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Nexian

Make Crafted Items better than Looted

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Posted (edited)

It seems odd to me to max out a skill, but then need to simply find the best item anyway. But I also like the idea that you can find good items.

 

So, I was thinking, what if:

 

1. Item level went to 10, instead of 6. (bear with me)

2. Items only require one part, but parts have quality levels

3. 3 item parts can be crafted into a part of a higher tier

4. The crafting skills can increase the chance of finding higher tier items of their type

5. You can only find items of up to level 9 in the game world

6. [Edit] Crafting skill increase the range of random stats a crafted item can have

 

So, to get a Tier 10 handgun, you'd need one Tier 10 Handgun part as part of the recipe. How many total lesser parts would it need?

 

T9 parts: 3

T8 parts: 9

T7 parts: 27

T6 parts: 81

T5 parts: 243

T4 parts: 729

T3 parts: 2,187

T2 parts: 6,561

T1 parts: 19,683

 

What this does:

 

1. It allows more part drops and more gun drops without easily getting the final Tier of a weapon, tool or armor

2. We can limit the maximum tier of items dropped without making them feel like bad drops, as they build towards crafting the best items

3. It gives a longer progression track for each item to give longer-term goals to aim for

4. You, the player, craft your final item, building up and finding the parts over time instead of simply getting very lucky and finding it in one quick instant.

 

You can only find T9 of any item as loot in the world. But, a T9 is still an amazing find, as you only need to find 3 T9 Weapons or parts to craft a Tier 10.

In reality a T9 would be incredibly rare, with T6 being a more common end-game "good loot". But, all the items are still valuable as they all work towards making the best Tier.

 

This system would just make all drops valuable for items, but you'd still be extremely happy to find that extra rare drop, without it having to be your final item. 

 

Oh, also I'd say the tool/weapon/etc [Edit]would give the part back when scrapped, just none of the other materials would give back parts of a lower tier when scrapped (but not quite enough to make the higher tier part). This means you wouldn't feel like you're stunting your progression as much by crafting an item of lower than the maximum tier. This also means you can't easily re-craft items to try for better stats, needing to find more parts to try again.

 

As for combining parts I'd say the workbench could have an area similar to the forge for smelting, but it instead slowly "smelts" a stack of parts, turning 3 into 1 better part in the output.

 

And as an extra, for armor, we could adjust the combine cost and required parts.

e.g. If armor pieces each needed 8 parts of the same quality to make, but armor parts only needed to combine 2 to make a higher tier instead of 3, then a full tier 10 set of armor would need 20,480 tier 1 parts, very similar to the amount a single weapon or tool would need.

Edited by Nexian (see edit history)

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Disagree, existing system more correct, best items must be only in loot and quest rewards. 

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I will leave my part of the debate at this...

 

Game is called...

7 Days to Die, The Survival, Horde, CRAFTING Game.

Not...

7 Days to Die, The Survival, Horde, Looting Game.

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"Survival" means you need to find stuff to help keep you alive. Crafting is on a very good position and that's an opinion from a builder crafter player. You want the best stuff, you need to loot, but all T5 tools and weapons you can craft are very good as well. So, I'd say no to OP.

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Posted (edited)

It used to be almost exactly like this: Combine two poor items in the workbench to create a better one.

 

It incentivized mind-numbing spam crafting. It wasn't good.

Edited by Junuxx (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

In my opinion, they just need to re-introduce item degradation. The first time you repair it you get 75% durability. The second time 50% durability. The third time 25% durability. Then it is just broken and can only be scrapped for parts. In this way the item always keeps the same number of mod slots so no mods are popping off the item when it degrades and items aren't changing colors.

 

Then it doesn't matter if you found it in loot. It will eventually be gone and you'll need to either find or craft a replacement. Boom. Crafting has a more significant role. The thing that kills crafting (and looting) right now is that once you find that best item you have it for the rest of the game. Let it degrade away and now you will need to craft one until a new one can be found. Find two of something? That's great. Save one for when the first one breaks.

 

Tie stats to durability so that weapon and tool effectiveness degrades as the bar empties and you'll see people crafting to replace even before the one they found is completely destroyed.

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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2 minutes ago, Roland said:

In my opinion, they just need to re-introduce item degradation. The first time you repair it you get 75% durability. The second time 50% durability. The third time 25% durability. Then it is just broken and can only be scrapped for parts.

