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Alpha 19 Dev Diary


madmole

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18 hours ago, rubens9311 said:

My point too. 
I don't understand how players can spend points on Stealth? 
The worst thing is that if you want to make a tier 5 with "stealth" you will be literally 24 hours real.

Let's not even mention that on horde night it is useless and guess what, the game is about surviving the hordes haha

 
Here's a bit of hate: I always thought people use stealth because they are new to the game JA

We'll see how opinions change after bandits are in. Getting the drop on a few guys to lower their numbers using stealth is always a good plan.

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2 hours ago, Laz Man said:

This Floor?  I checked for you and the volume on that floor is an "Attack" volume so they will come after you as soon as you enter it. 

 

  Hide contents

Attack Volume.jpg

 

 

Yeah, that is the one spot I believe, from your picture.  So it is a scripted spot like I thought. 

6 hours ago, HungryZombie said:

Was your stealth skill maxed out?

 

It was 3 or 4, but above it looks like he found that it is just a scripted spot you can not do anything about. 

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1 hour ago, wolfbain5 said:

I stealth attack with a knife quite regularly even with only 2 points in it. I have to move slowly as to not make the stealth meter go above 30 most of the time. and muffled connectors even in cloth armor helps alot. you also dont have to be as close to them as you may think. sneak attack to the head kills even cops or soldiers. at times tho I still wake them up early or just cant get to the head because of positioning, but the multiplier is still good. I rely mostly on the bow tho for stealth. I only have a knife out when first entering small rooms or houses.

 

plus, with the knife as my main, I dont waste a slot on a separate melee weapon and still have an efficient butchering tool

Padded armor for backstabbing glory.

45 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

Audio Occlusion would be a HUGE stealth improvement, as it would outright solve insta-wake up problems between rooms and create an even more immersive experience.

 

Why don't you guys up the CPU requirements on the steam page for sanity and try to implement the system and polish it from there? We 2012's  pc users would whine less if the "2 core at 2.4ghz" minimum joke was realistic : less than 4 cores and this game can't be played on any resolution (yes, even on 640 x rockbottom pixels) with stable fps. I have 4c/8t at 3.9 and here I am having twinkie breaks every 15 seconds. Even with fixes, I doubt 2 cores are ever gonna be playable at less than 4.5GHz+ clock frequencies.

 

Be aware that 7dtd has at least 2 years to go and 2 generations of hardware to see before the final polished state. 

 

And then there's Unity. It supports the Eiffel Tower, Earth and Vulkan  :D .

 

I don't think it is the CPU requirements, it is just finding time to tackle it. You might only need to cast in 6 directions periodically to define your space then dampen sounds that collide with those. Or do some kind of pre generation of room volumes and diminish audio and stealth if it collides with each volume.

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Agility weapons need a rework imo. It just cannot find it’s stride in current state.

 

Bows try to compete with firearms and it shouldn’t. Bows need a different approach. It should be a bleed weapon as well whether it be via perks or bleed arrows. This would compliment knives nicely. Imagine... Plink several targets from a distance, stacking bleeds, then go in close with the knife and finish them off. Great synergy!

 

Knife rework.. Regular attacks stack bleeds. Power attacks give bonus damage based on how many bleeds on target.

Edited by Perlin_Worm (see edit history)
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24 minutes ago, Perlin_Worm said:

Agility weapons need a rework imo. It just cannot find it’s stride in current state.

 

Bows try to compete with firearms and it shouldn’t. Bows need a different approach. It should be a bleed weapon as well whether it be via perks or bleed arrows. This would compliment knives nicely. Imagine... Plink several targets from a distance, stacking bleeds, then go in close with the knife and finish them off. Great synergy!

 

Knife rework.. Regular attacks stack bleeds. Power attacks give bonus damage based on how many bleeds on target.

Yeah, and please make my favorite weapons OP too! It's a club and crossbow. Bolts must smash legs (even if you fire in head) and club must explode zombies in area. Greater synergy! 😁

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11 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

But I'm sure everything will be fixed in time... I just don't understand why everyone is denying or belittling problems and partially broken systems.

You are in the wrong forum thread to be reporting bugs and expecting professional responses. Report it in the bug pool with supporting evidence and you will either get a thanks or some follow up questions/requests or a message that it is working as intended by the QA staff. Report it here without any evidence and everyone who never experienced it will share their nonexperience with you and call into question your claims. Everyone else who likes the way it works will belittle the changes you propose because they don't like them.

 

Pick your audience better. ;)

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43 minutes ago, Perlin_Worm said:

Agility weapons need a rework imo. It just cannot find it’s stride in current state.

