This game has really lost a lot of the fun.

[WhamyKaBlamy]

I'm sure there's been tons of posts like this in the past, but I feel like I have to add my voice to the feedback. I've played the game since alpha 2-point-something (before it went over to steam), and what's made me want to write this out is it was more fun then than it is now.

 

Before all of the cool things that were introduced and the new mechanics and all that jazz, it was more fun to be dropped somewhere randomly in the Navzone, frantically try to get yourself together some resources and build up a base for the night. The main reason for that, in my eyes at least, was that I had something to do the whole time. If I died it was while I was running from zombies, or I didn't get to a house in time, or I didn't defend it well enough, but the thing is I could fight and defend at night even as a freshly spawned player. Even if I was out at night and got caught out, I could potentially throw out some light sources and fight the zombies. Yes, they came at me constantly, but that was the fun - building ways to deal with that constant onslaught of zombies, exending my light perimeter so I could work at night, having something to do the whole time.

 

But with the state of the game currently I spend the night basically sitting there doing nothing, because the tiniest amount of work in my makeshift base will cause zombies to turn up. And it's not like when the zombies turn up I can deal with them - if that were the case it would be great fun - but if I haven't managed to loot some awesome weapon out of pure chance then I'm boned. That was bad enough in the last 5 builds where I could at least sit there all night crafting up my tools and weapons so they got more powerful and I could at least deal with the zombies a lot more efficiently the next day. What can I do like that in the current build? Smack rocks all night and hope I don't get detected? That's boring, dull and frustrating on a whole new level.

 

There's the same issue when it comes to the daytime as well. In the current save I'm working on I put my first skill points into my ability to use spears and it made a sum total of crap-all difference. It still took me up to 10 smacks to the head to kill a zombie. Dropping them to the ground gave me nowhere near enough time to do a double-tap style finisher, and even if I did manage to get to them in the 3 nanoseconds before they stood up it makes no difference. Once again, unless I get lucky with some RNG, the combat is slow, boring and frustrating. Finding something to loot and having to walk backwards for 5 minutes while repeatedly stabbing zombies in the face is not fun. Why would you think it is? I've tried clubs, bows, spears, all the weapons I can make early game and it's the same. Bows are marginally better but completely hampered by the need to get feathers, so you end up with one of the other two eventually anyway.

 

On top of all of this we still have the same need to progress through skills to be able to make the tools to kill them more efficiently, while still needing RNG drops to get there. Want to build a forge to make iron? You'll need an iron pipe to do that! Oh, and leather for bellows, despite the fact you're literally making entire houses out of wood, and clothes out of fibers without any sort of training. Nope, you need leather, duct tape and pipes, better get out there collecting and fighting those zombies like a geriatric.

 

Seriously, this game needs to decide what it wants to be. Is it going for realism or arcade? If it's realism then give us an accurate way to build tools, weapons and crafting stations. I'm looking around the room that this PC is in and I have a metal ruler next to me, several screwdrivers on a shelf, 2 rolls of selotape, a pool cue and various other bits and pieces that I could easily fashion into a weapon. In 30 minutes I could sharpen that ruler into a point and tape it to the pool cue - boom, metal spear capable of piercing a zombie's skull. If you're going for realism them why can't I do cool stuff like that? Rather than finding a tin can and some paper in the entirety of a house. Really? I'm pretty sure that in most houses you'd find the stuff to be tooled up and deal with one or two zombies. Nor would said zombies be able to tear through brick walls in a few smacks.

 

If you're going for arcade, then why is it so long and laborious to get weapons, to kill zombies, to advance? Sure, if you're going down that route I might not be able to get a decent weapon quickly, I might be stuck with stone tools, but I should still have the option of being a bonifide badass with them.

 

Either way, the game feels like it's stuck in some middle ground where the challenge of the game is basically how long can you hold out before getting bored and uninstalling it. I'm fine with having to hide away from zombies that I have no chance of defeating until late game, if I have something to do until late game. Similarly I'm fine it not being realistic, having to go and loot a gabllion things and zombies to try and find good weapons and parts if I can actually kill said zombies and explore with my primitive stuff. At the moment I can do neither and it's not fun. I can't see myself playing this game again for the forseeable future, and that makes me sad because I love(d) this game.

 

I'm aware that a lot of the issues that I'm highlighting here are early game, and that it does get better later in the game, but I just can't bring myself to grin and bear through it at the moment. I'm at the point of starting to make electrical traps, etc, on my current main save and I just can't do any more slow, boring grinding. Sure, zombies die quicker, but the having to manage heat, still not being able to truly do things at night, still being reliant on RNG and not being caught by a horde.. on top of the frustration with starting the save it's just marred my enjoyment.

 

I'm sorry if anyone took offense to this, but it needed to be said in my opinion. I'm sure lots of people disagree, and that's cool. Have a fantastic day whoever reads this

[DeadGerry]

There are a lot of threads like this, and I know your feedback will be welcome - though not necessarily useful. There are lots of threads and youtubers who investigate and explain the news systems, and I feel you've maybe not done your homework. A VERY critical way of putting this is that 'you want to play the game one specific way, and you're annoyed you can't' - but perhaps more diplomatically, you're not exploring the options, and might enjoy yourself more if you did.