 

Then it doesn't matter if you found it in loot. It will eventually be gone and you'll need to either find or craft a replacement. Boom. Crafting has a more significant role. The thing that kills crafting (and looting) right now is that once you find that best item you have it for the rest of the game. Let it degrade away and now you will need to craft one until a new one can be found. Find two of something? That's great. Save one for when the first one breaks.

Careful Roland. It almost sounds as though you would like something to go back to the way it used to be. 😁

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Ha...true. But I'm being positive about it. Plus it would be different than it was. No combining and no changing of quality levels. They removed the item degradation because of mods but I think they could probably return it with mods if done a different way.

 

Plus, nobody on the dev team has stated several times that item degradation is never ever coming back...

 

 

...yet.

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Posted (edited)

Agree with Roland, tools should become unusable after they degraded. In most crafting games they simply break and vanish. That they can be repaired limited times is already a concession. That they can be repaired indefinitely is way to OP and almost completely removes the need for crafting. It also reduces the need for certain skills. Why should one craft wrenches? Once you've found one, you have one forever. Usually people find many wrenches, but in what quality? And you would need them if you can not repair them endlessly.

 

In my A19 playthrough i crafted almost nothing, and especially not a single tool or weapon. Up to day ~20 i haven't even built a workbench, not because i couldn't, i found the receipe already before day 10, but i simply didn't need one. I found everything i needed and i even found everything in way better qualities that i could craft them. And since nothing really breakes and can be repaired for ever, there are no replacements needed either.

I only keep on duplicate backup equipment, because recently my backpack got lost after i died. Everything else is basically sold to the trader.

Edited by Liesel Weppen (see edit history)

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Oh, we have talked about "fancier item degradation".

 

Like... on every (or a chance on) non-workstation repair, add an invisible "degradation" mod from a list that makes an item worse in some way.

That way it can lose damage, durability, drain more stamina... anything, really.

 

There are are always hundreds of features that we could add to the game but limited time to do so.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, lord_ahriman said:

"Survival" means you need to find stuff to help keep you alive. Crafting is on a very good position and that's an opinion from a builder crafter player. You want the best stuff, you need to loot, but all T5 tools and weapons you can craft are very good as well. So, I'd say no to OP.

Huh, after reading the first part of your comment I figured it would be a yes rather than a no. This system needs you to go out and loot and explore WAY more than the current system.

4 hours ago, Junuxx said:

It used to be almost exactly like this: Combine two poor items in the workbench to create a better one.

 

It incentivized mind-numbing spam crafting. It wasn't good.

Agreed. But this system doesn't. It's just combining parts into better parts through a "smelting" on the workbench. Not crafting a full item and combining them. The only item you'd actually craft is the one you'd use.

 

 

The main focus of this is to make it so if you want the best item of a type, you need to really explore areas that would have that type, loot plenty of it's type and it's parts, even quality 1 are useful towards the end goal (which makes for less trash loot). This would also mean that the exploration and loot is required to get the best item, but the final best item comes from crafting it. I'm basically imagining a game world where, even on day 50 you're up to maybe Quality 8, maybe 9 if you're really lucky. And this is if you've been specifically looking in places where this item type drops pretty avidly. But for crafting grind? You've crafted maybe 5 of the item itself, as the upgrades have come in.

 

As for degradation I'd love it as a feature. In the above system I'd implement it as the item durability decreasing each time, until the item became useless, but you can use a part of one quality below the item to increase it's durability again. You eventually get the best, but it needs more to maintain it. This may also mean you'd use a lower quality for day to day use. Not sure how it would work with scrapping parts, unless a scrapped item gave 2 parts of a lower quality instead of 1 of the same quality.

Edited by Nexian (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Roland said:

Ha...true. But I'm being positive about it. Plus it would be different than it was. No combining and no changing of quality levels. They removed the item degradation because of mods but I think they could probably return it with mods if done a different way.

 

Plus, nobody on the dev team has stated several times that item degradation is never ever coming back...

 

 

...yet.

So, were gona be able to find MORE parts then right?
Id take that change.

1 hour ago, Nexian said:

Agreed. But this system doesn't. It's just combining parts into better parts through a "smelting" on the workbench. Not crafting a full item and combining them. The only item you'd actually craft is the one you'd use.

Absolutely not true in multiplayer. :p
I make many things for my players consistantly and them in reverse. Sometiems we dont take weapons skills till GS 30ish and thus use whatever weapons available.
After that when we do specialize, others can still make weapons you prefer till you find a great weapon. (Shotguns are pretty much always useful as an example, even without perks) Yet gatherers tend to be able to craft that gun. 😛 lol

I can see you are definately thinking about this from a soloist perspective and thats not always the case.
I dont even bother taking weapons perks till I have the parts to craft a new one... Zeds scaling is laughable.

