2 Criticisms

[joeevaristo]

I was a bit too busy to play and monitor the changes during experimental this time around, but my group and I just got back into playing. Overall, we really love A18, especially the skills rebalance and new R mechanic, but we've got 2 criticisms we've all agreed on:

 

1. Zombie reach: it's really wonky. We can see their hands land in front of us, but still take damage. It feels like many have the same range as a spear, unless there's an actual block as a barrier in between. It's a little frustrating to be consistently hit when leaving a spear's distance in between, especially when it doesn't visually line up with their actual arm reach. Crawlers seem to be the worst culprits.
    
   
2. Farm plots: I noticed the feedback on the forum has been mostly positive, but my (very small, for what it's worth) group absolutely hates these. The concept is just silly: being unable to use the ground is just arbitrary. Why would any farmer make pots when there's ground available? It's very immersion-breaking because it doesn't make any logical sense. It would be more reasonable to limit food growth with a fertile ground mechanic, or creating soil required some kind of effort beyond tilling. Even requiring watering and adding irrigation blocks/tools would help to suspend disbelief. I really hope these plots go away, the concept is just absurd.
    
   Has anyone used mods to revert this functionality yet? I usually like to play vanilla, but I really want to erase only this one thing from my play.
   

[meganoth]

What is so absurd about normal ground being poisoned by some zombie or occult radiation and you need a special process to filter that radiation out. That is the reason you need rotten flesh for it. It sucks out the dangerous stuff (sort of like activated carbon) and then gets thrown away.

[ShadesOfKnight]

What is so absurd about normal ground being poisoned by some zombie or occult radiation and you need a special process to filter that radiation out. That is the reason you need rotten flesh for it. It sucks out the dangerous stuff (sort of like activated carbon) and then gets thrown away.

 

 

What's absurd about "occult radiation?" Hm... Let me ponder that one for a moment. Occult... Radiation.... Magic.

 

Yeah, nothing absurd there.

 

(For the record, I know there's another definition of 'occult.' But that's less funny.)

[Jeraal]

I agree with both points. The reach is off and I absolutely hate the new farming mechanic. Not because it's hard or anything like that. The plots are unsightly and I liked the way farms looked before.

[Boidster]

Farm plots are kinda silly, considering they had a perfectly usable and realistic farming mechanism before. I choose to believe that TFP a) recognizes that farm plots are kinda silly in comparison and b) would not intentionally make a kinda silly change like this without good reason. I therefore conclude that changing from "hoe any soil and plant wherever you want" to "craft a specific block type into which seeds can be planted" provides some performance or stability benefit. Terrain vs. blocks.

 

I'm not smrt enough to know exactly how that benefit might work, or what problem this slightly silly change was meant to address.

 

"Baseball bat parts" are far, far more silly. As they were adding them to the code I'm surprised a British army Colonel didn't appear in TFP HQ and shout, "STOP THAT! STOP IT, IT'S ENTIRELY TOO SILLY!"

 

ETA: Agree about the zombie reach. I've learned to adapt and can mostly stay within spear reach but outside of zombie arm reach, but they still sometimes hit me from a "WTF?" distance. When they do that, it's shotgun time.

[RipClaw]

Farm plots are kinda silly, considering they had a perfectly usable and realistic farming mechanism before. I choose to believe that TFP a) recognizes that farm plots are kinda silly in comparison and b) would not intentionally make a kinda silly change like this without good reason. I therefore conclude that changing from "hoe any soil and plant wherever you want" to "craft a specific block type into which seeds can be planted" provides some performance or stability benefit. Terrain vs. blocks.

 

As far as I know, it was changed to slow down farming.

 

Once you had a hoe, you could plant a garden of any size. With farm plots, you need ingredients that you either mine or harvest. The biggest limiting factor is the rotting meat. The other ingredients are very easy to get in large quantities but for rotting meat you have to collect every roadkill you find or kill vultures, dogs and zombie bears.

