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Food: Survival arcade vs Survival sim

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Posted (edited)
On 5/16/2020 at 7:03 AM, Aldranon said:

Back to TFP, for their first game (I hope its just their first) it appears they want to appeal to as large a base as possible, this excludes making the game too complex, they're just trying to find the "Goldilocks zone".

 

Not on topic i know, but why do they cut down on the players ability to build so hard then? If you look everywhere else except this forum, you will see people love to build and will constantly rant why you can´t craft every block that is in the game. I know Joel wants the game to look worn out. Nothing stops him from doing that, but why can´t we have nice things to build? Doesn´t change the original look of the game, it´s not that people are going to rebuild the whole map. And tbh why the heck does he care how people want their bases and homes to look like?

 

You can´t tell people who don´t know this game that they can build what ever they want. Huge chance they miss out on here imo.

Edited by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Not on topic i know, but why do they cut down on the players ability to build so hard then? If you look everywhere else except this forum, you will see people love to build and will constantly rant why you can´t craft every block that is in the game. I know Joel wants the game to look worn out. Nothing stops him from doing that, but why can´t we have nice things to build? Doesn´t change the original look of the game, it´s not that people are going to rebuild the whole map. And tbh why the heck does he care how people want their bases and homes to look like?

 

You can´t tell people who don´t know this game that they can build what ever they want. Huge chance they miss out on here imo.

That's why there is a creative mode menu where you have access to 99% of the games blocks.

 

This is probably done for several reasons.  (maintain survival elements, reduce craft menu clutter,  game performance, etc.)

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

If you can handle the current crafting menu, you can handle it with creative blocks also.

 

What survival elements? The survival part is so easy already. Just do buried supplies quests at the start, buy canned food at the vending machine and you are done with the survival part.

 

And how would more blocks hurt the gaming performance? That makes no sense. These blocks would hurt gameperformance already as they are in the POI´s we have in the game. We have a storage full of creative menu blocks because we don´t won´t CM on all the time. I don´t see any negative impact on the performance.

 

I don´t want to be forced to use creative mode to have nice things also. I want to actually get the ressources and crafting for it needed whjle trying to survive vs the Z´s.

 

People wanna do this in MP also. There aren´t many servers, if any at all, with CM on.

 

It would already help a lot if we could have more colours. Can´t be that hard and doesn´t harm the game in any way.

Edited by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

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20 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

If you can handle the current crafting menu, you can handle it with creative blocks also.

 

What survival elements? The survival part is so easy already. Just do buried supplies quests at the start, buy canned food at the vending machine and you are done with the survival part.

 

And how would more blocks hurt the gaming performance? That makes no sense. These blocks would hurt gameperformance already as they are in the POI´s we have in the game. We have a storage full of creative menu blocks because we don´t won´t CM on all the time. I don´t see any negative impact on the performance.

 

I don´t want to be forced to use creative mode to have nice things also. I want to actually get the ressources and crafting for it needed.

People wanna do this in MP also. There aren´t many servers, if any at all, with CM on.

MM hinted at a performance reason:

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/16394-alpha-19-dev-diary/?do=findComment&comment=360510

 

Obviously this is only a reason not to include things like microwave ovens, intricate lamps etc, not for simple wall textures.

 

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Lamps? But the superbright lanterns and spotlights don´t hurt perfomance? Well i don´t understand anything of programming but that seems a bit odd. I really hope the lightning gets an overhaul sometimes. It´s either dimm or superbright right now unless you play around with hiding the lightsource behind blocks. Wich is an annoying task with only mediocre results tbh. 

 

I have about 50 bookshelves in my last villa, in one corner of a 3 story house. No FPS drops.

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2 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Lamps? But the superbright lanterns and spotlights don´t hurt perfomance? Well i don´t understand anything of programming but that seems a bit odd. I really hope the lightning gets an overhaul sometimes. It´s either dimm or superbright right now unless you play around with hiding the lightsource behind blocks. Wich is an annoying task with only mediocre results tbh. 

 

I have about 50 bookshelves in my last villa, in one corner of a 3 story house. No FPS drops.

Light definitely tanks FPS. I once put about 50 torches on a slope on a rather low-end PC. Looking at the lights removed 20 FPS (if I remember correctly). But light is a neccessity in this game, much like zombies. Draw-call-expensive furniture is not.