 

You can't assemble a base on the first day. Well, you can, but it won't be very good - for exactly the reason you're mentioning; it's unrealistic for a person to just be dropped and be able to assemble a fort. More realistic is that you find somewhere on day one to barricade for the first night, and from there it's up to you if you go looting, questing or harvesting; and using or selling what you find to focus on either building, levelling or getting stuff.

 

They all have pro's and cons. the more time you spend building, the less items you'll have. The more you seek items the less time you'll have to build. Managing how you spend your time is a bigger part of the game now. Personal experience; you don't need to build a base for the first or even the 2nd horde night; and by the 3rd or 4th you'll have plenty of time to have levelled up your skills, gathered the materials and can make something quickly once you have.

 

There are now tougher spawns at night, as many many players, once they got their first headlight or gun light, have little to fear at night - but it's still up to you how you use your time - you can focus on getting lights, weapons and stuff so you can go out at night, you can mine, you can barricade or sit it out, as you choose, but RNG is a big part of the game and if you're unlucky, you're unlucky - but my experience is that if you 'can't' do anything at night you aren't preparing right to be able to - I've spent nights out, mining and barricading, and rarely run into a situation I can't escape from - but that's because my base has spikes round it by the first night, and any random zed's either die on the spikes, or die when I let them in - haven't had more than 3 zeds at once yet, except when mining - and the junk turret - set up outside the door -has taken care of them without me having to face them, unless I choose to.

 

You also have the choice to have them running, jogging or even just walking at night - maybe you need to tone it down for the first few days until you get settled?

 

The spear is a mixed bag - stone spears are, as first tier weapons, poor. Iron are better, steel are best. You're not gonna be killing zed's EASILY until you either perk up more or get the higher tier spears - and even then they are MUCH better thrown than as melee. Two stone spears to the head ought to kill regular zeds, and a single Iron bulls-eye can kill them, providing you practice,perk in and get better spears. Personally I have 3 spears in my hotbar, only use them as missiles, and have another melee weapon for finishing them off.

 

Even un-perked a stone sledge hammer and spears are sufficient, if used optimally. If you choose not to use them optimally, you're gonna have to perk heavily. Tools, weapons and suchlike are meant to balance across a long game - the stuff you can make on day 1 isn't meant to be great - encouraging you to perk, find better stuff and try out other options.

 

Perked and with iron tools, I find 2 spears and a melee are sufficient, and if I get steel or perk in further I'd expect to start one shot killing things.

 

Again, you've already noted the reason - an average person would not be able to make great stuff nor use it well on day one - you're more likely to have good results FINDING better tools, and learning how to make them later as you progress.

 

You can find these items, tools and weapons by looting, buying or doing quests, or can make them by finding schematics or by perking. Perking is the least optimal, but it's you who is choosing to do it the least optimal way.

 

If you think you can sellotape a spear together capable of breaching a skull, I think you're very optimistic. Bone is hard, skulls are curved; and you need to destroy the central cortex to kill a zed. Good luck!

 

The game is trying to balance many competing factors to suit multiple play styles and single / multiplayer; both PVE and PVP. It's a lot, and the progress is difficult. What works for one may weaken the others, and vice versa - but what this alpha is doing is giving you lots of options to explore, and it seems you are choosing not to explore them. I'm afraid that's on you.

 

Get yourself a sledge, 2 or 3 spears and practice throwing them. Go looting small buildings (almost ALL of them now have guns, ammo and medical supplies, as well as food.) Do some quests, do some trading. Spike up a small POI and stay there for the first week. Consider crafting to be a skill that needs time, perks and leveling to get good at, and accept that you'll find significantly better stuff in the world than you can make for the early game.

 

If you find working forges, workstations and chem stations, mark them on your map and use them until you find the schematics and materials to make your own.

 

Everything now takes longer to do, and invincible bases that auto kill hordes are a thing of the past - get better at the early combat and loot; you'll find better weapons and tools as you go; and watch a couple of you tubers like Kage848 (set in his style, but good teacher), gameedged (chaotic and gets al ot wrong, but you'll learn a lot as he tries lots of crazy things), Glock9 (not quite as entertaining, but really talks through what he's doing), Neebsgaming (VERY silly, but might give you a better ability to laugh at the disasters which befall you) and paulsoaresjr (likes to explore the oprions available).

 

I hear you, and you're not exactly wrong - but there appear to be many options that you are simply choosing not to explore.

[Ac75]

 

Seriously, this game needs to decide what it wants to be. Is it going for realism or arcade? )

 

I agree on the level its absolutely unsure if it want's to be realistic or arcadey - Whats been done since even A16 shows that.

[ZombieSurvivor]

I agree on the level its absolutely unsure if it want's to be realistic or arcadey - Whats been done since even A16 shows that.

 

A growing child 1 year might have a thought about what they want to be when they get older. Another year it could change. Same goes for a game alpha game and its actually part of the contract you agreed to when purchasing this game. Things are bound to change....