Edited by Pichii (see edit history)

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10 hours ago, ColdGate said:

Disagree, existing system more correct, best items must be only in loot and quest rewards. 

Worth noting that the final item crafted can't be found in loot. But that this system makes loot far more valuable.

 

Right now you craft a Quality 5 Handgun, and that is all your crafting done. It needed a few parts and some points in the skill. Now you loot and loot and loot, picking up a plethora of quality 1-5 handguns that are all useless to you. Then you find the quality 6 gun, WOO, best moment, yay. Except, that was a single moment of excitement with no build up, just random chance, over and over. 

 

Now imagine you find and combine parts, or scrap guns into quality parts. Now the parts you find can be combined into better parts. You're on day 14 and quality 1 handgun parts are still a good find, quality 3 is great. You find a quality 5 gun, you can use it, or scrap it for the part on the way to a quality 6 gun. You get that Q6 gun after looting all these bits, but then the next Q5 or Q6 gun is STILL a good find, no longer redundant as they go towards making your Q7 gun, the Q1 guns and parts are still useful too. The use only goes away when you finally reach a Q10 gun, same as when you get a Q6. But this time, you've seen your progress, you've had exciting moments of random good finds, either for good parts of good guns, but you had them multiple times, and each one gave a clear indication of progress towards the final gun. 

 

I think the second system just gives more bursts of excitement for good loot and gives you a satisfying progression towards your final item that a single random chance does not.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Nexian said:

I think the second system just gives more bursts of excitement for good loot and gives you a satisfying progression towards your final item that a single random chance does not.

Crafted items are *supposed* to randomize stats and mod slots (I dont think its working atm) So, there is actually a reason to craft more...
That being said, id love to see an expansion on weapon crafting tbh. It feels so useless in current form. Lack of parts are really the reason we dont want to keep crafting for mod slots or incramental increases of stats.

Edited by Pichii (see edit history)

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11 hours ago, ColdGate said:

Disagree, existing system more correct, best items must be only in loot and quest rewards. 

Since they added the concept of parts to crafting, you cant craft without looting any way.   So there really is no reason to not let you craft quality 6 gear, IMO.   

 

Items should definitely degrade in some way as you repair them to make crafting more relevant.   In my last play through, I was excited to find the steel tools recipe and then laughed when the very next container had a quality 6 steel pickaxe.

 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Pichii said:

Crafted items are *supposed* to randomize stats and mod slots (I dont think its working atm) So, there is actually a reason to craft more...
That being said, id love to see an expansion on weapon crafting tbh. It feels so useless in current form. Lack of parts are really the reason we dont want to keep crafting for mod slots or incramental increases of stats.

This system wouldn't change the random stats. (It definitely randomises stats, not sure on mods).

 

It would work better in this system with the later suggestion of an item scrapping into some of the lower tier parts instead of simply giving your original part back, so there's some extra effort needed to re-craft an item. But I feel that only adds to this system too, wanting to craft not only the final tier item, but then eventually trying to craft one with maxed out stats. I'd also say that since the crafting wouldn't impact the quality of the gun anymore, it should impact the range of random stats gained when you craft it.

 

And yes, the system above would definitely increase parts dropped, at least for lower tier guns. For instance, I'm imagining at later game stages a factory dungeon container may contain, for example, 90 Quality 1 Parts, or 15 Quality 3 Parts, or a chance of a Quality 5,6,7 Item, like a handgun (7 being extra rare), and a incredibly slim but existing chance of Quality 8 or 9

Edited by Nexian (see edit history)

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31 minutes ago, Nexian said:

This system wouldn't change the random stats. (It definitely randomises stats, not sure on mods).

 

It would work better in this system with the later suggestion of an item scrapping into some of the lower tier parts instead of simply giving your original part back, so there's some extra effort needed to re-craft an item. But I feel that only adds to this system too, wanting to craft not only the final tier item, but then eventually trying to craft one with maxed out stats. I'd also say that since the crafting wouldn't impact the quality of the gun anymore, it should impact the range of random stats gained when you craft it.

 

And yes, the system above would definitely increase parts dropped, at least for lower tier guns. For instance, I'm imagining at later game stages a factory dungeon container may contain, for example, 90 Quality 1 Parts, or 15 Quality 3 Parts, or a chance of a Quality 5,6,7 Item, like a handgun (7 being extra rare), and a incredibly slim but existing chance of Quality 8 or 9

Remember the good days when vehicles ran on a similar system and what you used to make them affected its stats? Good times.
Add that to weapons with this system please. That actually sounds fun.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Sydious said:

I will leave my part of the debate at this...

