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Nexian

Make Crafted Items better than Looted

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One big problem with your idea is inventory space. They would need to triple it if each weapon type had 10 different quality parts.

 

I'm not sure that is realistic. And I'm pretty sure they wouldn't do it.

On 7/8/2020 at 8:30 AM, Nexian said:

It seems odd to me to max out a skill, but then need to simply find the best item anyway. But I also like the idea that you can find good items.

 

So, I was thinking, what if:

 

1. Item level went to 10, instead of 6. (bear with me)

2. Items only require one part, but parts have quality levels

3. 3 item parts can be crafted into a part of a higher tier

4. The crafting skills can increase the chance of finding higher tier items of their type

5. You can only find items of up to level 9 in the game world

6. [Edit] Crafting skill increase the range of random stats a crafted item can have

 

So, to get a Tier 10 handgun, you'd need one Tier 10 Handgun part as part of the recipe. How many total lesser parts would it need?

 

T9 parts: 3

T8 parts: 9

T7 parts: 27

T6 parts: 81

T5 parts: 243

T4 parts: 729

T3 parts: 2,187

T2 parts: 6,561

T1 parts: 19,683

 

What this does:

 

1. It allows more part drops and more gun drops without easily getting the final Tier of a weapon, tool or armor

2. We can limit the maximum tier of items dropped without making them feel like bad drops, as they build towards crafting the best items

3. It gives a longer progression track for each item to give longer-term goals to aim for

4. You, the player, craft your final item, building up and finding the parts over time instead of simply getting very lucky and finding it in one quick instant.

 

You can only find T9 of any item as loot in the world. But, a T9 is still an amazing find, as you only need to find 3 T9 Weapons or parts to craft a Tier 10.

In reality a T9 would be incredibly rare, with T6 being a more common end-game "good loot". But, all the items are still valuable as they all work towards making the best Tier.

 

This system would just make all drops valuable for items, but you'd still be extremely happy to find that extra rare drop, without it having to be your final item. 

 

Oh, also I'd say the tool/weapon/etc [Edit]would give the part back when scrapped, just none of the other materials would give back parts of a lower tier when scrapped (but not quite enough to make the higher tier part). This means you wouldn't feel like you're stunting your progression as much by crafting an item of lower than the maximum tier. This also means you can't easily re-craft items to try for better stats, needing to find more parts to try again.

 

As for combining parts I'd say the workbench could have an area similar to the forge for smelting, but it instead slowly "smelts" a stack of parts, turning 3 into 1 better part in the output.

 

And as an extra, for armor, we could adjust the combine cost and required parts.

e.g. If armor pieces each needed 8 parts of the same quality to make, but armor parts only needed to combine 2 to make a higher tier instead of 3, then a full tier 10 set of armor would need 20,480 tier 1 parts, very similar to the amount a single weapon or tool would need.

 

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I hate games with item degradation. Makes finding good items pointless for me and takes the fun out of finding a good item.

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5 minutes ago, HungryZombie said:

I hate games with item degradation. Makes finding good items pointless for me and takes the fun out of finding a good item.

Would you still feel motivated to look for better items if your current item didn't degrade as you use it? What you really want is a better balance between loot, crafted items and degradation, but that doesn't mean degradation is a bad thing at all. I don't know if you ever played Dead Island games, but they were a perfect example of a good balance in all those factors and more, because you always felt motivated to look for better stuff and you also always felt motivated to improve the weapons that you found with various things that could only be crafted after finding or purchasing the schematics. So there was a constant need to find materials for crafting, stronger weapons you could improve, because the enemies were also tougher as you got farther in the game. So yeah, good loot balance as well as degradation are actually important, but there are many more factors they need to balance and each of them must be balanced with the other factors in mind.

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What about degradation for field repairs? Field repairs could be done with standard repair kits, but always lowers durability or quality. This reduction would become the new maximum for that item, never to be raised to original level. Introduce weapon/tool repair kits that can only be used at a workbench and takes 5 minutes or more to complete, but has no degradation(or a slim chance). The kits would need weapon or tool parts as well as things like oil, steel and mechanical parts. This would mimic hurried repairs where you might drop a part and not clean it properly before reassembly or slightly bending a trigger group spring, versus meticulous care at home. Then we could craft the best stuff and have a chance of losing it.

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15 hours ago, Roland said:

In my opinion, they just need to re-introduce item degradation. The first time you repair it you get 75% durability. The second time 50% durability. The third time 25% durability. Then it is just broken and can only be scrapped for parts. In this way the item always keeps the same number of mod slots so no mods are popping off the item when it degrades and items aren't changing colors.