 

That post by madmole was about the new bookshelves in A19. Look at the pictures MM recently posted on twitter, you'll know what I mean.

 

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Why is a small lantern brighter than a studio light then? Propably due to early access and them working on it at later point in time. I hope. And if bandits don´t radically change the endgame, draw-call-expensive furniture is the only thing left in endgame....

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On 5/28/2020 at 2:02 AM, Roland said:

Sorry if it grinds your gears but it is absolutely true that experienced players have a different view than new players and developing the game with only experienced players in mind is a bad idea. Creating DLCs after launch with experienced players in mind in order to extend the game and add new more complex content is a good idea. Developing the base game bad idea.

On 5/28/2020 at 2:02 AM, Roland said:

 

But you didn't start with Tekkit. You graduated to it after playing the base game for x number of hours. The developers are working on the base game. Late game complexity for experienced players are for after launch DLCs for the purpose of extending the life of the game. The devs will do some of this (for 2 years after gold they have said) and modders will also contribute to this. The fact that what you care about most is lategame is proof that TFP must not let you distract them from what they are doing right now which is: Getting the base game polished and ready for release. They have stated a number of times that they are concerned with getting the first 30 hours of gameplay solid for release. Then they can add and extend with more complexity.

 

Meh...7 Days is the same. You don't start with all five workstations and all the perks and crafting recipes for all the weapons. You gain those a little at a time as you play. At first all you have to worry about is crafting and using a fireplace. That's it. The forge comes next and so on. Hooking up electrical systems and traps and security cameras and battery banks or solar panels comes much later. None of that complexity is thrown at the player on day 1 but slowly over time as they progress.

 

Oi Vey....

Any progression system does that. The one we have now accomplishes it very well. Yes, you don't prefer the perk purchasing system compared to the LBD system and that's fine but to say LBD moves a player from being basic to complex all on its own is like advertising that Apples are gluten free....

 

Buying perks one by one ALSO moves a character from basic to complex on its own.

 

 

See? You are not late to this conversation after all, you are just much too early. The developers are focused on getting their base game finished and you are longing for the DLCs that will come post launch. As far as polish and refinement go I think this game is just barely approaching "My Time in Portia" when it was first released to early access. Obviously a ton of work went into Portia behind closed doors. They didn't share the early development of that game like TFP has been sharing the early development of this game. And then there's your point about Tekkit for Minecraft.  That added complexity you are craving comes from a mod and not the base game which is simpler. This is the correct model. The developers create a platform that is approachable and simple and modders build off of that to offer complexity and new play options.

 

Btw...I looked up Tekkit and.... $149/month? What the hell is that about?  

 

If it was like more story or something... sure.
But I am talking about core systems. Things that should interact with each other. Again portia, since you seem to know it:
Mining influences-> crafting which influences contracts which give relationship, money and workshop ranking.
but also -> data discs and relics which give you church "tech" and advanced tech like better forges.
So I can influence money, relationships, workshopranking, technology, farming, relics and an overall growth of your land.
One thing is interconnected to all those things.
I could give other examples how doing dungeons does the similar, but can also be done via contract of your own...

It is interconnected.
Lets compare it with the food system in A18.
Better farm gives better food, less cahnce for poisoning, meaning you need to eat less...
But it doesnt connect to the other gameplay elements. Its a minigame within the game with no real connection.
It doesnt keep zombies away/lure them to you, you do not gain health, you don't have an advantage while looting or shopping.
It is a loop that doesnt interact with the other systems.

Loads of repeating evidence incoming, just skip for the base argument.


In previous alphas (I know some is coming back, just as an example) food that you kept on you lured zombies to you. Good food gave you more health and stamina, meaning easier fights and more stamina to farm and run longer distances. That was somewhat connected.

And this is what I meant by LBD. The xp system is not connected to the rest of the game.
Yes you get +1 fortitude, you have better stamina and health... but why? Because you farmed xp.
You get stronger, why? Xp farm.
Better prices, loot, farm, cooking? All because of xp.

So you say "but you can earn xp by doing everything, so it is interconnect!"
But it is not worth the same.
If I mine in MtiP I do it, because I need the ressources. The rest are sideproducts.
If I kill Z's in 7d2d I do it for xp. If I do a quest, I do it for the loot and the xp.
Since the only way to effectively improve certain things, XP is the most valuable thing out there and farming it (on harder difficulties) is nearly mandated to survive.

