an entire BM on a vehicle.

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12 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

Sounds like fun actually to try to escape. I wouldn't doubt there is more in store for this in general. We still have vehicle mods to get. A "Faraday Cage" mod would be cool for this. Who knows... it might become a thing to experience as an alternative way to play. Might even be worth a new Steam achievement to survive an entire BM on a vehicle.

well, yeah now that I think about it, it might be a fun thing to try on a fresh save, since I don't want to mess up my real one. Wasn't what I was thinking of when I was editing, I just wanted a way to regroup... but just what I got would be fairly challenging to try and do for the whole horde. They were spitting at me, and every time I slowed down just a hair, they were all over me messing me up, but the 4x4 has just enough power to break away after a few seconds of abuse. I was still taking a lot of damage to my health too, so that would be a factor as well.

Might have to try that with the motorcycle, just to see if it acts the same way. Was using the 4x4 as my test bench, so don't know if it could break away or not.

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11 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

The game is constantly balanced. Next patch try to shoot your gun in the middle of the night and a dire wolf might pick you up. Generally the game has a technical limitations how many zombies it can spawn in the worst case (8 players, low end PC clients), so vanilla will always have to be more about short bursts of danger instead of a continued presence of lots of zombies in the world.

 

What is so bad about cheesy bases when you are demanding in the same breath a more than cheesy escape vehicle. If there never had been vehicles in the game you would never have protested about missing one but accepted an objectively very harmless death as the penalty for a failed horde night or looked for ways to prevent that (like with a fallback base or running around with lots of coffee).

 

I'm saying this generally: If players are averse to change and having to do things differently from time to time, they should not peek into and play a game that is in development. Then there is never a moment something gets taken away from you,

 

So horde base building is generally not that hard, right? Especially on lower difficulties even a solid concrete block together with enough ammo is already keeping you from dieing. Add another and another block and you can last any amount of time. Why then do you still need an escape vehicle?

 

Your last sentence is puzzling: If they are susceptible to all sorts of base designs it means there are lots of successful base designs. Isn't that what we want? Variation in base design you can employ is a good thing in my book.

 

Dunno how to split quotes like you did, have to do it all in one like this

 

> The game is constantly balanced.

Sure, and that's a good thing. Me personally, I saw the number of zombies roaming around in cities reduced drastically from, I think A15? Back when you still can craft fridges, I don't remember the specific number. I'd prefer that it's sprinting zombies that pick me up but that's small details

 

> What is so bad about cheesy bases

I didn't say they're bad. I'm saying their existence basically makes the whole zombie AI invalid, and pursuing the dream of people getting swarmed to death by zombies in Blood Moon isn't going to bear fruit. A lot of effort goes to making sure that *this time* the AI won't be fooled, and as of A19 B163, that dream was quashed yet again. As the game progresses, the AI doesn't change their behavior. You get special zombies mixed in sure, but you're still using the same base you used to fend off Day 7 horde, just with concrete and a lot of turrets this time

 

> cheesy escape vehicle

and here's the thing: despite there being cheesy escape vehicles in the previous versions, you basically don't see YouTubers recommending that. It's not fun to not shoot zombies in your base when the entire point of the game is to, you know, shoot zombies in your base. People don't go around the forums saying "devs hate me! easily clear blood moon with this one weird trick!". Escape vehicles are emergencies, you use them when you can't hold the zombies off anymore. As far as death goes, taking into account your statement that it's "objectively harmless", then what's the problem with escaping such that rocket vultures are needed?

 

Even looking at the guy who started this, he fought off blood moon as long as he could, only going for the car when he screwed up. As far as I can see, from YouTube to discord convos, people generally play like that, and don't find out about the rocket vultures.

 

> If players are averse to change

This is a weird stance. People offer feedback because not even a giant megacorporation is an omnipotent being capable of understanding exactly what is objectively the best. Sure you say "our game our rules", then why even bother with discussions in the first place?

 

Most importantly, laser focusing on "vulture missiles" is a red herring. Vulture missile shows the direction the game is moving, and me, OP, and the guy he quoted dislikes the direction more than the vulture missile itself.

 

Frankly, we write a lengthy post elaborating on our points instead of simply typing VULTURE MISSILE REEEEE NO BUY because we like the game and want it to improve. What is good being subjective is implied

 

> So horde base building is generally not that hard, right?

