SURVIVE Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 Well I at first I was enjoying alpha 18's new graphics and lack of lag, my group and I began to notice all the unrealistic new aspects. For instance, I now need to read a book to build something that was previously common sense in a realistic situation. I understand your attempting to make the game longer, and this seems like a step in some aspects in the right direction, but I dont need a book to tell me how to duck tape a flash light to a helmet. Everything is basically locked now and some you have to find multipile books to get. World of warcraft did the same thing. Altering ♥♥♥♥ till its unrecognizable. 15 million to a couple million speaks volumes. Summary: take a look at your current build and see what makes you say "people dont need a book to know this" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limdood Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 I'm a college graduate and teacher for 8 years and I'd be hard pressed to make a functional STONE shovel, or a wood-and-plant-fiber bow with any notable power without a book telling me how to. I know the concepts of a forge, but actually building one would either take me a TON of tries...or detailed directions...like you might find in a book. But since you declined to bother to even say what recipe/item you were talking about, I can only conclude that you feel like whining about the game in a way that you deliberately made difficult to address, to either artificially give your point added weight (if anyone can figure out what the specific complaint IS) or to allow you to act superior as you shoot down any attempted counterargument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niil945 Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 But since you declined to bother to even say what recipe/item you were talking about Wut? but I dont need a book to tell me how to duck tape a flash light to a helmet. I can only conclude that you feel like whining about the game in a way that you deliberately made difficult to address, to either artificially give your point added weight (if anyone can figure out what the specific complaint IS) or to allow you to act superior as you shoot down any attempted counterargument. Or maybe you could, you know, slow down your white knighting and read what he wrote perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmosnuts Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 Wow! Anyone who has played the game is well aware of the issues, basic cooking is one example. Yes more complicated things need books, everyday basic skills do not and thats the same whether or not you are a teacher with a bad attitude! I got his point immediately,you obviously not, not a reason for the given rant in response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katitof Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 Wow! Anyone who has played the game is well aware of the issues, basic cooking is one example. How is that an example? I know at least 2 people who can't even boil an egg properly and I had to rush one of these people to hospital after attempting to make a tea. I know one who firmly believes a pack of chips and a chocolate tablet is called a dinner. I'm not even trying to exaggerate here, people like these exist and since game is placed in amerika, probability to be one of them grows exponentially. Don't underestimate humanity ability to be John Snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 Well I at first I was enjoying alpha 18's new graphics and lack of lag, my group and I began to notice all the unrealistic new aspects. For instance, I now need to read a book to build something that was previously common sense in a realistic situation. I understand your attempting to make the game longer, and this seems like a step in some aspects in the right direction, but I dont need a book to tell me how to duck tape a flash light to a helmet. Everything is basically locked now and some you have to find multipile books to get. World of warcraft did the same thing. Altering ♥♥♥♥ till its unrecognizable. 15 million to a couple million speaks volumes. Summary: take a look at your current build and see what makes you say "people dont need a book to know this" While I agree with you that taping a torch to a helmet seems like something anyone could do without an instruction manual, I disagree with you that it matters. This being a game (about zombies no less), realism is a more or less foreign concept in and of itself. What matters is thematic consistency, that is, does the game mechanic (whatever one we choose to look at) make sense within the wider game systems, and on this count the "helmet light mod" makes sense, giving all other mods require some method of "learning". Is it realistic? No, and that makes it different to the forge schematic say, since most people (myself included) couldn't possibly build one (that works) without reading up on how to do it, but that difference just doesn't matter. It's a gameplay mechanic, and the crucial point there is "game", since 7Days isn't a simulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazeree Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 While I agree with you that taping a torch to a helmet seems like something anyone could do without an instruction manual, I disagree with you that it matters. This being a game (about zombies no less), realism is a more or less foreign concept in and of itself. What matters is thematic consistency, that is, does the game mechanic (whatever one we choose to look at) make sense within the wider game systems, and on this count the "helmet light mod" makes sense, giving all other mods require some method of "learning". Is it realistic? No, and that makes it different to the forge schematic say, since most people (myself included) couldn't possibly build one (that works) without reading up on how to do it, but that difference just doesn't matter. It's a gameplay mechanic, and the crucial point there is "game", since 7Days isn't a simulation. THIS. Its a game. It becomes fun with a certain balance of GAME MECHANICS. Stop with your 'realism' argument. If you want to use realistic examples to win an argument, do it in the real world where it needs it. Back to your example: The light mod comes from the original mining helmet. In previous alphas, the only thing that had light on your headgear was finding the all purpose, gotta-have-it mining helmet. In one alpha, I dont even think you could craft one. If you wanted to see in the dark, you had to carry a torch or a (working) flashlight. In Alpha 17 they introduced the light mod and now you can have a better armor rating and still have the light. And now your asking for it to be a day 1 gimme. Forget your reasoning, your basically whining you want the game pandered to you, which is what most people