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jeromeN7

A18's melee system, I dislike it.

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Here's the thing: if you get your distance right and throw everything you've got into timing the hit so the reticle's on your target when the weapon tip gets there, your hit lands.  You can't be sloppy with aim, timing or distance and expect to like what happens next. But if you get angry and scared and summon a stretch of A-game focus not even Warband's combat feels this good. Is it "realistic"? Oh, hayl no. Are the OP's criticisms accurate? Yup. But I think they're missing the point. Not that it's perfect, far from it. But that "everything's going to go to @%$*#! if you don't bring it, and it might go to @%$*#! anyway" vibe feels like a fight in a way not even Warband can match, and I think it's *because* of the nightmarish reach, and the teensy little headshot boxes, and all of it. The fight plays out in your head, you have to know what you're looking at, what's going on on-screen is almost as much hints as depiction. Tell the truth, it's why I play. TFP have been sniffing around this same territory from lots of different angles. Too many people plain hated the A17.0 take on it, but they were after the same thing: pay attention to how it really works, get mad, get scared, bring your A-game, or get et. 

 

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13 hours ago, quyxkh said:

Here's the thing: if you get your distance right and throw everything you've got into timing the hit so the reticle's on your target when the weapon tip gets there, your hit lands.  You can't be sloppy with aim, timing or distance and expect to like what happens next. But if you get angry and scared and summon a stretch of A-game focus not even Warband's combat feels this good. Is it "realistic"? Oh, hayl no. Are the OP's criticisms accurate? Yup. But I think they're missing the point. Not that it's perfect, far from it. But that "everything's going to go to @%$*#! if you don't bring it, and it might go to @%$*#! anyway" vibe feels like a fight in a way not even Warband can match, and I think it's *because* of the nightmarish reach, and the teensy little headshot boxes, and all of it. The fight plays out in your head, you have to know what you're looking at, what's going on on-screen is almost as much hints as depiction. Tell the truth, it's why I play. TFP have been sniffing around this same territory from lots of different angles. Too many people plain hated the A17.0 take on it, but they were after the same thing: pay attention to how it really works, get mad, get scared, bring your A-game, or get et. 

 

I agree. I think the problem some people have is that the melee weapons act like a ranged weapon when it comes to the crosshair. So if you swing a club and the crosshair is a centimeter to the right of the zombie's ear at best ou're going to get a 'glacing glow' which is like 10% the damage of a regular swing so pretty much nothing. But I play with exclusively sledgehammers, and doing power attacks 90% of the time at that, and find the hit box is pretty much perfect. I have to focus on every single swing and the only time it doesn't hit (or there is aoe damage) is when the crosshair isn't on the zombie.

 

It's not realistic but it does work and I too like this system. It's quite satisfying if you have accuracy. Although perhaps it should be tweaked for hand to hand damage because it's a little silly to expect crosshair aiming when you're so close. I do understand why some might not like it though. My suggestion, other than just avoiding melee or simply not playing the game if it really bugs you, is to use a weapon with reach and line up those swings.

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15 hours ago, quyxkh said:

[...]

 

 

2 hours ago, uselessjunkaccount said:

[...]

This isn't what the OP was talking about. Sure the hit detection is annoying, but you get used to it over time.
The problem is, how it feels. It feels less like a melee weapon and more like playing darts. It doesn't feel like you are swinging a massive hammer, but a super small needle, that only hits at a very specific point.
To quote RiP:
 

Quote

The point is that when you decide to use melee weapons, for whatever reason, it would be great if melee felt more like this and less like that.

 

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Posted (edited)

Basically saying "git gud" is missing the point. The simple fact you must not aim the head when a zombie is knocked down if you want to be sure that you do headshot him says it all really.

 

The "feel" isn't helped by what looks like 2010 animations to be fair. I hope they will give attack animations a lot of love in the future, since they seem to bring everything up their new standards (textures, icons, models, lightning, zombies...). After all it is a zombie killing game first and foremost, as such I think expecting decent melee animations should be pretty darn high in the priority list, in my opinion of course.

