A18, or How I Didn't Learn to Stop Worrying and Embrace the Kludge

[alphaniner]

When I learned about specific item parts being introduced in A18, I hoped that was a sign the game would be moving away from kludges like glue and duct tape.

 

Instead, it seems like item crafting and maintenance in A18 revolves around kludges even more, and their function as 'barriers' (at least in early game) has increased: 1) the iron club requiring forged iron instead of scrap, 2) simple items like cloth and leather armor, and the iron club again, requiring repair kits rather than more common raw mats for repair.

 

I'm able to mod so I can de-kludgify as I play, but I hope this isn't an indication of the future direction of the game.

[Theodryck]

I don't know how much this bothers me. I guess I'm okay with a fair bit of kludge since the game, although more polished than a great many so-called "AAA" titles, is still very much in alpha. So the devs are still doing a fair amount of "feeling things out" as it were. It may change in future releases, or if night get worse. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Roland]

Without kludge there is no space between different tiers. If it just takes scrap iron and wood to make the iron club then it can be made on day one and the wood club is obsolete before it ever had a chance to be played with during the game. I think that if you are the type of person who would rather just skip past the primitive tier of gear and get right to tier2 on day 1 then that definitely should be something that you mod in. Personally, I am fine with using the wood club for a few days until I can forge/acquire some forged iron and duct tape. It means that wooden club I had to craft in the tutorial quest isn't completely wasted and useless.

 

Same with the repair kits. If you find or were able to scrape together enough mats to make an iron club but you can't yet make lots of repair kits, then once your iron club breaks you'll have to use the wood club until you can get some repair kits together. Eventually you'll have a stack of repair kits and then the wood club really will be obsolete and useless as a game item. I'm just glad the kludge prevents that event from occurring by 12 noon on Day 1.

[alphaniner]

Without kludge there is no space between different tiers.If it just takes scrap iron and wood to make the iron club then it can be made on day one and the wood club is obsolete before it ever had a chance to be played with during the game.

 

In my experience from A17, the wood club remains valuable because you can almost always find wood if your iron club breaks and you didn't have any scrap on you. But more to the point, with kludge and RNG I'm on day 6 and am still stuck with the wooden club and garbage bow for the foreseeable future.

 

When it comes to those in particular, I just think the first level of progression beyond primitive should not be based on loot barriers (for creation or maintenance). Using the wood club just becomes exceedingly tedious after a while, and the primitive bow proves to be worthless after, well, a single use. RNG should not affect the player's ability to acquire and maintain better options than these. I initially considered adding mods for the club, made from reasonably common materials (nails, scrap metal), to at least provide some sense of improvement if RNGeesus decided not to smile on you. But then I realized that due to the iron club's small stat increase and utter kludginess, any improvement path for the wood club would make the iron club effectively obsolete. The same is true for the primitive bow, though there you have the added challenge of suspension of disbelief [that something so worthless could ever be modified to a point of usefulness].

 

Same with things like cloth and leather armor to a lesser extent. The repair resource for an item should not be more difficult to acquire than the item's crafting components. If it had been this way from the beginning that would be one thing. It's the apparent trend of moving towards kludge at this point that concerns me.

[BobTheBard]

The repair resource for an item should not be more difficult to acquire than the item's crafting components.

 

Repeating this for emphasis. The reason a lot of people (myself included) don't use those items like iron clubs or cloth armor is because the upgrade over the previous tier isn't that big and the item I need to repair it is more valuable than the item itself is. That same repair kit could fix that steel shovel I looted, or a shotgun, or an auger. I'm not going to use it to fix my Q2 cloth armor. Why would I ever do that?

[Roland]

I understand that-- when you only have four repair kits. But there comes a time when you have a couple of full stacks....or you should be able to get that.... and then there is no reason to scrimp. If Q2 cloth armor is all you got then repair it or find better armor.

 

If the cost of a repair kit wasn't worth using for an iron club then people would be scrapping their used up club and making a new one instead of repairing it. So what is better? Repair or craft new? Is it a tough decision? That's not a bad thing.

[Laz Man]

I understand that-- when you only have four repair kits. But there comes a time when you have a couple of full stacks....or you should be able to get that.... and then there is no reason to scrimp. If Q2 cloth armor is all you got then repair it or find better armor.

 

If the cost of a repair kit wasn't worth using for an iron club then people would be scrapping their used up club and making a new one instead of repairing it. So what is better? Repair or craft new? Is it a tough decision? That's not a bad thing.

 

Not to mention you can get tons of repair kits from automotive crates...Might be an oversight though hehe...

[BobTheBard]

I understand that-- when you only have four repair kits. But there comes a time when you have a couple of full stacks....or you should be able to get that.... and then there is no reason to scrimp. If Q2 cloth armor is all you got then repair it or find better armor.

 

If the cost of a repair kit wasn't worth using for an iron club then people would be scrapping their used up club and making a new one instead of repairing it. So what is better? Repair or craft new? Is it a tough decision? That's not a bad thing.

 

But if I've done enough looting to have a full stack of repair kits I've almost inevitably found something better than that iron club and cloth armor, yeah? So the point still stands.

[Roland]

I usually swim in repair kits by forging my own iron and making or buying duct tape. I don’t necessarily have the baseball bat yet.

