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madmole

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50 minutes ago, madmole said:

I'd say in general that both have their purpose. I would not want to wait for looting to get me some decent tools, but that is my play style, so I typically dump points into miner and blacksmith so I can get blue tools ASAP. Early game crafting gets you what you need, but later game looting gets you what you want. Crafting holds a pretty strong place yet because you just can't always find a blue whatever, but you can craft one if you invest so I think it is fine this way.

Yeah I think it feels pretty great in general. I'd like to see a few polish points but overall it is in good shape.

This is actually the current "problem" we are running into.  Our group has spent a significant amount of time collecting weapon/armor/tool parts, increasing our crafting skills, etc.  However, now that we're starting to get drops for tier 6 stuff, it feels like that time and effort are a waste.  Not that it didn't serve its purpose at the time, it did.  But now?  There's no need to collect any (weapon/armor/tool) parts, because the only way to get something better is to loot it.  There's no point in the skills we've dropped points in, because... the only way to get something better is to loot it.

 

I'm not saying "the system is broken, change it all!"  but it would be nice if it didn't feel like a waste after a time. We can respec, I get it, but... it doesn't change that once you get to tier 6 drops at all, there's almost no point in crafting.  So, if there's something (and I don't claim to know what) that you can do to help make crafting at a higher tier retain some value, please do it.

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39 minutes ago, madmole said:

We are just not willing to push new stuff in when large sectors of the game are completely unpolished and need optimized and improved.

There is character R&D going on right now for new player outfits that replaces UMA. It just *MIGHT* work for bandits too so once players are overhauled then we can decide if bandits are skinned meshes like zombies, or assembled parts via pieces after the new player clothing/armor system is completed we can do some stress tests and see and make the right calls. Then bandits can sort of fall out of the character system instead of a separate effort.

I know this isn't an announcement or confirmed in any way but this is potentially very exciting.

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6 minutes ago, Trekkan said:

This is actually the current "problem" we are running into.  Our group has spent a significant amount of time collecting weapon/armor/tool parts, increasing our crafting skills, etc.  However, now that we're starting to get drops for tier 6 stuff, it feels like that time and effort are a waste.  Not that it didn't serve its purpose at the time, it did.  But now?  There's no need to collect any (weapon/armor/tool) parts, because the only way to get something better is to loot it.  There's no point in the skills we've dropped points in, because... the only way to get something better is to loot it.

 

I'm not saying "the system is broken, change it all!"  but it would be nice if it didn't feel like a waste after a time. We can respec, I get it, but... it doesn't change that once you get to tier 6 drops at all, there's almost no point in crafting.  So, if there's something (and I don't claim to know what) that you can do to help make crafting at a higher tier retain some value, please do it.

As long as you can get all your points back, then the game is not broken, per se, but it's more of a timing issue, when to turn into your "Final Form" using the "mind wipe" sauce.

 

Once you have a big farm, vehicles and can make steel then "wipe" and pour points in to your favorite 2-3 weapons.

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30 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

No, it's because you require immense strength to lift the frying pan, to stack the plates, and to carry the pot of boiling water from one side of the kitchen to the other. 😛

True - especially the good foods needs a really strong person for carry, see:

https://www.google.com/search?q=oktoberfest+bedienung+bier+rekord&tbm=isch&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiSsbn__JDrAhWPtKQKHY-EACgQrNwCKAB6BQgBENoB&biw=1654&bih=936

 

🍻

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27 minutes ago, Trekkan said:

This is actually the current "problem" we are running into.  Our group has spent a significant amount of time collecting weapon/armor/tool parts, increasing our crafting skills, etc.  However, now that we're starting to get drops for tier 6 stuff, it feels like that time and effort are a waste.  Not that it didn't serve its purpose at the time, it did.  But now?  There's no need to collect any (weapon/armor/tool) parts, because the only way to get something better is to loot it.  There's no point in the skills we've dropped points in, because... the only way to get something better is to loot it.

 

I'm not saying "the system is broken, change it all!"  but it would be nice if it didn't feel like a waste after a time. We can respec, I get it, but... it doesn't change that once you get to tier 6 drops at all, there's almost no point in crafting.  So, if there's something (and I don't claim to know what) that you can do to help make crafting at a higher tier retain some value, please do it.

Oh, you poor poor man. So you specced into shotguns crafting perk and now it is completely useless (EXCEPT FOR THAT TOTALLY USELESS 100% DAMAGE INCREASE!!!!!!!!!!). 😉

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1 hour ago, madmole said:

Yeah I think it feels pretty great in general. I'd like to see a few polish points but overall it is in good shape.

I have to disagree. This of course is personal opinion, but I find agility severely lacking. PoIs are not well designed for stealth - closet zombies, neccessary jumps, trigger events etc. Agility weapons also appear harder to find. And finally it has no utility perks that would improve resource gain.