[Kalen]

As far as I know, it was changed to slow down farming.

 

Once you had a hoe, you could plant a garden of any size. With farm plots, you need ingredients that you either mine or harvest. The biggest limiting factor is the rotting meat. The other ingredients are very easy to get in large quantities but for rotting meat you have to collect every roadkill you find or kill vultures, dogs and zombie bears.

 

A better solution, IMO, would've been to have a stamina drain associated with farming. That way your amount of stamina would be the limiting factor. I think they tried to do that in A17 where you had to punch plants to collect them instead of picking them up.

[quyxkh]

My word for the reach issue is "nightmarish". I like that the crawlers especially are nightmarish ♥♥♥♥ers that can hurt you unreasonably.

 

I mean, can everybody agree that unarmed-combat-simulator is not where this game's trying to go? The zeds've got moves you won't see coming. Anybody who's ever fought somebody who's got something on them knows that feeling, there's a fist in your face and you're momentarily distracted by that "where the ♥♥♥♥ did that come from?" trip, which doesn't help, like, at all. Reproducing that feel, that the game can legitimately try for. Doing it with accurate limb and joint and muscle mechanics, not so much.

 

I think my favorite movie scene of all time is in To Have and Have Not, specifically for the line "it's even better when you help."

[meganoth]

What's absurd about "occult radiation?" Hm... Let me ponder that one for a moment. Occult... Radiation.... Magic.

 

Yeah, nothing absurd there.

 

(For the record, I know there's another definition of 'occult.' But that's less funny.)

 

Wake up. You already accepted the occult blood moon, occult zombies with glowing skin, exploding zombies and zombies spitting acid.

 

And we have been in this occult territory for many years now. If you want a "realistic" zombie game, despair, if you want a somewhat Romero-type-realistic zombie game, look elsewhere.

[Boidster]

As far as I know, it was changed to slow down farming.

 

I suppose, but they already had a mechanism for that if they wanted to use it. Just make the A15/16 fertilizer required instead of an optional boost. Alternatively, allow non-fertilized planting, but 50% chance (or whatever would be appropriate) that a non-fertilized seedling would die (and lose the seed) due to the irradiated/contaminated soil. Fertilization reduces that chance to 5% (or whatever). Maybe once they axed fertilizer in A17 they had no easy way to bring it back.

 

I think since I did mod in some small bones/fat/flesh harvesting from zombie corpses (because realism) that I don't fully understand the farm plot struggle. I realism'd our way out of it. We have a good supply of flesh, but precious few seeds. We need to loot some of the feed n seed/farm type POIs I think. And maybe mod the recipe for farm plots to require like 50 flesh and 50 nitrate so I can better empathize.

 

I have slight OCD in crafting/building games, so I admit I do kinda like the neat look of the planter boxes. But the old hoed planting rows looked more realistic.

[Cernwn]

@joeevaristo:

#1 - Agreed, it IS wonky, but check out MeanCloud's Enemy Reach Shortener modlet

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?132019

 

Why would any farmer make pots when there's ground available? It's very immersion-breaking because it doesn't make any logical sense.... the concept is just absurd.

 

#2 - Radiation kills/stunts plants when applied directly, but they adapt to it in the long run, as demonstrated by plants around Chernobyl. However, there are still 2 other types of soil contamination to consider - biological (microorganisms) and chemical. Since the source of the zed outbreak is unknown, it is NOT immersion breaking to think that either of these factors is preventing domesticated plants from fruiting except under very controlled planting conditions...

 

That being said, I would like to see TFP eventually add a more detailed system for hydroponics, animal domestication and food spoilage, but they seem to have other priorities at the moment. In the meantime, try this A18 port of Stasis' FarmLife2 modlet, by psouza4 (scroll down to bottom of the page):

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?104474-FarmLifeMod/page23

[JaxTeller718]

What is so absurd about normal ground being poisoned by some zombie or occult radiation and you need a special process to filter that radiation out. That is the reason you need rotten flesh for it. It sucks out the dangerous stuff (sort of like activated carbon) and then gets thrown away.

