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I support item degradation. I don't accept the delete all on death as a replacement because until I'm confident I won't die due to a bug or janky mechanics (excessive zombie reach on servers, for example) it just feels unfair. Also, I don't want to lose ALL my gear at the same time. I'm looking for a reason to keep looting after I've found all my top tier gear. I want to role play that after weeks or months of surviving against the hordes my items break down. This idea of "play 'til you get bored then restart" is so disappointing and speaks to a lack of end game design. I hope this mentality is more so because end game content is coming and not that it's the intended way to play.

 

For the record, I do restart fairly early - usually around day 50. I'm invested in my character and world but looting is what really drives me in this game. To get to a point where the only option is to sell everything is boring. There's no longer any choice in that.

Edited by jorbascrumps (see edit history)
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8 hours ago, Roland said:

I did let you know. I like it. I played with degradation in earlier alphas and I liked it. I do play delete all on death and I like it.

 

Doubling the durability of everything and disabling repair might be an interesting idea I'd be willing to try. Throwing away stuff willingly is okay but just like death is death there is a big difference in the feel of it when you know you're not in control. It's not that I can't do it but when the universe created by the game is in charge instead of me it changes it. You must know what I'm talking about since you want to add a death is death option into the game eventually.

 

I can do all those those things and have done them but I don't need to do them to "see if it's fun". I already know that it is.

Mod makers need hooks to make the mods-- at least those of us who are limited to xml edits. Modding out is always easier than modding in. I'd rather see an inoccuous version added that isn't offensive to anyone. THEN those who are going to be offended by anything can mod it out and those of us who want it even more impactful CAN mod it to be so. But it sounds like Madmole has categorized the whole idea as sharp sticks. If I'm a driving force behind this suggestion then he is the mass of bloodmoon vultures stopping me in my tracks. :)

No we had gun parts and repair used parts to repair and improve each part. On one hero item it probably wasn't horribly tedious. Now take that idea with anything that allows mods, and go wide with it. See how much fun it is swapping 4 mods after hundreds of clicks constantly. It is real easy to test, just don't use a repair kit in  your next game. No mods needed. Use your dead is dead style of self control to implement this. The later your game the worse it is going to feel because when you have 3-4 mods changing an item for a better one gets painful, and we unlikely going to improve that whole experience.

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9 hours ago, madmole said:

It is just more crap to confuse players with IMO. Not everyone plays the game long games like you guys do, most people wouldn't even notice it because they just upgrade, upgrade, upgrade.... then they are end game and quit or restart. I don't actually repair my stuff that much, I replace it after about 1 or 2 repairs max. I don't know the exact number of times, but most of my repair kits go to items I find and I repair them to sell them for max xp and dukes. I don't think repair comes into play except on horde nights or lengthy mining sessions. Maybe early game that lame stone axe needs repaired often... but I could just as well craft another, and often I do, because I level, and craft all new stone tools, clubs etc. Repair isn't something we actually do that much. By the time my armor is shot, I have new stuff. Repair isn't really a big part of the game, so I don't think it is worth bothering with. It wouldn't really change the experience that much IMO.

 

Hi MM,

 

I get restarting another playthrough and doing it again can be fun but continuing on is also a fun adventure that is enjoyable.

 

For example, my brother and I love exploring and leveling and know once the game finally goes gold we will continue to play our worlds even after beating the main quest.  I will definitely be doing some modding so we can keep playing 7d2d for as long as possible....at least until 7d2d2 comes out....🤣

 

Edit: hopefully legendary items will be enough to keep looting still relevant/fun after players have peaked out in the looting game.

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)
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10 hours ago, EggsAisle said:

Not a fan of permanent degradation. It undercuts the sense of accomplishment ("good work, here's a temporary power-up!" just isn't as exciting) and discourages people from using them. The trade-off is that you potentially undercut future discoveries, like in Roland's example of how finding a blue M-60 isn't that exciting when you already have one. Speaking for myself here: I don't find that a huge problem. I'm okay if the loot hunt ends at some point, because I feel like I've made progress. It's annoying to be playing in a sandbox and have to keep re-earning all the cool toys, y'know? 

 

 

 

 

Yes, between killing your accomplishments and inventory tetris of swapping mods I can't see it as anything but adding more grind to slow people down. There is nothing wrong with reaching end game. The hordes grow in numbers/difficulty and players have enough stuff to worry about late game, time is precious.

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11 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

Is there a reason why we can wrench couches? We get the same amount of materials whether we wrench or simply axe them.

Yeah. If it gave us 1 mechanical as opposed to "axing" them I would understand. 

 

Because deleting the wrenching option altogether could upset the streamlined gameplay design . Also, the public water dispensers for disabled people that are in game in many POIs should be wrenchable and give the same resources as either pipe wheels or toilets.

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10 hours ago, madmole said:

It is a problem for those who want a real challenge (probably a fair amount if not majority of players) and being easily safe with exploits removes the incentive to keep playing.

Think the majority of people need to learn self control then..

