Ghostlight Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 I cant find any videos linked above by you, only those linked by Ripclaw. Which pretty much demonstrate the uselessness of Blade Traps against them. Apologies, I genuinely want to see them. However if you mean Kage's video I already told you it no longer works like that and wouldn't scale anyway. And I don't mean difficulty scaling. If Kage hadn't restarted his world recently, his design would have eventually gotten to a high enough GS where he'd have many Demos at once. In the video I saw (the one where he makes the mistake and uses the wrong ammo) - which I *think* is the one you keep referring to - his GS was low enough that he got only one Demo at a time max, and his difficulty was low enough that an M60 could easily kill it in the event it triggered the C4. but a ramp leading the Zeds up so that they hit it at HEAD height; regardless of zombie type; since they meet it vertically. This no longer works. It's easily tested. A ramp leading up to a hanging Blade Trap is now one of the more reliable trigger conditions. Just to be 100% clear, in this video go to 7:48. Notice if you were to raise the Blade Trap one block higher than he has it in the video, and stun lock them right there, it will not hit the Demo at all now (it used to before a recent patch). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianbluebeer Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Finally saw my first demolishers last night. Day 49 horde. GS 154. Got a grand total of 3. M60 chewed them up just fine. (default difficulty) The electric fence/dart trap base works just as well in 18.3 as in 17. (meaning I have to turn off the front half of the traps if I want the zeds to even make it up the steps) One cop blew up, the steel laughed at him. (I turned off the traps on the steps, and guess he was damaged, and then blew up rather than coming further. oh well) No idea what happens if I get a bunch at a time, only time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadGerry Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 snip. That's NOT the way which they are used in the videos I have been continually referencing. In the video you show, there is flat ground, 1 ramp up to flat ground 1 up, then a space and a block. There is no fence stun locking them. having the blade trap off to the side means the zed walks through the arc of the blades, maximizing the hit box, but increasing the probability of hitting the detonator. The lack of stun lock lets the Demolisher get all the way up the ramp to the flat ground 1 up from where it start. It is upon standing at THIS height - totally up the ramp - that the detonator falls within the Blade traps hit box. In the one I reference which you have apparently seen; There is flat ground then a ramp up to level ground 1 up on the start ground. The Blade trap hangs down directly above where the zeds walk up, not off to the side. The Electric fence stun locks them before they have reached the top of the ramp. They do not reach the top of the ramp so the detonator does not end out within the hit box of the blade trap and is, therefore, not set off. Kage's most recent horde nights were on the most recent patch - there has been no patch since then. I am successfully using this technique now; as are others - and despite not being great at this game, I have not made any mistakes so far and have coped with up to 6 Demolishers at once in addition to the other zeds around; max alive usually around 16-20; though frame rate issues have had me tweaking this a lot of late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2n1 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 It doesn't matter how well it works. No need to add any fairy-tale and cartoon characters - they spoil the atmosphere. What kind of fear can we talk about if spider-man runs at me with a glowing ass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam the Waster Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 It doesn't matter how well it works. No need to add any fairy-tale and cartoon characters - they spoil the atmosphere. What kind of fear can we talk about if spider-man runs at me with a glowing ass? ?????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boidster Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 So, they're new, nobody could see that coming, they're terrifying, seemingly unstoppable, and the first few times you see them odds are very high you're going to be reduced to running from the wreckage of your formerly-comfy "base" chased by half the entire zombie horde, until some week in your desperation you finally try something that happens to have at least _some_ effect on them and start piecing together some workable defense tactics. Assuming you live that long, of course. That description would make me want to play that game. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prisma501 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 ?????????? He is just being sour. All the time. Just ignore. