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Scyris

Do you Turret cheat? or use any other exploits? Eg cheese ai base strats etc.

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Are you sure it was really intended for the turrets to shoot through players? Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but it seems more likely it's just a problem with a new feature they haven't solved yet.

 

I wouldn't call junk turrets new exactly, they've been released for five or six months. Until they fix it, or at least acknowledge that it's not intended to do that, then we have to assume they meant to do it that way (or, at worst, just don't consider it a big deal) because they haven't addressed it in 18.1, 18.2, 18.3, or 18.4 despite posts mentioning this going back to the launch of A18.0.

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Junk turrets make some sense. A device can be crafted irl to launch chunks of metal. The issue, and why it's OP, is due to its accuracy. The things just don't miss that much. I use them occasionally though. You just don't need them that much.

 

Horde nights and the AI thing is another matter. Zombies DO NOT run. Zombies are slow shambling husks. Anything that runs has to be alive and therefore is merely a living infected. I believe that utilizing an issue with the AI against the living infected is just fine. A living infected may or may not still have some of its faculties. Using an AI exploit against slow shambling zombies is just unnecessary. Is it cheating, per se? Personally, I've gotta say no, but that's just me.

 

I go with a drop base that contains them inside an enclosed space that is perfect for dropping Molotovs and grenades down into. I guess, what I'm saying here is that even if you don't care about it, it doesn't mean you have to use those bases.

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Posted (edited)

Binary answer Yes regarding junk turret. Do i consider it a cheat No.

 

"7DTD MacGuyver prayer"

By 4SheetzNGeegles

 

I take my tool into my hand

And try to use it as oft I can

 

As vigorously I use it, all the while

I think and watch as it makes me smile

 

Oh the joy that it brings, as I whack

and whail and whop some things

 

but then again should it fail

Then most certainly shall I wail

 

The only sorrow as it stands

Is that I don't have two

So I can use both hands

 

But shall only stop me for a bit

So give me more tools so i can do this ♥♥♥♥.

 

Explanation

 

It is an asset added to the game by the game designers for a singular

purpose. To keep your character functional. Derived purpose to add

content and fun. It is a tool, to be used as the individual sees fit.

It doesn't take advantage of a learned coding glitch bug or short coming.

 

Subjective comparison: Spears are they considered an exploit, no. How do

I use them? I whack wood till i can fill each slot with a stone spear in

the beginning. I take my spear in hand and throw it as often as necessary

till my opponent stops twitching. As i find suitable replacements, i

replace the spear slot and scrap it. Am I cheating?

 

Conclusion: is the companion junk turret considered a cheat? What would

be the subjective justifiable situation to use it, to make it not considered

a cheat or an exploit according to the thread?

 

Snarky answer: IRl I like to MacGuyver things, so I take my tool in hand

 

and use it as often as I can. So I do the same in games.:chuncky:

Edited by 4sheetzngeegles (see edit history)

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He says, while discussing a game about zombies, where you can learn to cook by mining coal and become a master rifleman without picking up a gun, where you can build concrete buildings with stone tools and assemble a fully-functional aircraft with a hammer, wrench, and wooden table. Where the same tools will repair a stick with nails in it or a rocket launcher. Where assault rifles and submachine guns use entirely different skills despite being functionally identical. Where one man with a stone pickaxe can dig out an entire underground bunker in two days, then hide in it subsisting on water alone. Where you can't simply shoot the trader and take his stuff because he's invulnerable to gunfire.

 

It's a video game, friend. The definition of 'cheating' is set by the designers, not the laws of reality. And using an item for its intended purpose, as it was programmed by the designers, is not cheating any more than using any other weapon is.

 

I respect your opinion that you think turrets are unfair, but please don't use such stupid arguments to defend it. Instead discuss turrets and their OP nature as you should - Compare them to other primary weapon skills (pistols, rifles, melee weapons, archery, etc) and tell us what makes them so overpowered compared to all the other primary weapons.

