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Demo zombies damage is stupid...


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I see traps as an integral part of every tower defense game. In no tower defense game I have played so far you had to shoot at the enemy yourself.

 

Which is exactly why 7 Days to Die does not advertise itself as a Tower Defense game. It has elements of Tower Defense.

 

Somewhere between the viewpoints of Ac75 and Ripclaw lies the true nature of the game in regards to TD...lol

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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As a person who was totally terrified with the idea of demolisher horde nights, I must say, once experienced... they are counterable.

 

If you are just starting to experience them, you are probably seeing a half dozen per horde night, coming one at a time. They are not - and never were - an issue at that stage. It's when you get 30 and they come a half dozen at a time they got out of hand.

 

That said, you will probably wonder what all the fuss was about. They got nerfed hard and now are not much of an issue as long as you are careful. Now that you can kill them to prevent the explosion once triggered (used to be you couldn't stop it), and chain reaction explosions no longer occur (they kill other Demolishers when they explode now without triggering them), they are much easier to handle.

Edited by Ghostlight (see edit history)
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Which is exactly why 7 Days to Die does not advertise itself as a Tower Defense game. It has elements of Tower Defense.

 

Somewhere between the viewpoints of Ac75 and Ripclaw lies the true nature of the game in regards to TD...lol.

 

In other words: The element of TD games in 7 Days is that you can build a tower to defend it. :)

Edited by RipClaw (see edit history)
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I see traps as an integral part of every tower defense game. In no tower defense game I have played so far you had to shoot at the enemy yourself. Instead you send troops or set traps or both. Since you have no troops in 7 days you have to use traps.

 

There are many TD games out there in which you have to shoot at enemies yourself, like in the Dungeon Defenders or Sanctum series.

 

As for demos... I just wish they weren't so gimmicky... both theme and gameplay-wise.

Edited by RestInPieces (see edit history)
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I don't consider those game where you do stuff yourself to be Tower Defence in the true sense. Dungeon defenders is a prime example: not only do you run around fighting the enemies yourself, but you need to run to the places where you want to build your towers and do so manually. That is not Tower Defence in the true sense, where the player is a disembodied entity that is purely passive and towers can be built more or less anywhere.

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Amazingly, not one person has attempted to say that this game is tower defense in the true sense. We are saying that it has Tower Defense elements to it. Dungeon Defenders is certainly a hybrid game with one aspect being tower defense. If you can’t agree to that then there can be no conversation as your definitions are too narrow and ours are too broad to ever find agreement.

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Amazingly, not one person has attempted to say that this game is tower defense in the true sense. We are saying that it has Tower Defense elements to it. Dungeon Defenders is certainly a hybrid game with one aspect being tower defense. If you can’t agree to that then there can be no conversation as your definitions are too narrow and ours are too broad to ever find agreement.

 

i call these games with so many elements

 

 

"Hybrid Elements" sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't

 

but 7DTD has Survived those Mutations

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I hate those demo bastards as much as anyone, but they're a much needed injection of challenge for base builders. My crew's old kill tunnel from A17 made horde nights faceroll back then but has required several bits of revision...part of which is tactics on our end.

 

My biggest pet peeve with them is all that armor...not so much that they have it as it is to obtain countermeasures. I primarily stick to shotgun, which is useless on demos without slugs...which require a specific magazine to be able to craft. Don't luck out and get the mag? Have fun running away or switching to other weapons. Not that I'm married to the shotgun, mind you, but I prefer to leave the rifle rounds to friends since that's their main gun. But I keep some on me just to handle demos.

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I don't consider those game where you do stuff yourself to be Tower Defence in the true sense. Dungeon defenders is a prime example: not only do you run around fighting the enemies yourself, but you need to run to the places where you want to build your towers and do so manually. That is not Tower Defence in the true sense, where the player is a disembodied entity that is purely passive and towers can be built more or less anywhere.

 

The general TD concept is trying to prevent pathing enemies with traps/towers/etc from reaching something. Yes, if we want to be specific, those games have extra elements on top, but their whole gameplay revolves around the above. 7DTD fits the bill of having TD elements, but it has to adapt them with voxels and everything else, so a cluster♥♥♥♥ of problems is expected. The concept of being able to skip any part of the game you want (or "my playstyle" as people fallaciously called it), makes those parts meaningless, creating even more confusion. Thankfully they seem to be getting away from that and paying more attention to balance lately.

 

I hate those demo bastards as much as anyone, but they're a much needed injection of challenge for base builders.

 

Well, it's not impossible to both challenge the player and make something that at least fits more with the theme or involves more interesting mechanics than pop-a-mole. Everyone should be a base builder btw (as well as anything else).

