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How bad is it for bunker lovers these days? (Haven't played since like Alpha 16)


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Anyway, I've rambled a bit there - but my point is that as someone who enjoyed having bunkers that were zombie-proof; yes, the ability to have that is no longer there. But I don't miss it, because it's so easy to build a zombie-proof base above ground these days.

 

Except that fully 100% zombie proof underground bunkers are still quite possible. This is the bit I don't get, some people seem to think that digging zombies have foreclosed all underground building, but they didn't.

 

BM Hordes can be fought at a separate base, or turned off altogether, and an undergound bunker, at bedrock and beneath a mountain is outside the zombie detection range and therefore as invulnerable as it ever was, especially if the heat producing furnaces and campfires are re-located one chunk away.

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I hope they don't nerf digging completely, but I feel that normal zombies dig too fast on non-BM nights and during the day....

 

I wish climbing Zombies were still in the game. I heard it was a thing that everyone complained about so it was nerfed. Perhaps the climber should just have a 5% change to fall back down for every block climbed vertically?

Edited by Tahaan (see edit history)
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Except that fully 100% zombie proof underground bunkers are still quite possible. This is the bit I don't get, some people seem to think that digging zombies have foreclosed all underground building, but they didn't.

 

BM Hordes can be fought at a separate base, or turned off altogether, and an undergound bunker, at bedrock and beneath a mountain is outside the zombie detection range and therefore as invulnerable as it ever was, especially if the heat producing furnaces and campfires are re-located one chunk away.

 

True, but I'm talking about having a simple underground bunker where the roof of the bunker is level with the surrounding ground. The sort of thing that can be built on day one with a level-one stone axe and shovel.

 

Digging down to bedrock under a mountain is not "a bunker", It's "a major mining project" - and see my previous post about finding that sort of mining tedious in the extreme.

 

Simple, safe, underground bunkers are no longer possible - but simple, safe, above-ground buildings are easier to make than they have ever been.

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Below ground can get intense and fun during horde night and its something I recommend trying once or twice. Its also great when you build a tunnel at bedrock that circles a trader. Just Run/Walk around the tunnel for horde night. You might be surprised what happens there.

 

Edit: The entrance to the tunnel needs to be "down the road" a bit. :)

Edited by Aldranon (see edit history)
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True, but I'm talking about having a simple underground bunker where the roof of the bunker is level with the surrounding ground. The sort of thing that can be built on day one with a level-one stone axe and shovel.

 

Digging down to bedrock under a mountain is not "a bunker", It's "a major mining project" - and see my previous post about finding that sort of mining tedious in the extreme.

 

Simple, safe, underground bunkers are no longer possible - but simple, safe, above-ground buildings are easier to make than they have ever been.

 

Ok, well, a bunker, 1 block down from the surface, is definitely not safe, that's true, but frankly, it never should have been anyway in my own personal opinion (of course), so I don't count that as any sort of loss.

 

Bunkers, at bedrock, are (ultimately) just as safe as they ever were, indeed, I think those people who were most strident in their criticism of underground bunkers have a much stronger argument to say that digging zombies haven't fixed that, than those who like them have an argument that digging zombies have broken them.

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Why would one disable zombies in a zombie survival themed game.

 

That is exactly what removing digging from zombies would do. It would disable zombies from an entire gamespace in a zombie themed game.

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I hope they don't nerf digging completely, but I feel that normal zombies dig too fast on non-BM nights and during the day....

 

I wish climbing Zombies were still in the game. I heard it was a thing that everyone complained about so it was nerfed. Perhaps the climber should just have a 5% change to fall back down for every block climbed vertically?

 

Climbing zombies were removed because they didn't work with the new pathing. It had nothing to do with people complaining about climbing zombies.

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True, but I'm talking about having a simple underground bunker where the roof of the bunker is level with the surrounding ground. The sort of thing that can be built on day one with a level-one stone axe and shovel.

 

Digging down to bedrock under a mountain is not "a bunker", It's "a major mining project" - and see my previous post about finding that sort of mining tedious in the extreme.

 

Simple, safe, underground bunkers are no longer possible - but simple, safe, above-ground buildings are easier to make than they have ever been.

 

I see this as a valid argument to improve the threat to above ground bases and not to remove the threat from underground bases.

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My compadres were still using bunkers at the start of A18 and it was still fairly effective for the most part if it was deep enough and not horde night. I kinda miss the old A16 desert bunkers we used to have, felt more survivaly on horde night. But diggers kinda made it pointless.