 

Then it doesn't matter if you found it in loot. It will eventually be gone and you'll need to either find or craft a replacement. Boom. Crafting has a more significant role. The thing that kills crafting (and looting) right now is that once you find that best item you have it for the rest of the game. Let it degrade away and now you will need to craft one until a new one can be found. Find two of something? That's great. Save one for when the first one breaks.

 

Tie stats to durability so that weapon and tool effectiveness degrades as the bar empties and you'll see people crafting to replace even before the one they found is completely destroyed.

Not a bad idea, but with "degradation" in, "random stat" must be out and T6 is back on crafting system or it would be an unfair system. I'm telling that because in my last save 18.4 I have found a lot of T6 M60, but really high damage, not many. 

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Three things to add...

 

1 - I can't support anything that increases inventory management. All those different levels of parts would be incredibly ponderous to deal with.

 

2- I think we should be able to craft tier 6 items.

 

3 - I support item degradation but I don't support stats being tied to the durability level of the item. You should get full stats until you break it then you have to find or make a new one.

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9 hours ago, mr.devolver said:

Would you still feel motivated to look for better items if your current item didn't degrade as you use it? What you really want is a better balance between loot, crafted items and degradation, but that doesn't mean degradation is a bad thing at all. I don't know if you ever played Dead Island games, but they were a perfect example of a good balance in all those factors and more, because you always felt motivated to look for better stuff and you also always felt motivated to improve the weapons that you found with various things that could only be crafted after finding or purchasing the schematics. So there was a constant need to find materials for crafting, stronger weapons you could improve, because the enemies were also tougher as you got farther in the game. So yeah, good loot balance as well as degradation are actually important, but there are many more factors they need to balance and each of them must be balanced with the other factors in mind.

I don't have a need/desire to keep finding better weapons. Once I have a great item I'm happy. I don't want that great item to break and become a crappy item after repairing it. 

 

I did love Dead Island. I don't recall the items degrading after you repaired them but it's been years since I've played. I don't really remember having to craft anything to beat that game over several playthroughs. I think I just used what I found, it was a pretty easy game. I just curb stomped everything.

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18 hours ago, Roland said:

In my opinion, they just need to re-introduce item degradation. The first time you repair it you get 75% durability. The second time 50% durability. The third time 25% durability. Then it is just broken and can only be scrapped for parts. In this way the item always keeps the same number of mod slots so no mods are popping off the item when it degrades and items aren't changing colors.

 

Then it doesn't matter if you found it in loot. It will eventually be gone and you'll need to either find or craft a replacement. Boom. Crafting has a more significant role. The thing that kills crafting (and looting) right now is that once you find that best item you have it for the rest of the game. Let it degrade away and now you will need to craft one until a new one can be found. Find two of something? That's great. Save one for when the first one breaks.

 

Tie stats to durability so that weapon and tool effectiveness degrades as the bar empties and you'll see people crafting to replace even before the one they found is completely destroyed.

I agree with the first suggestion, but a hard no to the second, a16 and I think 17 had tool.weapon effectiveness drop based on remaining durability and most people hated it. I would like, kinda like what dying light has, no durability loss etc, but a item only has a limited number of repairs before it'll be "destroyed" which only use them is to scrap it. Most items in dying light can take 3-4 repairs on average before its derstroyed for good, there is also a perk that gives a 20% chance to not use up a repair when repairing it, this part could come from that weapon/tools perk, like for mining tools, it'd be miner 69'er that has a chance per perk level to not use up a repair slot.

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Posted (edited)

I'd be fine with no loss of stats. Mainly I think we need to have items break after a number of repairs so that the player has to find or craft a replacement. I think the broken item should still be scrappable for parts as that will help facilitate crafting that replacement.

Edited by Roland (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

Weapons degrade 10% per repair (that still a lot of usage) when its 0% (broken state) it scraps for parts (the RP reasoning is you stripped only the working bits and tossed the broken down ones)

 

{you would always find a weapon with 100% Condition, durability can be as low as like 1-2shots before a repair is needed, but always 100% condition, so 10 repairs before it's broken status}

 

random stats stay

 

Crafting would need access to t6

 

it would be like this:

 

Perfect Blunderbuss (100-81 condition)

Great Blunderbuss (80-61 condition)

Blunderbuss (60-41 condition)

Weathered Blunderbuss (40-21 condition)

Deteriorated Blunderbuss ( 20-1 condition)

Broken Blunderbuss (0 condition)

 

(Condition names are optional, but we should be able to check the Condition at a glance, whether that's a Percentage or a title/word.)