Edited by RestInPieces (see edit history)
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I mean...I was just making a joke about the "30-minute sitcom era"... (._. )

 

<pedant>30-minute sitcoms have been a thing since the 40's.</pedant>

 

/not a Boomer

 

 

Thank you much. You saved me the trouble of mentioning this! :)

 

4acae36d61bd4179d28fae53d98ea864.jpg

 

-Morloc

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The concept of being able to skip any part of the game you want (or "my playstyle" as people fallaciously called it) ... Everyone should be a base builder btw (as well as anything else).

 

<Luke Skywalker>Every word of what you just said is wrong.

 

I'm kidding, though I disagree strenuously (it's not good for my heart) with the idea of "my playstyle" being fallacious on its face. Why should any of us give two spits how another person plays? Why should any of us, even in large groups, get to decide which ways to play are legitimate and which are not? This applies to any game, IMO, but doubly so in an open sandbox game. TFP builds a world and some rules for living in it. Go do it however you want! And let others do it however they want. "Everybody should be a base builder"? Ow, the disagreement is too strenuous, and I type this as someone who has always and only played as a pretty typical trap-encircled-base builder, standing on iron bars trying to kill them before they get to me.

 

(Co-op teams obviously are a slight exception since you'd want everybody on the same page about how you're going to survive.)

 

Thank you much. You saved me the trouble of mentioning this!

 

<ILoveLucy.jpg>

 

Not a boomer, but old enough to remember watching that in reruns.

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<Luke Skywalker>Every word of what you just said is wrong.

 

I'm kidding, though I disagree strenuously (it's not good for my heart) with the idea of "my playstyle" being fallacious on its face. Why should any of us give two spits how another person plays? Why should any of us, even in large groups, get to decide which ways to play are legitimate and which are not? This applies to any game, IMO, but doubly so in an open sandbox game. TFP builds a world and some rules for living in it. Go do it however you want! And let others do it however they want. "Everybody should be a base builder"? Ow, the disagreement is too strenuous, and I type this as someone who has always and only played as a pretty typical trap-encircled-base builder, standing on iron bars trying to kill them before they get to me.

 

(Co-op teams obviously are a slight exception since you'd want everybody on the same page about how you're going to survive.)

 

Typical boomer reply - you didn't even quote Yoda! :p

 

But seriously, it's not that simple - we were just talking about how the game is so much more than just a sandbox and if it doesn't give the player vital practical reasons to use, for example, its building/TD elements, they automatically become "unnecessary" and, briefly put, that's one of the reasons one sees the occasional "the game is a shooting grinder" thread, because the elements of the game can't be disconnected from each other. TFP decide obviously, and they have been actually (and thankfully) working towards this goal, e.g. with perks/recipes lately and hopefully with the improved weather/disease system in the future.

 

Anyhow shouldn't have stoked these fires - let's talk about demos instead.

Edited by RestInPieces (see edit history)
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I hate those demo bastards as much as anyone, but they're a much needed injection of challenge for base builders. My crew's old kill tunnel from A17 made horde nights faceroll back then but has required several bits of revision...part of which is tactics on our end.

 

My biggest pet peeve with them is all that armor...not so much that they have it as it is to obtain countermeasures. I primarily stick to shotgun, which is useless on demos without slugs...which require a specific magazine to be able to craft. Don't luck out and get the mag? Have fun running away or switching to other weapons. Not that I'm married to the shotgun, mind you, but I prefer to leave the rifle rounds to friends since that's their main gun. But I keep some on me just to handle demos.

 

I agree, although there has so much angst about them, they are definitely needed to keep the tension on later game. Do they need some more balancing? Probably and they will most likely be adjusted. For example, there is supposed to be Tier 3 weapons for all weapon types which may help even things out.

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I hate those demo bastards as much as anyone, but they're a much needed injection of challenge for base builders. My crew's old kill tunnel from A17 made horde nights faceroll back then but has required several bits of revision...part of which is tactics on our end.

 

My biggest pet peeve with them is all that armor...not so much that they have it as it is to obtain countermeasures. I primarily stick to shotgun, which is useless on demos without slugs...which require a specific magazine to be able to craft. Don't luck out and get the mag? Have fun running away or switching to other weapons. Not that I'm married to the shotgun, mind you, but I prefer to leave the rifle rounds to friends since that's their main gun. But I keep some on me just to handle demos.

 

 

 

but it makes sense Why they wear armor. their Military Ordnance. (AKA they work with Bombs/explosives) would you work with bombs without armor?

