Jump to content
madmole

Alpha 19 Dev Diary

Recommended Posts

23 minutes ago, madmole said:

Nerd poling will not matter if you need a key from a zombie to unlock the loot chest. You'll have to go through the whole POI and hit a certain number of volumes before the special one spawns. We haven't done this yet, but it was talked about. Taking out nerd poling is a futile action because you can build ladders etc. Take out the incentive to nerd pole, problem solved.

I love the key idea. 

7 minutes ago, Kalen said:

So the problem isn't necessarily nerd poling, its that you don't like people finding ways to avoid zombies?    Because people could just as easily do what you're saying using 2 columns of frames..... or even concrete blocks if you don't like the re-usability of frames.    So removing nerd poling wouldn't really accomplish what you''re complaining about here.

 

Again, not really a nerd poling issue, as this can be accomplished without nerd poling.

 

Ok, so this really clarifies your point.... it's not nerd poling thats the issue.... you don't like wooden frames.   Just because you can pick them up?    So you probably feel the same way about hay bales or rebar?     No offence, but this sounds an awful lot like "Everyone should play my way, because I do it 'right'"  Games don't really work like that.

Can I get an Amen? AAAAAMEN.👏 Well said!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, meganoth said:

But you did make unnecessary references to the real word in your first post. I just followed suit. I count the word "realistic" 3 times in that first post of yours. But ok, lets assume that was a mistake (even though you use it again in this post to defend your A16 design) and you just were equating A16 with realism, since it seems emulating A16 is what you really want, right?

 

What you claim is that A16 is a sort of standard that the game has to keep. Because some design in A16 worked it has to work now too? Hey what about a design that worked in A12? Does that need to work in A19 as well?

Generally nearly everything worked in A16, because A16 was trivially easy, a pole you sat upon made in 2 minutes was already enough for the first hordes.

 

PS: I build a base later in A17, (after some AI bug fixes and balances) with catwalks that worked, with two block thick walls that actually held them off and led them to an open corridor. I can show you very different base designs I all made in A17, all worked. And sometimes I made a mistake I had to fix for the next horde night and that worked as well.

PPS: I build a base for the first two horde nights out of a derelict wood shack in A19 and it held up admirably. In SP I always use POIs I adapt slowly to my end-game horde base because it adds variety to my designs.

 

I used the world realistic to separate the base designs in cause from the slaughterhouses players build, I believe that was fairly obvious. As in, something that someone could live in (not necessarily real life) and have permanent entrances, not entrances that you get to by placing down 2 frames and removing them, but anyways.

 

Well, my first base in A19 was made from the destroyed house PoI with the water filled basement (has an ammunition box inside the water) and was holding up pretty well, until zombies "found" a weakness (literally the same blocks throughout the whole house, but these were slightly damaged) in the opposing side where they were originally coming from, and their hive mind AI simply sent them into attacking those 2 single blocks. 

 

And no, not everything has to work, but practical things that look good and are built to protect, should continue to be viable strategies. The example you said "pole sat on", is one of the things that in fact YOU SHOULD remove...Oh and i did have working designs on A17 and A18, otherwise I probably wouldn't be playing the game. The point here is not to see what works, but to ask yourself why don't the others work, when they obviously should? I'm not putting in cause the bases that work, that has never been my point, I merely questioned why do they keep working, but the others don't.

 

Oh and when you have double walls, triple, quadruple, you really SHOULD have it working. But as for someone who is putting concrete walls simply to direct them to the BIG *SS open entrance and mitigate focused damage, it's kinda frustrating when they prefer to break 2 blocks instead of going through an open area with traps (yes, zombies don't know what traps are) or each attack different spots at the same time.

 

But hey, each to their own, i'll make my own final judgments when the game finally comes out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The way I see it, nerd poling ain't that big an issue. The people that "cheat" will get to late game stage much faster and become bored. If they become bored with the game faster they leave faster, while I get to continue to appreciate the game with others that are still playing without shortcuts. If it's a solo game they're playing, what's the point of the argument at all? I think the zombie/ key idea is perfect if it could be added in. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, madmole said:

Nerd poling will not matter if you need a key from a zombie to unlock the loot chest. You'll have to go through the whole POI and hit a certain number of volumes before the special one spawns. We haven't done this yet, but it was talked about. Taking out nerd poling is a futile action because you can build ladders etc. Take out the incentive to nerd pole, problem solved.