 

If all rifles were able to shoot thru players and hit zombies you may have a point. Only the turret does. It is not internally consistent with the IN GAME physics. If the game is not consistent with it's own set rules I call foul. By the way, the devs that programmed it to work that way? They fix exploits like this all the time, hopefully this one gets fixed as well.

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You wouldn´t get banned for using something built in by the devs in any game. That´s why it is not cheating. You don´t lilke it? Don´t use it? You play MP and don´t want it on the server? Make your own server without. If shooting trough the player is unintended it will get fixed, bugreport is the place for this post. Not general disscusion. Sick of people who wanna tell others how to play. It´s not a PvP game (yes i am aware that PvP is a thing, but we all know it is not designed for PvP) nor is it competitive in terms of E-Sport.

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He says, while discussing a game about zombies, where you can learn to cook by mining coal and become a master rifleman without picking up a gun, where you can build concrete buildings with stone tools and assemble a fully-functional aircraft with a hammer, wrench, and wooden table. Where the same tools will repair a stick with nails in it or a rocket launcher. Where assault rifles and submachine guns use entirely different skills despite being functionally identical. Where one man with a stone pickaxe can dig out an entire underground bunker in two days, then hide in it subsisting on water alone. Where you can't simply shoot the trader and take his stuff because he's invulnerable to gunfire.

 

It's a video game, friend. The definition of 'cheating' is set by the designers, not the laws of reality. And using an item for its intended purpose, as it was programmed by the designers, is not cheating any more than using any other weapon is.

 

I respect your opinion that you think turrets are unfair, but please don't use such stupid arguments to defend it. Instead discuss turrets and their OP nature as you should - Compare them to other primary weapon skills (pistols, rifles, melee weapons, archery, etc) and tell us what makes them so overpowered compared to all the other primary weapons.

 

Using it held in hand is perfectly fine, what makes them broken is you can place them (even 2 with high int) while also weilding another weapon in your hand. Can I use 2 m60's at once? 2 smg's at once? 2 ak47's at once? no. Its the only weapon where you can essentally dual weild by placing it down and pulling out another weapon. Not to mention there is 0 delay to pick it back up, the ammo is made out of scrap iron everyone has a abundance of in the inventory. It also has a fairly high knockdown chance. The major issue is, that you don't even need a int build to use them well, you just need to find one, then you can easly cheese the game, you could clear poi's by just placing the turret down and letting it kill them, it'd take time, but its 100% safe pretty much. Also the turret can use the drum magazine mod from Machine guns, I have a t3 junk turret that has a 174ish round clip and I have 0 in int at all. Even moreso when the default difficulty for the game now is essentally "easy". On nomad, players and zombies each do 100% dmg to each other, the one below nomad which is the new default, player does 125% dmg to zombies, while zombies do 75% to the player or something close to that.

 

From what I hear, a high int build with the turret perk high enough they can place 2 is OP as hell. They can clear poi's even t5's with next to no risk as they can just place turrets and hide, or pull out a gun to kill even faster. Its the only weapon that is that safe in the game. Look at it this way, we went all this time without them and did fine, and then they were put in, now most players depend on the junk turrets to survive. That alone should tell you there is a problem with them.

 

The A19 junk drone is going to make the problem even worse, as now you have a companion that heals you and is a mobile turret, it even has storage space you can store items in from what the dev was saying. You can probably store ammo in its storage and it'll reload using that ammo just like the player reloads a gun, or at least I'd hope thats what they do. A non-int build can probally use one too, if they loot or buy one.

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Posted (edited)

Going to address your post a bit out of order here.

 

From what I hear, a high int build with the turret perk high enough they can place 2 is OP as hell.

I reckon most Tier 5 weapon skills are pretty effective. Also, 'From what I hear' suggests you don't actually have a lot of personal experience with this, yet you talk like you're an authority on it.