 

just my 2 cents, and I would love this system, would be an adjustment for sure.

Edited by Synvastian (see edit history)
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My current game is also an example of why a longer-term quality system with the majority of loot being useful is good.

 

We're only on day 21, but we already have... everything. Power, all crafting stations, crucible, 4x4, the best armor/weapons (available at this gamestage), fully upgraded base walls that zombies just can't get into. 

 

We specifically didn't take any intelligence skills just so we had to find everything, but it was not a long process. We still have some Quality 6 stuff to find, but that's about it, and again, this is mostly a gamestage issue.

 

Suddenly all looting is just a bit pointless. We'll incidentally find Quality 6 items as we go, but it's not exactly a determined search. We'll just mostly be looting for brass. But it feels like we're done unless we wait ages for the GS to catch up with us, and even then, no more need to looting, we're just waiting for the challenge to come back.

 

FYI, we never left the town we found the trader in. Found everything in that one spot.

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22 hours ago, meganoth said:

I call double-BS to your BS 😉.

Crafting is a central part of the game, just look how much everyone is looking to get working workstations as soon as possible. But crafting is also a very straightforward endevour: If you want something and have the schematic (which isn't that had to find) it is just a very forseeable matter of time before you can craft it.

I will triple stamp your double stamp with two "easy" questions then...😉

 

Can you play through the game without ever crafting?

Can you play through the game without ever looting?

 

If the answer is not the same for both questions then it is not equal.

 

Hell, I'll even toss in a third question.

Can you craft without looting?

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40 minutes ago, Sydious said:

I will triple stamp your double stamp with two "easy" questions then...😉

 

Can you play through the game without ever crafting?

Can you play through the game without ever looting?

 

If the answer is not the same for both questions then it is not equal.

 

Hell, I'll even toss in a third question.

Can you craft without looting?

You can craft without looting, but you will need traders on rotation so you can sell basic "mining" materials like stone, lead etc to get what you need.

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Looting is the best way to go because it ties the reward to the higher risk. All the weapons in the game can be crafted with parts and materials that you get from the least challenging forms of content. If they were to make crafting yield the best items, they'd have to integrate materials that were obtained through challenging content.

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11 hours ago, Roland said:

I'd be fine with no loss of stats. Mainly I think we need to have items break after a number of repairs so that the player has to find or craft a replacement. I think the broken item should still be scrappable for parts as that will help facilitate crafting that replacement.

I could live with that, but only if the item showed up as red if its number of repairs is used up. Having to look up the number of repairs for every item in use before going out would really be senseless micromanagement

 

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3 minutes ago, Novamourne said:
6 minutes ago, Novamourne said:

Looting is the best way to go because it ties the reward to the higher risk. All the weapons in the game can be crafted with parts and materials that you get from the least challenging forms of content. If they were to make crafting yield the best items, they'd have to integrate materials that were obtained through challenging content.

 

That's fair.  But explain to me this.  How can you craft a simple level 1 9mm pistol with out looting the parts first?  Where do you get the ammo with out looting? How can you craft a cooking pot without learning to make a forge or looting the schem?  Is everything on an equal basis? 

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10 minutes ago, Novamourne said:

Looting is the best way to go because it ties the reward to the higher risk. All the weapons in the game can be crafted with parts and materials that you get from the least challenging forms of content. If they were to make crafting yield the best items, they'd have to integrate materials that were obtained through challenging content.

I'm not sure I understand.... you say you can craft with parts from the least challenging forms of content.... but looting the best items should come from the most challenging content.   What content are you talking about?   They all come from the same content.   If I need steel tools parts I scrap steel tools that I get from looting.  

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50 minutes ago, Sydious said:

I will triple stamp your double stamp with two "easy" questions then...😉

 

Can you play through the game without ever crafting?

Can you play through the game without ever looting?

 

If the answer is not the same for both questions then it is not equal.

 

Hell, I'll even toss in a third question.

Can you craft without looting?

Danm, he knows the forgotten art of triple-stamping. 😉

 

I don't think they have to be equal in everything.

 

Next someone says the trader should be equal to crafting and looting and that is why q6 or legendary weapons and all crafting materials you need should be available at the trader.