 

P.S. I wanted to jump in here and talk but man.... that wall of text. I just cannot bring myself to read it.

So I'll leave saying this. A17 killed all the fun A18 brought most of it back, at least for me anyways.

[Ghostlight]

P.S. I wanted to jump in here and talk but man.... that wall of text. I just cannot bring myself to read it.

So I'll leave saying this. A17 killed all the fun A18 brought most of it back, at least for me anyways.

 

I just don't get this comment. A17 and A18 are extremely similar. What changed in A18 that returned this fun? Level gates on perks?? That's really the only major difference. I mean I do absolutely agree with you that A17 killed all the fun, but to me it's still dead. And A18 just killed more of it (e.g Demolishers, removal of farming etc)

[ZombieSurvivor]

Well looting has always been a huge part of the game. A17 killed looting because of they they changed and removed. A18 brought all that back thus its fun again. I'm strictly talking from the way I play and not the tons of other ways to play and find fun.

[quyxkh]

dropped somewhere randomly in the Navzone, frantically try to get yourself together some resources and build up a base[…]I had something to do the whole time. If I died it was while I was running from zombies, or I didn't get to a house in time, or I didn't defend it well enough

It's still that way. It's just harder. The nights are _much_ scarier now, you have to really know your stuff to waltz around at night early. I've been playing a long time now but I generally suck at combat games, so I'm still not there, but I know what needs improving and after a few levels I can explore at night if I can manage to summon a stretch of A-game play.

 

 

I could potentially throw out some light sources and fight the zombies. Yes, they came at me constantly, but that was the fun - building ways to deal with that constant onslaught of zombies, extending my light perimeter so I could work at night, having something to do the whole time. But with the state of the game currently I spend the night basically sitting there doing nothing

A18 should have come with a tagline: "The night is terrifying again." If you're stuck in a throwaway base, yeah, you screwed up or got colossally unlucky, cower there for the night and ponder your choices in the apocalypse. But if you know what you can do, and you have a plan (complete with plan B and maybe even plan C) for testing limits, you can rock. Just don't think you can play purely reactively and thrive.

 

Smack rocks all night and hope I don't get detected? That's boring, dull and frustrating on a whole new level.

If you're reduced to plan C, see above: you screwed up or got colossally unlucky, but at some point you're going to want a forge. I kinda suck at this game so don't take this as gospel or anything, but for your first six perk points try pete, trex, 69er, cardio, chef, forge. Generally by the second night I'm lvl3 or 4, have my early-game-POI base cleaned and patched, and I've been running nonstop for hours. A nice shaft-digging dance is a good time to think about what I'm going to do next, even just a stone axe can dig 30m down in a night. Handy tip: you can skip a block with your ladders, dig straight down 2m, have the ladders one mousewheel away from the axe, so it's dig a block dig a block tick plop down tick repeat. Get your facing right and it doesn't even take any attention, build 20 ladders to start and you'll be 30+m down when you run out even with some goofs. It's like the morning ritual, you're not thinking about what you're doing, you're thinking about the day or your kid or whatever.

 

There's the same issue when it comes to the daytime as well. In the current save I'm working on I put my first skill points into my ability to use spears and it made a sum total of crap-all difference.

 

I like clubs for the first few weeks. When they made the hits range sensitive I did a fair bit of private nerd-raging until I figured it out, for anybody who keeps comparing all melee combat to Warband's it's just ridiculously arbitrary (what, they can get inside on you but you can't shove them away?!??) but they're working on it, hard and nonstop, and while the mechanics are hard to discover I'm back to enjoying even the earliest melee again now, fights are generally fast and furious and even one miss is bad news. Every so often a zed will get particularly fast or buff or lucky or God help me all three, and I have to always, always be on top of my game. That meets my particular definition of fun.

 

while still needing RNG drops to get there. Want to build a forge to make iron? You'll need an iron pipe to do that! Oh, and leather for bellows

Okay, I'm done. If you haven't noticed how to get short iron pipes and leather and cloth, and bones for the glue for duct tape, you are simply not paying attention. At all. This is a post-apocalyptic survival game, did you really think role playing some methed-up Captain oblivious would be the right approach? It's not.

[Hollowprime]

A16:

Pros:

You have the stamina of a normal human being.

Stupid zombies walk in a straight lines.

Scrap food 24/7 or turn into cannibalism

Rewarding farming

Zombies get progressively stronger, bases need constant resupply

ALL mining tools are amazing

Level by doing

Build huge bases end game

 

Cons:

Spikes break zombie legs

Gamebreaking trader and minibike bugs

Multiplayer lags when collapses occur

 

A17:

Pros:

Power attacks

Quests solve the problem of destroyed POIs

 

Cons:

Game lags

Level gating

You have the stamina of a diabetic

You build insanely slow

Horrible fps

Fake block graphics

Multiplayer becomes unplayable

Zombies have A* pathfinding algorithm, can dig through ground.