Yes you get better by looting. Maybe you even get better by building a better base... But what is interconnected about all these systems?
Mining gives building mats and XP. With the building mats... I can only build stuff that I learned... with xp (and to say something positive, some recipes in A18. Not all is bad :D)

This kind of interconnectivity is the complexity we want.
If we mine, we do attract zombies, which means we need medicine and a weapon on our mining run.
THAT is a connection between systems. And is something that was reduced by TFPs a lot.


and another rant... I feel like that is all I do... just read what RestinPieces is saying. He can put it into words much more eloquently than I can :)



Also... not to hate on TFPs. But the team of MtiP got two mails from me... they responded to BOTH in detail AND implemented my suggestions.
Obviously, I wasn't the only one saying it, but they took advice to heart and tried to make the best game they could.

It was the reason I descided to actually buy the game. (demo and acc sharing before)
With TFPs, I have only see them accept feedback twice. And that was firezombie and bearmodel.
I'm not saying thats the only two times. But often it feels more like a "we know better and we will make it" rather than "we understand your concern and am working on a solution, but it might take a while so please be patient.
A17 wasn't easy for anyone. Fans pressured to get a new release, they wanted to release it for the wintersales and so much negative feedback can change your patience and character. But it was the time I stopped... loving the game, because the devs do not acknowledge long time players input.
As if we didn't know that new players have a different view. As if we are just sheep making stupid noises and only the farmer knows whats good for them.



 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

If it was like more story or something... sure.
But I am talking about core systems. Things that should interact with each other. Again portia, since you seem to know it:
Mining influences-> crafting which influences contracts which give relationship, money and workshop ranking.
but also -> data discs and relics which give you church "tech" and advanced tech like better forges.
So I can influence money, relationships, workshopranking, technology, farming, relics and an overall growth of your land.
One thing is interconnected to all those things.
I could give other examples how doing dungeons does the similar, but can also be done via contract of your own...

It is interconnected.
Lets compare it with the food system in A18.
Better farm gives better food, less cahnce for poisoning, meaning you need to eat less...
But it doesnt connect to the other gameplay elements. Its a minigame within the game with no real connection.
It doesnt keep zombies away/lure them to you, you do not gain health, you don't have an advantage while looting or shopping.
It is a loop that doesnt interact with the other systems.

Loads of repeating evidence incoming, just skip for the base argument.

  Reveal hidden contents


In previous alphas (I know some is coming back, just as an example) food that you kept on you lured zombies to you. Good food gave you more health and stamina, meaning easier fights and more stamina to farm and run longer distances. That was somewhat connected.

And this is what I meant by LBD. The xp system is not connected to the rest of the game.
Yes you get +1 fortitude, you have better stamina and health... but why? Because you farmed xp.
You get stronger, why? Xp farm.
Better prices, loot, farm, cooking? All because of xp.

So you say "but you can earn xp by doing everything, so it is interconnect!"
But it is not worth the same.
If I mine in MtiP I do it, because I need the ressources. The rest are sideproducts.
If I kill Z's in 7d2d I do it for xp. If I do a quest, I do it for the loot and the xp.
Since the only way to effectively improve certain things, XP is the most valuable thing out there and farming it (on harder difficulties) is nearly mandated to survive.

Yes you get better by looting. Maybe you even get better by building a better base... But what is interconnected about all these systems?
Mining gives building mats and XP. With the building mats... I can only build stuff that I learned... with xp (and to say something positive, some recipes in A18. Not all is bad :D)

This kind of interconnectivity is the complexity we want.
If we mine, we do attract zombies, which means we need medicine and a weapon on our mining run.
THAT is a connection between systems. And is something that was reduced by TFPs a lot.

 


and another rant... I feel like that is all I do... just read what RestinPieces is saying. He can put it into words much more eloquently than I can :)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 


Also... not to hate on TFPs. But the team of MtiP got two mails from me... they responded to BOTH in detail AND implemented my suggestions.
Obviously, I wasn't the only one saying it, but they took advice to heart and tried to make the best game they could.