So I do like the key idea some of the time.   It would get annoying if it was in every POI.   Additionally, you've built a pretty awesome, fully destructible, voxel world.   I'm a little disappointed that using the fact that the world IS fully destructible to, for example, break into a loot room is being categorized (by some people) as cheating or cheezing and that you're looking for ways to remove that ability.   

 

Personally, I do the dungeons following the intended path because I find it fun.... but, in my opinion, you shouldn't remove the ability to break your way into the loot room in every POI.  Use this key idea in some of them, not all.

Edited by Kalen (see edit history)
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no point to the argument, as long as there are both free building and survival mechanics people will manipulate the environment to survive. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Demandred1957 said:

I think if you guys..literally the "gods" of this virtual world have to turn stuff down from default settings, that should maybe be telling you something..

I challenge all of the fun pimps staff to play on default settings for a month, with the only restriction being self imposed "permadeath".

Then if you can do that, I wont fuss when Madmole wants to add feral night sense or other unbalanced things to the game...

Don't take things out of context. He probably left out the fact that he had hordes every night or two so that may be why he had block damage reduced significantly. Devs don't need to be good at the game they need to be good at their job. There is a portion of the team myself included that does play the game a lot but an animator needs to be good at animating, not knowing every in and out of the game design or being awesome at playing the game. It helps to some degree some more than others but is only critical for a few people on the team such as system designers and people doing balance.

  • Like 2
  • Sympathy 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, GuyFleegman said:

There is no point to the argument, as long as there are both free building and survival mechanics people will manipulate the environment to survive. 

 

 

Real life is a testament to that. Did the people who built our cities, our towns, our monuments use nerd poling? No, but if they could have, it would made things a lot easier. ;) But as the saying goes, life finds a way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Kalen said:

No offence, but this sounds an awful lot like "Everyone should play my way, because I do it 'right'"  Games don't really work like that.

Real life doesn`t work that way, either. Hope he learned his lesson. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, STyK_ said:

you guy are going to get me in trouble, I didn't want to start another debate, it was an interesting fact that we share the same opinion.

You might want to elicit some of that self control you claim to be so good at then, but here on the forums instead of in game.

  • Like 6
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I asked about these some time ago, and was wondering if TFP would actually include info explaining things the Tool is geared more for in this case breaking up stuff and not always will these be used in Melee but I understand some players will.

 

Is block damage the indication of how much stuff we get when we break down stuff ?

 

This is what I am confused about and consequently I still do not know which out the two is better.

 

Image1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

So what, REAL castles where build with thick walls and the understanding that attackers would definitely target the weakest spot on their walls. And attackers focused on it. And they were built so the defenders could shoot on the attackers while they were focusing their attention on getting the wall breached. Oh look, that is just what works perfectly in this game too. You are perfectly fine with such a castle, definitely on default difficulty. And like reality, if the archers don't do their job, the attackers might actually breach the wall and enter the castle.

 

 

 

I want boiling oil!  LOL  although if you guys give the zombies those climbing ladder things that people used to use to go over the walls ... siege ladders I think they were called?  Or catapults...  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Demandred1957 said:

whatever. was just pointing out that would hash out if it's a exploit or not really quick.

yeah I think the swimming zom's is broken.

It's a fantasy game based on movie monsters, but still..

no other media that i'm aware of has ever had SWIMMING zombies..

It's op, and immersion breaking for sure.

I know tons of LIVING people that can't swim.. And these undead corpses can do it faster than a athlete...

Dead bodies float though, so all the other zombie fiction completely got it wrong.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Kalen said:

So the problem isn't necessarily nerd poling, its that you don't like people finding ways to avoid zombies?    Because people could just as easily do what you're saying using 2 columns of frames..... or even concrete blocks if you don't like the re-usability of frames.    So removing nerd poling wouldn't really accomplish what you''re complaining about here.

 

Again, not really a nerd poling issue, as this can be accomplished without nerd poling.

 

Ok, so this really clarifies your point.... it's not nerd poling thats the issue.... you don't like wooden frames.   Just because you can pick them up?    So you probably feel the same way about hay bales or rebar?     No offence, but this sounds an awful lot like "Everyone should play my way, because I do it 'right'"  Games don't really work like that.