 

A18:

Pros:

Better graphics

M60

 

Cons:

Abysmal fps

Horrific performance

Loot gating (steel requires schematics and steel parts)

Fisher price building (iron into junk turret bullets)

Demolishers that defeat the purpose of turrets

The most incomprehensible perk system in a video game ever.

Paper melee weapons, bullet sponge zombies

Fake melee animations, never hit what you aim

Trader still hides his best stuff, then sells them at absurd prices

 

The devs haven't even finished balancing A18 and they even started talking A19.

 

I'd personally like to see the devs completely stop adding new stuff and focus on fixing what's already in the game:

 

Things that need to be fixed:

Horrible FPS performance

The loot gating system

The horribly grouped perks

Zombie AI needs to go back to stupid levels and be unable to dig

Lootable zombies

Easier farming

Harder food management

[BobTheBard]

I agree on the level its absolutely unsure if it want's to be realistic or arcadey - Whats been done since even A16 shows that.

 

This is my biggest issue with it right now. While I'm sure the devs have a consistent direction in mind for the game's future, it sure doesn't feel like it after A16->A18. That said, I think both A16 and A18 make good points to settle down with the big changes and refine the formula, with A16 making the base of a good survival game and A18 the base for a good action zombie game.

[Hellsmoke]

A VERY critical way of putting this is that 'you want to play the game one specific way, and you're annoyed you can't

 

It's pretty insulting to make that assumption. This game is in the alpha stages and has went through many changes so that the game play feels very different from one alpha version to another. It's not that people want to play the game one way, it's that they buy the game and learn to love it and then it changes. They then adapt and it changes again and on it goes. I personally like the current state but we did lose a lot of the feeling that the older versions gave us so it's perfectly normal that some are not happy with the current state of the game. This could easily change in an alpha or two later but it's just a fact of life with games like this where you get to experience the development. The devs need the freedom to experiment and try new things and some of those ideas don't work, others are amazing.

 

To those who don't like the current version the best advice would be stick around and have patience, nothing is written in stone and all feedback is important. I'm sure the end product will be amazing, I have no doubts there.

[Bubo]

I sympathize with you Whamy, and I look at it this way..

 

I like to imagine they stopped at 16, and 18 is the beginning of a Part II.

 

We can still play the older versions (and the modding community is wonderful) so save them while you can.

 

Red Eagle LXIX's Guide: How-To download almost every past Steam version of 7 Days To Die from Steam

[Ghostlight]

The nights are _much_ scarier now, you have to really know your stuff to waltz around at night early. I've been playing a long time now but I generally suck at combat games, so I'm still not there, but I know what needs improving and after a few levels I can explore at night if I can manage to summon a stretch of A-game play.

 

OMG I could not disagree more! This is the first alpha since A14 that I just go about my normal business at night. There are so few zombies around in general that nights are not frightening at all any more.

[quyxkh]

OMG I could not disagree more! This is the first alpha since A14 that I just go about my normal business at night. There are so few zombies around in general that nights are not frightening at all any more.

 

Once you've got armor and reasonable weapons, maybe a headlamp, sure. I did say "early", I wouldn't want to try it without at least padded armor and an iron club. Graphics options matter too, my nights get _dark_ when the moon's hidden.

[Glaston]

I just don't get this comment. A17 and A18 are extremely similar. What changed in A18 that returned this fun? Level gates on perks?? That's really the only major difference. I mean I do absolutely agree with you that A17 killed all the fun, but to me it's still dead. And A18 just killed more of it (e.g Demolishers, removal of farming etc)

 

A18 is much more fun than A17.

I never got past day 21 in A17, I got bored and restarted. A17 I put in less than 200 hours, even Ravenhearst/War of the Walkers and the other MODS just couldnt make it any more appealing.

 

A18 I now actually get up to a day count that I havent done since A15

500 hours in A18 and still going strong.

[DeadGerry]

It's pretty insulting to make that assumption.

 

I phrased it more diplomatically in the next sentence, but I feel I justified it with the point by point explanation which followed and showed that the OP had chosen to play the way which was frustrating them, and their complaint was 95% them not knowing how to play.

 

I gave plenty of constructive feedback on ways around it, but I am comfortable with my assertion, based on what the OP wrote and what has followed.

 

So many people claiming that they game is designed to force them to play one way, when a little digging makes it clear that the problem is the game has given them tonnes of options but they want to just play it the one way and are butt hurt that they can't.

 

Alpha 16 was great - but it was FAR from perfect - repetitive towns, poor roads, too easy to tech up on day one and have an invincible base and endless farm by the end of week one, and traders providing all the ammo you could ever need. To what end? So you can hop on a minibike and tour the map blowing things to pieces with your many guns and ammo?

 

You could literally concrete up a base, surround it with wooden spikes in week 1, add a few gun turrets in week 2 and never have to fight or fear a horde ever again for the rest of the game.

 

Almost every legitimate and intelligently framed constructive criticism that I've read on this forum is answered by devs with either ' 'yeah, we're tweaking that' 'yeah we're gonna overhaul that' ' that's just a placeholder for now' or 'here's why that is the way it is and it's unlikely to change'.