It was the reason I descided to actually buy the game. (demo and acc sharing before)
With TFPs, I have only see them accept feedback twice. And that was firezombie and bearmodel.
I'm not saying thats the only two times. But often it feels more like a "we know better and we will make it" rather than "we understand your concern and am working on a solution, but it might take a while so please be patient.
A17 wasn't easy for anyone. Fans pressured to get a new release, they wanted to release it for the wintersales and so much negative feedback can change your patience and character. But it was the time I stopped... loving the game, because the devs do not acknowledge long time players input.
As if we didn't know that new players have a different view. As if we are just sheep making stupid noises and only the farmer knows whats good for them.
 

 

 


 

Nice example with the food that lures zombies to you BUT that has absolutely nothing to do with LBD.

 

Lets talks mining in A18/A19. Doing mining in a perk system literally means you put points into mining perks. This is what you don't like and want mining itself to do it, hence LBD. But all those interconnections exist or not independant of the LBD-or-perk system .

For example mining perks give you the ability to build better tools (see your point above about "and advanced tech"). There would be no problem also giving the ability to build a better forge at a higher mining perk. Similar "connections" to other fields of endeavour could be added if it made sense and such systems as guilds/groups and interconnected tech trees existed at all.

 

You yourself derailed your argument by assuming this has much to do with LBD.

 

Specifically a game like portia has a different focus (it is a life simulation) and resources that had to be put into zombies, a voxel-world, procedural world generation, were put into a more complex economy and society system. In A18 we still don't have the Duke and White River in the game, how are they supposed to add reputation in a meaningful way for example?

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Lets compare it with the food system in A18.
Better farm gives better food, less cahnce for poisoning, meaning you need to eat less...
But it doesnt connect to the other gameplay elements. Its a minigame within the game with no real connection.
It doesnt keep zombies away/lure them to you, you do not gain health, you don't have an advantage while looting or shopping.

Grandpa's Moonshine - massive bonuses to combat

Grandpa's Awesome Sauce - 20% boost to bartering

Grandpa's Lernin' Elixir - 20% EXP gain

Pumpkin Cheesecake - 5% boost to bartering

Beer - brawling damage/stun resist

Blackstrap Coffee - stamina regen

Steroids - strength/carrying capacity

Recog - +400% ranged damage

Fort bites - heat/cold/health/armor boost

 

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2 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Grandpa's Moonshine - massive bonuses to combat

Grandpa's Awesome Sauce - 20% boost to bartering

Grandpa's Lernin' Elixir - 20% EXP gain

Pumpkin Cheesecake - 5% boost to bartering

Beer - brawling damage/stun resist

Blackstrap Coffee - stamina regen

Steroids - strength/carrying capacity

Recog - +400% ranged damage

Fort bites - heat/cold/health/armor boost

 

I first wanted to list these examples too, but I assumed V is after permanent advancements aka progression. Writing this it occured to me that the ability to mass-produce some of these drugs IS a progression, very much in line with progression probably happening in Portia. So you earned a Thanks from me.

 

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"This" is all a backdoor entry into talking about LBD....again. It is pointless because LBD is gone and the developers have definitively stated that the current system is the system that the game will release using. Even the current make-up of the system is set at this point. They will not be reconfiguring perks into new or non attribute categories, they will not be getting rid of the attributes. The debate is over and window for trying to convince them has closed. It is time to either adapt and live with it and keep playing or to cherish your memories of the time you had with the game for the price you paid, go give your negative review on Steam, and find your next obsession.

 

As for interconnectedness there is plenty of that. Eating better foods gives me more energy and time to do other things without having to stop and eat and/or stop and cook and /or stop and hunt/scavenge/farm for more food. Living off of canned food you will be spending a lot of time resupplying your stock. Living off of stew you will be freed up to do other activities needing to replenish yourself much less often. That means you will be able to build more, mine more, pepare more. Temporary benefits are better than permanent benefits when it comes to food and drink because when the benefit is permanent it simply gives players the incentive to spam that food in order to reach the top tier of the benefit progression as soon as possible. If the benefits are on a timer then it removes that incentive. There is no ladder to climb via stuffing your face. You eat because you want to either to assuage your hunger or for the temporary bonus when you need it.

 

The old wellness system was a joke. People would spam stew while sitting naked in the snow biome to jack their wellness higher in the most artificial way imaginable. It had the very same weaknesses that LBD in general carried. As soon as there is a ladder to climb and there is a repeatable action you can do to climb that ladder faster people will do it and suddenly that becomes the entire purpose of doing that action--reaching the top of the ladder AND being able to post online that you did it by day sooner-than-everyone-else. 

