console updates rethink - sign petition

[alden666]

55 minutes ago, SylenThunder said:

We know because we've gone from a16 to a17. The entire way worlds are managed changed, which would require a full wipe of the world. Progression was completely re-worked, so you characters would get wiped. Because the old save data is no longer compatible with the new system.

This alone means that Sony and Microsoft will not allow it. Since TellTale billed the game as complete, they are unable to push an update that would depreciate current save data and force a wipe. If TellTale had properly listed the game as a Alpha port, then this wouldn't be an issue.

 

That's not even getting into the bits where your console hardware doesn't meet the gameplay specs on newer versions though. Your hardware will struggle greatly to maintain a playable FPS without severe stuttering and freezes. I cover this in detail in the Sitcky.

I don't know why the issue with old saves not being compatible is being brought up now. Let's take a look at the PS4 updates; Version 1.14 brought 50+ new items, new block types, new recipe, farming improvements, chemistry station, skill update.  Version 1.16 introduced traders for the first time as well as major changes to the Navezgane map through new POIs. Version 1.17 made changes to the perk system, removing some. All these major changes basically "broke" old saves and if you wanted to experience the changes, you need to create a news save. So, why is this being used as an argument now to not update the game?

On the issue of whether the consoles can handle A16 or 17 changes: The next update to the console was close to getting released before Telltale folded up, indicating that the console can indeed handle more of the things that are present in the newer PC version. What those things are, we do not know. Maybe the console can handle only a handful of them, the addition of the turrets perhaps, maybe the new weapons, maybe the new vehicles, maybe electric system. These things seem technically reasonable enough to be patched to the console version. Can it handle the newer textures and the other newer technical aspects -- you're saying no, some have doubts about what you are saying and think it is possible. So, why can't the company call a few of the game porters in the industry to make an assessment? I'll tell you why -- because they already adopted a defeatist attitude. What's the harm in contacting some of those companies to make an assessment if they really want to make things right?

You know the old saying that goes something like if a person do not want to do something, he/she can find an unlimited number of excuses not to do it. And that when a person really wants to do something, he/she will find a way to do it in full or partially. What is happening is exactly that. The Fun Pimps simply do not want to do anything at this point.

15 minutes ago, Nef said:

I see someone on Reddit is quoting you, lol. Two people arguing about the port. Lotta people just don't understand it actually can't run on the hardware. The hardware's the issue, not the game's code. Even after gold optimizations the last gen still wouldn't be able to handle the new engine and stuff. It barely handled previous alphas, and I don't know if I count "25fps on medium graphics with one base" as "handling it." 

"Which is kinda pathetic since it is just a Unity game. What are they doing wrong with their code if it can't run on modern gen systems."

"It has nothing to do with their code, it's the hardware itself. It's the same reason why Space Engineers on PC has 16 to 124 player servers, but on Xbox, it's only capable of 2 player co-op, 4 if you use split screen on two Xbox One X's, the souped up version of the console. This also took them 7 years to achieve.

The hardware simply isn't capable of handling an entire dynamic world. It simply doesn't have enough RAM or a CPU to keep up. 8GB is the absolute bare minimum to run this game, on top of that, Microsoft uses an archaic offshoot of FAT32 (2001) for its modern memory in the Xbox, which is a huge reason for all the MD5 errors still present on that system. That file allocation system is just not capable of running 7 Days.

"But CoD runs at 60FPS on Ultra on Xbox!" Yes, and CoD is a game that is 99% static, with the only things being computed are player models moving, and some particle effects from explosions and stuff. Deformation are just scripted animations, like a car exploding and being replaced with a dead car model. (hitscan is hitscan, no projectile calculations like Battlefield)

Games lik 7 Days, SE, are dynamic, real-time, physics calculations, going on, at all times. The game is making sure the entire world is doing what it needs to be doing at any given time, even that dirt block below your feet. It's also not spaghetti code. This ain't no Yandere Simulator if else party."

(This goes on for paragraphs and paragraphs, but at the end they added your quote about saves cause the person was arguing if the dev was competent the saves would work.)

Like I said, I don't understand why the issue of older saves not being compatible has become an issue now when it wasn't in the past. Previous patches on the consoles required players who want to experience the major changes to create a new save. So, why is this being brought up just now if Sony and MS do not allow these kinds of things?

