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Alpha 19 Dev Diary


madmole

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5 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

And I see you're absolutely ok with stealth being partially broken.

But I'm sure everything will be fixed in time... I just don't understand why everyone is denying or belittling problems and partially broken systems.

If anything should go into A19.1/2 should be these kind of fixes IMO.

 

I mean, it's alpha, as Madmole said you still need to wrap up some of the main systems, so there's no shame to admit that some of them can still have bugs and/or broken parts that are evident while playing. But I feel like I'm beating an undead horse so I'll stop here.


The reality is, there will always be mechanisms in the game that are left to abstraction aka broken for anyone not accepting the abstraction. Improving them also depends on whether there is actually a way that doesn't cost too much developer resources or fps.

 

I actually think your list is a good checklist of (optional?) things that could be improved about stealth:

 

Those heli landing spots on tier5 buildings are especially bad at spawing zombies in plain sight. I would add generator boxes or a lowered service walkway around the heli platform. Some other POIs could be improved that way as well. But they probably don't have the time or intention to fundamentally change the spawning mechanism. They probably can't prevent spawns in plain sight in each and every case. By the way: I am calling it "plain sight" even if the spawn happens just when I don't look at a spot for a split second.

 

Your point 2 (light that pushes the sneak meter up but nothing happens) might actually be a real bug, but did anyone make a bug report with reproducible steps? Because detection is random, this isn't easy to prove or disprove. Is it really a bug or just a situation that leads to detection only in 1/4 of all cases? You claim it is broken, but you left out any evidence.

I'm relatively sure they won't improve it to the point where shining a lamp into a zombies eye would be different than having it turned away from the zombie. This costs FPS. It sadly also means that a zombie will react to the light the same way whether a wall is inbetween or not.

 

Point 1 (sound of arrow impact is ignored) is problematic. If you simulate arrow impact sound you must also simulate bullet impact. That might be ok for the hunting rifle, but once 8 people on horde night shoot with M60s at the zombies that rather simple check might generate a big drop of fps.

 

Generally, the Dev Dairy is not the place for bug reports. If you make hazy claims, expect hazy replies.

 

 

1 hour ago, jdifran said:

So how is a sneak attack with a knife ever supposed to be effective if they always wake up before you can get within 1m?  Is the knife reach actually longer than 1m?

In A17 I stealth-ran to a distance near enough for the knife and immediately tried to cut their head off. Did not always succeed but often enough. Since then I was busy with trying out other attributes so not perfectly sure if it still works, but generally weapon reach now is greater than in A17.

 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, meganoth said:


 

In A17 I stealth-ran to a distance near enough for the knife and immediately tried to cut their head off. Did not always succeed but often enough. Since then I was busy with trying out other attributes so not perfectly sure if it still works, but generally weapon reach now is greater than in A17.

 

 

 

 

You can sneak right up to them now.  There is a "window" where you must start your attack while walking (early game), but it is easy to time.  Once you have points into stealth, you can easily sneak up and stealth kill them.

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7 hours ago, Aldranon said:

With Attributes, the two "Big Boys" are Strength and Fortitude, with the others currently in supporting roles.

 That. But basically, separating character developments into specific builds is unnecessary anyway for a SP/Coop game in my eyes. Supporting roles are reasonable in designated multiplayer team games (like battlefield), not in a single player sandbox game.  

 

Then again, it's not really detrimental to gameplay either, so I just take it as "it's there." 

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12 hours ago, BobbyLee298 said:

@madmole could we see the military truck as a drivable vehicle in a future Alpha, would be neet to see since the model is already in the game?

 

You could make it like the auger where you have to find the schematics to build it, with their being no perk to unlock it. 

Would be a nice end game thing that can hold 6 people 

personally i think it would make more sense to make a Apocalyptic Van or bus. plus it could fit in with the game more, it could have more space then the 4x4 but its slower and chugs gas! 

 

if someone wants to replace the model with a Army truck sure! 

but do i think TFP will do that? 

 

no  

2 hours ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Where dat A20 thread tho.

 

Getting hard just thinking about it.

WHERE ARE THE GASSERS GOING! 

It is what it is Memes

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21 hours ago, pregnable said:

 

Yeah sure, I believe one spot is business_burnt_02, right after you go up the ladder and have to pass through the elevator shaft. 

 

I was sneaking past the left wall in the elevator shaft, if that helps. 

 

I can not get on an take pictures atm, but I can later if needed. 

This Floor?  I checked for you and the volume on that floor is an "Attack" volume so they will come after you as soon as you enter it. 