Most games don't have a hollow box that has unlimited uses that helps them beat the game. Zero survival games have this.

'So the problem isn't necessarily nerd poling' - you described scenarios that would have costed you resources, at least it costed you something. In the current state it costs you nothing, nerd pole up, E pick up down. Even a ladder costs you resources. If you look later where I was talking with Toban there are ways that player made blocks can be cleaned up by the server every however many days. So it will cost you every time you want to go pull off your marble staircase to loot.

'not really a nerd poling issue, as this can be accomplished without nerd poling.' - The base you could do it with a gyrocopter but at the risk of losing your gyrocopter, again there is a cost instead of none. Also some of that is just general issues with the powers of the frame.

 

'Ok, so this really clarifies your point' - I don't like anything you can stack and E pick up making no cost to the player. Again most games and survival games don't allow this at all. But of course single me out cause you think it proves your point.

Edited by STyK_ (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Jay_ombie said:

I asked about these some time ago, and was wondering if TFP would actually include info explaining things the Tool is geared more for in this case breaking up stuff and not always will these be used in Melee but I understand some players will.

 

Is block damage the indication of how much stuff we get when we break down stuff ?

 

This is what I am confused about and consequently I still do not know which out the two is better.

 

Image1.jpg

block damage just means how fast you damage the block your breaking apart, higher block damage, faster breaking, and you get resources faster, i don't think it affects the amount u get but i could be wrong on that one, i think only scavenger makes a difference in how much stuff, i could be wrong though

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Demandred1957 said:

True, I try to entertain people too. But it doesn't effect how I play. I just edit the boring stuff out.

But "showing off" doesn't really mean proving anything I think.

IMO showing off is more like "hey! look what I can do! Isn't that neat!?!"

LIke BMX guys doing tricks, Stunt pilots, Pool trick shot artist's, etc.

 

Or rednecks saying "Hey y'all, watch this!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, madmole said:

You might want to elicit some of that self control you claim to be so good at then, but here on the forums instead of in game.

You want me to back down when @Pegasustries to get me into another argument when people are asking questions to an argument that I'm the source of? Honestly I think they were trying to get me band since the topic has been brought up. @MechanicalLensdelivered evidence to support this in a post of his.

Edited by STyK_ (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Laz Man said:

And in the same response he also said this....

 

"Everything takes 2-3x longer than estimated..."

 

...so yah....but i hear ya....😅

Do you have a repro? If so please submit a bug report as it will ensure it gets fixed faster.  If you don't want to, please keep the sparky comments to yourself lol...

And we still missed my conservative estimate of August 15th, so A20 is shrinking by the day, or getting pushed to spring/summer 2021. Most people are working on A20 though so there is that.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, madmole said:

Nerd poling will not matter if you need a key from a zombie to unlock the loot chest. You'll have to go through the whole POI and hit a certain number of volumes before the special one spawns. We haven't done this yet, but it was talked about. Taking out nerd poling is a futile action because you can build ladders etc. Take out the incentive to nerd pole, problem solved.

I like that idea a lot.  I hope it can be added and it's not too much work to add.  I would think this would make almost everyone happy (presumably not the ones trying to cheat out the loot...). ❣️  

20 minutes ago, Kalen said:

So I do like the key idea some of the time.   It would get annoying if it was in every POI.   Additionally, you've built a pretty awesome, fully destructible, voxel world.   I'm a little disappointed that using the fact that the world IS fully destructible to, for example, break into a loot room is being categorized (by some people) as cheating or cheezing and that you're looking for ways to remove that ability.   

 

Personally, I do the dungeons following the intended path because I find it fun.... but, in my opinion, you shouldn't remove the ability to break your way into the loot room in every POI.  Use this key idea in some of them, not all.

 

That's a good point. 

 

Maybe only for the high end loot places ... which is actually kind of what I thought the discussion was about ... the big ones that have the super special loot rooms that some people are bypassing the entire poi to reach?  Maybe I'm confused (wouldn't be the first time) about what the intention was?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, STyK_ said:

You want me to back down when @Pegasustries to get me into another argument when people are asking questions to an argument that I'm the source of? Honestly I think they were trying to get me band since the topic has been brought up. @MechanicalLensdelivered evidence to support this in a post of his.