 

If given the option I would rather have the zeds not be able to dig like insane moles (or Mad Ones) even on horde night and just have them tear open your defenses and maybe EVENTUALLY dig around to get in through a side tunnel. But what we have are super mutant infected, not really undead. Oh well. If not for the limitations of hardware we could have insane amounts of zombies that are individually not as tough but thousands of them on the screen.

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That is exactly what removing digging from zombies would do. It would disable zombies from an entire gamespace in a zombie themed game.

 

No because you still need to go outside for food and water + go out on quests at the city for loot. If you stay at the bunker forever you die.

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No because you still need to go outside for food and water + go out on quests at the city for loot. If you stay at the bunker forever you die.

 

Water yes, food no. If you don't do anything you also don't burn food.

So get a few stacks of snowballs and 1 glass jar and happily drink water for a few thousand days. Alternatively use one day to get yourself lots of sand, create a few stacks of glass jars, fill them up at a lake

 

 

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Water yes, food no. If you don't do anything you also don't burn food.

So get a few stacks of snowballs and 1 glass jar and happily drink water for a few thousand days. Alternatively use one day to get yourself lots of sand, create a few stacks of glass jars, fill them up at a lake

 

 

Even more so, since you can still do underground farms for all plants, and, of course, there's mushrooms. Forge up a few thousand jars of water, stop once by a lake to fill 'em up, and you could bunker down till just about the end of time.

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I see this as a valid argument to improve the threat to above ground bases and not to remove the threat from underground bases.

 

Yes, it's a fundamental disagreement in how we think the game dynamics should work.

 

Me: You should have a safe haven you can make forays out from and retreat back to.

You: There should be no safe haven. Everywhere should have danger.

 

Ultimately there's never going to be a version of the game that suits us both without either an option that can be switched on and off or without there being some tactic that I would be happy to use but which you would consider an "exploit" or "cheese" and refuse to use.

 

The former would probably be ideal, but since I started playing (A15) it's always been the latter. Although I don't see it as "exploits", because that implies that there's some kind of flaw in the AI that I'm taking advantage of. This is a zombie game, and building bases that zombies' simple behaviour doesn't let them get into seems to be a fundamental part of the genre. The way I see it, it's the developers tweaking of the zombies to make them behave in decidedly un-zombielike ways to get around different base-building techniques in order to provide an artificial "challenge" that's cheesy and is the exploit.

 

Currently, the stat of the game is a compromise between the two. The above-ground base isn't totally safe - I do have to defend it from wandering hordes by going out and killing them; but its defense is trivial so I'm not in danger while I'm there and, more importantly, not ablative so I don't need to keep rebuilding and repairing it.

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Yes, it's a fundamental disagreement in how we think the game dynamics should work.

 

Me: You should have a safe haven you can make forays out from and retreat back to.

You: There should be no safe haven. Everywhere should have danger.

 

Ultimately there's never going to be a version of the game that suits us both without either an option that can be switched on and off or without there being some tactic that I would be happy to use but which you would consider an "exploit" or "cheese" and refuse to use.

 

The former would probably be ideal, but since I started playing (A15) it's always been the latter. Although I don't see it as "exploits", because that implies that there's some kind of flaw in the AI that I'm taking advantage of. This is a zombie game, and building bases that zombies' simple behaviour doesn't let them get into seems to be a fundamental part of the genre. The way I see it, it's the developers tweaking of the zombies to make them behave in decidedly un-zombielike ways to get around different base-building techniques in order to provide an artificial "challenge" that's cheesy and is the exploit.

 

Currently, the stat of the game is a compromise between the two. The above-ground base isn't totally safe - I do have to defend it from wandering hordes by going out and killing them; but its defense is trivial so I'm not in danger while I'm there and, more importantly, not ablative so I don't need to keep rebuilding and repairing it.

 

There are a lot of games with built-in safe havens. But it is rather unusual and counterintuitive for a horror game to have them. Understandable that TFP doesn't think it should be your way for vanilla and is on Roland's side in this.

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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There are a lot of games with built-in safe havens. But it is rather unusual and counterintuitive for a horror game to have them. Understandable that TFP doesn't think it should be your way for vanilla and is on Roland's side in this.

 

For that argument, the distinction comes in whether or not you think 7D2D is a horror game or not. I personally don't think it is, it's more of an action game with a horror paint job. You can certainly make it a horror game by tweaking the difficulty, but on its default settings it's not really any scarier than most other games. Resources (especially guns and ammunition) are too abundant, enemies aren't dangerous enough, and the only real challenge comes from horde nights which can be rather easily avoided using basic game mechanics. There's nothing to be afraid of beyond the occasional jump-scare of a surprise doggo.