 

Benefit I see is that it is most effective build for clearing high tier PoI. There it shines. I guess for higher difficulities as well. But honestly I have never went agility build from the get go. Which is shame, because pistols are my favorite weapon.

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7 minutes ago, Onarr said:

I have to disagree. This of course is personal opinion, but I find agility severely lacking. PoIs are not well designed for stealth - closet zombies, neccessary jumps, trigger events etc. Agility weapons also appear harder to find. And finally it has no utility perks that would improve resource gain.

 

Benefit I see is that it is most effective build for clearing high tier PoI. There it shines. I guess for higher difficulities as well. But honestly I have never went agility build from the get go. Which is shame, because pistols are my favorite weapon.

Parkour is almost over powered, to be honest.... I love that perk

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1 hour ago, Roland said:

When Madmole played his strength build for the first time he didn’t like having to invest in a different attribute to raise cooking.... ;)

Exactly how l feel about agility and having to invest in strength and fortitude to be self sufficient. Intel and perception feel this too I'm sure. I mean I can see one but both. Only way to balance that would be to give it it's own tree make making them cheaper then investing 3 into strength and 3 into fortitude, actually 5 after the perks you want, but I'm sure you guys don't want to do that.  

Edit: Make a pacifist class, Soccer mom, and put the master chef and living off the land there. At least then its under one tree making it cheaper. You'd need more to fill it out to suit that class but it would balance things out. 

 

Vending machine in the working stiffs didn't work again, 4th time in a row. Bug? On purpose?

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Im waiting to see what happens with the ai, like right now its working great, don't get me wrong, but having them attack the weakest point to get to you almost feels like an exploit, my last horde they simply bunched up and were easy to kill cause of the weak point, i hope someday the zombies get coded to simply attack player made blocks in general for some real damage, i rarely have to repair anything on my horde bases

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12 minutes ago, STyK_ said:

Exactly how l feel about agility and having to invest in strength and fortitude to be self sufficient. Intel and perception feel this too I'm sure. I mean I can see one but both. Only way to balance that would be to give it it's own tree make making them cheaper then investing 3 into strength and 3 into fortitude, actually 5 after the perks you want, but I'm sure you guys don't want to do that.  

 

Vending machine in the working stiffs didn't work again, 4th time in a row. Bug? On purpose?

You find seeds and seed recipes in loot. If you don't because of specific settings that never were mentioned here (😉) then relying on perks is obviously the better strategy. Balance is right, you just need a setting to get only 25% out of perk bonuses to be balanced again.

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, STyK_ said:

Exactly how l feel about agility and having to invest in strength and fortitude to be self sufficient. Intel and perception feel this too I'm sure. I mean I can see one but both. Only way to balance that would be to give it it's own tree make making them cheaper then investing 3 into strength and 3 into fortitude, actually 5 after the perks you want, but I'm sure you guys don't want to do that.  

Edit: Make a pacifist class, Soccer mom, and put the master chef and living off the land there. At least then its under one tree making it cheaper. You'd need more to fill it out to suit that class but it would balance things out. 

 

Vending machine in the working stiffs didn't work again, 4th time in a row. Bug? On purpose?

We've talked about this. I'm sure data shows strenght is ALWAYS chosen to some degree, while other attributes might not. Not a perfect system, but at least It's cheap. Like a socc... alright imma head out.

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8 minutes ago, meganoth said:

You find seeds and seed recipes in loot. If you don't because of specific settings that never were mentioned here (😉) then relying on perks is obviously the better strategy. Balance is right, you just need a setting to get only 25% out of perk bonuses to be balanced again.

0 seeds end of day 7 two hour days but now your going to say its my settings and shame on me for picking them. What ever it takes to defend whats already implemented.

I am making it work but it would be a hell of a lot easier being fortitude or strength your making those classes easy mod.

7 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

We've talked about this. I'm sure data shows strenght is ALWAYS chosen to some degree, while other attributes might not. Not a perfect system, but at least It's cheap. Like a socc... alright imma head out.

it was an idea, didn't say it was the best one but neither is what is currently in place

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26 minutes ago, Phoenixshade35 said:

Im waiting to see what happens with the ai, like right now its working great, don't get me wrong, but having them attack the weakest point to get to you almost feels like an exploit, my last horde they simply bunched up and were easy to kill cause of the weak point, i hope someday the zombies get coded to simply attack player made blocks in general for some real damage, i rarely have to repair anything on my horde bases

its the pathing. It would be more realistic to have them spread out hitting your base from all sides which you can make happen initially by sealing your base and having a uniform defense but as soon as that breaks they bunch up. Its AI difficulty scroll bar solution I've been pushing, destruction over pathing to the weakest point.