[Laz Man]

11 minutes ago, alden666 said:

I don't know why the issue with old saves not being compatible is being brought up now. Let's take a look at the PS4 updates; Version 1.14 brought 50+ new items, new block types, new recipe, farming improvements, chemistry station, skill update.  Version 1.16 introduced traders for the first time as well as major changes to the Navezgane map through new POIs. Version 1.17 made changes to the perk system, removing some. All these major changes basically "broke" old saves and if you wanted to experience the changes, you need to create a news save. So, why is this being used as an argument now to not update the game?

On the issue of whether the consoles can handle A16 or 17 changes: The next update to the console was close to getting released before Telltale folded up, indicating that the console can indeed handle more of the things that are present in the newer PC version. What those things are, we do not know. Maybe the console can handle only a handful of them, the addition of the turrets perhaps, maybe the new weapons, maybe the new vehicles, maybe electric system. These things seem technically reasonable enough to be patched to the console version. Can it handle the newer textures and the other newer technical aspects -- you're saying no, some have doubts about what you are saying and think it is possible. So, why can't the company call a few of the game porters in the industry to make an assessment? I'll tell you why -- because they already adopted a defeatist attitude. What's the harm in contacting some of those companies to make an assessment if they really want to make things right?

You know the old saying that goes something like if a person do not want to do something, he/she can find an unlimited number of excuses not to do it. And that when a person really wants to do something, he/she will find a way to do it in full or partially. What is happening is exactly that. The Fun Pimps simply do not want to do anything at this point.

Like I said, I don't understand why the issue of older saves not being compatible has become an issue now when it wasn't in the past. Previous patches on the consoles required players who want to experience the major changes to create a new save. So, why is this being brought up just now if Sony and MS do not allow these kinds of things?

Just a guess, I think there is a difference between breaking a save versus starting a new one to experience added new contact.  I dont own the console version so I dont have first hand knowledge of losing a save because of an update.

[Nef]

36 minutes ago, alden666 said:

I don't know why the issue with old saves not being compatible is being brought up now. Let's take a look at the PS4 updates; Version 1.14 brought 50+ new items, new block types, new recipe, farming improvements, chemistry station, skill update.  Version 1.16 introduced traders for the first time as well as major changes to the Navezgane map through new POIs. Version 1.17 made changes to the perk system, removing some. All these major changes basically "broke" old saves and if you wanted to experience the changes, you need to create a news save. So, why is this being used as an argument now to not update the game?

On the issue of whether the consoles can handle A16 or 17 changes: The next update to the console was close to getting released before Telltale folded up, indicating that the console can indeed handle more of the things that are present in the newer PC version. What those things are, we do not know. Maybe the console can handle only a handful of them, the addition of the turrets perhaps, maybe the new weapons, maybe the new vehicles, maybe electric system. These things seem technically reasonable enough to be patched to the console version. Can it handle the newer textures and the other newer technical aspects -- you're saying no, some have doubts about what you are saying and think it is possible. So, why can't the company call a few of the game porters in the industry to make an assessment? I'll tell you why -- because they already adopted a defeatist attitude. What's the harm in contacting some of those companies to make an assessment if they really want to make things right?

You know the old saying that goes something like if a person do not want to do something, he/she can find an unlimited number of excuses not to do it. And that when a person really wants to do something, he/she will find a way to do it in full or partially. What is happening is exactly that. The Fun Pimps simply do not want to do anything at this point.

Like I said, I don't understand why the issue of older saves not being compatible has become an issue now when it wasn't in the past. Previous patches on the consoles required players who want to experience the major changes to create a new save. So, why is this being brought up just now if Sony and MS do not allow these kinds of things?

Talk about timing. Someone else said it for me to another person. 

In regards to what they said, like a PoI that no longer exists.

[SylenThunder]

56 minutes ago, alden666 said:

I don't know why the issue with old saves not being compatible is being brought up now. Let's take a look at the PS4 updates; Version 1.14 brought 50+ new items, new block types, new recipe, farming improvements, chemistry station, skill update.  Version 1.16 introduced traders for the first time as well as major changes to the Navezgane map through new POIs. Version 1.17 made changes to the perk system, removing some. All these major changes basically "broke" old saves and if you wanted to experience the changes, you need to create a news save. So, why is this being used as an argument now to not update the game?