 

They can clear poi's even t5's with next to no risk as they can just place turrets and hide, or pull out a gun to kill even faster. Its the only weapon that is that safe in the game. Look at it this way, we went all this time without them and did fine, and then they were put in, now most players depend on the junk turrets to survive. That alone should tell you there is a problem with them.

So basically what you're saying is 'never innovate.' Also, how do you know 'everybody' is using them? This thread is full of people saying they either never use them or only use them situationally. Do you play a lot of multiplayer that you'd be able to see everyone using them? Or is this just more conjecture? For my part I can only speak for myself, but I don't really use them.

 

The A19 junk drone is going to make the problem even worse, as now you have a companion that heals you and is a mobile turret, it even has storage space you can store items in from what the dev was saying. You can probably store ammo in its storage and it'll reload using that ammo just like the player reloads a gun, or at least I'd hope thats what they do. A non-int build can probally use one too, if they loot or buy one.

More speculation. Let's not complain about things going in the game because of what they might do, yeah? We have the barest framework of a feature and you're already trying to use it to discredit current gameplay elements that are only tangentially related.

 

Now the main meat of things.

 

 

Using it held in hand is perfectly fine, what makes them broken is you can place them (even 2 with high int) while also weilding another weapon in your hand. Can I use 2 m60's at once? 2 smg's at once? 2 ak47's at once? no. Its the only weapon where you can essentally dual weild by placing it down and pulling out another weapon. Not to mention there is 0 delay to pick it back up, the ammo is made out of scrap iron everyone has a abundance of in the inventory. It also has a fairly high knockdown chance. The major issue is, that you don't even need a int build to use them well, you just need to find one, then you can easly cheese the game, you could clear poi's by just placing the turret down and letting it kill them, it'd take time, but its 100% safe pretty much. Also the turret can use the drum magazine mod from Machine guns, I have a t3 junk turret that has a 174ish round clip and I have 0 in int at all. Even moreso when the default difficulty for the game now is essentally "easy". On nomad, players and zombies each do 100% dmg to each other, the one below nomad which is the new default, player does 125% dmg to zombies, while zombies do 75% to the player or something close to that.

That seems more like an issue with the settings than with the turrets. On normal difficulty settings most weapons don't need to worry about knockdown chance because they just one-shot the zombie. This only gets more true as the difficulty gets lower. As for clearing POIs 100% safely, most players with any playtime in this game can do that already because it's not very hard. I've done Tier 5 POIs on default difficulty with a wooden club and primitive bow, looting new weapons as I go. The over-reliance on and predictability of sleepers and the power of some low-level perks, especially regenerating health, renders this task 'not very difficult.' It also costs less than using scrap iron to reload a turret.

 

As for turrets themselves, let's have a peek. Disclaimer: I did not add in damage bonuses from mods or from the base attribute, as they are (if I remember correctly) the same across all weapons and therefore functionally irrelevant.

 

First, their base damage. I went into an unmodded game and grabbed a few weapons for testing. All weapons are Q5, the highest craftable level.

 

Turret: 15 damage, 109 rounds/min, Range 8

Pistol: 42 damage, 182 rounds/min, Range 21

M60: 58 damage, 455 rounds/'min, Range 59

 

So as a baseline, if we have two turrets (one held, one placed) then two junk turrets are weaker than a standard pistol (doing 15 damage at 218 rounds/min, for an average damage output of 52 DPS vs. a pistol's 42/182 = 127.4 DPS) at a range just longer than that of a pump shotgun. Considering the amount of 9mm ammo the average player is going to be drowning in if they're a busy scavenger and aren't incredibly wasteful, this is underwhelming. The M60 outright humiliates it, doing a blistering 58/455 = 440 DPS. But wait, what about with skills? Well, I'm glad you asked. Let's look at them.

 

Turrets at Tier 5 gain 40% damage, 120% rate of fire, and 9 range, and you can use another one.

Pistols at Tier 5 gain 50% damage and 25% rate of fire, and every third consecutive shot deals 100% more damage (which, for our purposes, will factor in as an extra 33% damage bonus).