This is exactly it! Building a base is easy! The fact that we have to hop onto our vehicle means something has gone horribly wrong, thus the need to escape.

 

> Isn't that what we want?

Is that? Because almost every patch I see patch notes describing fixes to some tactics. A19 I believe removes the steep pyramid design

For what it's worth, it feels less of "there are a lot of successful base designs" and more of "there are a lot of successful base designs that get our approval"

 

This relates to the actual point: the focus on the 7th day horde takes away from the other 6 days. I don't mind a big boss battle every week, but I don't think it should make the other 6 days bland

 

10 hours ago, Roland said:


Are you sure you clicked on the title you meant to click on?  How can designing the game to match its title be a distraction from the gameplay they are designing? 
 

Personally, I hope they moderate what they did a bit to make driving around in the open possible for a longer distance. But I also think that it is faulty logic to ascribe normal vulture characteristics to the fantasy zombie vultures in the game. 

 

So is the argument "it's good because it matches the title" or "matching gameplay to title is good"?

 

Because I'm saying neither is good. Not for the current state of development

 

Take for example, the 7th day itself. Aside from the red color tint, there's not much happening throughout the day until precisely 22:00 when the horde comes out, the mechanic that is supposed to kill you. I would say it'd have been much more exciting if, say, throughout the day the number of zombies that spawn outdoors increases progressively to signify that yes, today is indeed very dangerous, and the hunt is nigh

 

The focus on the horde to kill you takes away from the other parts of the game. Of course, I'm not saying that they're not working on other parts of the game, but instead of improving the zombies' AI for the blood moon horde, I'd say that improving on other AIs such as other NPCs (like the bandits they're developing) will yield better results.

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52 minutes ago, Demandred1957 said:

Whoa, now that's a nice idea. Sounds balanced even. I just got done dialing the birds back in my game now too, so I wont have to rage here. And I think it's fair. limit of 5 max, made it so they can't just stone stop the 4x4 or motorcycle, and they are just barely slower than those two at top speed. so if you slow down at all, or turn around, or have to make a sharp turn, they are right on you. Since you cant go at full speed all the time unless you are on a main road, that's as good a compromise as I am looking for. (or am able to edit at my skill level which is none). Also since the bicycle and minibike are much slower, but also much earlier game, shouldn't be a balance problem, since you wont be fighting a horde that you would have to bail out on (i would hope) and if you try it, you are still going to get rekt.

I never was looking to just run around all night anyway. Just want a plan B so I can regroup if needed before I rejoin the fight.

That sounds like a great solution...I'd recommend putting that in your OP so it doesnt look like your just here to complain....see a problem...propose a solution gets better reception from most people...

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8 hours ago, Nfg said:

The problem is people think they need to cheese the AI to have an effective base. 

The arguments I've heard for cheese bases so far are that the resources required to build them are low, the maintenance costs are low, and the resources required during the horde are low. So it's ideal for players who don't like building or mining.

 

My current base is for example a hatch base. It is designed for 8-12 zombies concurrent and the resource consumption during the horde is low. I use it mainly as a melee + shotgun base. The resource consumption for the horde and repairs is low but I invested about 4000 concrete and 2000 steel in this base until it was ready for the horde of the late game.


I had a base in A18 that could easily handle a late game horde of 32 zombies simultaneously. Often all 3 waves of the horde were done before 4am. But you had to feed such a base and it was hungry. 90000 iron per week just for the dart traps. Great for me but not for someone who hates mining.

 

You can build a cheese base in the first week and then it will work mostly unchanged throughout the game. The little resources you need can be found or bought at the trader.

 

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22 hours ago, Alpacko said:

nice try op, but this is a tower defense game at this point with some grains of shooting & looting rpg stuff inbetween.

But tower defense games are all based on the idea that you can build a base what survives an onslaught and not on the idea that we need to make the game progressively harder by nerfing base strategies and adding more absurd enemies so the players need to be extra cheesy to survive.

 

Rise to Ruins suffers from the same issue where the devs tried their best to make the tower defense aspect as hard as possible, first a pathing change, then more mobs and now we are at a point there where its almost impossible to survive without maximum cheese.

 

14 hours ago, Feycat said:

The game devs literally can't cheat. That's not how cheating works.