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam the Waster Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 He is just being sour. All the time. Just ignore. Cheers sounds like me at school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feycat Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 We haven't really had much of a problem with the demos, though I admit they are exciting. Your first couple hordes will be fine with a flagstone base with some cement at the 1-3 high blocks, unless you're playing on a high difficulty. Demos will not one-shot cement. They will one-shot anything less than that. They won't break upgraded cement without help from other zombies or multiple explosions in one place. They won't break steel at all. We've had no problems because we're scaling our base as much as we can. They blow holes in the landscape and we use that opportunity to fill the hole with cement blocks. They blow holes in our outer barbed wire perimeter, but it's not meant to last the whole night anyway. They blow up blade traps, but those usually don't survive a night anyway. And if you build a base with a kill corridor and make sure it's entirely upgraded with steel, and use dart traps instead of turrets, you've got no problem at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 That's NOT the way which they are used in the videos I have been continually referencing. In the video you show, there is flat ground, 1 ramp up to flat ground 1 up, then a space and a block. There is no fence stun locking them. having the blade trap off to the side means the zed walks through the arc of the blades, maximizing the hit box, but increasing the probability of hitting the detonator. The lack of stun lock lets the Demolisher get all the way up the ramp to the flat ground 1 up from where it start. It is upon standing at THIS height - totally up the ramp - that the detonator falls within the Blade traps hit box. That's not correct. He placed another block at the top of the ramp so the Demo cannot get all the way up. The Demo never leaves the block that has the ramp. It is the equivalent of stun-locking it in the middle of the ramp. I've tried it. - - - Updated - - - Demos will not one-shot cement. They will one-shot anything less than that. They won't break upgraded cement without help from other zombies or multiple explosions in one place. They won't break steel at all. Tested many many times. A Demo exploding one-shots Re-enforced Concrete and 3-shots Steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 We haven't really had much of a problem with the demos, though I admit they are exciting. Your first couple hordes will be fine with a flagstone base with some cement at the 1-3 high blocks, unless you're playing on a high difficulty. Demos will not one-shot cement. They will one-shot anything less than that. They won't break upgraded cement without help from other zombies or multiple explosions in one place. They won't break steel at all. If a demolisher explosion did not destroy cement, You either reduced the block damage or it was at a time when there was a bug in the game that caused the land claim block to reduce the explosion damage. This bug was fixed in A18.1: * Demolition zombie's explosion is affected by claim strength. The Demolition zombie's explosion damage is 5000 and it has a 5 block explosion radius. On default settings concrete is immediately destroyed by an explosion. Reinforced concrete survives with a few HP remaining if it was previously undamaged. Steel survives 3 explosions. I use a kill corridor with dart traps and electric fences myself but the iron consumption is very high and they are not really effective because the armor of the demolisher reduces the damage to 40%. Unfortunately there are no traps that can penetrate the armor like AP ammo. This is something I would like to see in base building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 I agree. We have ended up using Sniper Rifles on horde night. We use a 2-stage Steel-walled and Steel-floored tunnel system. Stage 1: multiple rows of Electric Fence to hold up the horde in general within the first part of the Tunnel, but we only shoot the Demolishers and Cops here. For this we use high tier Sniper Rifles using AP ammo - takes 8 to 10 headshots per Demolisher with that. This kills the Demos early in stage 1 of the tunnel. The rest of the Horde are allowed to advance to stage 2. So a filter basically. Stage 2: Tunnel widens into a sea of Blade Traps and a number of tier 6 Junk Turrets* (that the Demos never actually get to because we have Sniped them all during the Stun-lock phase in stage 1) - this handles the rest of the horde. Net result is no Demo explosions trigger whatsoever (as long as we don't miss our headshots or too many Demos come at once, but we are all pretty good, so we don't miss ;P) Remainder of Horde is handled cheaply using the Blade Traps / Turrets, and we also have the option of tossing explosives at them in the stage 2 area, which is very cost efficient. This is working very well and is pretty cheap, but does hugely rely on pin-point accuracy from the Snipers. So far, we've had no accidents, and we just did the day 56 horde. GS is 290, on Insane. Total cost was about 500 AP rifle rounds, 80 Grenades, 4000 Junk Turret ammo and a half dozen Blade Traps - the AP rounds were for the Demolishers/Cops, everything else we spent was for the remainder of the horde. I wasn't being super accurate with counting, but it felt like about 30 - 40 Demolishers in total, and the max I saw at one time was only 4 (have they nerfed that or is it RNG??) * Junk Turrets are stupidly OP ;P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadGerry Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 That's not correct. He placed another block at the top of the ramp so the Demo cannot get all the way up. The Demo never leaves the block that has the ramp. It is the equivalent of stun-locking it in the middle of the ramp. I've tried it. You are correct, I mis-saw that; however if you watch it again closely, you'll see the Demolisher make a little 'jump' motion just before the detonator is set off; this is it arriving at the top of the ramp and attempting to either attack the block or jump over it - not sure which. While you are 100% correct in your reading of that situation, I believe my assertion remains correct that it having the blade trap hanging from directly above, and the electric fence stun locking them