M60s at Tier 5 gain 50% damage and 25% rate of fire. The stamina recovery isn't important for our purposes.

 

Modifying our previous numbers...

 

Turret: (15*1.4)=21 damage, (109*2.2)=239.8 rounds/min, Range 17

Pistol: (42*(1.5+1.33))=76.86 damage, (182*1.25)=227.5 rounds/min, Range 21

M60: (58*1.5)=85 damage, (455*1.25)=568.75 rounds/min, Range 59.

 

And now we re-do our math. Turrets now get multiplied by three (2 placed, 1 held) to get us 21 damage at a staggering 719.4 rounds/min, for 251.79 damage per second. An impressive boost! How does that compare to the pistol and the M60? Surprisingly, it's still losing to all of its counterparts. The pistol is now doing an aggregated damage of 76.86 damage at 227.5 rounds/min, which means it's doing 291.4 damage per second, and the M60? Hahahaha. The M60 is doing 805.7 damage per second. Not even a contest.

 

So we've established mathematically that, of the three contenders, the junk turret is the weakest. It also requires the most effort to manage, since you're juggling three turrets, two of which can't move, that all have to be reloaded periodically. This, importantly, deprives the player of their mobility - Wherever they are, they're stuck there or they have to abandon their two placed turrets. The pistol and M60 are both completely mobile by contrast. So what's the junk turret's advantage? It's cheap. But here's the other interesting thing - The higher you level them the more expensive they get since the main increase in their damage is the volume of shots. It's still cheap by comparison, of course, but it's not a non-zero cost anymore.

 

Something to keep in mind, eh? The numbers don't lie, turrets aren't as almighty as you seem to think they are. Yes, turrets knock targets down easily, but other weapons just kill them, and a dead enemy is better than a stunned one. Also to the point, you can't start taking bonuses to turrets until Intelligence 6, by which time you'd have level 3 of any other weapon perk. I'd say they're in line with other primary weapons.

Edited by BobTheBard (see edit history)

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It's a sandbox game. There are many parameters that can be adjusted, and many tactics to choose from. In the end, your exploits or foibles are meaningless.

 

I almost never use junk turrets because I can't be bothered to remember to use and reload them, and there's the 2 or 3 slots they'd take up in my inventory.

 

If you're playing on the higher difficulties, I don't see anything "op" about them. They're another tool in your arsenal...like landmines. Mines are of course much more material-heavy, but do huge AoE damage.

 

Okay, given that junk turrets have a short range, and limited firing arc, I wouldn't be opposed to them doing friendly-fire....for cosmic balance...to keep the Druids happy and all.

 

 

-Morloc

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You think you can clear a POI with the junk turret when you didn´t put any points in the perk? Muahaha. You are funny man. Making a huge fuss and not having any clue about the subject it seems. Maybe on the easiest difficulty this could work. Maybe. ROF and magazin size are so low with no points in the perk that i am pretty sure that doesn´t work. I know you can´t do that on nomad or warrior. No way.

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Do you turret cheat or use any other exploits? This includes stuff like base designs to cheese the AI etc.

 

Turret cheating is using junk turrets anywhere outside of horde night, perked into it or not,.

 

Uh yeah. Don't be a tool. Using a weapon as it is intended by the game is not "cheating". Even using that word makes your post ridiculous. Turrets for someone without firearms (all intelligence for the science skills) are necessary. Stun batons are not great weapons.

 

I've never used a junk turret, never will. They are the ultimate cheese imo.... I play always walk"

 

Sure, turrets are cheese, but no running zombies is not at all cheese.

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No, i don't use cheats and not even cheese bases. I want to have fun with the game, not destroy my own fun by myself.

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Uh yeah. Don't be a tool. Using a weapon as it is intended by the game is not "cheating". Even using that word makes your post ridiculous. Turrets for someone without firearms (all intelligence for the science skills) are necessary. Stun batons are not great weapons.