 

Almost every unanswered criticism always comes down to 'I want the game to work this way and it doesn't, please change everything for me.' or 'I really liked a previous version better, but don't want to have to play and older version, please change everything for me.' or 'I completely failed to understand how early access works, and that's the Devs problem.'

 

If people make reasonable points, or ask reasonable questions, then there's lots of room for those discussions; but too many over dramatic cries of 'crafting is dead!' 'melee is dead' 'the game is dead' when what they mean is 'aw crap, now I need to re-learn some things, make a mod, find a mod or roll it back.'

 

Whatever line you take, it's a road lined with options which you chose to take or not to take.

[AtomicUs5000]

Before [...] I could fight and defend at night even as a freshly spawned player. [...] But with the state of the game currently I spend the night basically sitting there doing nothing, because the tiniest amount of work in my makeshift base will cause zombies to turn up. And it's not like when the zombies turn up I can deal with them -

 

This was hard for me at first, but then I realized it's not all that bad. When night comes, it's like some zombies will spawn in the area around you immediately. One of them is likely to be a feral. I purposely take them out right away and I can usually go about the night those first few days working on the base. The feral is the only real worry. I just throw down a couple spike traps to weaken them and club them. Often they will get a couple good hits on me, but I stand my ground and expect to heal right away. After they are gone, I don't bother trying to be quiet. Rarely another zombie might come in the night and even more rarely another feral. Trust me, just stand your ground and take them out.

 

 

There's the same issue when it comes to the daytime as well [...] I put my first skill points into my ability to use spears [...] the combat is slow, boring and frustrating [...] I've tried clubs, bows, spears, all the weapons I can make early game and it's the same.

 

I found the same results. However, what works best for me is that you mix things up and utilize each of the primitive weapons to their best use case. You see a zombie in the distance, get a couple shots in with the bow, once it's a few meters away, throw a stone spear (always throw... don't worry about losing it), and once it's a meter away, power attack club it. By then, they almost always fall. Final blow to the head with a club. Works for me every time, and I don't decide which weapon I am going to specialize in until after the first week.

 

 

On top of all of this we still have the same need to progress through skills to be able to make the tools to kill them more efficiently, while still needing RNG drops to get there.

 

You don't have to kill any zombies or loot POIs to get all the non-weapon stuff. All of the basics are in garbage and cars. You can easily get some starter weapons by doing level 1 buried supplies trader quests and cashing in your rewards. At least to the point where you can start looting small POIs comfortably. Even without the quests, there are plenty of tiny POIs with 1 or 2, sometimes no zombies. This is where I usually find a pistol or something.

 

 

Seriously, this game needs to decide what it wants to be. Is it going for realism or arcade?

If those are the only two choices, I can guarantee the game will not be about realism. It isn't and won't be. Hyper-realism is far too complex, and frankly, not much fun. The game is definitely more action than survival these days, but I wouldn't go so far to say that will be strictly arcade. It can't be. The combination of voxels, a huge loot table, fully destructible terrain, the quests, the minimal survival aspects, the electricity system, etc are all very unlike an arcade game.

 

 

I'm aware that a lot of the issues that I'm highlighting here are early game

 

That is my favorite part of the game. I start over every single alpha experimental build just to go through the struggles of the first days. It's the only moment I have fear. It's the only moment I feel that this is the survival game it is intended to be.

[Ghostlight]

DeadGerry, your assumptions about A16 are not quite true. The problem was simply balance. A16 gamestage did not rise quickly enough, that's the bottom line. It is true that most people could build a mighty "invincible" fortress quite early on and have maxed out weapons/firepower. Problem was that gamestage did not keep up with them. It was an arms race that the zombies always lost. Players therefore tended to quit their map and declare the game "won", and also that it was too easy. However if you persevered in A16 and let gamestage catch up with you, the horde kicked arse and was an absolutely amazing fight. Sadly it took day 150+ (~gamestage 4000) for this to happen, so few players saw it. But for those of us who went there, the experience was far superior to anything you'd ever see in A17 or later.

[Hellsmoke]

I phrased it more diplomatically in the next sentence, but I feel I justified it with the point by point explanation which followed and showed that the OP had chosen to play the way which was frustrating them, and their complaint was 95% them not knowing how to play.

 

I gave plenty of constructive feedback on ways around it, but I am comfortable with my assertion, based on what the OP wrote and what has followed.

 

So many people claiming that they game is designed to force them to play one way, when a little digging makes it clear that the problem is the game has given them tonnes of options but they want to just play it the one way and are butt hurt that they can't.

 

Alpha 16 was great - but it was FAR from perfect - repetitive towns, poor roads, too easy to tech up on day one and have an invincible base and endless farm by the end of week one, and traders providing all the ammo you could ever need. To what end? So you can hop on a minibike and tour the map blowing things to pieces with your many guns and ammo?

 

You could literally concrete up a base, surround it with wooden spikes in week 1, add a few gun turrets in week 2 and never have to fight or fear a horde ever again for the rest of the game.

