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madmole

Alpha 19 Dev Diary

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20 minutes ago, Daruma said:

Alright. I had to say something at this point. 

 

I game on PC and console. I own and enjoy the game on console. I will not be purchasing it on PC until TFP becomes a little more responsive to the community that supports their work.

 

To create a game that is obviously centered around building and then lambast people who enjoy that aspect of the game is a little childish. I find the "2% vanity builder" stat to be highly suspect. I mean, c'mon - the very first description of the game I read, written by TFP, described it as a "voxel based zombie survival game." It really sounds like your feelings are a bit hurt over the fact your user base isn't playing the game exactly as you would like them to. Are you developing a game for others to enjoy, or for yourself to enjoy vicariously by dictating play styles that you don't (for some strange reason) agree with?

 

I think you're alienating a good portion of your fans at this point. Its a little ironic criticizing that style of play with a handle like 'madmole'. And to push the responsibility off on modders to "fix" what is obviously shortcomings in the core game itself is a little ridiculous. 

 

As I said - I love the game. I'd love to see it get to a place on PC where I could purchase and enjoy it for what I wanted it to be and what it was initially described as. Its just not there unfortunately. As I heard posted on a separate forum...if I wanted a standard FPS zombie game where the focus was on zombie hunting and looting, I have many other, more polished options. 

So you're judging the game to be "centered around building" and you've never even played it? Yes, I mean what I said. Playing it on console is not even remotely playing the same game anymore.

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2 hours ago, madmole said:

Yeah I wish we could just force two voxels in the same space. Who cares?

This is actually a specific topic that I want to talk about. Voxel-based games can support multiple voxels in a single block space, the minecraft modding community does it via various multipart APIs. Unfortunately, based on previous comments you (I think? maybe it was another dev?) have made, it would probably require block entities that require individual draw calls which are inefficient. It basically requires one block that acts as a container for the other blocks and some mechanics that control which blocks can simultaneously occupy the same place. Means you can do things like have a block that has bars on both sides and a satchel in the middle.

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29 minutes ago, pregnable said:

Well I meant to mention that.  I think I am on day 12 or 13... the way I play I usually power level, so maybe the balance is right. 

 

Nah, you can kinda bypass RNG with certain builds. 

 

That build I start strength and get miner and motherload asap, and I use the stone axe as melee.  I find the trader and do quests if they are not stupid far away and then have a cobblestone base good enough for the 7 day horde before the start of day 2. 

 

Then I make a blunderbuss and iron fire axe(for a melee weapon, when I can) and start questing during the day and building and digging at night. 

 

I also will take points in intel for cement mixer and forge and start spamming concrete asap. 

251570_screenshots_20200726033436_1.jpg

I don't build on day 1 because then you have to mine with poor tools and low perks. I just loot until day 5 and by then I'll have a forge and can craft iron tools and have enough stone left over from mining gunpowder (at night) to build a nice base. At any rate unless you are looting daily you are not going to have a lot of parts.

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Thanks for the polite response. I honestly expected less cordiality. 

 

I love the game. As does my wife. When we were looking for a co-op survival game that checked all the boxes, there was 7 Days. Literally nothing else had everything we wanted in that genre. 

 

But make no mistake - the big draw for us (and I have to assume more than 2% of other users) was building an effective base to "beat the hord", so to speak. It really seems like some of the updates I've seen on the PC end were implemented specifically to thwart that style of play. I can see and understand the flip-side of that too... just think it's possible to cater to both play styles at once. 

 

Again.. love the game. 

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4 minutes ago, Darinth said:

This is actually a specific topic that I want to talk about. Voxel-based games can support multiple voxels in a single block space, the minecraft modding community does it via various multipart APIs. Unfortunately, based on previous comments you (I think? maybe it was another dev?) have made, it would probably require block entities that require individual draw calls which are inefficient. It basically requires one block that acts as a container for the other blocks and some mechanics that control which blocks can simultaneously occupy the same place. Means you can do things like have a block that has bars on both sides and a satchel in the middle.

Na, programming just needs to force two shapes and colliders into one space. It isn't any more draw calls than before, just more colliders and geo.

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8 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

So you're judging the game to be "centered around building" and you've never even played it? Yes, I mean what I said. Playing it on console is not even remotely playing the same game anymore.

Lol - and here comes the fanboy. 

 

Console or PC, my money is just as green. And yes - I'm speaking on the PC. You're assuming because I refuse to purchase it on PC in it's current state that I haven't played the PC version?

 

Sounds like a fanboy assumption. 😉

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2 minutes ago, Daruma said:

Thanks for the polite response. I honestly expected less cordiality. 

 

I love the game. As does my wife. When we were looking for a co-op survival game that checked all the boxes, there was 7 Days. Literally nothing else had everything we wanted in that genre. 