 

 

 

Sure, turrets are cheese, but no running zombies is not at all cheese.

 

One is a game setting. The other is an unbalanced weapon that I'm betting will be fixed.

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I love turrets, don't care what kind. My "end game" is me sitting on my porch, sipping lemonade while my turrets and traps keep me safe and cozy in my base.

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I hardly use junk turrets as ... they're extremely situational, and early game they're far more expensive for the low damage they give than other weapons. Late game they do very little to groups of zombies, radiated, rushing you, and for blood moon hordes not only is their ammo more expensive than dart traps for the same damage, they set off demolishers ... and have a very limited ammo capacity (200-250 max?).

 

So, early/mid game when you need some extra protection and knockdown it's great. Late game once in a while when you want a bit of extra firepower, but unloading with a high capacity M-60 is so much more fun, and so much more rewarding :) A junk turret doing 20-25 damage means to kill a 1k zombie is 50 shots. Killing a few zombies before I have to reload (which can be quite fast) is a pain, and then i have to carry thousands of junk ammo too.

 

 

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I've never used a junk turret, never will. They are the ultimate cheese imo. Being able to carry it everywhere, generate ammo on the fly from scrap metal and set it down for autonomous protection is just OP as hell. Same goes for the "exploit pathing" bases people are so proud of. Never built one, never will. I play always walk (because zombies don't run by MY definition) and do my horde nights on the street with some rows of spikes and barbed wire alongside the road.

 

You have a curious definition of 'cheese' by hating junk turrets and pathing exploits but then finding it acceptable to have zombies walking 24/7

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You have a curious definition of 'cheese' by hating junk turrets and pathing exploits but then finding it acceptable to have zombies walking 24/7

 

Walking Zombies are a game option that fits the genre, the junk turret is an unbalanced weapon I hope will be fixed. Pathing exploits are pure cheese of coding limitations. Call it curious all you want, it's my opinion.

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Walking Zombies are a game option that fits the genre, the junk turret is an unbalanced weapon I hope will be fixed. Pathing exploits are pure cheese of coding limitations. Call it curious all you want, it's my opinion.

 

Did you see my post where I did all the math showing that junk turrets are objectively bad weapons until you max them out, and that maxing them out only just brings them up to the same level as pistols? I've submitted facts into this argument now, so waving your arms and yelling about them being 'overpowered' isn't going to cut it anymore. You're going to need facts to back you up, too. Let's see 'em.

 

I begin to suspect that your problem with junk turrets has nothing to do with them being 'overpowered' but with them not fitting your idea of a zombie game. And you know what? That's fine. It's a lot more reasonable than the way you're presenting your opinion now. If they don't fit with your idea of a zombie game and you think they diminish the experience, just don't use 'em. But don't try to cast them as some great exploit or cheat, because they're not - They're a fairly weak (mathematically speaking) weapon choice that's only situationally useful, albeit rather good in the situation they're meant to be good in. That's all, no more, no less.

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You will notice them in A19 when they break through your roof. Maybe everyone will have turrets on their roof in A19. :)

 

As much as I think such would improve game play, I highly doubt they are getting through a concrete or iron bar roof (what I set up) so I doubt I will notice them though.

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Did you see my post where I did all the math showing that junk turrets are objectively bad weapons until you max them out, and that maxing them out only just brings them up to the same level as pistols? I've submitted facts into this argument now, so waving your arms and yelling about them being 'overpowered' isn't going to cut it anymore. You're going to need facts to back you up, too. Let's see 'em.

 

I begin to suspect that your problem with junk turrets has nothing to do with them being 'overpowered' but with them not fitting your idea of a zombie game. And you know what? That's fine. It's a lot more reasonable than the way you're presenting your opinion now. If they don't fit with your idea of a zombie game and you think they diminish the experience, just don't use 'em. But don't try to cast them as some great exploit or cheat, because they're not - They're a fairly weak (mathematically speaking) weapon choice that's only situationally useful, albeit rather good in the situation they're meant to be good in. That's all, no more, no less.