If something is a "exploit" and they know it, then they can just not do that....

Kinda like whoever it was posting that they dbl dip on the poi quest resets all the time, but find it boring and a cheat and want it removed....

I couldn't believe someone would post something that dumb..

If you think it's a exploit to run away (also called a tactical retreat) then don't do it...

If you think it's a exploit to hide from the horde then don't do it..

All you are doing is limiting how players can play the game.

Personally, I think if you are not playing Permadeath/Dead is Dead, then you got no right to ask for the game to be harder to play/or make it impossible to avoid the horde.

 

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5 hours ago, Kattla said:

Players would find riding out the horde night to not be a challenge, and try out another way the next time. Players who genuinly want a challenge will find it, be it by method, option or mod/modlet. For players wanting a challenge, riding out the horde night was never a problem, since they'd choose more challenging methods in the first place.

 

Beeing chased up on a rooftop and quit the game because a simple trick fooled the zombies. And afterwards introduce a system that makes the zombies ten times easier to fool around, not to mention making every POI like a fortified gun, tool and food store. And very often place those high value items high up.. Perhaps it was not a lack of challenge that caused the flying Dumbos, hmmm? 🤭

 

Well, that explain why someone said the reason for flying Dumbos was the some of the devs having a problem. My apology to that person, i think i might have overlooked his deeper logic😌. I apology, Jax. And no, i am neutral on the vultures attacking player-ridden vehicles on horde night, i just did not see a logic in it.

 

I think i gonna let this dead horse rest though. Much funnier beating (un)dead bears.

POis were a joke too. 3 seconds to loot one house, next. How was that engaging? Anything deemed too easy or an inferior experience gets worked on. No offense but your arguments are emotionally driven and have no logic.

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It would be really interesting if there was a meaningful trade-off between keeping your best weapons fully repaired versus trying to find better weapons. As an example, you could change some POIs to have a higher loot quality bonus, but massively fewer "loot-room" containers. 

Edited by Dimpy (see edit history)
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23 minutes ago, PoloPoPo said:

When using left click attack with a ratchet on radiators it shows the hitting animation instead of the rotating motion. Should not be like that I think.

i think it has been like that ever sense Power attacks where a thing!

 

TBH i don't know how you can do a "power move" with a impact driver!

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Repair with just repair kit: loses a bit of durability, but not Q level (no point is screwing with that)

Repair with kit and x number of parts: no durability loss.

Repair with kit and xy number of parts: restore lost durability.

Even if broken, above would apply.

 

On horde night, I do sometimes have to make emergency repairs to the guns.

Fine.  I don't keep the spare gunparts on me, but, could keep a few if needed.

depends on the durability loss.

 

Lower durability means I gotta fix it more often, means lower dura.. so...

 

 

Smiple in theory, no clue whatsoever about how hard to implement.

 

Or, could just leave things as they are.  :D

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Dimpy said:

It would be really interesting if there was a meaningful trade-off between keeping your best weapons fully repaired versus trying to find better weapons. As an example, you could change some POIs to have a higher loot quality bonus, but massively fewer "loot-room" containers. 

i like the idea but at the same time i got to agree with Madmole.

 

 

its a mix for me :)

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59 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

Hi MM,

 

I get restarting another playthrough and doing it again can be fun but continuing on is also a fun adventure that is enjoyable.

 

For example, my brother and I love exploring and leveling and know once the game finally goes gold we will continue to play our worlds even after beating the main quest.  I will definitely be doing some modding so we can keep playing 7d2d for as long as possible....at least until 7d2d2 comes out....🤣

 

Edit: hopefully legendary items will be enough to keep looting still relevant/fun after players have peaked out in the looting game.

Legendary will be sort of like finding another tier, or be how a pink stone axe is compared to a brown iron pick. You might see a yellow legendary Iron pick that is arguably better than a pink steel pick. A choice!

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47 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

Is there a reason why we can wrench couches? We get the same amount of materials whether we wrench or simply axe them.

There are no bolts or hardware in a couch, its just wood with fabric really.

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2 minutes ago, Dimpy said:

Which MM opinion are you refering to?

Quote

Yes, between killing your accomplishments and inventory tetris of swapping mods I can't see it as anything but adding more grind to slow people down. There is nothing wrong with reaching end game. The hordes grow in numbers/difficulty and players have enough stuff to worry about late game, time is precious- Madmole/mole of Mad

 

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5 minutes ago, Demandred1957 said:

Think the majority of people need to learn self control then..

I read this statement over and over again here but sorry guys, that is an utter bs "argument".

 

It is the developers' decision whether one can avoid horde night on a vehicle or not. It is the developers' decision whether one can sit on top of pop&pills hospital for consecutive horde nights without any repairing in between and being save or not. If they decide that their game is not meant to be played like that they have to find a method to make these things not work anymore.

 

The game is called "7D2D" with reference to horde coming every seventh day. If a player decides not to switch horde nights completely off there should not be any way of avoiding horde completely without any preparation. And it is the game designers' task to ensure that. Not the players' who should impose imaginary rules on themselves.