 

But make no mistake - the big draw for us (and I have to assume more than 2% of other users) was building an effective base to "beat the hord", so to speak. It really seems like some of the updates I've seen on the PC end were implemented specifically to thwart that style of play. I can see and understand the flip-side of that too... just think it's possible to cater to both play styles at once. 

 

Again.. love the game. 

No not at all. If you haven't played on PC, then building is tons better than it was on console. TONS. I thought you were referring to the "we can't have all the blocks the cm menu has" stuff. Obviously you need a base to defend yourself, a place to craft. I build all kinds of bases, I think the building is 10x better than any game out there to be honest in terms of how creative you can get and end result is pretty gratifying. Building is shippable but I think we will improve it some more yet.
 

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1 minute ago, madmole said:

Na, programming just needs to force two shapes and colliders into one space. It isn't any more draw calls than before, just more colliders and geo.

I would absolutely love to see multi-part blocks implemented. It's one of those consistent frustrations for both myself and some of my other players to be able to put bars on two sides of the same block space. It's probably my personal priority 2 as far as 'things that just need to be here for basic game functionality'. Priority 1 is multiple people being able to access a chest at the same time.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, madmole said:

No not at all. If you haven't played on PC, then building is tons better than it was on console. TONS. I thought you were referring to the "we can't have all the blocks the cm menu has" stuff. Obviously you need a base to defend yourself, a place to craft. I build all kinds of bases, I think the building is 10x better than any game out there to be honest in terms of how creative you can get and end result is pretty gratifying. Building is shippable but I think we will improve it some more yet.
 

I have to ask then - and honest question... sincerely not trying to be confrontational..

 

What was the deal with the digging zombies? It seems like that aspect was custom designed to throw a big wrench in the gears of people with underground bases that had effectively neutralized the horde threat.

Edited by Daruma (see edit history)

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13 minutes ago, madmole said:

Na, programming just needs to force two shapes and colliders into one space. It isn't any more draw calls than before, just more colliders and geo.

Never knew that was a thing.  I wonder how challenging that be to program...sounds like a wonderful feature for not just players but the level designers as well.

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24 minutes ago, madmole said:

I don't build on day 1 because then you have to mine with poor tools and low perks. I just loot until day 5 and by then I'll have a forge and can craft iron tools and have enough stone left over from mining gunpowder (at night) to build a nice base. At any rate unless you are looting daily you are not going to have a lot of parts.

 

Yeah I try to do a bit of both, but you can get to 4/4 miner and mother load really fast just building at the start.  I always have a large mine under my base at a 45 degree angle down to bedrock early game with just a stone axe.  I almost never tech up beyond stone tools.

 

This current world I was really unlucky though... all of my trader quests were like 1,500+ away(no dig quests), so I was like nope and did extra building for a day.  Been looting constantly since day 8 though. 

 

Usually when the quests are not all 1,500-2,000 away I will quest most of the day and do my building and mining at night. 

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19 minutes ago, Daruma said:

Thanks for the polite response. I honestly expected less cordiality. 

 

I love the game. As does my wife. When we were looking for a co-op survival game that checked all the boxes, there was 7 Days. Literally nothing else had everything we wanted in that genre. 

 

But make no mistake - the big draw for us (and I have to assume more than 2% of other users) was building an effective base to "beat the hord", so to speak. It really seems like some of the updates I've seen on the PC end were implemented specifically to thwart that style of play. I can see and understand the flip-side of that too... just think it's possible to cater to both play styles at once. 

 

Again.. love the game. 

Well, building a defense base and building a VANITY base are different things.

 

5 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

Never knew that was a thing.  I wonder how challenging that be to program...sounds like a wonderful feature for not just players but the level designers as well.

and the death sentence for Fataal

 

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Posted (edited)

 

13 minutes ago, Daruma said:

I have to ask then - and honest question... sincerely not trying to be confrontational..

 

What was the deal with the digging zombies? It seems like that aspect was custom designed to throw a big wrench in the gears of people with underground bases that had effectively neutralized the hord threat.

Were you aware that it was once a thing where a player could dig a 3 vowel hole in the ground and cover himself and be completely immune from any threat?

 

As been stated many times before, the devs don't go out of their way looking for ways to make  players lives harder.  They focus on unintended AI behavior and fix accordingly.

 

People just get way too attached to X strategy and get upset when it no longer works.  I can understand the frustration but this is early access and should expect those type of changes...

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)

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1 minute ago, meganoth said:

Well, building a defense base and building a VANITY base are different things.

 

On a fundamental level are they, though?

 

I'm not talking about a replica of the Sistine Chapel or anything, but I don't think wanting a functional and at the same time attractive/well decorated base should be mutually exclusive? And that is kind of missing the point. 