 

 

now about them i think they they should have a Weakness. "Like a turtle with a Hard shell, but low speed" the demolisher should be kinda slow due to his armor. and they should have a Easy leg cripple weakness so they could be "easier" to deal with.

 

or maybe Electricity can Disable the C4 but thats sounds a bit too OP.

 

 

 

but i think their kinda balanced and they are kinda fun to fight IMO. instead of just having to blow up zombies, you have to be careful or else you could have a big hole in your base. when a see a group i always get scared

 

 

now maybe later on the Alphas. maybe there could a Charging Zombie , a Long range sniper, Spiders could Be super Wall Jumpers?

cuz i and many people always want a challenge

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Typical boomer reply - you didn't even quote Yoda! :p

 

<The Good Place Janet> Not a boomer.

 

Anyhow shouldn't have stoked these fires - let's talk about demos instead.

 

Alright. I will just leave an anecdote. There was a guy here a few months back who mentioned that he likes to play the game as a city renovator, cleaning up rubble, fixing broken buildings, smoothing the roads and planting grass and trees. I thought that was awesome. And if the game mechanics were to change such that he could not play that way - because he must instead be a base builder - then 7D2D would be lesser for the change.

 

Anyhow. Demolishers...what's up with those guys anyway?

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but it makes sense Why they wear armor. their Military Ordnance. (AKA they work with Bombs/explosives) would you work with bombs without armor?

 

 

now about them i think they they should have a Weakness. "Like a turtle with a Hard shell, but low speed" the demolisher should be kinda slow due to his armor. and they should have a Easy leg cripple weakness so they could be "easier" to deal with.

 

or maybe Electricity can Disable the C4 but thats sounds a bit too OP.

 

 

 

but i think their kinda balanced and they are kinda fun to fight IMO. instead of just having to blow up zombies, you have to be careful or else you could have a big hole in your base. when a see a group i always get scared

 

 

now maybe later on the Alphas. maybe there could a Charging Zombie , a Long range sniper, Spiders could Be super Wall Jumpers?

cuz i and many people always want a challenge

 

Oh, I'm not advocating for the armor to be nerfed. I'd say your idea to have them a bit slower moving is sensible. Do agree that electricity disabling the bomb would be OP.

 

Just because the armor can be annoying doesn't mean I can't find ways to work around it (since there are plenty).

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Oh, I'm not advocating for the armor to be nerfed. I'd say your idea to have them a bit slower moving is sensible. Do agree that electricity disabling the bomb would be OP.

 

Just because the armor can be annoying doesn't mean I can't find ways to work around it (since there are plenty).

 

Oh lol my bad

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Oh lol my bad

 

All good. I didn't exactly convey my sentiment that well in my first post. If anything, the more annoying part of the armor is how some of the means to counter it (namely the AP rounds and slugs) can be a pain to obtain if RNGesus seems you unworthy, but that's a separate issue from the demolisher's themselves. 🙂

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but it makes sense Why they wear armor. their Military Ordnance. (AKA they work with Bombs/explosives) would you work with bombs without armor?

 

Show me the military unit where someone from the bomb disposal unit is wearing a biker helmet and leather clothes.

A bomb suit looks completely different.

 

now about them i think they they should have a Weakness. "Like a turtle with a Hard shell, but low speed" the demolisher should be kinda slow due to his armor. and they should have a Easy leg cripple weakness so they could be "easier" to deal with.

 

The demolisher does not necessarily have to have a weakness, but the player should have more options than either triggering the explosion or shooting at him with AP ammo and hoping not to trigger the explosion.

 

or maybe Electricity can Disable the C4 but thats sounds a bit too OP.

 

Not if the effect only lasts a few seconds. Then you'd have to use lots of electric fences to keep him stunned.

If the C4 charge is temporarily deactivated, you could use blade traps again without fear of triggering the explosion.

 

but i think their kinda balanced and they are kinda fun to fight IMO. instead of just having to blow up zombies, you have to be careful or else you could have a big hole in your base. when a see a group i always get scared

 

In my opinion, he is completely unbalanced. As far as I know, Madmole simply set the values of the demolisher in a spontaneous decision.

 

Originally the demolisher did more entity damage than block damage. When two demolishers exploded in his base without doing much damage he said that he will increase the block damage to 5000. This was done the next day and has not been changed since.

 

now maybe later on the Alphas. maybe there could a Charging Zombie , a Long range sniper, Spiders could Be super Wall Jumpers?

cuz i and many people always want a challenge

 

And what about the players who don't care about the challenge and just want to have a good time?