These were just additions, not a complete re-structure.  The way blocks are managed and listed in both the core files, and in the saved game data is completely different from a16 to a17. So much so that TFP even made a conversion tool so that we could transform custom prefabs from the older version to be compatible to the new version.

The same goes with the progression data. The whole system was re-worked in a16, and then again in a17 even further.

 

For the console you could get block and world updates for a15 and 16 without having to implement the progression changes. Then your old saves are still fully functional, but in order to see any new content, you will need to start a new save.  Starting with a17 the entire core system that these things ride on is changed, and the Unity version was updated. This change results in all previous saves being 100% incompatible with the client itself, and added mechanics brings the base hardware requirement beyond what the console is capable of.

 

And it's not that we're just using this now. I've been telling you folk this very same thing for years, you just don't want to listen. It's like you can't face reality because it will break your little bubble.

[alden666]

9 minutes ago, SylenThunder said:

For the console you could get block and world updates for a15 and 16 without having to implement the progression changes. Then your old saves are still fully functional, but in order to see any new content, you will need to start a new save.  Starting with a17 the entire core system that these things ride on is changed, and the Unity version was updated. This change results in all previous saves being 100% incompatible with the client itself, and added mechanics brings the base hardware requirement beyond what the console is capable of.

If this is true, then they should bring the full features over from these version updates then. If A16 is the furthest that the console version can go, I can accept that. I am not an unreasonable person (although I still prefer if they would have a game porter make an assessment and tell us the findings if it is true that his is the furthest they can go.)

IIRC, the major patches in console did render outdated multiplayer saves unplayable. Sony and Microsoft's rules were already being violated before in the past.

[Nef]

17 minutes ago, SylenThunder said:

These were just additions, not a complete re-structure.  The way blocks are managed and listed in both the core files, and in the saved game data is completely different from a16 to a17. So much so that TFP even made a conversion tool so that we could transform custom prefabs from the older version to be compatible to the new version.

The same goes with the progression data. The whole system was re-worked in a16, and then again in a17 even further.

 

For the console you could get block and world updates for a15 and 16 without having to implement the progression changes. Then your old saves are still fully functional, but in order to see any new content, you will need to start a new save.  Starting with a17 the entire core system that these things ride on is changed, and the Unity version was updated. This change results in all previous saves being 100% incompatible with the client itself, and added mechanics brings the base hardware requirement beyond what the console is capable of.

 

And it's not that we're just using this now. I've been telling you folk this very same thing for years, you just don't want to listen. It's like you can't face reality because it will break your little bubble.

Every day on Twitter I have to explain that no, it's not bad optimization, no, it's not sphagetti code, it's the hardware, and the limitations placed on said limited hardware by Microsoft and Sony. Sure, could IG have squeezed a tiny bit more power out of the X1 and PS4 and got one more little update out like a bit of a16's update? Sure. But beyond that, it just wouldn't physically work, and on top of that issue of the hardware already not being able to handle the new updates, Microsoft and Sony said "you can't break a save game because this is a released game." Which limited what we could do/get even further. Even if TT didn't collapse, the consoles wouldn't have gone much farther than they already did until next-gen came out. 

2 minutes ago, alden666 said:

If this is true, then they should bring the full features over from these version updates then. If A16 is the furthest that the console version can go, I can accept that. I am not an unreasonable person (although I still prefer if they would have a game porter make an assessment and tell us the findings if it is true that his is the furthest they can go.)

IIRC, the major patches in console did render outdated multiplayer saves unplayable. Sony and Microsoft's rules were already being violated before in the past.

IG were in the process of bringing over what was capable, but TT collapsed just before they finished that final update. No one knows if they still have the update or not.

[alden666]

14 minutes ago, Nef said:

 

IG were in the process of bringing over what was capable, but TT collapsed just before they finished that final update. No one knows if they still have the update or not.

It seems reasonable to assume they still have that, that is if they haven't already given it to TFP. TFP should make the effort to communicate with them to find out and then tell us so that if it needs to be bought from them and need funding, then perhaps console players can help.

[Nef]

What players should really be mad about, is Microsoft not allowing us to have letters on console because they didn't want us spelling bad words. ...in a grimdark post apocalypse. "what if they spell '@%$*#!' though?" Which is the strangest thing, as the game's rated M...

9 minutes ago, alden666 said:

It seems reasonable to assume they still have that, that is if they haven't already given it to TFP. TFP should make the effort to communicate with them to find out and then tell us so that if it needs to be bought from them and need funding, then perhaps console players can help.