 

At the end of the day, building is building. If that's the aspect of the game I want to center around, rather than running around and looting POI'S, I would be a little angry at updates that, on the surface at least, seem to be intentionally nerfing my ability to play that way. 

4 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

Were you aware that it was once a thing where a player could dig a 3 vowel hole in the ground and cover himself and be completely immune from any threat?

 

As been stated many times before, the devs don't go out of their way looking for ways to make  players lives harder.  They focus on unintended AI behavior and fix accordingly.

 

People just get way too attached to X strategy and get upset when it no longer works.  I can understand the frustration but this is early access and should expect changes.

The "3 vowel hidding space" is definitely an issue. One I'm not sure I'd have a good answer to. That being said, I would have liked to see something that struck a middle ground. Thwarting obvious attempts to "game the game mechanics" while at the same time, not completely invalidating 70+ in-game days of building a vast bunker complex. 😛

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11 minutes ago, Daruma said:

On a fundamental level are they, though?

 

I'm not talking about a replica of the Sistine Chapel or anything, but I don't think wanting a functional and at the same time attractive/well decorated base should be mutually exclusive? And that is kind of missing the point. 

 

At the end of the day, building is building. If that's the aspect of the game I want to center around, rather than running around and looting POI'S, I would be a little angry at updates that, on the surface at least, seem to be intentionally nerfing my ability to play that way. 

The "3 vowel hidding space" is definitely an issue. One I'm not sure I'd have a good answer to. That being said, I would have liked to see something that struck a middle ground. Thwarting obvious attempts to "game the game mechanics" while at the same time, not completely invalidating 70+ in-game days of building a vast bunker complex. 😛

Last I checked, they added a junk sledges, and made blade traps that don't trigger Demolishers.  Probably a great time to start playing again for players who shelved the game to try and innovate a new defense strategy.  The streamers out there don't seem to have any problems coming up with new innovative designs so there is no reason others cannot.  Isn't that one reason we play games?  To figure out ways to overcome the challenges they present?

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3 hours ago, STyK_ said:

part of my cheese rules, who builds and repairs in fight! I'm not a fortnite fan obviously. More suspense my way. It is a little scary after going and repairing and see how damaged the block got though and I didn't see it happening. Life could be easier but where is the fun in that.

 

Edit: I hope you guys were able to do something with that bug I noticed, I wasted alot of ammo confirming something wasn't right.

LOL  If I was in a castle and the barbarians were trying to beat down the door I'd surely be trying to shore up that door in the middle of the fight.  

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1 hour ago, Daruma said:

Alright. I had to say something at this point. 

 

I game on PC and console. I own and enjoy the game on console. I will not be purchasing it on PC until TFP becomes a little more responsive to the community that supports their work.

 

To create a game that is obviously centered around building and then lambast people who enjoy that aspect of the game is a little childish. I find the "2% vanity builder" stat to be highly suspect. I mean, c'mon - the very first description of the game I read, written by TFP, described it as a "voxel based zombie survival game." It really sounds like your feelings are a bit hurt over the fact your user base isn't playing the game exactly as you would like them to. Are you developing a game for others to enjoy, or for yourself to enjoy vicariously by dictating play styles that you don't (for some strange reason) agree with?

 

I think you're alienating a good portion of your fans at this point. Its a little ironic criticizing that style of play with a handle like 'madmole'. And to push the responsibility off on modders to "fix" what is obviously shortcomings in the core game itself is a little ridiculous. 

 

As I said - I love the game. I'd love to see it get to a place on PC where I could purchase and enjoy it for what I wanted it to be and what it was initially described as. Its just not there unfortunately. As I heard posted on a separate forum...if I wanted a standard FPS zombie game where the focus was on zombie hunting and looting, I have many other, more polished options. 

As if 7D2D doesn't already have a very complex building system? No other survival game on the market even comes close - Rust, Ark... Minecraft can't even hold a candle imo (especially in terms of available shapes and deco), and that's saying something. You've already found that mythical unicorn at the end of the rainbow. Sorry, but good luck finding anything more unique than that.

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3 hours ago, madmole said:

 

There is another exp coming for sure. If that tests well it can become stable.

Gimmie gimmie gimmie gimmie gimmie!  LOL  

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2 minutes ago, Daruma said:

On a fundamental level are they, though?

 

I'm not talking about a replica of the Sistine Chapel or anything, but I don't think wanting a functional and at the same time attractive/well decorated base should be mutually exclusive? And that is kind of missing the point. 

 

At the end of the day, building is building. If that's the aspect of the game I want to center around, rather than running around and looting POI'S, I would be a little angry at updates that, on the surface at least, seem to be intentionally nerfing my ability to play that way. 

I'm a base builder but I never ever felt the need to get some special block from creative menue. I never add pictures, refrigerators, kitchen cupboards or stoves in my bases. In other words I am building 99% for functionality and the 1% visual embellishment is done with blocks I can simply craft. So when Madmole mentioned 2% vanity crafters I was sure to be in the 98% group.