 

Bows try to compete with firearms and it shouldn’t. Bows need a different approach. It should be a bleed weapon as well whether it be via perks or bleed arrows. This would compliment knives nicely. Imagine... Plink several targets from a distance, stacking bleeds, then go in close with the knife and finish them off. Great synergy!

 

Knife rework.. Regular attacks stack bleeds. Power attacks give bonus damage based on how many bleeds on target.

 

Knives already get bleed on normal attacks with the Serrated Blade mod for 10% chance and at Deep Cuts 3 it adds a 40% chance that goes up to 70% at rank 4 and 100% at rank 5. For me all Knives really need is for the Hunting Knife's base damage to be buffed a little and preferably a Extended Blade mod. Other then that they feel fine to me and don't need much.

 

Bows/Crossbows compete only with Perceptions Rifle line of guns and the Hunting Rifle at most but you forget to mention that Agility's gun of choice is Pistols. Which are very versatile with the Pistol, SMG, Magnum, and Desert Vulture allowing Agility players a good amount of firepower with very cheep ammo.

 

Edit- Almost forgot my changes for Bows/Crossbows, all I would like for Bows/Crossbows would be Flaming Arrows moved from Steel tier to Iron tier.

Edited by Danidas (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, hiemfire said:

So it is a hard trigger and not just from making noise when you get off the ladder (which is the moment they aggro). Iirc the roof of that one is another one of those volumes.  (just cleared that place last night, was a fun clear for the most part) 😑

 

Yeah, I think there are a few spots in that POI where they are scripted to hear you, depending on where the zombies spawn, but I that one spot was the most obvious because of how careful and slow I was all the times I did it.  They actually seem to trigger a little after you get off the ladder, when you go to cross, but depending on how you got off the ladder you might have hit that spot. 

49 minutes ago, madmole said:

We'll see how opinions change after bandits are in. Getting the drop on a few guys to lower their numbers using stealth is always a good plan.

 

I am sure, although you can still do that without pumping the sneak skill. 

 

If the from the shadows skill were just tweaked so that the spot range of zombies during the day were no so huge when sneaking it would probably be worth getting. 

43 minutes ago, Perlin_Worm said:

Bows try to compete with firearms and it shouldn’t.

 

Yeah, you used to be able to quick fire the bow, just tapping and letting arrows fly, and the damage was still good.  When it was like that you could almost use it like a pistol. 

 

Last I tested it though it seemed like quick fire shots were doing crap damage.  A nurse had like 3 or so in here head and I was like, okay, that is not right lol. 

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1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

Correct.  Creamery workers must have great hearing.  😀

Starting to look like 2 hard coded auto aggro volumes may be the norm for the A19 dungeon style POIs. Just cleared the Ranger Station at the intersection south of Diresville (obviously the Navesgane map)and ran into 2 of the auto aggro volumes again at that one. This is starting to feel like the POI Dev side equivalent of wedge tips. Abuse "unintended" behavior of a opponent. Where zombies not being able to walk climb or attack wedge tips was what we took advantage of, the POI Devs are taking advantage of us expecting stealth to actually do something. Getting the early inclination that who ever designed the POIs with volume auto aggro don't want you stealthing and "ruining" their "intended experience". If I find I keep running into this with the new dungeon POIs I'm just going to skip them. (Suspected Auto Aggro Volumes in the Ranger Station south of Diresville are the sloped yard between the POI entry garage and the blue barracks building, and the top floor of the main station building.)

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19 hours ago, rubens9311 said:

I don't understand how players can spend points on Stealth? 
The worst thing is that if you want to make a tier 5 with "stealth" you will be literally 24 hours real.

Let's not even mention that on horde night it is useless and guess what, the game is about surviving the hordes haha

 
Here's a bit of hate: I always thought people use stealth because they are new to the game JA

No one becomes a master overnight, and we all have to crawl before we can walk. Welcome to life. IMHO TFP would be best served providing as many different playstyle options as possible, while still maintaining challenge vs reward balance. Not all challenges could or should need to be killed to be overcome.

 

Players use stealth because they love oldschool RPG games like Hitman or Thief (both Eidos), and probably predate the "Leeroy Jenkins" crowd. While "run n' gun" works in parts of said games, you will die (revert to last save, not respawn) MUCH more frequently, than when you approach encounters with wit and guile. You will also expend a far greater amount of resources (ammo + medical) getting to the LOOT. You know, that loot thing EVERYONE needs to survive the entire game, and not just the bloodmoon horde? Some people play for immersion, and not necessarily the "optimal" or quickest/most efficient way. If speedrunning is your thing, more power to ya, but it is not my thing, nor that of most players.