They are going to say its a tower defense game at the end of the day. To many people like just setting up an easy defense and having them all walk right in from one way. You maximize kills and xp, don't waste any zed lives setup correctly. Self-control and self-imposed handicaps are going to be the easy solution. I do my best to be ready to fight from all sides cause thats how I would have liked the game to be. All goes back to challenging yourself 👍.

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2 hours ago, madmole said:

We are just not willing to push new stuff in when large sectors of the game are completely unpolished and need optimized and improved.

There is character R&D going on right now for new player outfits that replaces UMA. It just *MIGHT* work for bandits too so once players are overhauled then we can decide if bandits are skinned meshes like zombies, or assembled parts via pieces after the new player clothing/armor system is completed we can do some stress tests and see and make the right calls. Then bandits can sort of fall out of the character system instead of a separate effort.

Thats pretty cool.  Sounds like a neat design and also efficient dev time if you guys can pull it off.  I personally don't mind waiting on bandits if the end result are player characters and bandits having some type of cohesion instead of being completely separate things...

 

...which may also allow for more emergent MP gameplay as players and npcs could potentially look very similar and have unexpected encounters... 😀

 

Edit: hopefully better then the UMA stuff that didn't work out...

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16 minutes ago, STyK_ said:

its the pathing. It would be more realistic to have them spread out hitting your base from all sides which you can make happen initially by sealing your base and having a uniform defense but as soon as that breaks they bunch up. Its AI difficulty scroll bar solution I've been pushing, destruction over pathing to the weakest point.

They are going to say its a tower defense game at the end of the day. To many people like just setting up an easy defense and having them all walk right in from one way. You maximize kills and xp, don't waste any zed lives setup correctly. Self-control and self-imposed handicaps are going to be the easy solution. I do my best to be ready to fight from all sides cause thats how I would have liked the game to be. All goes back to challenging yourself 👍.

oh i know, like my last horde i forgot to upgrade one block, so it was the weakest point, we all forget, i had my back to the one side where i could easily be hit and they still went for that point, i know pathing and its perfect for when u are in a poi, turn around and smack your infected, but horde night should be more random, they are frenzied, yes to your location but still frenzied

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17 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

The AI searching for the weakest point is part of the Tower Defense mechanic.

The point is you're supposed to exploit (to some degree) the AI pathing to build a base that funnels most of the zombies in one place and/or path.

i know thats why i did say its working great, but imagine a total random ai, where you would see them hitting pois because it was in their way instead of walking around it, would make the world interesting, hell imagine coming across a hole that was dug because they "thought" something was down there, dumb zombies can be fun too lol

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1 hour ago, STyK_ said:

0 seeds end of day 7 two hour days but now your going to say its my settings and shame on me for picking them. What ever it takes to defend whats already implemented.

I am making it work but it would be a hell of a lot easier being fortitude or strength your making those classes easy mod.

it was an idea, didn't say it was the best one but neither is what is currently in place

No, I just made some light fun of the fact that you mentioned your loot setting a bit too often. Actually I plan to use lower loot settings myself eventually. But first I want to wait until I'm sure the bugs with actual loot being less than the percentage suggests are not coming back.

 

But my OTHER point that your strategy has to be to buy perks instead of waiting for the loot when you decrease loot was me being absolutely serious. Lets assume the game is balanced at vanilla settings and going for the perk instead of waiting for the seeds to drop is just a decision between equal options. Then decreasing one of those options to be 4 times worse can't possibly be balanced anymore, quite obviously now buying the perk must be the tremenduously better option.

 

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Yeah, strength is really good, and probably does not really need heavy armor, cooking or either the sledge or club, heh. 

 

Agility is kinda cool, not sure about balance currently, but being able to sneak really well without a base is a nice alternative.  Random dog packs should probably not be able to zero in on  you when you are sneaking though... not sure if they do.  Parkour is amazing. 

 

Intelligence is really strong, but does not have a starter weapon so its usually a second pick, and charismatic nature could use a change.  I still like putting the last tier of barter as the last rank of charismatic nature. 

 

Perception is kinda meh, but depending on the balance of the wrench skill it could almost be on par with strength.  If you can harvest enough metal with it while questing, to build a base, you could follow the iron frame path of building.  I tried it once and it was okay, but having to get clay was a little lame.  Depending on the balance of metal pipes and stuff you get though, it could be really good, and wrenches are not bad weapons if you invest in it. 

 

I am not even sure about fortitude.  Definitely a lot of good stuff, but I usually do not grab much from it.  I used to always rush farming, but now I go intelligence for building second.  It is probably a perfect second choice for a baseless agility build, where you just run on foot all night fighting the horde.  I was going to try a build like that, but too busy playing my str/intel build atm. 