[Scyris]

Without kludge there is no space between different tiers. If it just takes scrap iron and wood to make the iron club then it can be made on day one and the wood club is obsolete before it ever had a chance to be played with during the game. I think that if you are the type of person who would rather just skip past the primitive tier of gear and get right to tier2 on day 1 then that definitely should be something that you mod in. Personally, I am fine with using the wood club for a few days until I can forge/acquire some forged iron and duct tape. It means that wooden club I had to craft in the tutorial quest isn't completely wasted and useless.

 

Same with the repair kits. If you find or were able to scrape together enough mats to make an iron club but you can't yet make lots of repair kits, then once your iron club breaks you'll have to use the wood club until you can get some repair kits together. Eventually you'll have a stack of repair kits and then the wood club really will be obsolete and useless as a game item. I'm just glad the kludge prevents that event from occurring by 12 noon on Day 1.

 

Unless you get lucky like me, my recent game, day 1 9:30 am (about 2 game hours since it started about 5-10 min real time) I found both a wrench and a steel pickaxe in the same shed, wrench is not a big deal but a steel pickaxe within a few mins after starting a new game? is gold. Oh the other hand, I had no duct tape or forged iron as I just started so I couldn't afford to use it for much as it was looted at 15% durability left. Fixed the repair kit problem late that night though looted a few duct tape, and took apart some things for forged iron.

 

This is one of the main reasons I love a18, it put back in the randomness that a16 had which it lost in a17. I also love the fact I can not invest in int and still be able to make almost everything if I can find the schematics. Now if only we could somehow fix the reliance on strgenth. Miner 69'er and motherload are both vital skills imo. Honestly? I'd like to see both of them combined into 1 single skill with the same 5/5 levels and same effects as the single ones, just to remove a bit of skill bloat. I still feel that a16's skill system with some tweaks would have been best, maybe have the action skills only tied to weapons, and mining tools, which then lets you learn the weapon/tool perks that are currently locked to stats. I play a mod called darkness falls, IMO the devs should give it a try and look at what he did with the skill system. He made classes, where each class gets unique recipes with mastery that no other class gets, as well as the stuff from it not dropping in loot. He also has learn by doing for weapons, and mining tools and athletics, but nothing else. His archery perk in the mod is amazing as well, as you get chance to knockdown and stun at later perk levels. p.s I love the archery book line, I just got the one where if I shoot the zombie in the leg, it can no longer run for a fairly good duration, so if I got a runner? I now aim for a leg shot with my bow, to cripple it so it cannot run making headshots easier.

 

I keep proposing that certain skills get decoupled from stats and put into a General Skill pool: ones like, living of the land, miner 69'er, motherload, some of the perception skills could fit in here too. Most importantly detach the damn weapons from stats, its so bloody annoying that I have to waste points in a stat to use a weapon decently when the stat really offers not much else of value. Namely its Agility I am looking at here and pistols. I like pistols, but I don't find agility otherwise all that useful. I am currently running a high agi build, i already have 7 agi and 4 in the stealth perk, 3 in archery, however zombies can still see me super easly and I mean sleepers. I was in one poi last night, and everytime I went into a room and the sleeper volume spawned, the second I crossed the doorway every zombie charged me, i was crouched with 4 in the stealth perk, armor wise, mostly padded armor, except helm and boots. Couldn't even get a sneak attack off with a bow. Also I didn't step on any of those garbage piles that made noise, I made sure of that.

[Scyris]

I usually swim in repair kits by forging my own iron and making or buying duct tape. I don’t necessarily have the baseball bat yet.

 

Honestly, by day 4 or so, you should have more than enough duct tape and such for your needs, depends a bit on RNG. Trader is your best friend, a18's stat system wouldn't work anywhere near as well if traders did not exist. I never bother with intel, I can be patient and wait to find the recipes, I actually prefer it that way, gives me more of a reason to go out looting. I for one am glad the game moved away from being super reliant on crafting, to crafting being still useful, but not the be all end all it used to be.

[Scyris]

I don't know how much this bothers me. I guess I'm okay with a fair bit of kludge since the game, although more polished than a great many so-called "AAA" titles, is still very much in alpha. So the devs are still doing a fair amount of "feeling things out" as it were. It may change in future releases, or if night get worse. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

I one way I like the "Kludge" in another way I don't, tier 1 weapons when scrapped the parts sell for more than the weapon would fully repaired, t2 and up its better to sell them. I do however wish we'd get more parts based on tier of thing we scrap. a t5 steel tool should give more parts than a tier 1 steel tool would imo. Its better quality so more likely to have more intact working parts when you disassemble it. I just wish the inventory had maybe another row or 2 to it. There is too many things you sort of want to always have with you.

[alphaniner]

I do however wish we'd get more parts based on tier of thing we scrap. a t5 steel tool should give more parts than a tier 1 steel tool would imo.

 

I could have sworn that the release notes, an in-game tip, or something indicated that higher tier items scrapped for more parts. I haven't reached the point where that's an option yet so I didn't realize it doesn't work that way.

 

That's spectacularly broken IMO, particularly in light of the new mechanic that increases resource requirements for crafting higher tier items.