 

It IS true that scared "newb" players will try to avoid fights, rather than charging into them. To do otherwise, with their level of gear and experience, would be idiocy. I feel the only thing you and I probably agree on, is that stealth+aggro+volumes+heatmap needs MUCH more work in its current form. Would probably rate it as stealth>water physics>RWG, but that is just my personal priority.

Edited by Cernwn (see edit history)
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19 hours ago, rubens9311 said:

My point too. 
I don't understand how players can spend points on Stealth? 
The worst thing is that if you want to make a tier 5 with "stealth" you will be literally 24 hours real.

Let's not even mention that on horde night it is useless and guess what, the game is about surviving the hordes haha

 
Here's a bit of hate: I always thought people use stealth because they are new to the game JA

Newbies? ))) I just don't like wasting a lot of ammo)

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5 minutes ago, Cernwn said:

No one becomes a master overnight, and we all have to crawl before we can walk. Welcome to life. IMHO TFP would be best served providing as many different playstyle options as possible, while still maintaining challenge vs reward balance. Not all challenges could or should need to be killed to be overcome.

 

Players use stealth because they love oldschool RPG games like Hitman or Thief (both Eidos), and probably predate the "Leeroy Jenkins" crowd. While "run n' gun" works in parts of said games, you will die (revert to last save, not respawn) MUCH more frequently, than when you approach encounters with wit and guile. You will also expend a far greater amount of resources (ammo + medical) getting to the LOOT. You know, that loot thing EVERYONE needs to survive the entire game, and not just the bloodmoon horde? Some people play for immersion, and not necessarily the "optimal" or quickest/most efficient way. If speedrunning is your thing, more power to ya, but it is not my thing, nor that of most players.

 

It IS true that scared "newb" players will try to avoid fights, rather than charging into them. To do otherwise, with their level of gear and experience, would be idiocy. I feel the only thing you and I probably agree on, is that stealth+aggro+volumes+heatmap needs MUCH more work in its current form. Would probably rate it as stealth>water physics>RWG, but that is just my personal priority.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but if you play this game a lot you will realize that I am right.
 The pois and the position of the z in them are not 100% optimized for stealth.
 A feral z will always appear out of nowhere silently, stun you and your sleeping bag.

- Out your stealth, out your exp, out your "loot". Sorry friend, stealth is useless-. 
Regards
5 minutes ago, Orsey said:

Newbies? ))) I just don't like wasting a lot of ammo)

I don't use ammunition. 
I only wear it for wolves / bears. My deck and I salute you.
 You must know where to step and when to hit. 
I only advise to wait for the z to settle after its first fall. 
Your stamina will not be a problem if you know how to hit the hit box and if you kiss sexual tyrannosaurus
6 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Holy crap you are all STILL going on about stealth.  Ill be on pronhub, later. 

 

I'll call you when we talk about the orgasm it produced when we found the book of the mini bike in alpha 16. How nice that was: ')

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29 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Starting to look like 2 hard coded auto aggro volumes may be the norm for the A19 dungeon style POIs. Just cleared the Ranger Station at the intersection south of Diresville (obviously the Navesgane map)and ran into 2 of the auto aggro volumes again at that one. This is starting to feel like the POI Dev side equivalent of wedge tips. Abuse "unintended" behavior of a opponent. Where zombies not being able to walk climb or attack wedge tips was what we took advantage of, the POI Devs are taking advantage of us expecting stealth to actually do something. Getting the early inclination that who ever designed the POIs with volume auto aggro don't want you stealthing and "ruining" their "intended experience". If I find I keep running into this with the new dungeon POIs I'm just going to skip them. (Suspected Auto Aggro Volumes in the Ranger Station south of Diresville are the sloped yard between the POI entry garage and the blue barracks building, and the top floor of the main station building.)

I get the frustration.  However, I don't believe all POIs are intended to be 100% stealthable.  Many stealth games use this type of design. (e.g. unstealthable areas/bosses).

 

Also, i disagree with your analogy.  It's not unintended behavior if the mechanic/design is creating the experience they want to deliver.  Just like how a director of a movie/tv show manages the pacing and scenes for the audience.

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)
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55 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Starting to look like 2 hard coded auto aggro volumes may be the norm for the A19 dungeon style POIs. Just cleared the Ranger Station at the intersection south of Diresville (obviously the Navesgane map)and ran into 2 of the auto aggro volumes again at that one.

2 out of how many volumes? If it is 2 out of 4 so you could only utilize stealth for 50% of the POI then I agree that it really invalidates the stealth points that were taken. However, if it is 2 out 10 then Stealth is great and you had a stealthy experience for 80% and an open combat experience for 20%. Sometimes there are circumstances that work against you and having to quickly adapt to a changing situation is challenging and fun-- or at least different than always playing it out the same way.

