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Alpha 19 Dev Diary

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13 hours ago, Thecolours said:

What is the revenant? I visited the forums everyday and that is new to me. 

A theoretical special infected zombie possibly coming or hitting the cutting room floor for A20. People love him so far though.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/29/2020 at 9:40 PM, madmole said:

Awesome, be sure to share the link here. I'm building a pretty large castle in my current play through but it nowhere near done yet, but I finally have 4 walls and all the outer towers built. Hopefully I can move in soon :)

Hey Madmole, here is the link to the castle. I built it just for fun while waiting for the game to come out of experimental.

Just a FYI to anyone else that watches, the comments said in the video are just for fun. 

 

 

Edited by Toban
Forgot to put in the link haha (see edit history)
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11 hours ago, Roland said:

Balance. I think most people are discussing balance of the game because it is an interesting exercise and the final balance hasn’t been determined yet. I really doubt anyone is giving actual thought to how others play the game. When they say “people can double dip” they aren’t intending to stop “people” from having fun. They are calling into question the balance of the game. 
 

I think that allowing double dipping of a POI is out of balance for SP but probably not so very much for MP. Others disagree with me and voiced that double dipping along with quest sharing completely ruins the balance of the game for MP as well. 
 

Why have the discussion at all? Because, by all that his holy, the name of the freaking thread is “Developer’s Diary” and it is the exact place that is appropriate for players to call into question the balance of the game design and possibly hear an explanation from the developer. 
 

Why should a developer care whether the game can be played in an unbalanced way even if some find it fun to do?  That all depends on the goals of the creators of the game. They have to measure their desire to have an airtight ruleset for their game that is balanced towards giving the player a good challenge against what they feel is the most fun. 
 

But this IS the place to talk about it and it is not because anyone wants to ruin the game for anyone else. We want to question and debate and discuss alternatives and hopefully learn a thing or two from some very successful developers in the field. 

Double dipping completely ruins the balance? How so? You are digging up the sand outside. You are harvesting the cement mixer. You are going inside, looting and fighting off zombies. You could walk next door and, down the street to the next place, so on and so forth doing the exact same thing. The only advantage to double dipping is you don't to walk 10 meters to the next house, which could have all the same stuff. I don't see it as ruining any balance. It simply feels cheesy is all.

I'd like to solve it, but nobody can come up with something better than what we have. It isn't an easy problem. Your solution of a timer has way less freedom and what if someone is inside? Your timer of failing doom is counting down, and someone is in your POI, and you fail, after walking 2 hours to the POI and nothing you can do about it.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, madmole said:

A theoretical special infected zombie possibly coming or hitting the cutting room floor for A20. People love him so far though.

WELL WHAT DOES HE DO Mole of Mad?

 

 

and what other ideas of special zombies? COUGH Feral Crawler! COUGH

Edited by Adam the Waster (see edit history)
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10 hours ago, MatisJaximus said:

 

What some developers lose sight of is that they can, in many cases, provide both options to the player.  Examples are Loot Balance, the scaling of Game Stage, and the difficultly of obtaining loot.  You can easily add Advanced options that allow the player to modify the game so that is is more casual or hardcore.  Maybe some people prefer Stone tools, Iron Tools, and steel tools being based on Game stage; While others prefer to have a completely random loot experience.  This could be done with a 3 step slider for Graded Loot, Semi Graded Loot, Random Loot.  It gives both types of players what they want.

 

Loot difficulty?  Maybe there is a slider that dictates that too.  Option 1 End Loot only spawns in Safes with 20k HP; Option 2 Guns and Ammo only spawn in safes; Option 3 All Loot Spawns in related crates, random locations, and standard safes.

 

With the type of game this is, it has drawn a set of people with broadly different ideas of what makes the game enjoyable to them.  As a developer, I would hope that The Fun Pimps can see that the more ways that they can support to play the game, the broader the audience they will reach.

Adding options is a slippery slope that sends a message that we don't know what we want the game to be. We do. The problem is you 5000 hour guys want this or that. Average consumers don't care, they just want to hop in and have some fun. Too many options allows new people to really screw the game up and then they think it sucks and quit forever. We are for options that allow the game to be played in a whole new way, but not 20 flavors of ice cream on every topic. That is what mods are for.

7 hours ago, katarynna said:

One final thought on double looting poi's...

 

Is the real issue people have with it just grabbing the final loot, then starting the quest? or is it the looting the entire poi?

