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madmole

Alpha 19 Dev Diary

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13 hours ago, faatal said:

Water is still stored in the chunks we already have. It will just not be as blocks.

I see. You make it sound so easy. 

 

Faatal: Ey guys, A20 update. Imma create a launch propulsion interface system for this tomato plant using only notepad and a snickers bar.

 

Forums: #like#like#like#thanks#thanks#poop#knucklerub#like

 

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On 10/7/2020 at 8:23 PM, faatal said:

A20 NEWS!!!!!!!  ;)

Started on the water overhaul this week. I'm working on the water chunk data and another programmer will be doing simulation/mesh changes.

 

My plan is water will not be a block, but additional chunk data, which is a pretty big change. It makes more sense, since any block could have water in it while still being whatever block it is.

Utterly fantastic!  We've been waiting for a decent overhaul since the water physics were crippled to prevent base flooding exploits, speaking of which...

 

Are you aiming for volumetric water, in the sense that I can carve a canal from a lake at the top of a hill and drain some of the water into a moat around my base?

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@faatal a question about water, is it going to flow?

say you dig a hole and you make a trench to a pond with the water travel and fill up that hole while lowering the water level in the pond?

just curious to see what you guys are aiming to do, even tho the water development just started

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Really glad to hear water is getting overhauled, I've always wanted to include water in builds.

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@madmole

For the sake of "simplification", we should get rid of the dart trap ammo and just make it shoot nails.

Dart ammo is only used there. Whatd'ya think?

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@faatal Regarding water, can you share the list of requirements and/or desired behaviors that you will be trying to meet?

 

I'm genuinely curious, and also can't resist the upcoming... wait for it... WATERGATE!  Haha, history has come full circle!

 

faatal.jpg.f62184370ef48e17cd10e04fdd8b6024.jpg

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@Fatal  Will this water update pave the way for boats and how does this affect the game, as in what is the benefit of doing it as a mesh vs block?  Will the CM menu still have water as placeable?

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On 10/9/2020 at 2:15 PM, The Gronk said:

Utterly fantastic!  We've been waiting for a decent overhaul since the water physics were crippled to prevent base flooding exploits, speaking of which...

 

Are you aiming for volumetric water, in the sense that I can carve a canal from a lake at the top of a hill and drain some of the water into a moat around my base?

We are aiming for performant water that does not have holes in it. Beyond that, it will depend on how slow the simulations run and how much time we have.

3 hours ago, Spectral Force said:

@Fatal  Will this water update pave the way for boats and how does this affect the game, as in what is the benefit of doing it as a mesh vs block?  Will the CM menu still
have water as placeable?

Boats could be done at any time if we wanted to, with old or new water.

Water is still block based, but it is not a block. Meaning it is the size of a block and shares the space of a block, but any block could have water in it.

 

There may still be water block(s) for placement or other reasons, but when placed it would become water data.

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On 10/12/2020 at 2:43 AM, DanLW said:

@faatal Regarding water, can you share the list of requirements and/or desired behaviors that you will be trying to meet?

No, since our current list is subject to change. Top goal is water that does not suck.

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2 hours ago, faatal said:

No, since our current list is subject to change. Top goal is water that does not suck.

I like things that suck ;)

 

 

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2 hours ago, faatal said:

No, since our current list is subject to change. Top goal is water that does not suck.

1.How hard are you finding the implementation of the new water design in terms of code?

 

2.Does the Unity framework help at all or is it a system that needs to be made entirely from scratch ?

 

3.I don't recall seing much on the subject. Is it lighter on the CPU than the current one?

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3 hours ago, faatal said:

Meaning it is the size of a block and shares the space of a block, but any block could have water in it.

Since blocks and water can share space, I wonder whether the POI design guys are cooking up  any submerged dungeons for us.

 

A submerged ship off the coast of Arizona would be so immersive. ;)

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3 hours ago, faatal said:

No, since our current list is subject to change. Top goal is water that does not suck.

Somehow I believe that the task list actually says this.

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7 hours ago, faatal said:

No, since our current list is subject to change. Top goal is water that does not suck.

Can we hope that water will work like in Minecraft, being distributed between blocks when the amount of water in one of the blocks decreases?
Will water be able to flow from one water area to another, located below the level?
I dream a lot ... probably 😃

Edited by Orsey (see edit history)

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14 hours ago, Orsey said:

Can we hope that water will work like in Minecraft, being distributed between blocks when the amount of water in one of the blocks decreases?
Will water be able to flow from one water area to another, located below the level?
I dream a lot ... probably 😃

I just hope its better then it is now! Becauses its KAKA!

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15 hours ago, Orsey said:

Can we hope that water will work like in Minecraft, being distributed between blocks when the amount of water in one of the blocks decreases?

We can always hope, but I think that would be difficult, computationally, unless we want the infinite water trick that Minecraft has. Minecraft only has two water types, source block and flowing block (with a 'direction' tag on the flowing blocks). It doesn't really redistribute the remaining water when you remove a block (from a pond let's say), it just calculates whether there ought to be a flowing block where you took the water or whether it should create a new source block (the infinite water trick). A single source block will power a waterfall forever; it never drains out. And you can't take water from a flowing block (to fill a bucket).