 

Game is called...

7 Days to Die, The Survival, Horde, CRAFTING Game.

Not...

7 Days to Die, The Survival, Horde, Looting Game.

Looting is unfortunately the only thing that drives exploration, which unequivocally is one of the game's main pillars.

 

5 hours ago, Roland said:

In my opinion, they just need to re-introduce item degradation. The first time you repair it you get 75% durability. The second time 50% durability. The third time 25% durability. Then it is just broken and can only be scrapped for parts. In this way the item always keeps the same number of mod slots so no mods are popping off the item when it degrades and items aren't changing colors.

 

Then it doesn't matter if you found it in loot. It will eventually be gone and you'll need to either find or craft a replacement. Boom. Crafting has a more significant role. The thing that kills crafting (and looting) right now is that once you find that best item you have it for the rest of the game. Let it degrade away and now you will need to craft one until a new one can be found. Find two of something? That's great. Save one for when the first one breaks.

 

Tie stats to durability so that weapon and tool effectiveness degrades as the bar empties and you'll see people crafting to replace even before the one they found is completely destroyed.

I agree, that would actually boost both crafting and even looting. I think the stat drop shouldn't be larger than tier differences though.

Edited by RestInPieces (see edit history)

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8 minutes ago, RestInPieces said:

Looting is unfortunately the only thing that drives exploration, which unequivocally is one of the game's main pillars.

Don't give me that BS.  People will want to explore and loot anyway. Besides you have to loot for crafting now anyway.  If they don't that's fine.  Crafting is and has been a huge part of this game and you already have to go loot to do most crafting as it currently sits, and in no way is that part better than just some RNG crap that has been implemented. I just feel the perk system, crafting system, loot system should be on the same page and they are not, not even close.

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2 minutes ago, Sydious said:

Don't give me that BS.  People will want to explore and loot anyway. Besides you have to loot for crafting now anyway.  If they don't that's fine.  Crafting is and has been a huge part of this game and you already have to go loot to do most crafting as it currently sits, and in no way is that part better than just some RNG crap that has been implemented. I just feel the perk system, crafting system, loot system should be on the same page and they are not, not even close.

Hardly BS, if they lack any long-term reasons to do that. Constantly having to farm clay and iron or cloth and glue surely doesn't give them one. And I disagree with "it's fine if they don't". Anyway, none said that crafting isn't also one of the game's pillars, but it shouldn't make exploration obsolete at any point of the game. Therefore, for starters, we need an item sink which would boost both.

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10 minutes ago, Sydious said:

Don't give me that BS.  People will want to explore and loot anyway. Besides you have to loot for crafting now anyway.  If they don't that's fine.  Crafting is and has been a huge part of this game and you already have to go loot to do most crafting as it currently sits, and in no way is that part better than just some RNG crap that has been implemented. I just feel the perk system, crafting system, loot system should be on the same page and they are not, not even close.

I call double-BS to your BS 😉.

Crafting is a central part of the game, just look how much everyone is looking to get working workstations as soon as possible. But crafting is also a very straightforward endevour: If you want something and have the schematic (which isn't that had to find) it is just a very forseeable matter of time before you can craft it.

 

You need weapon parts? TFP can't make weapon parts really scarce because they want people to find weapons and weapon parts regularily (in weapon chests, safes...) to craft weapons up to quality 5. So this just becomes a matter of weapon chest grinding. But the best weapons should be something special, something where you can't plan ahead and say: Ok, I need 5 days of grinding and then I have the weapon in 99% of cases.

 

I would be ok with it if crafting the quality6 would need >10 times as much in parts as a quality 5. So that your chance to craft it in normal play is at a player level far above100. Anything less and it is just to easy to craft it.

 

By the way, I'm still waiting very much for legendary weapons to enter the game (for me much more important than the bandits). Ever seen a movie where the hero himself crafts the legendary weapon? Sorry, that seems wrong to me (I acknowledge this last bit is more about a feeling than really an argument)

 

And in closing: I would like item degradation, preferably just quality going down (often making one mod slot disabled, but  you can still remove the mod)

 

Just think how interesting slow degradation mods would suddenly become. At the moment their only use is to fill a mod slot.

 

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Imo Crafting should be at _least_ on par with loot/trader, for all the reasons mentioned. Plus a biggie for me, I do not like the trader system. Nor do I ever want to be dependent on it.