 

I personally don't see an issue with the people who clear and loot the whole poi before starting the quest. Honestly usually you would be better off just doing the quest and spending the extra time target looting a poi without a quest that has a high chance of having things you actually really need (eg a paper mill if you are using a blunderbuss or shotgun). If in mp there are few buildings left close by to loot, then let them get double from quests imo.

 

If the issue is with people nerdpoling to the roof to grab the final loot only and then starting the quest, madmole has talked about changes in the works to make this either much more difficult or impossible. Until those changes are in, talking about spending time reworking game mechanics to fix something that might not be "broken" seems premature.

How many hours did you have in before you nerd poled to the roof to cheese the loot though? At that point you already got your moneys worth in the game. Why should we fix something it takes 100 hours to figure out that some self control solves? It is no different than any game, once you played it you figure out easy ways to do stuff then can choose the easy way or play it legit. I'm not saying we won't address this, but when there are QOL features that everyone could enjoy or bandits not in yet, I feel like working on loot a holics anonymous programming is a waste of time.

7 hours ago, jenniann said:

Does anyone that play's MP have a problem that the non host doesn't seem to get infections/abrasions etc? My husband hosts not on a server, and i have not once been infected etc but he get's them quite often when getting hit. I have been hit heaps of times and gotten nothing?

Known issue, I believe it is now fixed in the next exp.

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6 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

Thats a nerdpoling issue then isnt it.

 

 

Heres a very simple solution: you cannot place a frame while jumping outside your land claim zone.

 

You can still build and make a ramp to your destination, but it will be a lot more difficult.

 

Alternatively, you could have a loot stage modifier that temporarily increases depending on recent zombie kills. Say, each zombie killed within the last 5 min or so increases your loot stage by a certain amount up to a cap. Killing another zombie refreshes it, this way you have to kill a minimum number of zombies to get the best loot and nerdpolling will give you @%$*#! loot.

Essentially this ties the challenge to the reward, if you cant do the challenge and go straight to the reward, you WILL be disappointed.

 

I'm not a fan of inconsistencies. So at my base I can magically place a frame under my feet, but lose this ability elsewhere? Most people don't even use a claim so it would become a hidden feature.

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21 minutes ago, Toban said:

Hey Madmole, here is the link to the castle. I built it just for fun while waiting for the game to come out of experimental.

Just a FYI to anyone else that watches, the comments said in the video are just for fun. 

makes me wonder if any good time period mods exist, only melee and primitive weapons, you'd be doomed but it would be fun. Looks good!

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6 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

you missed 'while jumping'.

that would only affect nerd polling, meanwhile building a catwalk over a dicey trap would still be perfectly fine (so long as your not jumping!)

I like the idea of finding a special key, in fact that key could be unique per character so that as long as a player loots that key they can get the chest, regardless of who else has been through, which would be nice in multiplayer.

Nothing worse than clearing a shotgun messiah and getting to the loot at the top only to realize a nerdpole sitting next to an empty chest.

Jumping, not jumping? Doesn't matter at all. I can build a nice marble circular staircase to the roof if I want to. Or make stairs by breaking blocks to stand on.

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1 minute ago, STyK_ said:

makes me wonder if any good time period mods exist, only melee and primitive weapons, you'd be doomed but it would be fun. Looks good!

Thanks, and yeah, I love the new slower progression in 7. If they do manage to get in slower gating, I'll be using it haha. I like the idea that after 2 weeks of playing I find my first gun haha.  

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28 minutes ago, Toban said:

Hey Madmole, here is the link to the castle. I built it just for fun while waiting for the game to come out of experimental.

Just a FYI to anyone else that watches, the comments said in the video are just for fun. 

 

 

nice!

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6 hours ago, Numberz said:


Agree completely.  This isn’t really about the loot.  In fact, the amount of extra loot that is harvested is pretty negligible. The real issue is that the developer has invested time and effort to provide a unique and exciting experience and double looting only serves to cheapen or spoil that experience.  We get it that players are choosing to do it but it is now so common as to almost have become a meme.  My thought is that the developer would want to do what they could to preserve these game experiences in the spirit that they were intended.

If you want a corridor shooter, sure we can do that, zero bugs, great performance, no exploits. But making big open world, do what you want how you want kind of games like we do, like Bethesda does leads to a lot of bugs or exploits. I'll take free style open world with bugs/exploits any day over perfect corridor shooters with only one way to win. This isn't an excuse not to fix things, but more of a general it is how it is because of x statement.