 

This entire explanation was absurd man. Youre reaching on this one.

[Roland]

They just need to change all the trees and vegetation to appear stunted and sickly rather than lush and then add the requirement of a greenhouse to the planter boxes....

[SnowDog1942]

They just need to change all the trees and vegetation to appear stunted and sickly rather than lush and then add the requirement of a greenhouse to the planter boxes...

.

 

Stunted and sticky? That reminds me of something I have.

 

Oh, you said sickly, never mind.

[joeevaristo]

I agree with both points. The reach is off and I absolutely hate the new farming mechanic. Not because it's hard or anything like that. The plots are unsightly and I liked the way farms looked before.

 

The usual farmer in our group saw the change and said, "um, don't take this the wrong way, but it's ok if I'm not the farmer this time..." Like you, I don't care about added complexity or difficulty; though for me, I can't get over needing a planter pot instead of the ground.

 

 

"Baseball bat parts" are far, far more silly. As they were adding them to the code I'm surprised a British army Colonel didn't appear in TFP HQ and shout, "STOP THAT! STOP IT, IT'S ENTIRELY TOO SILLY!"

 

ETA: Agree about the zombie reach. I've learned to adapt and can mostly stay within spear reach but outside of zombie arm reach, but they still sometimes hit me from a "WTF?" distance. When they do that, it's shotgun time.

 

I hadn't noticed baseball bat parts. That is pretty ridiculous!

 

To avoid the ridiculous reach, we tend to hunt in groups and make the zombie change focus. But it's annoying.

 

 

As far as I know, it was changed to slow down farming.

 

Once you had a hoe, you could plant a garden of any size.

 

I suppose, but they already had a mechanism for that if they wanted to use it. Just make the A15/16 fertilizer required instead of an optional boost.

 

For me, it's just the box that's the problem. I can think of many ways to achieve their goal that isn't immersion-breaking. We can currently craft a top soil block--why not make that recipe equally expensive and require that for planting?

 

 

My word for the reach issue is "nightmarish". I like that the crawlers especially are nightmarish ♥♥♥♥ers that can hurt you unreasonably.

 

I mean, can everybody agree that unarmed-combat-simulator is not where this game's trying to go? The zeds've got moves you won't see coming. Anybody who's ever fought somebody who's got something on them knows that feeling, there's a fist in your face and you're momentarily distracted by that "where the ♥♥♥♥ did that come from?" trip

 

I don't mind surprises. The problem is that the reach doesn't match the animation: they're hitting beyond the full length of their reach. A surprise is a random hit that you don't commonly see with their animation set; a different type of punch, direction, or combo hit with both hands. The mismatch in reach is just a cheap, cheaty mechanic. That should not be intended functionality.

 

 

@joeevaristo:

#1 - Agreed, it IS wonky, but check out MeanCloud's Enemy Reach Shortener modlet

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?132019

 

Thanks, I'll have a look. I might end up just waiting--since it doesn't match the animations, I'm assuming it's a bug that will eventually be fixed. I can deal with it for the time being. I just wanted to put that feedback out there so it's not missed.

 

 

#2 - Radiation kills/stunts plants when applied directly, but they adapt to it in the long run, as demonstrated by plants around Chernobyl. However, there are still 2 other types of soil contamination to consider - biological (microorganisms) and chemical. Since the source of the zed outbreak is unknown, it is NOT immersion breaking to think that either of these factors is preventing domesticated plants from fruiting except under very controlled planting conditions...

 

That's not a compelling rationalization: you can find crops at varying stages of growth in the world, that are not only as safe to eat as the ones you grow, but are generally the seed source for your crops. If those factors were in play, we shouldn't really be seeing any crops in POIs--especially not as the trader's implied food source in his garden in some versions of the POI. And since you're using the same ground in the planter, it would only make sense if you had to cook the soil before adding nitrate and flesh fertilizer.