 

Almost every legitimate and intelligently framed constructive criticism that I've read on this forum is answered by devs with either ' 'yeah, we're tweaking that' 'yeah we're gonna overhaul that' ' that's just a placeholder for now' or 'here's why that is the way it is and it's unlikely to change'.

 

 

Almost every unanswered criticism always comes down to 'I want the game to work this way and it doesn't, please change everything for me.' or 'I really liked a previous version better, but don't want to have to play and older version, please change everything for me.' or 'I completely failed to understand how early access works, and that's the Devs problem.'

 

If people make reasonable points, or ask reasonable questions, then there's lots of room for those discussions; but too many over dramatic cries of 'crafting is dead!' 'melee is dead' 'the game is dead' when what they mean is 'aw crap, now I need to re-learn some things, make a mod, find a mod or roll it back.'

 

Whatever line you take, it's a road lined with options which you chose to take or not to take.

 

Most of this is your opinion. I agree that many people cry about things because they refuse to adapt but you too belong to one of these groups. You say "Alpha 16 was great - but it was FAR from perfect" that's your opinion, others may find it perfect.

 

You say A16 was " too easy to tech up on day one and have an invincible base and endless farm by the end of week one", others say turn up the difficulty.

 

You mentioned "many guns and ammo" in A16, if I remember correctly there was a great brass shortage in pretty much every alpha but A18 and you weren't getting a lot of ammo early game at all. Even less if you turned down the loot drop percentage. So you want less ammo because you refused to turn down the loot.

 

It's all about opinions and I can pick many more out of your post but I think you get the point. My point was we are here to exchange OPINIONS and mostly all of these opinions can be changed with settings such as loot percentage.

 

I just dislike the fact that his opinion means that he is "butt hurt" where as yours are to be accepted as fact. Sorry but that's not the case.

 

Edit: "Whatever line you take, it's a road lined with options which you chose to take or not to take." That includes "You could literally concrete up a base, surround it with wooden spikes in week 1, add a few gun turrets in week 2 and never have to fight or fear a horde ever again for the rest of the game." That's a line you chose to take, most likely on an easy difficulty with 150% loot or something like that.

[BobTheBard]

I phrased it more diplomatically in the next sentence, but I feel I justified it with the point by point explanation which followed and showed that the OP had chosen to play the way which was frustrating them, and their complaint was 95% them not knowing how to play.

It's a bit disingenuous to use 'Learn to play' as an argument when the gameplay and balance change dramatically with each new alpha. A18 hasn't been out that long and a lot of people didn't play A17 much because it was such a mess, so most people haven't had the time to learn the changes yet. I have hundreds of hours in the game, but only about 20 of them are in A17 and A18 combined. I knew how to play, but the game is a lot different now.

 

Alpha 16 was great - but it was FAR from perfect - repetitive towns, poor roads, too easy to tech up on day one and have an invincible base and endless farm by the end of week one, and traders providing all the ammo you could ever need. To what end? So you can hop on a minibike and tour the map blowing things to pieces with your many guns and ammo?

All these things are, in my experience, even more prominent in A18 than they were in A16. I don't even need to tech up because of how much loot I kick out of scavenging and who needs to buy ammo when you can find hundreds of it in even a short dungeon POI? And while POIs might not have repetitive physical design, they still have a repetitive gameplay loop made even more repetitive by quests. At least the roads and bridges are fixed now.

 

You could literally concrete up a base, surround it with wooden spikes in week 1, add a few gun turrets in week 2 and never have to fight or fear a horde ever again for the rest of the game.

This is also still true, because past a certain point most people stop bothering with a base because having one is too resource-intensive, what with all the Demolishers that begin to pop up. It's much cheaper, easier, and more reliable to simply drive around on a minibike all night. And as for the first few horde nights, it's very easy to get a concrete bunker in a few days with all the concrete lying around in POIs now, when you had to actually tech up and craft it in A16.

 

Almost every unanswered criticism always comes down to 'I want the game to work this way and it doesn't, please change everything for me.' or 'I really liked a previous version better, but don't want to have to play and older version, please change everything for me.' or 'I completely failed to understand how early access works, and that's the Devs problem.'

Not going to argue your point, but I am going to argue your tone. It doesn't help your argument if you portray everyone who doesn't agree with you as an entitled whiner. How many plant fiber and cloth fragments does it take to craft a strawman?

 

If people make reasonable points, or ask reasonable questions, then there's lots of room for those discussions; but too many over dramatic cries of 'crafting is dead!' 'melee is dead' 'the game is dead' when what they mean is 'aw crap, now I need to re-learn some things, make a mod, find a mod or roll it back.'

I can agree that the dramatics don't help things, they never do. And I try to be reasonable in my criticisms - I never say base-building is dead, but I do say that I no longer see it as worthwhile. However, there's one element of your argument I take exception to, and that's where you talk about mods. Telling the customer 'Instead of complaining about it, why don't you or another customer just program it yourself' is completely absurd. Most of us aren't game developers, we don't have the time or inclination to learn how to make mods more complex than simple XML editing and not every function has a pre-existing mod in place, not to mention mods not getting updated or not being compatible and causing things to break.