In the meantime Warframe Developers are known to cheat in almost all their showcased videos and only the livestreamed general gameplay videos are not cheated. 

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1 hour ago, Solomon said:

In the meantime Warframe Developers are known to cheat in almost all their showcased videos and only the livestreamed general gameplay videos are not cheated.

Feycat said that in response to Demandred saying TFP were cheating by adding in the vultures attacking vehicles if you try to run away in them on horde night.

 

Meaning the devs are not cheating, since it is literally their job and their right to set the rules however they choose in the game they are making. Saying that you feel like the balance is wrong is fine. Saying the devs are cheating because they added a mechanic you don't like is wrong.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Solomon said:

Rise to Ruins suffers from the same issue where the devs tried their best to make the tower defense aspect as hard as possible, first a pathing change, then more mobs and now we are at a point there where its almost impossible to survive without maximum cheese.

 

Thats exactly the reason to make the AI smarter AND less predictable, so it cannot be cheezed by simple pathfinding breaking shapes or non-accessible vantage points.

Only when defending goes back requiering reasonable builds and active weapon use, without (low resource investment) cheezing, then the enemies attack strength can be properly balanced to the efforts invested by players.

If a cheeze strategy is possible, the game will be balanced to have crudely stronger enemies, fantasy abilities or weaker blocks to offset this. And thats not a good end-result as it ultimately forces players to cheeze.

Edited by Damocles (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

My current base is for example a hatch base.

I don't see a hatch base as a cheese base, but yes it uses more resources then my 7x7 base. I build the walls two thick and 4 high until I get cops/demos then I add a second layer 6-7 high. I generally have it up to mostly concrete by day 14 just by looting stuff from POIs. Then I generally spend one day mining and can get at least the lower two layers to steal by day 21. I generally don't spend enough time grinding to have the whole base done. The trick is to set it up for molys and grenades to avoid the brass grind. Then just slowly fill in the base with steal after you get your first demo. Add in a roof of spikes for the birds and maybe spikes trenches if don't mind the xp loss. A cement floor two deep is also helpful when you start getting a bunch of demos, but I normally have an auger by then so that only takes a few minutes. I also tend to dent the center in so it's "closer" to me. Then just throw stuff at them all night. You can easily add a dart trap shooting down or make it a 9x9 and add dart traps shooting out from the center too. Then just use guns to help with cops, birds, and boardem.

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1 minute ago, Nfg said:

I don't see a hatch base as a cheese base, but yes it uses more resources then my 7x7 base.

I wanted to bring the hatch base more as an example of a non-cheese base that has a low resource consumption in operation but uses more resources for construction than many cheese base users seem to want to invest. 

 

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15 hours ago, Nfg said:

Part of the fun part of this game is learning how to build an effective base, which doesn't require much upkeep or cheese. I can have a mostly OP base by day 14 and maybe only replace one or two blocks on any given hoard night, and I generally have all my repairs done before 6am. I might have to do more if I have multiple explosions, but that is not too difficult to avoid either and is never anywhere near destroying my base.

 

The problem is people think they need to cheese the AI to have an effective base. 

would you share some screenshots please?

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Demandred1957 said:

Whoa, now that's a nice idea. Sounds balanced even. I just got done dialing the birds back in my game now too, so I wont have to rage here. And I think it's fair. limit of 5 max, made it so they can't just stone stop the 4x4 or motorcycle, and they are just barely slower than those two at top speed. so if you slow down at all, or turn around, or have to make a sharp turn, they are right on you. Since you cant go at full speed all the time unless you are on a main road, that's as good a compromise as I am looking for. (or am able to edit at my skill level which is none). Also since the bicycle and minibike are much slower, but also much earlier game, shouldn't be a balance problem, since you wont be fighting a horde that you would have to bail out on (i would hope) and if you try it, you are still going to get rekt.

I never was looking to just run around all night anyway. Just want a plan B so I can regroup if needed before I rejoin the fight.

I actually disagree completely.  Since gas is effectively infinite, you + vehicles take very minimal damage from birds, you can get out and easily kill them all quickly,  and you can just stay on roads and never mess up......that's not balanced at all.