-----

I'd be ok with item degradation with a couple caveats;

 

1) Empyrion did at first, (not sure if still like this) allow only a few repairs for their top tier, loot only weapons, Caused enough angry feedback that they changed it so top tier was player craftable if they had the skill and a special part.

-- so I'd say no to degradation if top tier only came from loot or trader rewards.

 

2) Some items would need a -serious- increase in durability. I've easily gone through a Steel Pickaxes full durability several times in a single mining session.

 

3) Instead of each repair lowering durability, simply have a max number of repairs. Reason being, that last "health" would be awfully small on some items, especially lower Tier ones.

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Posted (edited)

  

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

You need weapon parts? TFP can't make weapon parts really scarce because they want people to find weapons and weapon parts regularily (in weapon chests, safes...) to craft weapons up to quality 5. So this just becomes a matter of weapon chest grinding. But the best weapons should be something special, something where you can't plan ahead and say: Ok, I need 5 days of grinding and then I have the weapon in 99% of cases.

  Just mentioning, the system above would let players find lots of weapon parts as the game progresses, and every single find for those parts would be useful to the player. I would say my suggestion would be more reliable in that you'd eventually get there, but it has the same level of special finds. Imagine you've finally, after 100 days, looted enough parts to have 2 Quality 9 parts, just one part away from being able to make a Quality 10 part for your weapon, but the expected goal is still about 50 days away.. but you open a chest, and bam, it contains a Quality 9 part of that type, random chance just saved you 50 days of looting lesser parts.

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

I would be ok with it if crafting the quality6 would need >10 times as much in parts as a quality 5. So that your chance to craft it in normal play is at a player level far above100. Anything less and it is just to easy to craft it.

Just to point out, a Quality 10 in the system above would need the equivalent parts of 253 Quality 5 weapons. Something that would take a long time depending on loot balancing.

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

By the way, I'm still waiting very much for legendary weapons to enter the game (for me much more important than the bandits). Ever seen a movie where the hero himself crafts the legendary weapon? Sorry, that seems wrong to me (I acknowledge this last bit is more about a feeling than really an argument)

This depends on whether the legendary weapon is the same type of weapon or not. If it's a unique weapon, then it's simply not crafted... but maybe limited in quality.

If it's a legendary version of a crafted weapon, then make the final craft a perquisite. i.e. in my system you can craft up to Quality 10, it takes a lot of effort. But, once you've crafted that quality 10, you (or people in your party) now have a chance to find the legendary version.

Although, my ideal would be the legendary for an already craftable weapon would instead be a legendary mod specific to that weapon.

 

Edited by Nexian (see edit history)

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1 hour ago, meganoth said:

I would be ok with it if crafting the quality6 would need >10 times as much in parts as a quality 5. So that your chance to craft it in normal play is at a player level far above100. Anything less and it is just to easy to craft it.

 

 

 

Except by the time you're level 100, you've found just about every weapon at quality 6 anyway.   I'm at 65 and have most weapons and tools at quality 6.   Personal preference, but I find it much more rewarding to perk up a skill, find the necessary components and craft the gear I'm going to use than to find better gear in a pile of trash.

 

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8 hours ago, Roland said:

In my opinion, they just need to re-introduce item degradation. The first time you repair it you get 75% durability. The second time 50% durability. The third time 25% durability. Then it is just broken and can only be scrapped for parts. In this way the item always keeps the same number of mod slots so no mods are popping off the item when it degrades and items aren't changing colors.

 

Then it doesn't matter if you found it in loot. It will eventually be gone and you'll need to either find or craft a replacement. Boom. Crafting has a more significant role. The thing that kills crafting (and looting) right now is that once you find that best item you have it for the rest of the game. Let it degrade away and now you will need to craft one until a new one can be found. Find two of something? That's great. Save one for when the first one breaks.

 

Tie stats to durability so that weapon and tool effectiveness degrades as the bar empties and you'll see people crafting to replace even before the one they found is completely destroyed.

To add to this idea, lower quality items should have lower durability to start with.

 

Example Only:

Grey - 20 uses (Unrepairable, melee), 40 uses (Unrepairable, ranged)

Orange - 40 uses (melee), 80 uses (ranged)

Yellow - 60 uses (melee), 120 uses (ranged)

Green - 80 uses (melee), 160 uses (ranged)

Blue - 100 uses (melee), 200 uses (ranged)

Purple - 120 uses (melee), 240 uses (ranged)

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