[ktr]

<bit of a snip for length>This is also still true, because past a certain point most people stop bothering with a base because having one is too resource-intensive, what with all the Demolishers that begin to pop up. It's much cheaper, easier, and more reliable to simply drive around on a minibike all night. And as for the first few horde nights, it's very easy to get a concrete bunker in a few days with all the concrete lying around in POIs now, when you had to actually tech up and craft it in A16.

 

Eh, minibikes, running, swimming in a lake all night. There have always been "cheaper, easier, and more reliable" ways to deal with horde night than base defense. Whether or not a player takes them is, IMO, purely up to them. Bases were never, in A15 or A16, the end all be all of dealing with the horde - unless we're talking about underground bases where you could do almost everything you wanted while the horde hobbled around over your head, unable to touch you. (Note, I'm not damning underground bases, just pointing out that they were invulnerable fortresses for awhile that were, by comparison, MUCH cheaper to make and maintain and you could make them with a stone axe on D1.)

 

The biggest difference that I've encountered is that base building is no longer "optimal" for some people. It's still perfectly viable, and IMO a lot of fun. I love coming up with new designs that I think people might actually try in a 'real' zombie apocalypse. The most fun I have is when a base design fails and I gotta rethink it. I've done base designs in both A17 and A18 that take fairly minimal damage.

 

 

I can agree that the dramatics don't help things, they never do. And I try to be reasonable in my criticisms - I never say base-building is dead, but I do say that I no longer see it as worthwhile.

 

This is just me being curious - why do you no longer see it as worthwhile?

 

 

However, there's one element of your argument I take exception to, and that's where you talk about mods. Telling the customer 'Instead of complaining about it, why don't you or another customer just program it yourself' is completely absurd. Most of us aren't game developers, we don't have the time or inclination to learn how to make mods more complex than simple XML editing and not every function has a pre-existing mod in place, not to mention mods not getting updated or not being compatible and causing things to break.

 

While I agree that not everyone can/wants to learn to mod, modding is a huge part of this game for the very reasons we're all seeing in this discussion. We've all got different wants - some small, and some big - when it comes to the game. Not all of those wants are going to be met. Some that aren't met we'll be tolerable of and not mind (see: me with the old weapon parts system. I found it aggravating, but wouldn't complain if it came back), but at the end of the day, the devs can only design their vision and give us options (both in game and with modding) to tweak it to our individual Nirvana.

 

Also, please pardon me for jumping in mid discussion. Some of the points you've brought up interest me.

[WhamyKaBlamy]

So, I didn't want to kick off a massive discussion, but I appear to have. That post was just giving my feedback. Seeing as there have been some fairly large assumptions about what I meant to say or what I do as gameplay, I thought I'd clarify a few things.

 

So, the crux of my post was meant to be this - I see every realism/arcade trade off as coming with some pros and cons, but the game has gone more towards the cons (and hence less fun, for the sake of taking longer).

 

Taking the example of early game weapons (and responding to some of what Gerry decided to assume with the first big response), the effects of going realistic would be:

- Little to no initial skill with weapons (making the game harder).

- Learning how to use the weapons through use (making it easier as we go along).

- Lots of easy to use makeshift or jury rigged tools (making it easier and, frankly, more fun).

 

If it were being represented arcade style then it would be:

- No real representation of the multitude of tools there would be in every house (making it harder).

- A baseline level of skill that didn't require us to have good tools to be good (making it easier).

- Increasing our skill in an unrealistic way, ie - not naturally as we use them (making us pick and choose how we used those weapons).

 

In the past we got a nice mix of:

- Learning to use the tools through use

- No real representation of the multitude of tools

- A baseline level of skill

 

Now we seem to get:

- Little to no initial skill

- Increasing our skill in an unrealistic way

- No real representation of the multitude of tools

 

The amount of time it takes me to kill zombies with the basic tools, and the frustration therein, has at least doubled. And yes, I am using all of the different things available, my comment about spears was to illustrate how little of a difference putting the skill points into it made. I generally have a spear, a bow and a sledge hammer on me, and it STILL takes 7-10 blows with the sledge hammer or spear to kill a zombie.

 

And before you accuse me of not knowing how to use the weapons - how hard is it to understand aiming for the head, throwing the spear at their head and a right click gives a bigger, but more stamina draining swing? Please don't insult my intelligence.

 

As for the comments about my night time activities, I would really like to know what sort of weak-ass zombies you guys have in your game. Seriously, do you lower them? Because I started a new game today to go check that I wasn't missing out on some fundamental things (after reading the responses), and the first night I had a single zombie make it to the door through 3 rows of spikes. There was literally 1 half a of a spike left.

 

Whether or not you think night time is more or less dangerous, the point that I was trying to make was that I had more options at night in the past, whereas now I don't. The more that I'm forced to do the same, monotonous things over and over, the more boring and frustrating the game gets.

 

Why would having a single candle, behind 3 doors and down a mineshaft, cause as much heat as having that candle behind one makeshift door in a badly created little shack? They seem to have the same effect. As does whether you're minining/making sound a long way from the surface or right behind a door.