If you wanted actual balanced vehicle escapes on a horde night then you'd need gas to be a limited and valuable commodity so that making the choice to drive for 8 hours was a significant decision rather than one not only entailing almost no risk but cheaper resource wise and always far lesser risk than staying and defending.  Anything that says "so long as I don't mess up it's a win/win and not messing up is easy" will not be balanced.

Alternatively, if you bail on a vehicle the zombies go into "destroy mode" at your base for a set amount of time. I'd say enough to cause significant damage but not enough to raze a base completely unless it collapses.  If you're willing to sacrifice the POI/base to get a safe night then that's fair.  But the problem is the ability to reliably sacrifice a trivial amount of resources to make everything safe and avoid spending alot more resources.

Edited by Ralathar44 (see edit history)
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1 minute ago, Ralathar44 said:

I actually disagree completely.  Since gas is effectively infinite, you + vehicles take very minimal damage from birds, you can get out and easily kill them all quickly,  and you can just stay on roads and never mess up......that's not balanced at all.

You're forgetting something. While you are busy killing the birds and maybe even repairing the vehicle, the rest of the Horde is catching up. And with the damage system that's supposed to come in A20, you might even end up with your vehicle not working anymore.

 

Currently it is safer to bail on foot than with the a vehicle. I've tested it. You can escape comfortably on foot unless you have the zombies on nightmare speed. All you need is a college jacket, some high performance running shoes and a stack of coffee on your belt. And if you have "Rule 1: Cardio" at maximum, you won't even need the coffee.

 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Raestloz said:

 

Dunno how to split quotes like you did, have to do it all in one like this

 

> The game is constantly balanced.

Sure, and that's a good thing. Me personally, I saw the number of zombies roaming around in cities reduced drastically from, I think A15? Back when you still can craft fridges, I don't remember the specific number. I'd prefer that it's sprinting zombies that pick me up but that's small details

 

> What is so bad about cheesy bases

I didn't say they're bad. I'm saying their existence basically makes the whole zombie AI invalid, and pursuing the dream of people getting swarmed to death by zombies in Blood Moon isn't going to bear fruit. A lot of effort goes to making sure that *this time* the AI won't be fooled, and as of A19 B163, that dream was quashed yet again. As the game progresses, the AI doesn't change their behavior. You get special zombies mixed in sure, but you're still using the same base you used to fend off Day 7 horde, just with concrete and a lot of turrets this time

 

> cheesy escape vehicle

and here's the thing: despite there being cheesy escape vehicles in the previous versions, you basically don't see YouTubers recommending that. It's not fun to not shoot zombies in your base when the entire point of the game is to, you know, shoot zombies in your base. People don't go around the forums saying "devs hate me! easily clear blood moon with this one weird trick!". Escape vehicles are emergencies, you use them when you can't hold the zombies off anymore. As far as death goes, taking into account your statement that it's "objectively harmless", then what's the problem with escaping such that rocket vultures are needed?

 

Even looking at the guy who started this, he fought off blood moon as long as he could, only going for the car when he screwed up. As far as I can see, from YouTube to discord convos, people generally play like that, and don't find out about the rocket vultures.

 

> If players are averse to change

This is a weird stance. People offer feedback because not even a giant megacorporation is an omnipotent being capable of understanding exactly what is objectively the best. Sure you say "our game our rules", then why even bother with discussions in the first place?

 

Most importantly, laser focusing on "vulture missiles" is a red herring. Vulture missile shows the direction the game is moving, and me, OP, and the guy he quoted dislikes the direction more than the vulture missile itself.

 

Frankly, we write a lengthy post elaborating on our points instead of simply typing VULTURE MISSILE REEEEE NO BUY because we like the game and want it to improve. What is good being subjective is implied

 

> So horde base building is generally not that hard, right?

This is exactly it! Building a base is easy! The fact that we have to hop onto our vehicle means something has gone horribly wrong, thus the need to escape.

 

> Isn't that what we want?

Is that? Because almost every patch I see patch notes describing fixes to some tactics. A19 I believe removes the steep pyramid design

For what it's worth, it feels less of "there are a lot of successful base designs" and more of "there are a lot of successful base designs that get our approval"

 

This relates to the actual point: the focus on the 7th day horde takes away from the other 6 days. I don't mind a big boss battle every week, but I don't think it should make the other 6 days bland

 

 

So is the argument "it's good because it matches the title" or "matching gameplay to title is good"?