 

If, on the other hand, they removed all harvestable crops from POIs and you had to find unplanted pre-apocalypse seeds to start growing crops, using a hydroponic system--sure, I'd believe that. But arbitrarily needing a box to plant? Definitely immersion breaking.

 

 

In the meantime, try this A18 port of Stasis' FarmLife2 modlet, by psouza4 (scroll down to bottom of the page):

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?104474-FarmLifeMod/page23

 

Thanks, I'll have a look!

 

 

They just need to change all the trees and vegetation to appear stunted and sickly rather than lush and then add the requirement of a greenhouse to the planter boxes....

 

Not going to lie, that would be amazing.

[RestInPieces]

Agree. The game could really use better animations and hit detection for both the enemies and the player. If only animations were half as good as Dead Island's...

[Arvelayne]

I'm going to skip point 1, as I'm crap at combat and have no idea if I'm too close, too far away, or just plain slow.

 

As far as the farming thing goes it's been interesting to read the responses, and I always like a good farm in 7DTD.

 

I understand the limits that TFP have put on to farming by making plots, as it was fairly easy to make mega farms that could have fed most of Europe. Also the point that was made about performance in terms of blocks vs terrain I would also agree with.

 

So far no issues.

 

However I can't figure out why people are complaining so much about the use of the plots and how they look. Raised beds have been used everywhere from rural to city settings IRL. It allows you to put your plants literally anywhere legitimately, unlike the bizarre rooftop farms that I've seen in so many YT videos (and made myself, just so you know).

 

For example just down the road from me the people there have put two raised beds on their lawn to allow them to plant without destroying their grass. Looks good to me.

 

However I suppose that the aesthetics of the plots aren't the best, and I don't know off hand if they can be painted. However I tend to surround them with blocks anyway because I like the way that looks.

 

Overall I can see both sides, and I can understand why some farmers are unhappy. However I think it should be given a chance, as it does have a more realistic feel when placed somewhere you wouldn't normally put a farm. And it's a lot easier to tear up and move if the need arises than laying out masses of fertiliser that you wouldn't be able to get back in previous alphas.

 

Arve,

Ho-ho-hoing alt.

[joeevaristo]

However I can't figure out why people are complaining so much about the use of the plots and how they look. Raised beds have been used everywhere from rural to city settings IRL. It allows you to put your plants literally anywhere legitimately, unlike the bizarre rooftop farms that I've seen in so many YT videos (and made myself, just so you know).

 

Consistency, mainly. Pots do make more sense on a rooftop farm. It's just the fact that you can't have a farm on the ground anymore, without pots, that seems silly--especially when there are POIs that do have ground based gardens. You're using the same soil, so it just doesn't make logical sense for your character to create a pot instead of using the ground that's readily available.

 

It would be different if there were apparent in-world reasons for it, other mechanics (like cooking off soil contaminants to create farmable soil), and no POIs with gardens. As it is, it just doesn't make sense.

[arquebus]

I was a bit too busy to play and monitor the changes during experimental this time around, but my group and I just got back into playing. Overall, we really love A18, especially the skills rebalance and new R mechanic, but we've got 2 criticisms we've all agreed on:

 

1. Farm plots: I noticed the feedback on the forum has been mostly positive, but my (very small, for what it's worth) group absolutely hates these. The concept is just silly: being unable to use the ground is just arbitrary. Why would any farmer make pots when there's ground available? It's very immersion-breaking because it doesn't make any logical sense. It would be more reasonable to limit food growth with a fertile ground mechanic, or creating soil required some kind of effort beyond tilling. Even requiring watering and adding irrigation blocks/tools would help to suspend disbelief. I really hope these plots go away, the concept is just absurd.
   

 

The farm plots don't bother me and they don't break immersion for me any more than being able to put a truck in my pocket does, or carrying a forest's worth of trees around in my backpack. The concept for each of these is a hundred times sillier than having specialized soil for growing crops.