 

Now your max health and max stamina simply follow your progression as you level up. It isn't ideal because you can still affect how quickly or slowly that happens so it is still gamey-- but not nearly as gamey as the old wellness system. It is why I do prefer progression to be based on time survived rather than linked to specific actions taken. But I'm also perfectly happy letting that be an alternative gameplay option via modding rather than going on a campaign to have it be the norm for the default game. I actually enjoy playing both ways, tbh.

 

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Funny fact: the shortcut for the animation below is :LBD:

 

:deadhorse:

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THE HORSE LIVES!- LBD is Back Baby! -

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Spider said:

 

THE HORSE LIVES!- LBD is Back Baby! -

Yes! In exactly the manner it should be back. Thank you!!

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Posted (edited)

honestly never wanted to talk about LBD. It had more potential, but they had a different path in mind, so I don't want to argue anymore.
But it is just one of many examples, where the execution was somewhat flawed and TFPs remove/rework the whole thing instead of tweaking it. Often with the argument of "simplifying" the game.
They seem to want to do a game so simple that an ape can grasp it... but that makes it shallow.

I am not saying A18 is bad. It is a great step in the right direction and I'm sure they will improve in further alphas.
But their argumentation is flawed. That is all that I wanted to show. Complexity doesnt mean make it confusing.
Difficulty doesnt mean make it impossible on day 1.
You all had good examples on how they already do it right (seemingly by accident, when I listen to how MM phrases things). All the progression in crafting and different systems come into play over time... so why is it so hard to see that implementing a long term goal for players is needed and even new players would benefit from it.

I am not a hater. A17 was absolute poop, but A18 was playable again. BUT I do have to say that from ~A12 improvements were... nice to have... but did any of that add to the longevity of a playthrough?
No. Because they want ppl to start new games over and over. Thats why you need 99.999.999.999 (or more) xp to lvl 300.
Thats why they don't implement lategame stuff. But that is not how most ppl play open world sandbox survival games.
Except for 7d2d every new alpha... I can't remember replaying a sandbox game... (except for with friends) because it feels bad to lose all your progress.
Yes you might like it. And yes I can't speak for every person out there. But logicially... a family dad who only has 12 hours a week (at most) to play doesnt want to redo all the farming after 60 hours because he has done it all. He will change to one of the million other games.
They need to start and focus on content. Not on reworking graphics for the x-teenth time. Do that once the game is finished.
Give ppl content. Give them more to do. Give them long term goals except to build a selfdefending base.
The duke and difficulty regions are a start... but except for clearing a T5-6 tower... there is nothing to do once you have the best gear an weapons and the perfect base (~30-50 hours)

 

2 hours ago, Boidster said:

Grandpa's Moonshine - massive bonuses to combat

Grandpa's Awesome Sauce - 20% boost to bartering

Grandpa's Lernin' Elixir - 20% EXP gain

Pumpkin Cheesecake - 5% boost to bartering

Beer - brawling damage/stun resist

Blackstrap Coffee - stamina regen

Steroids - strength/carrying capacity

Recog - +400% ranged damage

Fort bites - heat/cold/health/armor boost

[/quote]

 

 

 

 

 





 

 

 

Quote

 

 


Which of these actually give you food tho?
You don't eat them for the food. You make specific alchemy. Which is nice, and actually a good example. But food is the one I was talking about and except for the cheesecake maybe (dunno) none of them are foods, they are alchemy.


PS: this new forum is nice and all... but quotes are a pain in the butt to handle! Dragging doesnt work, I can't close the quote by myself... and I can't write in front or in behind of it.

Edited by Viktoriusiii (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Which of these actually give you food tho?
You don't eat them for the food. You make specific alchemy. Which is nice, and actually a good example. But food is the one I was talking about and except for the cheesecake maybe (dunno) none of them are foods, they are alchemy.

Well, okay I guess, but they're made in exactly the same way, using exactly the same ingredients (i.e. crops) so...? A distinction without a difference? In any case I know you have a larger point to make so I don't mean to bog you down specifically with those items. Just a counter to the idea that advanced farming only means eating less often and doesn't produce advanced effects.