prevents them reaching the point where the detonator is activated. There is evidence of this in watching Kage's videos - and in my own experience. I have never seen the blade trap set of a detonator. I have seen shotgun turrets do it, and shooting with non AP ammo do it, but while the fence remains active I have not seen darts, the blades or other zeds set it off; and using AP ammo I have not yet had one go off. It could very well be that I've just been super lucky, but so far so good; so it is - at least - possible that this set up is reliable; but it sounds like you also have another reliable set up; and I see lots of cool experiments using heavy hatches as additional shielding; so it would seem that, as I've been saying all along, multiple strategies are viable; it's just gonna take experimentation and patience; and not getting too caught up in sticking to one strategy or considering base destruction an unacceptable cost of researching. I'm sure we'll all be super annoyed when we finally nail something down if they then get nerfed and it's all been for nothing; but I hope they'll keep the demolishers as is and maybe provide a few more varied options in terms of stronger walls and more variable traps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerdlette Gaming Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 As a person who was totally terrified with the idea of demolisher horde nights, I must say, once experienced... they are counterable. Sure, I usually blow up at least one every horde but thats mostly due to lack of attention or another zombie pressing that sweet sweet button. However, I think its kind of cool to have zombies with different mechanics that challenge you and make you play/design/build differently. It's the same with the cop spit that I detest. But just because we don't like it, doesn't mean its wrong, and certainly doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the game and something we deal with. It gets my brain working on how to counter it, and that's a huge part of what I like about base building. If you want to fully avoid it, u could just dump them in a pit thats 6 high and the blast would never affect you... so it's not like you can't always just cheese it. But it's up to you how you play the game. The demolishers are a nice challenge. Looking forward to more leaping/ranged/basedestroying zombies in the future! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimpy Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 A relevant meme: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ac75 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Yep, a work in progress Which means from these developers, nothing that will be changed anything soon When are you guys going to admit this whole scheme abused the hell out of the Early Access model? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Yep, a work in progress Which means from these developers, nothing that will be changed anything soon When are you guys going to admit this whole scheme abused the hell out of the Early Access model? There are currently as I can count it 4 models employed with Early Access Model One: Scam The developers intentionally put a rudimentary game up and work it to get it greenlit but once they get enough purchases to give them a nice return on their investment they abandon the game and keep the money. Model Two: Marketing The developers put a game that is in its beta stage into early access to get some early sales and exposure. The game is practically done and is in and out of Early Access in 1-2 years. Most of the alpha stage development was done behind closed doors long before the game went to early access. Model Three: Fizzle The developers put a game that is in alpha stage into early access and sincerely wish to develop it to completion but through mismanagement and/or bad planning the game runs out of funds and fizzles. No ill intent but no adequate funding to bring it to gold. Model Four: The Whole Enchilada The developers put a game that is in alpha stage into early access and allow the public to be part of the actual process which can take years and involves revisions, cutting, iterating, and through it all times where there are bugs and memory leaks that make the game unplayable. The developers manage their company well and take the time they need to bring it to gold. Community feedback is used to varying degrees during this process. 7 Days to Die and The Fun Pimps I can assure you that The Fun Pimps have been using Early Access for exactly what it was intended. Crowd funding and a chance to develop their game from an early state all the way to gold all while being in the public eye. They are managing their company well and are fully funded for taking the amount of time they need to finish the game. There has never been one moment of abandonment or any long periods of time where development ceased. The time between Christmas and New Years is the longest period of time the developers ever take off and close everything down. Other than that period of time development has been proceeding nonstop. If you've ever played a game that took the second model for Early Access then I could see you being confused about why this game was different. TFP didn't use Early Access simply as a marketing stunt for their almost finished game. They jumped in at a truly early stage of their game's development. It is easy to see if you look at screenshot of Alpha 1 and compare it to what we have now. Change like that doesn't just happen overnight and with no effort. It's tough to grok that sometimes in this 30-min sitcom era we live in.