 

On the original topic, I think the complaints stem less from 'My base isn't invulnerable' and more from 'It took me a lot of time and effort to make this base and it's objectively worse than holing up in a random POI.' A bedrock-level bunker is, as was mentioned, a major project, but digging zombies sabotage it on two levels. On the first level, digging zombies might eventually dig to it despite having no logical way of knowing it's there beyond 'this is a video game.' But the second level is that digging zombies nullify the greatest advantage of an underground base on a multiplayer server - They tell everybody there's a base there. So you'll get two different but similar types of complaint about this issue.

Edited by BobTheBard (see edit history)
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In general one doesn't have to look further away than the game's own mechanics, to realize that a safe haven would be unequivocally counter-intuitive for this game. This is evident by the game already containing elements that would become obsolete by it, such as any TD elements and building, after that first bunker building effort. In the end what remains is just a "go out and loot" gameloop. Might as well give players relatively cheap indestructible blocks. And it's painfully obvious that this goes against what the game intends to be.

 

TFP can add it as an option in the same way the sandbox mode in also an option, but there is simply no arguing whether it is counter-intuitive or not for the default state of the game. It's a fact, not an opinion.

 

That said, underground bunkers are a missed opportunity. An opportunity that could allow the developers to create more variety in the ways the player acts to survive. Digging zombies is more of the same. Perhaps in the future they could add, for example, an actually impactful weather system which can be avoided when underground.

Edited by RestInPieces (see edit history)
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They don't have infinite y-axis sensing. You can get deep enough to be beyond their sensing range but it has to be where the surface is at a high altitude so that the distance is far enough down to bedrock. Hence, I said dig to bedrock under a mountain.

 

I disagree that digging zombies ruins what differentiates this game from other games. It enhances that aspect. Why have destructible terrain that is completely impervious to the enemy mobs of the game that live in it? The only reason that it would ruin the experience is for PVP play where you don't want zombies giving away your location. But this game isn't primarily designed as a PvP game. In a co-op and single player game you can still build elaborate bunkers and then have to defend them.

 

If all you want is to build something elaborate and amazing underground and have it be untouched then turn off the zombies and have your building game.

 

Like I was saying their Y axis sense is too large it should be maybe 10 blocks MAX, not what 20 or 30 it is now? Of course on horde night the zombies GPS to you, so your still not safe on horde nights which is intended, but you shouldn't need to go all the way to bedrock vs non-bloodmoon zombies. I used to build underground only because everytime I try to build a base the shitty structural intergrity system screws me over and takes my whole base out because I placed ONE block to many somewhere. ONLY the most recent block should fall to tell the player: Hey you need a support here. Not have it cause a cascade that ends up taking the entire thing down. Its honestly my biggest gripe with the game, or one of them, the other is how stupidly op junk turrets are and the devs just seem blind to see it, as they leave the thing that makes it OP intact (the flinch/knockdown when placed and it shoots a zombie).

 

I do love how a18 lets you get stuff like chem labs and vehicles by just buying them, were no longer forced to go intel anymore like we were in a17. Still kinda forced to go str though as all the mining stuff is there.

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Why do you feel forced? Because the game is unbearable unless you are max in everything you want to do? You are locked out of no aspect of gameplay just as a natural unperked character. Zombies still die by the bullets shot out of your gun you never perked into. Ores still get harvested with that pickaxe even without strength perks. You can trade with NPCs and get quest rewards without skill point investment. You can build a shelter just as you are at game start. You can explore and find loot that is useful and you can craft a whole bunch of stuff right out of the gate.

 

Accept that you will be stronger in some areas and weaker in others and there is no forcing. Our character is quite capable of survival on Day One. You can only feel forced if you insist on being the strongest possible in all aspects of your game.

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Why do you feel forced? Because the game is unbearable unless you are max in everything you want to do? You are locked out of no aspect of gameplay just as a natural unperked character. Zombies still die by the bullets shot out of your gun you never perked into. Ores still get harvested with that pickaxe even without strength perks. You can trade with NPCs and get quest rewards without skill point investment. You can build a shelter just as you are at game start. You can explore and find loot that is useful and you can craft a whole bunch of stuff right out of the gate.

 

Accept that you will be stronger in some areas and weaker in others and there is no forcing. Our character is quite capable of survival on Day One. You can only feel forced if you insist on being the strongest possible in all aspects of your game.