 

If you really need to have a "realistic" (real-seeming) explanation for why farm plots are a thing, it's not that hard. The various types of crops that can be planted in any given block require such radically different soils and water ratios in the real world that being able to just plop corn down next to yucca next to blueberries is ridiculous on its face. At least by having farm plots there is the vague hand-wave toward the idea that these are specialized soils, and not just run of the mill tilled ground.

 

The argument that the existence of garden POIs is inconsistent also doesn't hold up, or doesn't hold up enough at any rate. Those gardens aren't mixed-crop. Whatever soil they're using is specific to the crop that was planted, throughout the POI, and is not multipurpose the way farm blocks are. Futhermore, you can't re-plant into those POIs, which suggests that whatever crops were there originally were hanging on by a thread and would have died soon, anyway. But again... it doesn't really matter what the explanation is. Realism and consistency aren't relevant in a game where you can put cars in your pocket.

 

Which is weirder? Carrying a truck and a forest, or specialized farm soils? The argument from immersion is absurd on its face. The fact is some people just don't like the game mechanic, and they're using "suspension of disbelief" and "immersion" as excuses, as if somehow those things trump the gameplay reasons so thoroughly as to require no more discussion on the subject.

[Kalen]

Which is weirder? Carrying a truck and a forest, or specialized farm soils? The argument from immersion is absurd on its face. The fact is some people just don't like the game mechanic, and they're using "suspension of disbelief" and "immersion" as excuses, as if somehow those things trump the gameplay reasons so thoroughly as to require no more discussion on the subject.

 

Why do you assume that people in this thread don't find all 3 of those things immersion breaking?

[HungryZombie]

I was a bit too busy to play and monitor the changes during experimental this time around, but my group and I just got back into playing. Overall, we really love A18, especially the skills rebalance and new R mechanic, but we've got 2 criticisms we've all agreed on:

 

1. Zombie reach: it's really wonky. We can see their hands land in front of us, but still take damage. It feels like many have the same range as a spear, unless there's an actual block as a barrier in between. It's a little frustrating to be consistently hit when leaving a spear's distance in between, especially when it doesn't visually line up with their actual arm reach. Crawlers seem to be the worst culprits.
    
   
2. Farm plots: I noticed the feedback on the forum has been mostly positive, but my (very small, for what it's worth) group absolutely hates these. The concept is just silly: being unable to use the ground is just arbitrary. Why would any farmer make pots when there's ground available? It's very immersion-breaking because it doesn't make any logical sense. It would be more reasonable to limit food growth with a fertile ground mechanic, or creating soil required some kind of effort beyond tilling. Even requiring watering and adding irrigation blocks/tools would help to suspend disbelief. I really hope these plots go away, the concept is just absurd.
    
   Has anyone used mods to revert this functionality yet? I usually like to play vanilla, but I really want to erase only this one thing from my play.
   

 

I agree about the reach. JaxTeller has a mod that reduces it just a pinch.

[joeevaristo]

Which is weirder? Carrying a truck and a forest, or specialized farm soils? The argument from immersion is absurd on its face. The fact is some people just don't like the game mechanic, and they're using "suspension of disbelief" and "immersion" as excuses, as if somehow those things trump the gameplay reasons so thoroughly as to require no more discussion on the subject.

 

I'm not sure you understand how suspension of disbelief works, so I'll take a moment to get you up to speed first. Suspension of disbelief is the concept that permits someone to become immersed in a piece of media. It requires a consistency and logic to hold it together; without it, the person is skeptical, and less invested in the media. They're aware of their consumption, rather than just enjoying it. It doesn't have to be logical in real world terms (Zombies? Herbal medicine actually working?), but immersion does require that it be internally consistent in a way that makes sense. I haven't taught this concept in a while, so I hope you were able to follow adequately.