are complaining they do to much of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warmer Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 I'm a college graduate and teacher for 8 years and I'd be hard pressed to make a functional STONE shovel, or a wood-and-plant-fiber bow with any notable power without a book telling me how to. I know the concepts of a forge, but actually building one would either take me a TON of tries...or detailed directions...like you might find in a book. ^ exactly. Building something that LOOKS like a tool vs. building a FUNCTIONAL tool is a very different task. What is funny is "common sense" object building came from somewhere. Either a book or video someone watched. If it was a COMMON sense as people assume. Chimps would have functional stone axes and stone shovels vs sharp sticks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gronk Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 ^ exactly. Building something that LOOKS like a tool vs. building a FUNCTIONAL tool is a very different task. What is funny is "common sense" object building came from somewhere. Either a book or video someone watched. If it was a COMMON sense as people assume. Chimps would have functional stone axes and stone shovels vs sharp sticks. To be fair chimps put quite a lot of thought into choosing the correct stick, preparing it, and often do a better job of using it than the zoologists who study them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURVIVE Posted December 14, 2019 Author Share Posted December 14, 2019 Hmmm guess I've been spoiled by common sense and knowledge. I apologize for my rant, but come on this is ridiculous. How about working on satisfying gameplay so all the new stuff thats now locked seems worth getting to. 7 days originally seemed like a Macgyver's paradise apocalypse, and now it seems like you gave macgyver stage 4 dementia. Maybe your trying to make this game with 5 players in mind but most of us are smaller groups. In the mean time RAFT just added rudders because people complained "I can build a forge and not a rudder?" P.S. if your a college graduate and can accumulate your knowledge to build a simple forge, what did you take, liberal arts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard puke Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 P.S. if your college graduate and can accumulate your knowledge to build a simple forge, what did you take, liberal arts? "If your" trying to come across as intellectually superior while simultaneously insulting creative people by implying they can't be intelligent maybe you should learn to write a sentence that isn't verbal diarrhea first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2n1 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 How is that an example? I know at least 2 people who can't even boil an egg properly and I had to rush one of these people to hospital after attempting to make a tea. I know one who firmly believes a pack of chips and a chocolate tablet is called a dinner. I'm not even trying to exaggerate here, people like these exist and since game is placed in amerika, probability to be one of them grows exponentially. Don't underestimate humanity ability to be John Snow. Yes, indeed, this exists in reality, but there is one inconsistency - such people are unlikely to be among the survivors. Well, if only in Hollywood dreams The rest of the people whose hands do not grow out of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s - all of this seems absurd nonsense. From here - all this talk Also, developers need to keep it all within bounds, wat would it not enter into dissonance, and did not slide into delirium on a subjective level. And of course, you do not need to offend a neurosurgeon who does not know how to make yourself soup. But i'm sure if the situation is, he will be able to make the soup and the socket to fix without a schematic... Any normally developed person should be able to cook an egg and attach a flashlight, in a special situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURVIVE Posted December 15, 2019 Author Share Posted December 15, 2019 Why are you insulted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Man Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 Hey OP, realism comments aside, there definitely are some balancing that is still needed in some areas (e.g. crafting vs looting) but strongly disagree that A18 is "1 step forward, 2 back" Game is much more fun as a sum of its parts for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmosnuts Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 It says everything that there are grown adults who cannot work out how to cook an egg! Todays world is just catered toward doing everything for the poor lil darlings. As is a game hand holding you through so you dont face any "difficulties". Movie plots are dumbed down to keep the attention from wandering. How long before boo-boo autobandaging comes in and a man in a gyro comes in to build a base for you? Surely to god there has to be some common sense somewhere, doesnt there? I mean at least assume a BASIC level of intelligence and cut down on needless recipes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURVIVE Posted December 15, 2019 Author Share Posted December 15, 2019 Agreed. One of the reasons I like ARK: SE is the world to explore and creatures to discover and eventually tame. Another plus it has is its not mercilessly punishing people for having less then 4 members, which with this alpha TFP seem to have done. I dont SP on 7days because it quickly becomes a snooze fest. This really is a MP game at its core, pulling together all the stuff you find at the beginning, gathering resources to give to the architect, making a small base that evolves into an impenetrable fortess (thanks to the new block design) and ultimately thriving in the apocalypse together. Now it would seem you need to invest in all 5 trees to make every weapon, essentially eliminating a role the engineer/science tree gave. I've come to the conclusion that TFP needs to decide if common sense is going to be apart of the game or not. Ited make sense in ARK if I didn't know a damn thing because I was just born, but in 7 days, I survived the first or second stage of the apocalypse which would mean I previously had plenty of opportunity to learn just about anything. If this is the way you intend the game to be, then at least set the story around you got hit in the head or something and now have amnesia. My second and much, MUCH more popular option is a selectable role, for example, that gives you a boost to the skills you had before the apokilisk (duck dynasty reference) like an engineer would have boosts to electrical or building skills and a neurosurgeon to use someones comment to improve medical and medicinal skills. You guys should play a game for 21 days