 

21 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

PS: this new forum is nice and all... but quotes are a pain in the butt to handle! Dragging doesnt work, I can't close the quote by myself... and I can't write in front or in behind of it.

Quotes can be dragged around and deleted (at least in Firefox on Windows). If you hover over the quote box you will see a little round handle appear in the top-left corner. Grab that to move the quote box where you want. Click it and then hit Delete to just remove the quote box. To write behind a quote which is at the top of your post, add a line below it and then drag the quote below that.

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)

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Also if you highlight someone's text you get a tooltip that asks if you want to quote it. So you can easily pick out sections and quote and respond.

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13 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

honestly never wanted to talk about LBD. It had more potential, but they had a different path in mind, so I don't want to argue anymore.
But it is just one of many examples, where the execution was somewhat flawed and TFPs remove/rework the whole thing instead of tweaking it. Often with the argument of "simplifying" the game.
They seem to want to do a game so simple that an ape can grasp it... but that makes it shallow.

I am not saying A18 is bad. It is a great step in the right direction and I'm sure they will improve in further alphas.
But their argumentation is flawed. That is all that I wanted to show. Complexity doesnt mean make it confusing.
Difficulty doesnt mean make it impossible on day 1.
You all had good examples on how they already do it right (seemingly by accident, when I listen to how MM phrases things). All the progression in crafting and different systems come into play over time... so why is it so hard to see that implementing a long term goal for players is needed and even new players would benefit from it.

I am not a hater. A17 was absolute poop, but A18 was playable again. BUT I do have to say that from ~A12 improvements were... nice to have... but did any of that add to the longevity of a playthrough?
No. Because they want ppl to start new games over and over. Thats why you need 99.999.999.999 (or more) xp to lvl 300.
Thats why they don't implement lategame stuff. But that is not how most ppl play open world sandbox survival games.
Except for 7d2d every new alpha... I can't remember replaying a sandbox game... (except for with friends) because it feels bad to lose all your progress.
Yes you might like it. And yes I can't speak for every person out there. But logicially... a family dad who only has 12 hours a week (at most) to play doesnt want to redo all the farming after 60 hours because he has done it all. He will change to one of the million other games.
They need to start and focus on content. Not on reworking graphics for the x-teenth time. Do that once the game is finished.
Give ppl content. Give them more to do. Give them long term goals except to build a selfdefending base.
The duke and difficulty regions are a start... but except for clearing a T5-6 tower... there is nothing to do once you have the best gear an weapons and the perfect base (~30-50 hours)

 

 

Start to focus on content? What else are they doing? They have graphics artists doing the graphics (and they can't do anything else) and they have designers and programmers adding new stuff like vehicles, books, new weapons, candy and food. The switch from building the underlying systems to filling the game with content happened between A17 and A18.

 

You are right that there is a lack of stuff for people to do who have the best gear and the perfect base. Apart from bandits I can think of only one way to effectively extend the game: A way to increase the damage of any weapon bit by bit, a long grind to find such upgrades and a series of boss-zombies with strongly increasing HPs. 

 

What other open world sandbox survival SINGLE PLAYER/CO-OP game do you know and how long have you played a single session in it?

 

 

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Posted (edited)

For example I highlighted this section and then clicked on the quote tooltip....

 

9 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Except for 7d2d every new alpha... I can't remember replaying a sandbox game... (except for with friends) because it feels bad to lose all your progress.
Yes you might like it. And yes I can't speak for every person out there. But logicially... a family dad who only has 12 hours a week (at most) to play doesnt want to redo all the farming after 60 hours because he has done it all. He will change to one of the million other games.
They need to start and focus on content. Not on reworking graphics for the x-teenth time. Do that once the game is finished.

Family dad who has only 12 hours a week to play probably hasn't played the game yet. The only people who are needing new content are us following the game for years in early access development. The game has plenty of content for the average gamer who hasn't experienced any of the content yet. Ask any Xbox player whether they think the PC version doesn't have much content and I think you'll see a new perspective.

 

They are trying to release this game as a polished and approachable product for all of the players out there who will experience it for the first time as a new game. So with that in mind they are doing exactly what they need to do. After the game is finished as a high quality work, THEN they can please people like us who are wanting an extension to the current game.