My best guess atm is IG probably have that build saved somewhere, but no negotiations have taken place yet. TFP would probably have to hire them to finish the update, and things get expensive fast. Not that IG would charge them millions, but more all the hassle of setting up publishing again, hiring them, going through Sony/MS QA, paying and setting up all the fees, etc. They've mostly just doubled down on finishing the game on PC first so their focus isn't divided between trying to find a publisher for console to get out one last update. 

[Ralco]

2 hours ago, SylenThunder said:

We know because we've gone from a16 to a17. The entire way worlds are managed changed, which would require a full wipe of the world. Progression was completely re-worked, so you characters would get wiped. Because the old save data is no longer compatible with the new system.

This alone means that Sony and Microsoft will not allow it. Since TellTale billed the game as complete, they are unable to push an update that would depreciate current save data and force a wipe. If TellTale had properly listed the game as a Alpha port, then this wouldn't be an issue.

 

That's not even getting into the bits where your console hardware doesn't meet the gameplay specs on newer versions though. Your hardware will struggle greatly to maintain a playable FPS without severe stuttering and freezes. I cover this in detail in the Sitcky.

But again the updates were always incompatible with our old saves we always had to restart and play anew, if this is a policy put in place after 2017 then it makes sense but if it's always been in place then how was the game ever being updated. Next the game is clearly listed as in alpha which is incorrect as even on pc its labeled as alpha when it's actually in early access, alpha is the stage where your game is feature complete and you stop adding to it. So if its labeled as alpha on both there's a case to be made that it wasn't in fact sold as a complete game. 

[Nef]

3 minutes ago, Ralco said:

But again the updates were always incompatible with our old saves we always had to restart and play anew, if this is a policy put in place after 2017 then it makes sense but if it's always been in place then how was the game ever being updated. Next the game is clearly listed as in alpha which is incorrect as even on pc its labeled as alpha when it's actually in early access, alpha is the stage where your game is feature complete and you stop adding to it. So if its labeled as alpha on both there's a case to be made that it wasn't in fact sold as a complete game. 

No no, beta is feature complete. Alpha is when you're still adding to it. The game is also listed as complete on Xbox and PS5, not alpha. The game's only in alpha on PC.

The updates also didn't break save games. That's the difference. You could still play your save all you wanted through all console updates, all the way from 1.0 till it stopped. No update corrupted old saves. 

[SylenThunder]

2 minutes ago, Ralco said:

But again the updates were always incompatible with our old saves we always had to restart and play anew, if this is a policy put in place after 2017 then it makes sense but if it's always been in place then how was the game ever being updated. Next the game is clearly listed as in alpha which is incorrect as even on pc its labeled as alpha when it's actually in early access, alpha is the stage where your game is feature complete and you stop adding to it.

Again with the incorrect information. You never HAD to wipe your old saves. they were always compatible with the new versions, they just didn't have the new features. You only had to start a fresh game to experience the added content, or to have a bug fixed.

This message was in every patch for the console.

Quote

You should NOT need to start a new save unless otherwise stated by the team.

Then the detailed patch notes would list if they needed a wipe to experience the content/fix.
 

6 minutes ago, Ralco said:

So if its labeled as alpha on both there's a case to be made that it wasn't in fact sold as a complete game. 

It was never once labeled as a Alpha on the console.

[Ralco]

8 minutes ago, SylenThunder said:

Again with the incorrect information. You never HAD to wipe your old saves. they were always compatible with the new versions, they just didn't have the new features. You only had to start a fresh game to experience the added content, or to have a bug fixed.

This message was in every patch for the console.

Then the detailed patch notes would list if they needed a wipe to experience the content/fix.
 

It was never once labeled as a Alpha on the console.

Then what's the A mean? Also having to wipe our saves means the updates arent compatible, we aren't asking to get to a19 we're talking about updating the game at least a little, no one expects this game to be a 1 for 1 copy of the pc version on console but abandoning the game in favor of selling us a new game next gen makes everyone who purchased the game already very displeased tfp themselves stated that they wanted the rights back so they could continue to support the console version and if by support they meant make a new one I dont really want their support. 