 

Surely, there should be a lot of things left to a player's own devices since it is an open-world game after all. Some strategies turn out to be more easy or effective than others and players can choose between them. But not a single choice should be as game changing as avoiding horde unpunished or game changing in another way. Another example: If you are able to nerd pole without any effort to a POI's main loot that is game changing as well and should not be possible from a game design's perspective. 

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17 minutes ago, Demandred1957 said:

Think the majority of people need to learn self control then..

If something is a "exploit" and they know it, then they can just not do that....

Kinda like whoever it was posting that they dbl dip on the poi quest resets all the time, but find it boring and a cheat and want it removed....

I couldn't believe someone would post something that dumb..

If you think it's a exploit to run away (also called a tactical retreat) then don't do it...

If you think it's a exploit to hide from the horde then don't do it..

All you are doing is limiting how players can play the game.

Personally, I think if you are not playing Permadeath/Dead is Dead, then you got no right to ask for the game to be harder to play/or make it impossible to avoid the horde.

 

TFP's aim is to close any super cheesy loop holes on survival. Stun locked bears, driving safely from hordes with zero effort are good examples where we need to resolve it. You can't expect a player to use self restraint.

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6 minutes ago, PoloPoPo said:

The game is called "7D2D" with reference to horde coming every seventh day. If a player decides not to switch horde nights completely off there should not be any way of avoiding horde completely without any preparation. And it is the game designers' task to ensure that. Not the players' who should impose imaginary rules on themselves.

The grind to get the vehicles is itself the "preparation" for the horde..

Also parking it nearby full of gas, and fully repaired.

All of those things take time, and should not be trivialized.

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39 minutes ago, Demandred1957 said:

Think the majority of people need to learn self control then..

If something is a "exploit" and they know it, then they can just not do that....

Kinda like whoever it was posting that they dbl dip on the poi quest resets all the time, but find it boring and a cheat and want it removed....

I couldn't believe someone would post something that dumb..

If you think it's a exploit to run away (also called a tactical retreat) then don't do it...

If you think it's a exploit to hide from the horde then don't do it..

All you are doing is limiting how players can play the game.

Personally, I think if you are not playing Permadeath/Dead is Dead, then you got no right to ask for the game to be harder to play/or make it impossible to avoid the horde.

 

That doesn't work for multiplayer. Self-control can't be the answer for everything and everyone. If a world doesn't have set rules and a way to enforce them there will be people who will exploit for no another reason then their own self-interest or harm someone else's, some people just want to see the world burn.

Edited by STyK_ (see edit history)
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5 minutes ago, PoloPoPo said:

I read this statement over and over again here but sorry guys, that is an utter bs "argument".

 

It is the developers' decision whether one can avoid horde night on a vehicle or not. It is the developers' decision whether one can sit on top of pop&pills hospital for consecutive horde nights without any repairing in between and being save or not. If they decide that their game is not meant to be played like that they have to find a method to make these things not work anymore.

 

The game is called "7D2D" with reference to horde coming every seventh day. If a player decides not to switch horde nights completely off there should not be any way of avoiding horde completely without any preparation. And it is the game designers' task to ensure that. Not the players' who should impose imaginary rules on themselves.

 

Surely, there should be a lot of things left to a player's own devices since it is an open-world game after all. Some strategies turn out to be more easy or effective than others and players can choose between them. But not a single choice should be as game changing as avoiding horde unpunished or game changing in another way. Another example: If you are able to nerd pole without any effort to a POI's main loot that is game changing as well and should not be possible from a game design's perspective. 

This is pretty much how I feel about it.

It is our job to decide what is too easy and what seems like a reasonable tactic to survive. Everything has a time/material/item cost to it.

 

It is fine to further self impose/role play restrictions beyond vanilla, or mod it, or mess with settings but the stock vanilla game should be an increasing challenge to survive each 7 days. Of course we give tools and loot and perks to keep up with or exceed that challenge and a variety of ways to do it. What methods you use are up to your play style and there will always be debates about which are most effective, what feel cheesy, etc.

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3 minutes ago, madmole said:

This is pretty much how I feel about it.

It is our job to decide what is too easy and what seems like a reasonable tactic to survive. Everything has a time/material/item cost to it.

 

It is fine to further self impose/role play restrictions beyond vanilla, or mod it, or mess with settings but the stock vanilla game should be an increasing challenge to survive each 7 days. Of course we give tools and loot and perks to keep up with or exceed that challenge and a variety of ways to do it. What methods you use are up to your play style and there will always be debates about which are most effective, what feel cheesy, etc.

Speaking of "cheesy", will the spider zombie's hitbox or attack pattern be adjusted or whatever so that they don't attack a block and have most of their body stuck inside it? :) Perhaps they could simply stand back on all fours and swing at it with one of their arms. Trust me, having to deal with a spider zombie with its head and most of its torso embedded in a solid block is a little annoying, I'm not going to lie.

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