It wasn't evidence to support your ideas, you're twisting my own words here. What I'm saying is what's been said a million times: remove nerdpoling, and people will just find other ways to get to the main loot of a POI. End of discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Kalen said:

So I do like the key idea some of the time.   It would get annoying if it was in every POI.   Additionally, you've built a pretty awesome, fully destructible, voxel world.   I'm a little disappointed that using the fact that the world IS fully destructible to, for example, break into a loot room is being categorized (by some people) as cheating or cheezing and that you're looking for ways to remove that ability.   

 

Personally, I do the dungeons following the intended path because I find it fun.... but, in my opinion, you shouldn't remove the ability to break your way into the loot room in every POI.  Use this key idea in some of them, not all.

It would probably be for the highest tier POIs where there is a super chest involved. You could still grind your way through with a pickaxe, but it would be more obnoxious than just taking the intended path. I'd like to see auto turrets protecting loot myself, so even if you break in you get insta killed pretty much without deactivating them properly with a key card or something.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, MechanicalLens said:

It wasn't evidence to support your ideas, you're twisting my own words here. What I'm saying is what's been said a million times: remove nerdpoling, and people will just find other ways to get to the main loot of a POI. End of discussion.

No it was evidence to support trying to get me band.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, madmole said:

Don't take things out of context. He probably left out the fact that he had hordes every night or two so that may be why he had block damage reduced significantly. Devs don't need to be good at the game they need to be good at their job. There is a portion of the team myself included that does play the game a lot but an animator needs to be good at animating, not knowing every in and out of the game design or being awesome at playing the game. It helps to some degree some more than others but is only critical for a few people on the team such as system designers and people doing balance.

Not only that ... but having people of different skill levels on the development team can only help the game.  If everyone on the team was an Ace then the game would be unbalanced for players like me who really pretty much suck at hand/eye coordination.  If someone on the team who is perhaps not as good plays the game and says hey, this xyz mechanic is really unforgiving for new players then they know that they may need to work on it a bit more or add some more notebook entries to help explain it.

 

The game doesn't have to be all laid out to a new player either.  People are mentioning that the way the AI works isn't going to be something a new players knows and that they'll build bases that get destroyed.  Isn't that kind of the point?  Don't you remember your first base that you built that got obliterated by the enemy on the first blood moon?  What a thrilling/scary/pants wetting/enjoyable time that was!  (For me more the pants wetting ... less the thrilling ... but I'm a pansy) So you learned to do something different the next time.  There are approximately a trillion videos out there on how to play 7 Days.  There are websites devoted to it.  New players can watch the videos ... or they can experiment with what works.  Isn't that the fun of a game?  Figure out what works and what doesn't, finding your own play style?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, STyK_ said:

No it was evidence to support trying to get me band.

First, it's banned, not band. Secondly, I was just having some lighthearted fun, no offense intended.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, MechanicalLens said:

First, it's banned, not band. Secondly, I was just having some lighthearted fun, no offense intended.

sure

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, STyK_ said:

'So the problem isn't necessarily nerd poling' - you described scenarios that would have costed you resources, at least it costed you something. In the current state it costs you nothing, nerd pole up, E pick up down. Even a ladder costs you resources. If you look later where I was talking with Toban there are ways that player made blocks can be cleaned up by the server every however many days. So it will cost you every time you want to go pull off your marble staircase to loot.

So again, its not nerd poling per se, it's not using resources that bothers you.   Cool, people could do the same thing with a solid wooden block, would that make it ok?

 

19 minutes ago, STyK_ said:

'not really a nerd poling issue, as this can be accomplished without nerd poling.' - The base you could do it with a gyrocopter but at the risk of losing your gyrocopter, again there is a cost instead of none. Also some of that is just general issues with the powers of the frame.

Or with a ladder, or side by side columns that you just back and forth to

 

19 minutes ago, STyK_ said:

'Ok, so this really clarifies your point' - I don't like anything you can stack and E pick up making no cost to the player. Again most games and survival games don't allow this at all. But of course single me out cause you think it proves your point.

Oh please, don't play the martyr card.... I'm not singling you out.   We're having a discussion that you are participating in.   I'm just trying to understand your dislike of nerd poling.... so far every argument you've made shows that it's not nerd poling thats your problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...