Attack Volume.jpg

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I stealth attack with a knife quite regularly even with only 2 points in it. I have to move slowly as to not make the stealth meter go above 30 most of the time. and muffled connectors even in cloth armor helps alot. you also dont have to be as close to them as you may think. sneak attack to the head kills even cops or soldiers. at times tho I still wake them up early or just cant get to the head because of positioning, but the multiplier is still good. I rely mostly on the bow tho for stealth. I only have a knife out when first entering small rooms or houses.

 

plus, with the knife as my main, I dont waste a slot on a separate melee weapon and still have an efficient butchering tool

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21 hours ago, faatal said:

People underestimate zombie hearing. They detect you more by hearing than seeing. We do not have audio occlusion, so walls do not block sounds.

 

With zero light and maximum stealth perks, they will always see/hear at some minimum distance like 1m.

Audio Occlusion would be a HUGE stealth improvement, as it would outright solve insta-wake up problems between rooms and create an even more immersive experience.

 

Why don't you guys up the CPU requirements on the steam page for sanity and try to implement the system and polish it from there? We 2012's  pc users would whine less if the "2 core at 2.4ghz" minimum joke was realistic : less than 4 cores and this game can't be played on any resolution (yes, even on 640 x rockbottom pixels) with stable fps. I have 4c/8t at 3.9 and here I am having twinkie breaks every 15 seconds. Even with fixes, I doubt 2 cores are ever gonna be playable at less than 4.5GHz+ clock frequencies.

 

Be aware that 7dtd has at least 2 years to go and 2 generations of hardware to see before the final polished state. 

 

And then there's Unity. It supports the Eiffel Tower, Earth and Vulkan  :D .

 

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1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

This Floor?  I checked for you and the volume on that floor is an "Attack" volume so they will come after you as soon as you enter it. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Attack Volume.jpg

 

So it is a hard trigger and not just from making noise when you get off the ladder (which is the moment they aggro). Iirc the roof of that one is another one of those volumes.  (just cleared that place last night, was a fun clear for the most part) 😑

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11 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

So it is a hard trigger and not just from making noise when you get off the ladder (which is the moment they aggro). Iirc the roof of that one is another one of those volumes.  (just cleared that place last night, was a fun clear for the most part) 😑

Correct.  Creamery workers must have great hearing.  😀

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18 hours ago, rubens9311 said:

My point too. 
I don't understand how players can spend points on Stealth? 
The worst thing is that if you want to make a tier 5 with "stealth" you will be literally 24 hours real.

Let's not even mention that on horde night it is useless and guess what, the game is about surviving the hordes haha

 
Here's a bit of hate: I always thought people use stealth because they are new to the game JA

We'll see how opinions change after bandits are in. Getting the drop on a few guys to lower their numbers using stealth is always a good plan.

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2 hours ago, Laz Man said:

This Floor?  I checked for you and the volume on that floor is an "Attack" volume so they will come after you as soon as you enter it. 

 

  Hide contents

Attack Volume.jpg

 

 

Yeah, that is the one spot I believe, from your picture.  So it is a scripted spot like I thought. 

6 hours ago, HungryZombie said:

Was your stealth skill maxed out?

 

It was 3 or 4, but above it looks like he found that it is just a scripted spot you can not do anything about. 

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1 hour ago, wolfbain5 said:

I stealth attack with a knife quite regularly even with only 2 points in it. I have to move slowly as to not make the stealth meter go above 30 most of the time. and muffled connectors even in cloth armor helps alot. you also dont have to be as close to them as you may think. sneak attack to the head kills even cops or soldiers. at times tho I still wake them up early or just cant get to the head because of positioning, but the multiplier is still good. I rely mostly on the bow tho for stealth. I only have a knife out when first entering small rooms or houses.

 

plus, with the knife as my main, I dont waste a slot on a separate melee weapon and still have an efficient butchering tool

Padded armor for backstabbing glory.

45 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

Audio Occlusion would be a HUGE stealth improvement, as it would outright solve insta-wake up problems between rooms and create an even more immersive experience.

 

Why don't you guys up the CPU requirements on the steam page for sanity and try to implement the system and polish it from there? We 2012's  pc users would whine less if the "2 core at 2.4ghz" minimum joke was realistic : less than 4 cores and this game can't be played on any resolution (yes, even on 640 x rockbottom pixels) with stable fps. I have 4c/8t at 3.9 and here I am having twinkie breaks every 15 seconds. Even with fixes, I doubt 2 cores are ever gonna be playable at less than 4.5GHz+ clock frequencies.

 

Be aware that 7dtd has at least 2 years to go and 2 generations of hardware to see before the final polished state. 

 

And then there's Unity. It supports the Eiffel Tower, Earth and Vulkan  :D .

 

I don't think it is the CPU requirements, it is just finding time to tackle it. You might only need to cast in 6 directions periodically to define your space then dampen sounds that collide with those. Or do some kind of pre generation of room volumes and diminish audio and stealth if it collides with each volume.