 

Trying to calculate 120 glass jars' worth of water out of a lake and then redistributing the water in the entire lake would be...a challenge, even if the entire lake was contained in loaded chunks. If they greatly simplify it by having, say, only 10 possible water levels in a block, the visual of seeing the pond drop down visibly after X jars/buckets have been removed would result in much wailing and gnashing of teeth in these forums.

 

I'm no expert so grain of salt and all that, but I think of how computationally expensive it is to calculate SI (i.e. lag you see when a medium or large building is collapsing) and then think about a 4,000 block lake of water and needing to compute new water levels when the player takes a stack of murky water jars from it. Or builds a trench leading out of it in an attempt to drain it into a moat around his base. Maybe they'll find a neat shortcut for all of that which works well.

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45 minutes ago, Boidster said:

I'm no expert so grain of salt and all that, but I think of how computationally expensive it is to calculate SI (i.e. lag you see when a medium or large building is collapsing) and then think about a 4,000 block lake of water and needing to compute new water levels when the player takes a stack of murky water jars from it. Or builds a trench leading out of it in an attempt to drain it into a moat around his base. Maybe they'll find a neat shortcut for all of that which works well.

As an extension of your suppositional point, imagine the lag if a computer/server was called to calculate the water level for those maps that are basically old school RTS style 4 islands in an 8km+ by 8km+ sea... 

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On 10/13/2020 at 4:54 PM, faatal said:

We are aiming for performant water that does not have holes in it. Beyond that, it will depend on how slow the simulations run and how much time we have.

 

Good luck with that, no sarcasm intended.  It's one of the hardest things to simulate well.

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22 hours ago, Blake_ said:

1.How hard are you finding the implementation of the new water design in terms of code?

 

2.Does the Unity framework help at all or is it a system that needs to be made entirely from scratch ?

 

3.I don't recall seing much on the subject. Is it lighter on the CPU than the current one?

1 Tons of code changes.

2 This is all c# code. Not much to do with Unity.

3 Way too early to tell.

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Sorry if this has been asked before, but after the new water is complete is there any plans to add fishing and/or some kind of dangerous water creature like a zombie piranha?

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22 minutes ago, JakeNation4 said:

Sorry if this has been asked before, but after the new water is complete is there any plans to add fishing and/or some kind of dangerous water creature like a zombie piranha?

 

Yesterday as I was driving around the wasteland on my bicycle desperate for food, I passed a series of small lakes and wondered about fishing for the first time. I think it would be a nice addition under the condition that canned food was slightly less abundant. Aside from this one early game instance, I'm usually not pressing for food. If implemented, you could use fishing as an enticement to put some points into the hunting and cooking skills, perhaps to unlock crafting of a rod/lure and various recipes.

 

I'm guessing it's a no at this point, though, as they're generally not adding new systems or things on the roadmap.

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1 hour ago, JakeNation4 said:

Sorry if this has been asked before, but after the new water is complete is there any plans to add fishing and/or some kind of dangerous water creature like a zombie piranha?

No plans yet, the first is to get a reliable performant water solution.

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On 10/13/2020 at 5:23 PM, faatal said:

 Top goal is water that does not suck.

 

That's all i need to hear! Keep up the great work :)

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7 hours ago, madmole said:

No plans yet, the first is to get a reliable performant water solution.

It wouldn't hurt to backport a few optimization changes. I still can't play the game without freezes (I reported them correctly and they were confirmed fixed, but they are still not in 19.2 due to the team moving on to a20).

 

Also, there's a problem with the  steam store 7dtd's minimum specs (just the CPU).

You should state that we NEED a 4 core CPU minimum system. Multithreaded or not, this game can't run in a 2 core 2 threaded 2.4ghz cpu in any resolution or configuration at a stable framerate. 

 

Hell, currently it can't even run without constant freezes at 4 cores 4 threads 2.7ghz . It MIGHT run at 4 cores after some spawning/ issues are resolved though .  2 cores is unrealistic, naive and even damaging for 7dtd in terms of marketing, mouth to mouth sales and reviews. Yeah, it wasn't unrealistic in alpha 12.5. It's time for a tweak.

 

Regarding the storage  (HDD vs SSD) it should be fine not to put it on the minimum/rec specs IF the team keeps in mind that everything should be loaded on to memory (RAM,  and/or dedicated)  until the player opens some interfaces (inventory, trader, etc)  and even then, the file writing should be delayed, precached and minimal (except on the ESCAPE/PAUSE menu of course). 

 

Bottom line: Please backport optimization fixes ASAP so we can help in detecting the remaining optimization problems. By all means continue with a20 until June, but those fixes are not online yet and they need to be.

Edited by Blake_ (see edit history)

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We generally do not back port major features because it can be time consuming and it waters down the next alpha.

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