 

There are options to make the game harder for yourself. Rather than making the game extremely difficult by default, it is better to provide options to set the difficulty and keep the default difficulty moderate so that new players are not discouraged.

 

The Twitch Streamer Jonah Birch is currently playing on Insane, Always Run, 300% XP and Permadeath. This is almost as hard as it can get in Vanilla. If that's not enough for you then there are mods that make it even harder.

Edited by RipClaw
typo (see edit history)
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On one hand I think that they're ridiculous. On the other I completely understand what they're trying to do. In single player getting established in a defensible base can be rough initially, but I feel like the difficulty of the hordes ramps up pretty well to a point. Many of the early bloodmoon nights can be frantic (particularly in coop multiplayer where the amped up game stage means facing powerful zombies and more of them) and I often find myself just barely able to keep repairs on a door up and defend the entrance with a junk turret and the ammo I have scavenged. Those nights are a lot of fun when I have to worry about being overwhelmed. Then there comes a point where it's nigh impossible for z's to break into my base to cause me problems, usually right around the point where I get to steel and can get enough made to put a vault door on and start upgrading the important bits to concrete. There's this lull in how threatening bloodmoons are. In singleplayer it can last a long, long while.

 

I've got a permadeath singleplayer game using all normal settings where I just did the day 56 bloodmoon and it was completely trivial with no electric traps, no falling pits, just me using a single junk turret (not int spec'd) and a pistol. That character is level 67 and at game stage 146 and I haven't seen a demolisher yet. I know they spawn at ~150+ but I've spent a lot of hours facing hordes that are a yawn. In contrast, I've got a coop game going on where we're at day 27, bloodmoons are set to 5 +/- 2 days, run speed is increased but it's default difficulty, on night 26 we had our 4th bloodmoon and we thought we were going to lose the base at several points because we're getting tons of cops and irradiated zombies. And it was extremely fun because it was touch and go for a while.

 

With the current zombie AI I'm not sure how they maintain that difficulty/threat curve without doing something outlandish like a zombie that blows up everything in 5 blocks for 5k block damage. If that explosion was removed even they would be trivial. In multiplayer I feel like it's not terribly imbalanced though it is a threat (at least in the coop games I play where it's me and up to 3 others playing together). We call them out and try to focus fire them down and that usually works even if we sometimes get an explosion. In single player I tend to stop once I reach the point where I'm getting them on bloodmoon nights because other zombies seemingly hit and trigger them while I'm shooting them from behind and I can't kill them fast enough to stop them from just obliterating my base anyways.

 

If they changed the explosion so it scaled based on game stage and made it not trigger from zombie hits/blade traps they'd still be challenging and something we'd have to be careful about mindlessly shooting at. Increase the wear and tear on blade traps from armored zombies (that might happen already, don't know how that degradation works). Or better yet, add in other zombies that have special effects that can temporarily disable automated base defenses i.e. a zombie that explodes in sticky goop after it dies that has to be damaged off of blade traps or an electrical zombie that explodes doing shock damage in a radius that acts as a short term EMP. Better yet, add zombies that don't follow traditional attack avenues so it can't be funneled the same way and splits attention while base defending i.e. actual climbers/flyers. Maybe scale up the number alive by game stage. I've seen in the console it has a number alive that seems to grow with game stage but I still seem to only get 8 alive at any given time regardless. Or all of that.

 

The late game definitely needs something to be threatening. Maybe that something has to be bandits and we just have to wait til we get there. But demolishers as they currently are just kill my desire to play single player.

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With the current zombie AI I'm not sure how they maintain that difficulty/threat curve without doing something outlandish like a zombie that blows up everything in 5 blocks for 5k block damage.

 

Making the game increasingly difficult and increasing the threat of zombies is not the only and certainly not the best way to keep players interested.

 

Many games change pace to keep players interested. For example, action, story and puzzles alternate.

 

One way to keep players interested is to give them tasks that keep them busy for a long time. One suggestion was to build a colony, populate it with NPCs and defend it. Due to the limitations of the game, the NPCs could not do much except to give the player quests, but that would be something to give the player something to do.

 

Of course, at some point a point is reached where this is no longer enough, but no one expects a game to remain interesting forever.

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Making the game increasingly difficult and increasing the threat of zombies is not the only and certainly not the best way to keep players interested.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that I like demos at all as they are. I'm simply saying I understand they are trying to develop an engaging endgame and this iteration might be the sorta brute force method of ensuring that endgame stays challenging while they develop other things (bandits, other zombie types, story stuff that pushes us away from established bases, whatever) to take on that function before they fine tune the balancing on demos.

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