 

Nobody who is upset by restarting should be playing an early access title anyway. Sometimes I really think you forget that this game isn't made yet. You jumped in during development and they have a goal for what the game will be upon release and a goals for further content updates post release. You are coming at this too early.

 

If they release a DLC in 2022 that just updates the graphics and rearranges the perks instead of adding more stuff to do and craft and fight then I will stand with you against them. But for now they just need to fix water, get bandits added, and polish things up and release.

Edited by Roland (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, meganoth said:

You are right that there is a lack of stuff for people to do who have the best gear and the perfect base. Apart from bandits I can think of only one way to effectively extend the game: A way to increase the damage of any weapon bit by bit, a long grind to find such upgrades and a series of boss-zombies with strongly increasing HPs. 

 

Actually what they could do that would ironically satisfy and please a lot of people is add a single boss and once he is dead roll the credits and THEN let the player play on forever doing whatever. That is all people really want. A final boss and a credit roll. Nobody would complain then that they would just be continuing on without end just like they do now. Really though it's mostly just the credit roll. Stick a credit roll after the 49th day horde night and people will be fist pumping that they hit endgame and then be super pleased that they get to keep playing on if they want to.

 

Huh....I might suggest to the devs adding a credit roll after one of the horde nights just to see the psycological effect.  I bet a bunch of people will write in thanking them for finally putting in an endgame... ;)

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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5 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Actually what they could do that would ironically satisfy and please a lot of people is add a single boss and once he is dead roll the credits and THEN let the player play on forever doing whatever. That is all people really want. A final boss and a credit roll. Nobody would complain then that they would just be continuing on without end just like they do now. Really though it's mostly just the credit roll. Stick a credit roll after the 49th day horde night and people will be fist pumping that they hit endgame and then be super pleased that they get to keep playing on if they want to.

 

Huh....I might suggest to the devs adding a credit roll after one of the horde nights just to see the psycological effect.  I bet a bunch of people will write in thanking them for finally putting in an endgame... ;)

Maybe... but it doesn't change much. Minecraft didn't add the ender dragon for ppl to have a final credit thing.
Minecraft already had stuff to do forever. Want a diamond T5 enchanted gear? add 20 hours. Want all different potions? Another 10 hours. Want to have an awesome looking base? Build another 15 hours (yeah you can do it in 7d2d too. but the focus in 7d2d isn't creativity... at least not as much). And then there is the wither, then there is electricity and different blocks that look awesome an... and... and...

There is always stuff to do in minecraft. In 7d2d once you hit a plateau... it isn't as satisfying as in minecraft to keep going. Probably because the base idea is different... but I'm not sure.
But I do not think that adding an ending scroll will fix anything. It might divert away from the problems... but it won't be satisfying, since the underlying mechanics are still as basic.

And I never said that they didn't add stuff in every alpha. And I know its not fair to compare these games, but it feels same-ish.
Look at how basic and yet convoluted electricity is. You can't build a grid, you can't interconnect it and it needs to follow a very specific line, or it won't work.
Why can't I put a solar panel and a generator on one grid? Why not 2 Generators... You know how confusing the flowthrough mechanic is to get electric doors to work?

I built small clocks in minecraft without tutorial, jsut by logic and I didnt get how to do it without looking it up

:D

If you compare that with even the most basic electricity in a game like minecraft...



The vehicles are nice and one of the best parts of A17&18.
And yes the graphics have improved, but at what cost? (how many months was it pushed back?4?)
Is that really worth 3 years of development?

NPC settlements, bandits bossraids/dungeons and stuff like that could have been added... but all of that was pushed back since ~A13


I'm not saying they are lazy. Not at all. I am saying that they have reworked stuff like 10 times and didn't focus on implementing new stuff.
Yes it is their game. And yes they want to make the best game and they need solid basics... but after 7+ years... it would be nice if they could settle for stuff and give long time players something to do.

I was never a fan of "omg how long in development" but... slowly but surely I come to see it the same way... this isn't a PvP game that needs constant changes. It is mostly a single player game (sadly). It "needs" to finish and get more features someday... at least in my personal opinion.

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Posted (edited)

If one only goes by active players, A18 would be the most successful Alpha by a good margin.

The question is: What can be done to get the numbers higher?

 

"Letting the glove fit the hand".

As people have different views of what fun is, the logical answer is to make the game as flexible as possible. 