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23 minutes ago, meganoth said:

No, I just made some light fun of the fact that you mentioned your loot setting a bit too often. Actually I plan to use lower loot settings myself eventually but first want to wait until I'm sure the bugs with actual loot being less than the percentage suggests are not coming back.

 

But my OTHER point that your strategy has to be to buy perks instead of waiting for the loot when you decrease loot was me being absolutely serious. Lets assume the game is balanced at vanilla settings and going for the perk instead of waiting for the seeds to drop is just a decision between equal options. Then decreasing one of those options to be 4 times worse can't possibly be balanced anymore, quite obviously now buying the perk must be tremenduously better than waiting for the seeds to drop.

Tables are better, mega crush actually exists and not just one to put up on the wall as a trophy. Actually found 2 at once in my tips vid at the stripclub, and a tier 1 toilet pistol, if only I had some 9mm on me.
I do every time, I was just pointing out its costs 10-12 points for any other class out side those two classes. With a pacifist class, not fighting for this just solution, then everyone but that class has to put points in another tree to solve they're food problem. Then the pacifist class has to put points into another class for weapons cause it wouldn't have any. To me that's balanced. 'Charismatic nature' would make a good perk for that tree too, hell it could have 'from the shadows' too, I don't use it till endgame, its not really essential to the agility tree even on my settings.

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35 minutes ago, Phoenixshade35 said:

i know thats why i did say its working great, but imagine a total random ai, where you would see them hitting pois because it was in their way instead of walking around it, would make the world interesting, hell imagine coming across a hole that was dug because they "thought" something was down there, dumb zombies can be fun too lol

For wandering hordes that would be fun I guess, but for the Blood Moon hordes it would be a disaster IMO.

Imagine having to plan a base that can virtually be attacked from every side! It'd be a builder's nightmare lol

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2 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

For wandering hordes that would be fun I guess, but for the Blood Moon hordes it would be a disaster IMO.

Imagine having to plan a base that can virtually be attacked from every side! It'd be a builder's nightmare lol

It would be quite easy actually. Too easy. At the current damage potential of the zombies they could never breach a double concrete wall if every zombie attacked a different spot. So at a minimum their block damage has to be increased. Much damage all around the walls means that every horde night then needs 2 days of mining and boring repairs afterwards.

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37 minutes ago, pregnable said:

Yeah, strength is really good, and probably does not really need heavy armor, cooking or either the sledge or club, heh. 

 

Agility is kinda cool, not sure about balance currently, but being able to sneak really well without a base is a nice alternative.  Random dog packs should probably not be able to zero in on  you when you are sneaking though... not sure if they do.  Parkour is amazing. 

 

Intelligence is really strong, but does not have a starter weapon so its usually a second pick, and charismatic nature could use a change.  I still like putting the last tier of barter as the last rank of charismatic nature. 

 

Perception is kinda meh, but depending on the balance of the wrench skill it could almost be on par with strength.  If you can harvest enough metal with it while questing, to build a base, you could follow the iron frame path of building.  I tried it once and it was okay, but having to get clay was a little lame.  Depending on the balance of metal pipes and stuff you get though, it could be really good, and wrenches are not bad weapons if you invest in it. 

 

I am not even sure about fortitude.  Definitely a lot of good stuff, but I usually do not grab much from it.  I used to always rush farming, but now I go intelligence for building second.  It is probably a perfect second choice for a baseless agility build, where you just run on foot all night fighting the horde.  I was going to try a build like that, but too busy playing my str/intel build atm. 

IMO people are too much into specialization.

That's simply the wrong approach (at least for SP) since to survive you need skills from ALL attribute trees.

 

Think about it, most useful utility and weapon skills can be raised to Rank 3 pretty quick.

I know, people want to experience the higher levels of their favorite perks as soon as they can ... and that's where they fail to exploit the real potential of the perk system.

 

My idea is that up to level 30 or so you're supposed to only invest in survival skills and combat skills depending on what weapons/armor you've found.

Then, in mid to late game, when you have all sorts of stuff you've looted, you can choose what specialization you want/like more.

At that point you'll probably have already invested into Rank 3 of most attributes and the next steps would be to decide where to invest deeper.

5 minutes ago, meganoth said:

It would be quite easy actually. Too easy. At the current damage potential of the zombies they could never breach a double concrete wall if every zombie attacked a different spot. So at a minimum their block damage has to be increased. Much damage all around the walls means that every horde night then needs 2 days of mining and boring repairs afterwards.

I disagree.

 

As you may remember currently we have the "stacking" bonus that zombies get when there's more than one bashing on a wall. If you have to defend from too many directions at the same time, especially on later horde nights and/or with higher max-alive settings, you may "skip" (or just not notice in time) some of the zombies destroying part of your wall while you're busy handling the other sides.

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