 

Because I'm saying neither is good. Not for the current state of development

 

Take for example, the 7th day itself. Aside from the red color tint, there's not much happening throughout the day until precisely 22:00 when the horde comes out, the mechanic that is supposed to kill you. I would say it'd have been much more exciting if, say, throughout the day the number of zombies that spawn outdoors increases progressively to signify that yes, today is indeed very dangerous, and the hunt is nigh

 

The focus on the horde to kill you takes away from the other parts of the game. Of course, I'm not saying that they're not working on other parts of the game, but instead of improving the zombies' AI for the blood moon horde, I'd say that improving on other AIs such as other NPCs (like the bandits they're developing) will yield better results.

 

There is a simple rule in game design: The player needs to invest reasonable effort or take on dangerous situations to succeed, usually the more effort or danger the better the result. If you don't accept that rule aka axiom as true, we don't need to continue talking because you go against the combined wisdom of all game designers. 

 

From that rule follows that the pyramid design where the zombies just try to climb but never do the slightest damage is a pure exploit. Complaining that TFP is removing a valid base design with this is turning a blind eye to the fact that this is NOT and was never a valid base design unless the zombies have a chance to damage or climb the pyramid.

As soon as the zombies can do damge to the pyramid it is a valid base design, because it doesn't anymore violate the rule.

 

Most often when there is a change like that one with the pyramid, users seem to say something like "they took away ...", like it is something they owned or had a claim on. Fact is: The pyramid is still a design you can use, it isn't gone. But it is not anymore providing total invulnerability, it provides safety like every other wall, it is balanced.

 

If you need the OP cheesy pyramid design to survive then the game isn't easy for you, only the current incomplete, unbalanced game provides loopholes you can still use. Tell the developers the game is too hard for you, but don' tell them to keep a game filled with god mode devices to make it playable for you.

 

The game is also designed for you to die sometimes (I assume. Even most veteran players die from time to time). That is why the game has a death penalty that isn't severe. It still is a penalty for dying so dying doesn't just become a valid method to teleport or remove conditions like a broken leg (many players used it that way in alpha15 and 16). And it tells you you made a mistake. So yes, there is a difference between driving away in complete safety and dying, even if the penalty is harmless: The former simply removes any fear, apprehension, tension, pressure you might have and that is not good for a zombie horror survival game. Success can only elate you when failure is a possibility. 

 

Is a sports game still thrilling and suspenseful when you already know the result? Often it is still interesting to watch for the technical finesse of the players, but the thrill is gone because the suspense, the chance that your team might fail, is missing. A horror survival game also needs you to fear for your life.  You are free to mod the game into safe territory if the suspense is "killing you" (pun intended) but default vanilla game needs and wants that suspense

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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12 hours ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

Sounds like fun actually to try to escape. ... it might become a thing to experience as an alternative way to play. Might even be worth a new Steam achievement to survive an entire BM on a vehicle.

In another thread I built a 'racetrack' horde night base to see if I could survive on a motorcycle. I could, and it was a lot of fun. This is without nerfing the birds at all (tho I do think they need some balance adjustments). Difficulty: requires several SMG or shotgun turrets, which don't exactly grow on trees. I also didn't test whether the 'base' could scale to the later hordes with tons of radiated and demolishers. But as a proof-of-concept it seemed doable and an interesting challenge. Not recommended for dead-is-dead players! 🙂

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In the video made by Vedui there are definitely more than 4 birds, which is the number of birds I would expect for the default game with the 50% rule. So I guess he set it to 16 zombies per person on horde nights. So in a default vanilla game his situation would never occur and maximum 4 birds would swarm you. Is that correct?

 

 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, meganoth said:

In the video made by Vedui there are definitely more than 4 birds, which is the number of birds I would expect for the default game with the 50% rule. So I guess he set it to 16 zombies per person on horde nights. So in a default vanilla game his situation would never occur and maximum 4 birds would swarm you. Is that correct?

 

 

If that is the case...this is yet another reason not to overreact to what's in people's videos until it is experienced directly...

 

...its like this whole thread of discussion would have not been needed because the number of vultures would have been at a level acceptable to the OP....🤣

 

Edit: altho I do recall OP stating he plays 32/64 max zeds....which is ironic given one of the major gripes is too many vultures.... 🙃

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)

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