 

Consequently having deco items from creative menue available in the main game (from trader or wrenching) is very low on my personal wish list. 

 

But you are talking now about digging zombies too. And even there all building is not equal. For someone trying to build a stylish bunker with living quarters digging zombies might be a nuisance and nerf. For me digging zombies were the precondition for wanting to build underground. Without the challenge in form of attacking zombies why even go there?

 

I built 2 horde bases and one crafting base in the underground, all of them after zombies started digging

 

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29 minutes ago, Daruma said:

I have to ask then - and honest question... sincerely not trying to be confrontational..

 

What was the deal with the digging zombies? It seems like that aspect was custom designed to throw a big wrench in the gears of people with underground bases that had effectively neutralized the horde threat.

Yes a horrible bug we lived with for years that was thankfully squashed. It is unfortunate some builder assumed the design was that underground was safe, it was never intended to be, it was just a bug that cropped up and didn't get fixed.

 

There shouldn't be any easy way to survive the hordes, nor anything guaranteed. There should be incentive to experiement and try things, and most things should have some form of success, but no easy way to be invincible. Just turn off horde night if that is what you want to do.

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2 hours ago, Gromit said:

Is that 2% from the data you've acquired so far? I would have expected the number of builders to be much higher than that.

The number of builders likely is higher, but the rest of us accept no as no and are using mods or creative menu to fix the problem as already suggested. 

 

The rest of you are busy beating that poor horse ... he's already dead, Jim, and I'm pretty sure continuing to beat him isn't going to get him back up again. But carry on.

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34 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

Never knew that was a thing.  I wonder how challenging that be to program...sounds like a wonderful feature for not just players but the level designers as well.

It would be for designers only, otherwise players would stack 10000 bars into one space and slow the fps and cheese the hordes. Another way to do it with zero colliders is to make it a "detail object" and it would parent to the voxel in the space and use the existing voxels collision and hit points and not contribute to block health. If we did it like that then maybe users could get it.

32 minutes ago, pregnable said:

 

Yeah I try to do a bit of both, but you can get to 4/4 miner and mother load really fast just building at the start.  I always have a large mine under my base at a 45 degree angle down to bedrock early game with just a stone axe.  I almost never tech up beyond stone tools.

 

This current world I was really unlucky though... all of my trader quests were like 1,500+ away(no dig quests), so I was like nope and did extra building for a day.  Been looting constantly since day 8 though. 

 

Usually when the quests are not all 1,500-2,000 away I will quest most of the day and do my building and mining at night. 

Why did to bedrock when the ore is right where you are?

28 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

Were you aware that it was once a thing where a player could dig a 3 vowel hole in the ground and cover himself and be completely immune from any threat?

 

As been stated many times before, the devs don't go out of their way looking for ways to make  players lives harder.  They focus on unintended AI behavior and fix accordingly.

 

People just get way too attached to X strategy and get upset when it no longer works.  I can understand the frustration but this is early access and should expect those type of changes...

And before that zombies dug, and dug hard, and would swiss cheese the ground under your base causing large sections to collapse. This was undesired too, so the fix to that caused the exploit to being safe you are referring to.

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53 minutes ago, madmole said:

I don't build on day 1 because then you have to mine with poor tools and low perks. I just loot until day 5 and by then I'll have a forge and can craft iron tools and have enough stone left over from mining gunpowder (at night) to build a nice base. At any rate unless you are looting daily you are not going to have a lot of parts.

 

Alphas past I used to loot until day 4, then mined up enough stone and clay, crafting it into cobble, to building myself a 9x9 or 11x11 tower to fight the horde at, eventually turning it into my main base of operations. Nowadays though, I've taken a humbler approach to things. I start off like usual, clearing out a small house isolated from a nearby town along a gravel path, boarding up the windows, replacing the doors, destroying all the deco and clutter, putting up lighting and laying down storage chests and eventually a forge and workbench, and using that as a temporary shelter for the first couple in-game weeks. I loot for the next 5 days, then I proceed to make a crude horde base (such as a ramp followed by a walkway, with iron bars between me and the zombies, usually positioned on the side of a large, flat wall of a building). After day 7, I continue looting until around day 11-12, after which I lay down the foundations for my actual base.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Pegasus said:

The number of builders likely is higher, but the rest of us accept no as no and are using mods or creative menu to fix the problem as already suggested. 

 

The rest of you are busy beating that poor horse ... he's already dead, Jim, and I'm pretty sure continuing to beat him isn't going to get him back up again. But carry on.

New forum users usually have not measured the pulse of most horses here yet, friendly veterans could inform them of the medical condition of individual horses with courtesy, right? 😉

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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