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Agility weapons need a rework imo. It just cannot find it’s stride in current state.

 

Bows try to compete with firearms and it shouldn’t. Bows need a different approach. It should be a bleed weapon as well whether it be via perks or bleed arrows. This would compliment knives nicely. Imagine... Plink several targets from a distance, stacking bleeds, then go in close with the knife and finish them off. Great synergy!

 

Knife rework.. Regular attacks stack bleeds. Power attacks give bonus damage based on how many bleeds on target.

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24 minutes ago, Perlin_Worm said:

Agility weapons need a rework imo. It just cannot find it’s stride in current state.

 

Bows try to compete with firearms and it shouldn’t. Bows need a different approach. It should be a bleed weapon as well whether it be via perks or bleed arrows. This would compliment knives nicely. Imagine... Plink several targets from a distance, stacking bleeds, then go in close with the knife and finish them off. Great synergy!

 

Knife rework.. Regular attacks stack bleeds. Power attacks give bonus damage based on how many bleeds on target.

Yeah, and please make my favorite weapons OP too! It's a club and crossbow. Bolts must smash legs (even if you fire in head) and club must explode zombies in area. Greater synergy! 😁

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11 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

But I'm sure everything will be fixed in time... I just don't understand why everyone is denying or belittling problems and partially broken systems.

You are in the wrong forum thread to be reporting bugs and expecting professional responses. Report it in the bug pool with supporting evidence and you will either get a thanks or some follow up questions/requests or a message that it is working as intended by the QA staff. Report it here without any evidence and everyone who never experienced it will share their nonexperience with you and call into question your claims. Everyone else who likes the way it works will belittle the changes you propose because they don't like them.

 

Pick your audience better. ;)

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43 minutes ago, Perlin_Worm said:

Agility weapons need a rework imo. It just cannot find it’s stride in current state.

 

Bows try to compete with firearms and it shouldn’t. Bows need a different approach. It should be a bleed weapon as well whether it be via perks or bleed arrows. This would compliment knives nicely. Imagine... Plink several targets from a distance, stacking bleeds, then go in close with the knife and finish them off. Great synergy!

 

Knife rework.. Regular attacks stack bleeds. Power attacks give bonus damage based on how many bleeds on target.

 

Knives already get bleed on normal attacks with the Serrated Blade mod for 10% chance and at Deep Cuts 3 it adds a 40% chance that goes up to 70% at rank 4 and 100% at rank 5. For me all Knives really need is for the Hunting Knife's base damage to be buffed a little and preferably a Extended Blade mod. Other then that they feel fine to me and don't need much.

 

Bows/Crossbows compete only with Perceptions Rifle line of guns and the Hunting Rifle at most but you forget to mention that Agility's gun of choice is Pistols. Which are very versatile with the Pistol, SMG, Magnum, and Desert Vulture allowing Agility players a good amount of firepower with very cheep ammo.

 

Edit- Almost forgot my changes for Bows/Crossbows, all I would like for Bows/Crossbows would be Flaming Arrows moved from Steel tier to Iron tier.

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1 hour ago, hiemfire said:

So it is a hard trigger and not just from making noise when you get off the ladder (which is the moment they aggro). Iirc the roof of that one is another one of those volumes.  (just cleared that place last night, was a fun clear for the most part) 😑

 

Yeah, I think there are a few spots in that POI where they are scripted to hear you, depending on where the zombies spawn, but I that one spot was the most obvious because of how careful and slow I was all the times I did it.  They actually seem to trigger a little after you get off the ladder, when you go to cross, but depending on how you got off the ladder you might have hit that spot. 

49 minutes ago, madmole said:

We'll see how opinions change after bandits are in. Getting the drop on a few guys to lower their numbers using stealth is always a good plan.

 

I am sure, although you can still do that without pumping the sneak skill. 

 

If the from the shadows skill were just tweaked so that the spot range of zombies during the day were no so huge when sneaking it would probably be worth getting. 

43 minutes ago, Perlin_Worm said:

Bows try to compete with firearms and it shouldn’t.

 

Yeah, you used to be able to quick fire the bow, just tapping and letting arrows fly, and the damage was still good.  When it was like that you could almost use it like a pistol. 

 

Last I tested it though it seemed like quick fire shots were doing crap damage.  A nurse had like 3 or so in here head and I was like, okay, that is not right lol. 