[Nef]

48 minutes ago, Ralco said:

Then what's the A mean? Also having to wipe our saves means the updates arent compatible, we aren't asking to get to a19 we're talking about updating the game at least a little, no one expects this game to be a 1 for 1 copy of the pc version on console but abandoning the game in favor of selling us a new game next gen makes everyone who purchased the game already very displeased tfp themselves stated that they wanted the rights back so they could continue to support the console version and if by support they meant make a new one I dont really want their support. 

Well PC is still in the alpha phase. We're on alpha 19. Xbox is on like 1.14. As in 1.0 full release with some patches. It got like 10 patches in its time. 

[Ralco]

26 minutes ago, Nef said:

Well PC is still in the alpha phase. We're on alpha 19. Xbox is on like 1.14. As in 1.0 full release with some patches. It got like 10 patches in its time. 

The build says A1.16 on xbox, 

[Nef]

33 minutes ago, Ralco said:

The build says A1.16 on xbox, 

Where does it say that? 

[SylenThunder]

15 minutes ago, Nef said:

Where does it say that? 

Nowhere on the front.

 

And even if it says it on the back, there is no identification that the A in the build number means Alpha.

 

This was sold as a completed product. Not an Alpha. That has been a known fact since before it was available for purchase.

 

 

EDIT:  Was able to find the back cover for the PS4. (I only have the digital version.) It doesn't mention a version anywhere.

[Nef]

15 minutes ago, SylenThunder said:

Nowhere on the front.

 

And even if it says it on the back, there is no identification that the A in the build number means Alpha.

 

This was sold as a completed product. Not an Alpha. That has been a known fact since before it was available for purchase.

 

 

EDIT:  Was able to find the back cover for the PS4. (I only have the digital version.) It doesn't mention a version anywhere.

And last I played on Xbox, the version number had no A in front of it on the title screen, hence me using 1.14 as that was the last time I played 7 Days on Xbox so know it's at least on that version. 

I don't have an Xbox handy after switching to PC, but the version number's always on the start screen. So should be easy to get from anyone who has it on console.

[SylenThunder]

Here is some pre-order artwork that doesn't include any mention of it being an Alpha.

 

 

 

Oh, finally found (don't know why the hell this is so hard to find) a picture with the back of the X-Box version.

 

The text is really hard to make out, but at a glance looks really close to the PS4's text.  I'll see if I can enhance it any.

 

This is a bit easier to read.

[Nef]

Oh wow, only 2-4 players? I only ever played with my father, but I guess the limits really do show. Same issues Space Engineers has. Can't have any more than 2-4 players max, or the game just won't work. Meanwhile on PC, "32 player PvP server now open!" lol

[SylenThunder]

13 minutes ago, Nef said:

Oh wow, only 2-4 players? I only ever played with my father, but I guess the limits really do show. Same issues Space Engineers has. Can't have any more than 2-4 players max, or the game just won't work. Meanwhile on PC, "32 player PvP server now open!" lol

Well to be fair, PC only supports 8 players, though is perfectly capable of managing 16 without too much issue if you have good hardware. 

Dedicated servers aren't stable past 20 unless you have exceptional hardware, and even then 30 is the hard limit. Anything past will end up with corrupted world data due to limitations in data read/write speeds on the hard disk.  That's why so many servers wipe on a regular basis.

[alden666]

After all that's been said here, my position now is that TFP should make the effort to bring over at least all the A16 features of the PC to the console -- contact Iron Galaxy (or another porter, but IG seems the easier way) and get things rolling again. As I said, what's infuriating is them not trying anymore to update the things that can still be updated. I mean just look at the things that A16 offers which are not present in the console versions. I think those updates would be enough to substantially placate the disappointment of console players. So mods, if you can, please tell TFP to make the effort to do this. If there are problems --monetary or otherwise -- in the way during the discussions, then tell us. Many would be willing to help if it is simply financial in nature.

[Ralco]

9 hours ago, SylenThunder said:

Well to be fair, PC only supports 8 players, though is perfectly capable of managing 16 without too much issue if you have good hardware. 

Dedicated servers aren't stable past 20 unless you have exceptional hardware, and even then 30 is the hard limit. Anything past will end up with corrupted world data due to limitations in data read/write speeds on the hard disk.  That's why so many servers wipe on a regular basis.

So oddly enough I just checked and it's different on xbox it now says 1.0.18.0, back before when I played it was A1.18. I'm unsure when that changed but this build number is very odd