 

As it applies here, the soil in the pot isn't different from the soil in the ground; you've done nothing to craft this "special soil." Nor is it, as you suggest, different from crop to crop, either. It's just dirt in a box with some fertilizer. It's not internally consistent that the same dirt is useless on the ground, but useful when stuffed in a box. It's not internally consistent with garden POIs. Suggesting that they're just hanging on by a thread in a POI doesn't work as a rationalization, either: those crops aren't being tended, so of course they're hanging on by a thread. And the trader wouldn't maintain his own garden, in dirt, if it wasn't providing him food.

 

Because there's an internal inconsistency, it breaks immersion. That inconsistency needs to be addressed in some way. I'm not particularly invested in whether the solution is reverting to the previous format with tweaks, or making changes elsewhere in the world to hold it together better--you'll find some decent suggestions on changes that would have accomplished their gameplay objective without breaking immersion, within this thread. The mechanic as it is just isn't good.

[meganoth]

I'm not sure you understand how suspension of disbelief works, so I'll take a moment to get you up to speed first. Suspension of disbelief is the concept that permits someone to become immersed in a piece of media. It requires a consistency and logic to hold it together; without it, the person is skeptical, and less invested in the media. They're aware of their consumption, rather than just enjoying it. It doesn't have to be logical in real world terms (Zombies? Herbal medicine actually working?), but immersion does require that it be internally consistent in a way that makes sense. I haven't taught this concept in a while, so I hope you were able to follow adequately.

 

As it applies here, the soil in the pot isn't different from the soil in the ground; you've done nothing to craft this "special soil." Nor is it, as you suggest, different from crop to crop, either. It's just dirt in a box with some fertilizer. It's not internally consistent that the same dirt is useless on the ground, but useful when stuffed in a box. It's not internally consistent with garden POIs. Suggesting that they're just hanging on by a thread in a POI doesn't work as a rationalization, either: those crops aren't being tended, so of course they're hanging on by a thread. And the trader wouldn't maintain his own garden, in dirt, if it wasn't providing him food.

 

Because there's an internal inconsistency, it breaks immersion. That inconsistency needs to be addressed in some way. I'm not particularly invested in whether the solution is reverting to the previous format with tweaks, or making changes elsewhere in the world to hold it together better--you'll find some decent suggestions on changes that would have accomplished their gameplay objective without breaking immersion, within this thread. The mechanic as it is just isn't good.

 

Wait. You were crafting the plots, so the soil could have been filtered, washed, processed in any way imaginable while crafting them. Crafting an electrical drawbridge, an antibiotics pill and crafting a plot from simple ingredients are all done with a simple mouse click in the game, but are only explainable if crafting can be an arbitrarily complex process.

 

I have no good explanation why that processed dirt can't be just dumped on a flat clean roof. On a forest ground I would assume the contamination would spread back in from the surrounding dirt though.

 

And I have no good explanation for food grown in the wild not having adverse effects (at least if you eat them regularily). It would be nice if all you could do with them is create seeds or if they had a much higher food poisoning chance. But the seeds might have not enough of the contamination in them to contaminate the filtered soil or might have been filtered while making the seed

 

PS: The trader is one big heap of internal inconsistency: Everything in the trader compound can't be used or destroyed like it can everywhere else.

[Adam the Waster]

Maybe we can have both the old and the new?

 

 

If you want to have a large farm, maybe you can plant seeds on dirt(only), but for a cost of slower growth due to rads and god knows what in that dirt and somtimes you wont get anything for harvesting it.

 

if you uses a Crop plot, you get none of those effects but for the cost of space and price.

 

and maybe some other stuff to help out. like Sprinklers to help growth and you need water for them.

 

 

 

also maybe some new plants like poppies to make painkillers and other drugs, wheat for you to make bread, fresh sham sandwich and fresh beer, carrots for good meals. and more crops.

 

 

and for hunting animals for food. maybe some wild cows and turkeys to hunt for food.

[mr.natural]

What to say?

 

Madmole has declared the gardening off topic.

And since the soil blocks have changed programming wise it is even hard to impossible to get tilling the soil back as a mod