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1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

Correct.  Creamery workers must have great hearing.  😀

Starting to look like 2 hard coded auto aggro volumes may be the norm for the A19 dungeon style POIs. Just cleared the Ranger Station at the intersection south of Diresville (obviously the Navesgane map)and ran into 2 of the auto aggro volumes again at that one. This is starting to feel like the POI Dev side equivalent of wedge tips. Abuse "unintended" behavior of a opponent. Where zombies not being able to walk climb or attack wedge tips was what we took advantage of, the POI Devs are taking advantage of us expecting stealth to actually do something. Getting the early inclination that who ever designed the POIs with volume auto aggro don't want you stealthing and "ruining" their "intended experience". If I find I keep running into this with the new dungeon POIs I'm just going to skip them. (Suspected Auto Aggro Volumes in the Ranger Station south of Diresville are the sloped yard between the POI entry garage and the blue barracks building, and the top floor of the main station building.)

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19 hours ago, rubens9311 said:

I don't understand how players can spend points on Stealth? 
The worst thing is that if you want to make a tier 5 with "stealth" you will be literally 24 hours real.

Let's not even mention that on horde night it is useless and guess what, the game is about surviving the hordes haha

 
Here's a bit of hate: I always thought people use stealth because they are new to the game JA

No one becomes a master overnight, and we all have to crawl before we can walk. Welcome to life. IMHO TFP would be best served providing as many different playstyle options as possible, while still maintaining challenge vs reward balance. Not all challenges could or should need to be killed to be overcome.

 

Players use stealth because they love oldschool RPG games like Hitman or Thief (both Eidos), and probably predate the "Leeroy Jenkins" crowd. While "run n' gun" works in parts of said games, you will die (revert to last save, not respawn) MUCH more frequently, than when you approach encounters with wit and guile. You will also expend a far greater amount of resources (ammo + medical) getting to the LOOT. You know, that loot thing EVERYONE needs to survive the entire game, and not just the bloodmoon horde? Some people play for immersion, and not necessarily the "optimal" or quickest/most efficient way. If speedrunning is your thing, more power to ya, but it is not my thing, nor that of most players.

 

It IS true that scared "newb" players will try to avoid fights, rather than charging into them. To do otherwise, with their level of gear and experience, would be idiocy. I feel the only thing you and I probably agree on, is that stealth+aggro+volumes+heatmap needs MUCH more work in its current form. Would probably rate it as stealth>water physics>RWG, but that is just my personal priority.

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19 hours ago, rubens9311 said:

My point too. 
I don't understand how players can spend points on Stealth? 
The worst thing is that if you want to make a tier 5 with "stealth" you will be literally 24 hours real.

Let's not even mention that on horde night it is useless and guess what, the game is about surviving the hordes haha

 
Here's a bit of hate: I always thought people use stealth because they are new to the game JA

Newbies? ))) I just don't like wasting a lot of ammo)

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5 minutes ago, Cernwn said:

No one becomes a master overnight, and we all have to crawl before we can walk. Welcome to life. IMHO TFP would be best served providing as many different playstyle options as possible, while still maintaining challenge vs reward balance. Not all challenges could or should need to be killed to be overcome.

 

Players use stealth because they love oldschool RPG games like Hitman or Thief (both Eidos), and probably predate the "Leeroy Jenkins" crowd. While "run n' gun" works in parts of said games, you will die (revert to last save, not respawn) MUCH more frequently, than when you approach encounters with wit and guile. You will also expend a far greater amount of resources (ammo + medical) getting to the LOOT. You know, that loot thing EVERYONE needs to survive the entire game, and not just the bloodmoon horde? Some people play for immersion, and not necessarily the "optimal" or quickest/most efficient way. If speedrunning is your thing, more power to ya, but it is not my thing, nor that of most players.

 

It IS true that scared "newb" players will try to avoid fights, rather than charging into them. To do otherwise, with their level of gear and experience, would be idiocy. I feel the only thing you and I probably agree on, is that stealth+aggro+volumes+heatmap needs MUCH more work in its current form. Would probably rate it as stealth>water physics>RWG, but that is just my personal priority.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but if you play this game a lot you will realize that I am right.
 The pois and the position of the z in them are not 100% optimized for stealth.
 A feral z will always appear out of nowhere silently, stun you and your sleeping bag.

- Out your stealth, out your exp, out your "loot". Sorry friend, stealth is useless-. 
Regards
5 minutes ago, Orsey said:

Newbies? ))) I just don't like wasting a lot of ammo)

I don't use ammunition. 
I only wear it for wolves / bears. My deck and I salute you.
 You must know where to step and when to hit. 
I only advise to wait for the z to settle after its first fall. 
Your stamina will not be a problem if you know how to hit the hit box and if you kiss sexual tyrannosaurus
6 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Holy crap you are all STILL going on about stealth.  Ill be on pronhub, later. 

 

I'll call you when we talk about the orgasm it produced when we found the book of the mini bike in alpha 16. How nice that was: ')

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