 

I've said it before but you obviously missed it. There is no need to make wrong assumptions about why I feel as I do. The reason I call them a cheat is because they shoot THRU my body and hit the zombies. Period. No other weapon in the game does this. THAT is why they are OP. If you had to avoid their fire they would be fine. THAT is what needs to be fixed. Standing directly in front of a turret and hitting zombies while my turret shoots right thru me is the definition of a cheat in my book. It defies not only rl physics but also the in game physics.

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Posted (edited)

The reason I call them a cheat is because they shoot THRU my body and hit the zombies.

 

This is no longer the case. I did a little test in A18.4. I spawned a zombie in a 2 block wide corridor and placed a junk turret behind me. As long as I was in front of the junk turret, the turret never fired. Only when I stepped aside did the turret fire. So it is not at all like that I can just stand in front of the junk turret and the turret shoots through the player and hits the zombie.

Edited by RipClaw (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

 

I've said it before but you obviously missed it. There is no need to make wrong assumptions about why I feel as I do. The reason I call them a cheat is because they shoot THRU my body and hit the zombies. Period. No other weapon in the game does this. THAT is why they are OP. If you had to avoid their fire they would be fine. THAT is what needs to be fixed. Standing directly in front of a turret and hitting zombies while my turret shoots right thru me is the definition of a cheat in my book. It defies not only rl physics but also the in game physics.

 

Every personal weapon you have is practically not hindered by your body, mainly because you always carry them in front of you. Definitely defies the laws of physics but how is that overpowered? What benefit do you get from them shooting throuigh you that an m60 in your hand doesn't provide you? Range? No. Damage? No. Accuracy? No.

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)

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Did you see my post where I did all the math showing that junk turrets are objectively bad weapons until you max them out, and that maxing them out only just brings them up to the same level as pistols? I've submitted facts into this argument now, so waving your arms and yelling about them being 'overpowered' isn't going to cut it anymore. You're going to need facts to back you up, too. Let's see 'em.

 

I begin to suspect that your problem with junk turrets has nothing to do with them being 'overpowered' but with them not fitting your idea of a zombie game. And you know what? That's fine. It's a lot more reasonable than the way you're presenting your opinion now. If they don't fit with your idea of a zombie game and you think they diminish the experience, just don't use 'em. But don't try to cast them as some great exploit or cheat, because they're not - They're a fairly weak (mathematically speaking) weapon choice that's only situationally useful, albeit rather good in the situation they're meant to be good in. That's all, no more, no less.

 

If I may interject, the missing parameter in your math is the crowd control feature, i.e. the strong stagger effect they provide, even with a low lvl1 turret.

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If I may interject, the missing parameter in your math is the crowd control feature, i.e. the strong stagger effect they provide, even with a low lvl1 turret.

 

This stagger effect is overestimated. Run some tests on a Q1 junk turret and a bunch of zombies. You will notice that the Junk Turret doesn't constantly switch between the zombies but keeps on firing at a single zombie until he falls over, is dead or is covered by another zombie. So you can't keep several zombies in check at once with the Junk Turret.

 

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So much drama for something that has just been introduced and needs some fine tuning as most of the new things do. In a PvE game. Where you could just not use it until the balancing for the game is done properly. Amazing.

 

I wonder why no one considers the sleepers going back to sleep once you die so you can easily get your backpack back without beeing disturbed cheating. I mean if you consider this cheating, than exactly knowing wich zombie is where and how much of them is even worse....

 

Also repeating how much someone considers this cheating doesn´t make it true.

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Every personal weapon you have is practically not hindered by your body, mainly because you always carry them in front of you. Definitely defies the laws of physics but how is that overpowered? What benefit do you get from them shooting throuigh you that an m60 in your hand doesn't provide you? Range? No. Damage? No. Accuracy? No.

 

You get the turret damage on top of the M60 damage. I thought that was obvious. Not sure why you think I was comparing the two...

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