 

The reason people feel 'forced' into speccing into mining and resource-gathering is because the average player is going to consume so many resources over the course of a playthrough that you're actively hurting yourself by not taking them. Time is a currency in this game too, and by not taking those perks you will spend roughly 5 times as much time performing the single most time-consuming task in the game. Sure, you can do it without taking those perks. But why would you ever choose to not take them? The only playstyle that doesn't benefit from them is that of the nomadic scavenger who hides in POIs, doesn't build a base, and loots items to sell to the trader and buy what they can't loot, since that playstyle bypasses the entire crafting aspect of the game altogether. So unless you're playing in that one particular way, those perks might not be forced on you, but they're so efficient and so useful that you'd have to be crazy, or playing a deliberate challenge run, to not take them.

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I see so many threads about all the excess that people have. Containers are filled with stacks of resources. I really do think the game is viable for building and crafting what you want from a centralized base and not being a nomad without having to go deep in those skills. I guess you could go crazy just thinking about how much wealth you could be bringing in if you had spent those points but I never let such thoughts bring me down. If I have enough of what I need with my current efforts I don't spend the points just so I can get more. Plus I can spend one point for a small increase without having to purchase any strength at all. My focus isn't on efficiency.

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Why would one disable zombies in a zombie survival themed game.

 

I have no idea.

 

Why does anyone want zeds to be unable to get to you because there is a single block of dirt between you and them?

 

I also have no idea.

 

In essence, if you are complaining because zeds can actually provide a threat underground then you are asking for zeds to basically be removed. You are even able to build a totally safe underground base right now and people are STILL complaining. It is nonsensical.

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Even more so, since you can still do underground farms for all plants, and, of course, there's mushrooms. Forge up a few thousand jars of water, stop once by a lake to fill 'em up, and you could bunker down till just about the end of time.

 

Nobody does that, curiosity always kills the cat. Specially now with vehicles, it's only natural to explore POIs around. The bigger the map and more varied POI's, the more people want to explore. As you spend days out, you'll have to battle full moons and adapt and improvise within POIs. Ideally, you want rare items that spawn only on rare POIs to incentivize exploration as much as possible. Such items would give you an advantage over zombies and humans (specially weapons, armors, etc etc... something people would really want). There would be no way around this but exploring (no traders of crafing recipes availible). Problem solved, you have now a very serious incentive to go out of the bunker and explore and you will be faced all kind of adversities. So it's about giving players incentives, not to ruin a certain gameplay or approach to how you plan a base in the game. It's about having options, not forcing someone's else vision in how to play the game.

 

Also finding out other bases and making alliances or defeating enemies is the best part of the game for anyone that really enjoys an experience that is as close to a real zombie survival apocalypse scenario where zombies are a treat but the real creepy thing is the human aspect becoming twisted as everyone fights for survival, which is why the mix of PvE + PvP is the holy grail in this game, and by not putting enough care in PvP side devs make an huge mistake.

 

Someone mentioned this is "an horror game". Nothing scared me and my friends more than finding out a group of people were spying on us at night as we left our secret underground base, when we came back they set traps for us and we were running being chased by zombies. We were paranoid they were sniping on us with night vision googles, they were high experience played that were there for months with massive kill counts. So you are no longer safe on your underground base, you are always alert and eventually you decide to abandon and move elsewere. That was pretty brutal. The mix of both zombies and humans is the true nightmare.

Edited by TheProphet (see edit history)
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the mix of PvE + PvP is the holy grail in this game

 

No disrespect, but I'm glad TFP aren't descended from King Arthur and decided to forego that particular quest. There's already plenty of offerings in the "sociopath survival" genre.

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No disrespect, but I'm glad TFP aren't descended from King Arthur and decided to forego that particular quest. There's already plenty of offerings in the "sociopath survival" genre.

 

 

What do you mean with "sociopath survival" lmao? If you mean other players being mean to you in a zombie survival apocalypse scenario, whoop de doo. That's part of a zombie survival apocalypse scenario. Finding enemies and possible alliances gives the game deeper gameplay dynamics than the two-dimensional "let's just worry about the zombies" aspect.

Edited by TheProphet (see edit history)
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What do you mean with "sociopath survival" lmao?

 

PvP survival games where it's common, even expected, for players to behave like sociopaths. Rust, DayZ, etc.

 

If you mean other players being mean to you in a zombie survival apocalypse scenario, whoop de doo. That's part of a zombie survival apocalypse scenario.

 

But being able to re-enter the world after dying is not a part of any scenario. It's not a matter of "being mean". It's a matter of the lack of serious repercussions in games dis-incentivizing civil behaviour (or incentivizing uncivil behaviour, depending on your perspective). Imagine how differently people would behave in PvP if there were serious, long-term consequences to getting killed.

 

I guess it boils down to the fact that I neither enjoy acting like a sociopath nor playing games that cater to people who do (which is not to suggest that you are such a person, just that there are enough such persons that I tend to avoid PvP)...

Edited by alphaniner (see edit history)
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