between 4 peeps and see what most of us are dealing with. The graphics are great, time for gameplay tuning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 My second and much, MUCH more popular option is a selectable role, for example, that gives you a boost to the skills you had before the apokilisk (duck dynasty reference) like an engineer would have boosts to electrical or building skills and a neurosurgeon Popular with who? I'd hate the idea of character "classes" in 7Days and it would be something I'd immediately mod out if it were introduced. As a purely SP player, not only do I completely disagree with your assessment that we need to skill into all 5 trees to be viable, but the game being classless allows my game to develop over time, at least partially depending on what I find and feel like as I play through. Set classes would impede that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadesOfKnight Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 How is that an example? I know at least 2 people who can't even boil an egg properly and I had to rush one of these people to hospital after attempting to make a tea. You left off the obvious bit at the end: "... and these people would NOT be the PCs of this game." - - - Updated - - - THIS. Its a game. It becomes fun with a certain balance of GAME MECHANICS. Fair enough. Now explain how a book to learn how to duct tape a flashlight to a helmet is consistent with the same game mechanics that allow us to make an iron pickaxe but not a baseball bat (a.k.a. a pickaxe handle). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liesel Weppen Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Fair enough. Now explain how a book to learn how to duct tape a flashlight to a helmet is consistent with the same game mechanics that allow us to make an iron pickaxe but not a baseball bat (a.k.a. a pickaxe handle). That is exactly what he wanted to tell you. It's NOT about realism and not necessarily even about logic, it's a game mechanic! And the mechanic is choosen in a sense of balance. If a baseball bat is a better weapon than a club, there needs to be a prerequisit needed to craft a baseball bat, otherwise there would be no reason left why a wooden club should even exist. And from what you said: Whats a better weapon? A pickaxe or a pickaxe handle without the pickaxe head aka baseball bat? So from your point of view and realism the pickaxe should be a better combat weapon then a baseball bat? In regards of the baseball bat and pickaxe handle... you probably would use a simple grown wooden stick as a pickaxe handle. A basball bat on the other hand is carved with a lathe so it is well balanced. If a baseball bat is not crafted like this, it's just a wooden club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadesOfKnight Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 That is exactly what he wanted to tell you. It's NOT about realism and not necessarily even about logic, it's a game mechanic! And the mechanic is choosen in a sense of balance. "It's not about logic, it's about balance." Because you can have balance without any underlying logic? I'm sorry, but that doesn't hold up. Game mechanics - indeed, balance - depend on logic. A lathe is an excellent example! Instead of scavenging the world for "baseball bat parts," how hard would it be to build a lathe (or is that part of a workbench)??? One makes NO sense... one DOES. Only one is a game mechanic, or balanced, or even logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dregonazure Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 "It's not about logic, it's about balance." Because you can have balance without any underlying logic? I'm sorry, but that doesn't hold up. Game mechanics - indeed, balance - depend on logic. A lathe is an excellent example! Instead of scavenging the world for "baseball bat parts," how hard would it be to build a lathe (or is that part of a workbench)??? One makes NO sense... one DOES. Only one is a game mechanic, or balanced, or even logical. Well, looking at it logically, a zombie apocalypse would never happen. Therefore then the only way for them to make this game follow logic is to remove zombies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liesel Weppen Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I'm sorry, but that doesn't hold up. Game mechanics - indeed, balance - depend on logic. Not necessarily. A lathe is an excellent example! Instead of scavenging the world for "baseball bat parts," how hard would it be to build a lathe (or is that part of a workbench)??? One makes NO sense... one DOES. Only one is a game mechanic, or balanced, or even logical. Even it is built in just a workbench, it requires a workbench and still a SKILL to USE a lathe. But it does not necessarily for a pickaxe grip. You can try using a lathe without any knowledge... if you doing it wrong, be happy if you just loose a hand but doesn't kill you. Logic and people having no idea what they are talking about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 As a purely SP player, not only do I completely disagree with your assessment that we need to skill into all 5 trees to be viable I agree. We are in fact forced to put all our points in Str and Int when playing solo - or at least I am. If I want to be remotely efficient. Int because you cannot rely on blueprints dropping and you need to tech at least to a vehicle for efficient map traversal and trader runs, and - if playing on a high difficulty and not exploiting - you probably need Steel asap. Not to mention Lucky Looter and Better Barter if you want decent gear early and early easy food. Str because unless you are going to play nomad, you need to gather a crap-ton of Stone early for early concrete. You need a lot more concrete than before to get a decent base up. And mining without a ton of points in Miner69er and Mother Lode is super-inefficient. I only very rarely put any point in the other trees, because I feel I can't, without a huge loss of efficiency (for my playstyle, which is to get to Insane level with a fortress base asap). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmosnuts Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Well, looking at it logically, a zombie apocalypse would never happen. Therefore then the only way for them to make this game follow logic is to remove zombies. In case you hadn't noticed, they are in the process of doing just that. The world is now in a , more or less zombieless state! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pr00ch Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 "one step forward two steps back" seems to be TFP's motto ever since A17. Progression still is worse than A16, and that's even ignoring the lack of Learn-by-Doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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