 

This wouldn't be so much of a frustration to me if I still had the option of doing "research" at night, ie.. sitting there and crafting/deconstructing things to make myself better at it. Which, ironically, would the actual way you'd learn to make things better in real life.

 

And one last, final, pedantic reply; I don't think Gerry knows how little force it actually takes to pierce a human skull. A knife can easily pierce a skull, even if not specificially a puncturing dagger. A sharpened metal point embedded on the end of a wooden shaft would have enough force. It would require skill, but that wasn't the point I was making with that comment, and I think the pedantic reply to the concept of makeshift weapons wasn't really thought through anyway.

[AtomicUs5000]

Why would having a single candle, behind 3 doors and down a mineshaft, cause as much heat as having that candle behind one makeshift door in a badly created little shack? They seem to have the same effect. As does whether you're minining/making sound a long way from the surface or right behind a door.

The only zombie that cares about heat is the screamer. That one zombie at night comes because you are making noise.

[BobTheBard]

The biggest difference that I've encountered is that base building is no longer "optimal" for some people. It's still perfectly viable, and IMO a lot of fun. I love coming up with new designs that I think people might actually try in a 'real' zombie apocalypse. The most fun I have is when a base design fails and I gotta rethink it. I've done base designs in both A17 and A18 that take fairly minimal damage.

 

This is just me being curious - why do you no longer see it as worthwhile?

In a word, Demolishers. Their large explosions that can take down prodigious amounts of walls and defenses mean that if you get any more than one or two you're not going to have much of a base left, and I just can't be bothered to spend my seven days between blood moons building a new base every single time once Demolishers begin to show up. Anything I do build to survive waves of Demolishers is either going to have to be enormous with many-layered defenses that I'll need to fix every single time or incorporate some kind of AI pathfinding cheese so they just never get to me before I have time to find them and kill them.

 

While I agree that not everyone can/wants to learn to mod, modding is a huge part of this game for the very reasons we're all seeing in this discussion. We've all got different wants - some small, and some big - when it comes to the game. Not all of those wants are going to be met. Some that aren't met we'll be tolerable of and not mind (see: me with the old weapon parts system. I found it aggravating, but wouldn't complain if it came back), but at the end of the day, the devs can only design their vision and give us options (both in game and with modding) to tweak it to our individual Nirvana.

While this is true to some extent, 'Just mod it' is an argument I don't like seeing because once it becomes common it will all too often be used an excuse to ignore feedback and criticism by both developers and veteran players. Mods should, in my opinion, be smaller tweaks and modifications to a strong base game rather than being relied on to overhaul entire systems of the game that don't work the way they should, and if a large portion of the community is using and encouraging others to use mods to 'fix' perceived problems then it becomes difficult for the developers to get legitimate feedback.

 

Also, please pardon me for jumping in mid discussion. Some of the points you've brought up interest me.

No offense taken! Reasonable discussion is always welcome.

[ktr]

In a word, Demolishers. Their large explosions that can take down prodigious amounts of walls and defenses mean that if you get any more than one or two you're not going to have much of a base left, and I just can't be bothered to spend my seven days between blood moons building a new base every single time once Demolishers begin to show up. Anything I do build to survive waves of Demolishers is either going to have to be enormous with many-layered defenses that I'll need to fix every single time or incorporate some kind of AI pathfinding cheese so they just never get to me before I have time to find them and kill them.

 

The Demolishers, I do suspect, will be tweaked over time and there are definitely some general zombie pathing items that I'd like to see adjusted. Some of which have existed since I started played (A14 or A15, I think) some that are new. I'd really like to see zombies not give as much weight to traps in their pathing is the biggest example off the top of my head and I'm really glad we have the option to adjust zombie block damage.

 

 

While this is true to some extent, 'Just mod it' is an argument I don't like seeing because once it becomes common it will all too often be used an excuse to ignore feedback and criticism by both developers and veteran players. Mods should, in my opinion, be smaller tweaks and modifications to a strong base game rather than being relied on to overhaul entire systems of the game that don't work the way they should, and if a large portion of the community is using and encouraging others to use mods to 'fix' perceived problems then it becomes difficult for the developers to get legitimate feedback.

 

 

No offense taken! Reasonable discussion is always welcome.

 

I don't necessarily disagree, though I will say that sometimes 'mod it' is the only answer. There are people who really LBD back in the game or want, to reference another discussion, food spoilage. Both of these are probably major adjustments to the game as it stands now. The chances of LBD coming back are possibly so low as to be non existent. Food spoilage might have a better chance, but at best it's a long term possible implementation. So, the only answer *is* mod it, or find a mod that does those things.

 

The only thing I'd point out is the 'large portion of the community'. I know this is another topic that has been debated endlessly, so I'll keep it brief. Fact is, none of us know what the 'large portion of the community' want, or even that the 'large portion of the community' is correct in asking for certain changes.

[n2n1]

I, too, not despite to read all your texts, but want confirm - that A17-A18 have become not interesting for gameplay.

That's my opinion.

That's all.

I can't change it because it's me. Especially since your opinions can't change it either, because it's yours.

Release will judge.