-Take "Oxygen not included" for example.  They have many different world types with pros, cons and world seeds to each one.

-Take "Factorio" with more options than any game I know.  TFP are using some of that flexibility and that might be why the numbers of active players are better than before.

 

Edited by Aldranon (see edit history)
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25 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

But I do not think that adding an ending scroll will fix anything. It might divert away from the problems... but it won't be satisfying, since the underlying mechanics are still as basic.

I agree with VIII that it won't satisfy the players he is talking about. This would satisfy some people who don't like sandboxes because they don't get told what to do. Exactly the opposite to the people who want sandbox and endless play.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

And yes the graphics have improved, but at what cost? (how many months was it pushed back?4?)
Is that really worth 3 years of development?

NPC settlements, bandits bossraids/dungeons and stuff like that could have been added... but all of that was pushed back since ~A13


I'm not saying they are lazy.

 

Their game, their choice where the game should eventually be. Their lack of experience to do some unneccessary detours. Other teams (even experienced ones) surely do similar mistakes where you could point to and say they wasted time. But you can't because they have at least early development if not the complete development behind closed doors (There is a recent fallout game where they just kept the detours and published, it seems 😀)

 

There is no use in analyzing some old features where they went the wrong way and wasted time OR often went a way you don't like. How about staying in the here and now, you won't get anywhere by making lists of things they should have done differently. What does it matter if they put more value in graphics and made that effort? Lost of people on the forum seem to be happy about the improved graphics. You can speculate that YOUR way would have been better but you can't prove it and you can't know it.

 

A17 was the stage where typical EA games enter early access and let the players in to fine-tune their game. That is the stage where you mostly see stuff added. And here we are where stuff is added, even for end-game. T3 weapons are for end-game, stretching the early phase is in a way for end-game, bandits is a big one for end-game which is also the basis for other end-game stuff like faction-based quests.

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Minecraft already had stuff to do forever. Want a diamond T5 enchanted gear? add 20 hours. Want all different potions? Another 10 hours. Want to have an awesome looking base?

 

I don't play minecraft, but isn't such stuff often added in/dependant on mods? I expect some mods to invest their energy into the end-game once 7D2D is finally ... final. For me personally 20 potions to collect sounds like stuff I would happily ignore. Diamond T5 enchanted gear yes if some zombie danger needs it. If it is just about completophobia or bragging rights, don't count me in. This is probably not what TFP is going after either and complaining won't fix their goals. Ergo wait for mods or look where their goals coincide with your goals. In this vein, whenever you mention LBD you lost their ear as well as posted a red flag to lots of people who are past the stage of "once upon a time in the ardennes".

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

It "needs" to finish and get more features someday... at least in my personal opinion.

I am in complete agreement. This is what I have been saying. What they have right now without any new content is a fantastic and full game that will give anyone who has never played it before potentially 100s of hours of entertainment. But the current content isn't ready for release. It needs to be fixed, polished, and optimized so that anyone who meets the spec requirements will have a fun experience and not get frustrated by stutters, glitches, and cruddy presentation. That is the "needs to finish" part.

 

Once the game goes gold and they continue to update it with DLCs, those should extend the game for everyone who has already played out what is currently in there: new blocks to build with, new quests to achieve, new perks, new enemies, new story, etc. That is the "get more features someday" part. 

 

If they add more content to keep all of us who have already played through the game several times happy right now and then in another 6 months do that again because by then we will have devoured all the new content from this time, they will never finish what they have to standard they want for gold release. Calling for extending the end game with additional content right now is premature. They have to get it done.

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

I agree with VIII that it won't satisfy the players he is talking about. This would satisfy some people who don't like sandboxes because they don't get told what to do. Exactly the opposite to the people who want sandbox and endless play.

heh...nothing will satisfy those players except for all new content that extends gameplay more. But how long will they be satisfied with that before they are again dissatisfied and start demanding more again? Some of those players devour new content within hours or days of releasing it because of how they play games. The credit roll was mostly a joke but really this game already has sandbox endless play as long as you are into collecting every book, building new structures, renovating existing POI's, and maxing out your character. And then there is the best option (IMO) which is to start over fresh and make different choices for some alternative challenges. Adding a credit roll wouldn't change any of that. It would just signify to the player from the developers, "You've basically won and now you can do whatever you want".

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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