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boidster Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 There are currently as I can count it 4 models employed with Early Access... Ugh, TL;DR. /s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uselessjunkaccount Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 I personally believe they added them to increase repair costs in the end game to stretch it out and give you something to do during the week. That's actually fine with me but they need to be tweaked. Firstly other zombies should not be able to set off demolishers. I've had plenty start beeping when I was not looking at them and no trap were effecting them. Once you get to a high enough game stage this is just inevitable even if you're perfect with design and shot placement. Secondly, they should make traps non-destroyable. I'm fine with them becoming non-functinoal in one shot but destroying them is just absurd. Either that or dial down the crazy initial construction cost for things like turrets and blade traps. Same for other electrical components and generators. They could even up the repair costs for them and it would make the quality of life in the game so much higher since it takes so long just to put all these components down again and set them up and wire them, the time investment for this alone in advanced bases is absurd to do every week. At least give us some small portion of QOL back in regards to traps and demolishers. I'm not sure how many devs understand this stage of the game firsthand because whenever they put up lets plays on TFP Youtube channel there's never any traps in any of their designs. Thirdly, they should turn down the ability for the explosion to go down through so many blocks. As it is you remove the ability to build elevated walkways/bridges and any corridor with walls used to funnel zombies as there is way too high of a risk/reward cost because they destroy things 5 blocks deep and then the entire design is pointless. Or at least make it so steel blocks alone do not allow any penetration underneath them but for lesser blocks leave it as it is. Just please give us some ability to be able to use traps and direct zombies through pathways and elevated walkways so that a single demolisher doesn't ruin the whole design. Fourthly, this point kind of goes with one above but do people remember the cream/oil stuff you used to be able to buy from the trader to further upgrade steel blocks? Perhaps put this back in the game and make it an explosion resistance item. Make it expensive. I think this might be the best option as it gives you yet another thing to want to work towards and since it would cost money it would involve things other than the current mining/repairing end game. Or maybe how about a rocket launcher round with heat-seeking that paths to demolishers and one-shots them? Make the rounds really expensive and only available at the trader. I would love to see adventuring become worthwhile again in end game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ac75 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Ugh, TL;DR. /s That’s a lot to say about one of the longest EA titles that still has no final version on a roadmap like everything definitely does. I know a great deal about game development and publishing. Yes, other titles have clearly roadmapped progress. TFP threw that map out a long time ago. We can only defend 7d so long in a professional context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 I wouldn’t doubt if no one read that. Sorry Roland, that’s quite a text wall- might read it sometime... <shrug> Read more. Improve your mind. There's some short advice for ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 snip. Have to disagree on model 2. If it comes out 3 months later, it usually would be marketing, but 1-2 years in EA means there is still a lot of balancing and beta-testing involved. A good example of this is "Slay the Spire". There was a massive amount of fine tuning of the available cards. Small games can be developed in under 2 years, so the simple classification by looking at development time isn't all too good either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boidster Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Ugh, TL;DR. /s I mean...I was just making a joke about the "30-minute sitcom era"... (._. ) <pedant>30-minute sitcoms have been a thing since the 40's.</pedant> It's the InstaTwitFaceChat era that's killing critical thinking and attention spa...OOH new season of The Bachelor sorry gotta go. /not a Boomer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Have to disagree on model 2. If it comes out 3 months later, it usually would be marketing, but 1-2 years in EA means there is still a lot of balancing and beta-testing involved. A good example of this is "Slay the Spire". There was a massive amount of fine tuning of the available cards. Small games can be developed in under 2 years, so the simple classification by looking at development time isn't all too good either. True. Plus size of team. I guess I was talking about a game comparable in scale to 7 Days to Die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 I'm not sure how many devs understand this stage of the game firsthand because whenever they put up lets plays on TFP Youtube channel there's never any traps in any of their designs. That's something I'd be interested in as well. Madmole has tried something with traps but you can see clearly from his design that he has no experience with traps. I see traps as an integral part of every tower defense game. In no tower defense game I have played so far you had to shoot at the enemy yourself. Instead you send troops or set traps or both. Since you have no troops in 7 days you have to use traps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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