Edited by beHypE (see edit history)
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On 6/14/2020 at 4:36 AM, RestInPieces said:

The point is that when you decide to use melee weapons, for whatever reason, it would be great if melee felt more like this and less like that. Which would mean improving ragdolls, hit feedback animations (that are properly blended), hit detection and swing animations (atm only the machete's feel ok to me). They don't have to be of AAA quality, but they definitely can use some improvement all I'm saying.

I don't disagree.. love Dead Island btw.  I was just responding cause I think it was the OP that said there was no reason to use melee weapons. I see melee as a last resort backup for when I run out of ammo. Would I like to to be more like Dead Island? Hell yea! But otherwise if it's not it's ok. This game is about guns.

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7 hours ago, HungryZombie said:

I don't disagree.. love Dead Island btw.  I was just responding cause I think it was the OP that said there was no reason to use melee weapons. I see melee as a last resort backup for when I run out of ammo. Would I like to to be more like Dead Island? Hell yea! But otherwise if it's not it's ok. This game is about guns.

Melee in 7d2d was never a backup option (<A17) I can tell you that I was a juggernaut with the sledgehammer. I played hordenight with guns, but otherwise, I never used guns (since back then ammo was rare, not as abundant as it is today)

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On 6/10/2020 at 7:11 AM, jeromeN7 said:

I hope A19 will have better melee combat. From what I've seen I'm the only person who thinks melee is half broken in A18. I recently noticed how I slowly quit playing after A18 came out and I have over 1100 hours played. Melee in A18 seems to be one of the biggest culprits. More often then not I feel like I should have hit a target but didn't.

 

What I think is wrong with melee:

-The weapons have terrible hit detection, and stop mid swing once they reach the center of the screen.

-The area effect on melee weapons is completely inaccurate and often hurts your friends, it happens often to me and my friend.

-With some melee weapons, the center of the screen gets obstructed by the weapon itself during the swing, making it harder adjust aim mid animation to hit the target.

 

What I think could make it better:

-It shouldn't be so easy to hit friends with area effect damage.

-Melee weapons should always hit in the center of the screen and even better match the surface area of the weapon being used.

-Without proper procedural animations, I think it was better when the weapons swing arch just continued on, for me the melee animations felt more natural in A17.

-If possible the center of the screen should rarely be obstructed by the melee weapon during the swing animation, or never completely obstruct it, until the target is hit.

-It would be a nice feature if there was procedural animation hit detection. If you hit a target the weapon stops, if you miss it doesn't, etc.

 

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I couldn't hit anything with a wood club when I started my last playthrough because it had been over a year since I played 7Days and I forgot how to adjust for the wonkiness. And even once I adjusted, there are still many times when I hit allies when I shouldn't, and times when the game decides hitboxes don't exist and nothing connects at all. Melee combat in this game feels more like System Shock 2 jank than the natural feeling you get in Dead Island or Left 4 Dead 2 when swinging weapons and connecting with enemies.

I know they're updating "unfair" things like buried treasure and fetch satchels being hard to find. But some of the most unfair moments in the game have been swinging point blank at enemies while nothing happens.

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IMO anything on your weapons swing arc should take noticable damage, with ones colliding directly with the weapon on the swing path taking most. The grazing hits was a good idea, but the damage it does is so damned low it might as well not even exist at all. The oher problem is hit detecting for melee weapons uses the same raycast system guns do for the most part, which means if the target is not under the crosshair pretty much right as you bass the crosshair with the swing, it misses. This i s annoying because of the stupid bobblehead animations zombies have for no apparent frigging reason.

 

I love the concept of 7dtd I just wish it was done better, as there is many improvements that should be done.

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I firmly agree that improvements in the combat system is needed. My feeling is the hitboxes and attack animations line up poorly, espically while the zombie is ragdolling. Up to A18 I used to love the box/xbow for most of the normal combat but getting repeated headshots in feels nearly impossible so I end up switching to body blows which bothers my 'zombies hunters pride'. :) I like the headshot kills. I do like the spear but again headshots are problematic and I end up waiting for the zombie to recover from the first hit to try and hit him again.

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