 

Or someone wants that looting should give you building materials in similar amounts to mining+crafting because ... parity. Surely not, if you want to build big, you need to mine and craft your building materials.

 

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2 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Danm, he knows the forgotten art of triple-stamping. 😉

 

I don't think they have to be equal in everything.

 

Next someone says the trader should be equal to crafting and looting and that is why q6 or legendary weapons and all crafting materials you need should be available at the trader.

 

Or someone wants that looting should give you building materials in similar amounts to mining+crafting because ... parity. Surely not, if you want to build big, you need to mine and craft your building materials.

 

I know we don't see eye to eye on this, and that is okay.  But, those are yes or no questions and you didn't answer.

I do see what you're saying, it's escalation.  But like I said before in multiple post...

7 Days To Die The Survival Horde Crafting Game.

Have we gone to bait and switch after all these years because TFP got a taste of money?

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Posted (edited)

Unpopular opinions here perhaps, but in my opinion the system should simply go like this:

 

 

OPTION A

 

Gray + Orange items - never repairable

Yellow + Green Items - 1 repair only

Blue items - 2 repairs only

Purple items - 3 repairs only

 

 

OPTION B

 

Take repairing out of the game.

 

 

OPTION C

 

When repairing a weapon the task should take absolutely ages. It's highly unrealistic that anybody could fully repair their gun in a matter of seconds. In my opinion it should be done in the workbench and it should take about 20-30 in-game minutes. A bonus with this system is you will no longer be tempted to toss away all the high-tier weapons you find; you might end up using all of them during a horde night. This would bring back crafting in a big way, and will create a system where T6 items are no longer the end-all-be-all. On top of that, this will slow down the economy; no more making tens of thousands of dukes.

Edited by MechanicalLens (see edit history)

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10 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Danm, he knows the forgotten art of triple-stamping. 😉

 

I don't think they have to be equal in everything.

 

Next someone says the trader should be equal to crafting and looting and that is why q6 or legendary weapons and all crafting materials you need should be available at the trader.

 

Or someone wants that looting should give you building materials in similar amounts to mining+crafting because ... parity. Surely not, if you want to build big, you need to mine and craft your building materials.

 

There are multiple ways to play this game.... you can loot, you can build, you can craft, you can use the trader.... all are viable ways to play.   One thing that is pretty universal is you need gear.   Each play style should give you the opportunity to acquire this gear.   Right now, you can loot the best stuff, you can visit the trader for the best stuff, but you can't craft the best stuff.   I just think you should be able to.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Kalen said:

They all come from the same content.

Essentially, yes, but technically, no. All content requires looting, but the degree of rewards that you get scale with how difficult the content is that you're doing. You can find weapons/weapon parts in small house. You can do low level quests and loot boxes will have parts for things that you get for little risk to your characters life. There's certainly a difficulty gradient when it comes to locations you can loot that you're either ignoring or unaware of. That gradient is the basis of my argument.

You can go into a town, clear all the little houses during the day (at little to no risk to you) and get all the parts you need to craft whatever you want to craft. The higher tier item rewards should come from the higher tier POIs and quests. I don't have a problem with crafting being on the same level, but the materials need to reflect that same level of risk to your character.

 

20 minutes ago, Sydious said:

That's fair.  But explain to me this.  How can you craft a simple level 1 9mm pistol with out looting the parts first?  Where do you get the ammo with out looting? How can you craft a cooking pot without learning to make a forge or looting the schem?  Is everything on an equal basis?

My response covers this, too.

Edited by Novamourne (see edit history)

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Just now, Novamourne said:

Essentially, yes, but technically, no. All content requires looting, but the degree of rewards that you get scale with how difficult the content is that you're doing. You can find weapons/weapon parts in small house. You can do low level quests and loot boxes will have parts for things that you get for little risk to your characters life. There's certainly a difficulty gradient when it comes to locations you can loot that you're either ignoring or unaware of. That gradient is the basis of my argument.

I dont think thats correct.   A gun safe in a shack has the same loot as a gun safe in a shotgun messiah.   There has been talk that eventually, the harder areas will have better loot... but that isn't the case at the moment and may never be the case.

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1 minute ago, Novamourne said:

 All content requires looting

I rest my case...

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2 minutes ago, Sydious said:

I rest my case...

You can rest your case there but the premise of your questioning and argument is still challenged by the remaining section of your quote. Not all looting is equal. That toilet in the burnt down house isn't giving you the same loot as the chest on top of Shamway.

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