 

@pApA^LeGBa made the point on a different thread that there should be some sort of visual or audio cue as a logical reason that communicates the automatic wake up to the player so that they are not confused about why it happened and just think their stealth is bugged. So maybe you hear a crate fall from out of sight and the noise wakes them all up. Your stealth was fine but bad luck sent you a curve ball. I agree with pApA that having some kind of cue that explains why they all wake up would be good to have. But I think having occasional areas where things are not going to be able to be stealthed is fine. It adds variety to the gameplay.

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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34 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

I get the frustration.  However, I don't believe all POIs are intended to be 100% stealthable.  Many stealth games use this type of design. (e.g. unstealthable areas/bosses).

 

Also, i disagree with your analogy.  It's not unintended behavior if the mechanic/design is creating the experience they want to deliver.  Just like how a director of a movie/tv show manages the pacing and scenes for the audience.

 

Yeah, although there does not really seem to be much of a benefit for pumping from the shadows atm.  I am pretty sure you can do most POIs the stealthy path just as well without it, using a shotgun.  Even better honestly if you are doing the POI backwards and breaking through walls, lel. 

 

I say this as someone who does not really care about stealth, I am a robotic sledge boy now.

 

A shotgun waking up and entire tier 5 POI would honestly be a huge buff to my build, because it is nothing John Henry(my fav robotic sledge) and I can not handle, and we would get it done way faster.  

 

 

John Henry 1.jpg

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1 minute ago, pregnable said:

 

Yeah, although there does not really seem to be much of a benefit for pumping from the shadows atm.  I am pretty sure you can do most POIs the stealthy path just as well without it, using a shotgun.  Even better honestly if you are doing the POI backwards and breaking through walls, lel. 

 

I say this as someone who does not really care about stealth, I am a robotic sledge boy now.

 

A shotgun waking up and entire tier 5 POI would honestly be a huge buff to my build, because it is nothing John Henry(my fav robotic sledge) and I can not handle, and we would get it done way faster.  

 

 

John Henry 1.jpg

Who needs a robotic drone when we have Myra and Myla to take care of business?  (no pervy jokes Snowdog.... -_-) INT is my favorite build. :)

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16 hours ago, Phoenixshade35 said:

ive been doing a knife run right now but i have not had a lot of opportunities to use it for stealth, though having advanced muffled connectors, light armor to padded armor, and perks into the stealth tree along with the various books for stealth should work, ive focussed on using the bow right now for stealth kills, also when going through a poi destroy the garbage on the ground or broken glass, they always wake up to that stuff, its tricky but managable

I started destroying trash recently till i get the 'sneak over trash silently book'. Thats a hell of a lot of investment though to get a stealth kill off, the risk is far too high and the reward isnt that good.

The thing is, its not online when its needed, for example:

 

Early game its just far too unreliable, early game knife is bone shiv, it might not deal enough damage to one shot them, and you probably wont even get the sneak bonus damage in the first place.  

Mid game its too risky for the reward, if your doing stealth build at this stage then you probably have a wooden bow with iron arrows, but even stone arrows you get a reliable chance to one shot them with a head shot. A knife is the same reward for a much higher risk, you might save on some iron arrows, but that isnt really that vital.

Late game your swimming in ammo, you really dont need to worry about wasting a few arrows, or hell bullets on your t3 q6 silenced sniper rifle.

 

Even with all the mods and everything it still doesnt feel like its worth it.

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2 hours ago, Roland said:

Report it in the bug pool with supporting evidence and you will either get a thanks or some follow up questions/requests or a message that it is working as intended by the QA staff.

I'm very bad at using stuff like video recorder software and the likes.

Do you have any suggestion for a good free video recorder I could use with 7DTD to record evidence for bugs? Thanks

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2 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

I'm very bad at using stuff like video recorder software and the likes.

Do you have any suggestion for a good free video recorder I could use with 7DTD to record evidence for bugs? Thanks

If you have Windows 10, you can download Windows Xbox Gaming App which has built in recording software for gaming.  Its free, and its what I use. :)

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4 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

I'm very bad at using stuff like video recorder software and the likes.

Do you have any suggestion for a good free video recorder I could use with 7DTD to record evidence for bugs? Thanks

I like Bandicam or OBS; Bandicam is extremely high-performance. @Laz Man is right there, too, but that stuff eats a lot of memory (Windows gaming apps period).

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Had an interesting scenario pop up yesterday. Broke into the back door of a POI. 4 zombies woke up. I slowly started backing up, and a zombie (construction worker) jumped over me and landed in front of the door, preventing me from escaping. 2 more zombies jumped as I swung my club at them. This was in broad daylight on day 3. ;)

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