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3 minutes ago, madmole said:

If you want a corridor shooter, sure we can do that, zero bugs, great performance, no exploits. But making big open world, do what you want how you want kind of games like we do, like Bethesda does leads to a lot of bugs or exploits. I'll take free style open world with bugs/exploits any day over perfect corridor shooters with only one way to win. This isn't an excuse not to fix things, but more of a general it is how it is because of x statement.

I would think you guys have a much harder challenge than Bethesda due to the destroyable and buildable world. 
 

Now, For game 2, please make a skyrim style game with RWG and building/destruction.  :)

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@madmole would you talk a bit about what you are working on at the moment? 

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1 hour ago, STyK_ said:

I hear that selling stacks of gun safes makes you uber dukes......still........should maybe look into that. Sounds game breaking.

If you think parting with
    <ingredient name="resourceForgedSteel" count="40"/>
    <ingredient name="resourceSpring" count="5"/>
    <ingredient name="resourceMechanicalParts" count="5"/>

for 200-300 dukes or so depending on your barter skill is game breaking, then the whole game is much more game breaking. I can find a gun worth 600 much faster and easier than I can gathering those resources and craft that item.

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1 hour ago, Toban said:

Hey Madmole, here is the link to the castle. I built it just for fun while waiting for the game to come out of experimental.

Just a FYI to anyone else that watches, the comments said in the video are just for fun. 

 

 

Very nice! How did you make those 1/4 crenulations at the very top? Is it just an L shape over and over?

I see you used creative mode for some of it, was it all built using creative menu? Day 20 would and your low level would suggest so. Not that it matters, I was just curious :)

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I may state the obvious, but here is my feedback and a suggestion about critical injuries

 

Crits seldom happen on single hits and most often if you are surrounded by zombies and getting lots of hits in a short time frame (as expected). But since you usually get all different crit injuries simultaneously as a result, you then also need a complete set of healing items to shorten the duration of them.

 

I think it would be better to have each injury in multiple severities and repeated crits mostly increase the severity of the injury and seldomly add other types of injury.

Because then you would often need one specific healing item which you might specifically look for (honey in tree stumps, sewing kit in clothes stores ...). Which is emergent storytelling or an intrinsic quest. As it is now you either have packed everything with you or wait it out, but it does not make much sense to look for healing items because you can't hope to find a nearly complete set anyway.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

I would think you guys have a much harder challenge than Bethesda due to the destroyable and buildable world. 
 

Now, For game 2, please make a skyrim style game with RWG and building/destruction.  :)

Stay tuned, you won't be disappointed. One game is using the 7 Days engine so you can expect some building/destruction in that one for sure.

3 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I may state the obvious, but here is my feedback and a suggestion about critical injuries

 

Crits seldom happen on single hits and most often if you are surrounded by zombies and getting lots of hits in a short time frame (as expected). But since you usually get all different crit injuries simultaneously as a result, you then also need a complete set of healing items to shorten the duration of them.

 

I think it would be better to have each injury in multiple severities and repeated crits mostly increase the severity of the injury and seldomly add other types of injury.

Because then you would often need one specific healing item which you might specifically look for (honey in tree stumps, sewing kit in clothes stores ...). Which is emergent storytelling or an intrinsic quest. As it is now you either have packed everything with you or wait it out, but it does not make much sense to look for healing items because you can't hope to find a nearly complete set anyway.

 

 

As I said the other day, crits are random now, but later will be more specific, so a zombie with sharp claws might give deep lacerations, where a zombie with a big punch would give you concussion. Hazmat will infect/radiate.

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12 minutes ago, madmole said:

Stay tuned, you won't be disappointed. One game is using the 7 Days engine so you can expect some building/destruction in that one for sure.

As I said the other day, crits are random now, but later will be more specific, so a zombie with sharp claws might give deep lacerations, where a zombie with a big punch would give you concussion. Hazmat will infect/radiate.

That would be a great feature. I still love to that and at the same time, curse you for all that pain.  😉

 

Any chance that we could more specific loot bags from the zeds. Back in time I loved to hunt down soldiers and nurses.  :D

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14 minutes ago, madmole said:

Very nice! How did you make those 1/4 crenulations at the very top? Is it just an L shape over and over?

I see you used creative mode for some of it, was it all built using creative menu? Day 20 would and your low level would suggest so. Not that it matters, I was just curious :)

Thanks.

It's the 1/4 T and all in creative. I didn't think I would have time to build my epic castle while still in experimental. I will build my real castle without creative when alpha 19 goes live. I plan to build an awesome castle/settlement then. But I love to build stuff just for fun, so some stuff I do for the look doesn't hold up too well to a zombie invasion haha.

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3 minutes ago, Toban said:

Thanks.

It's the 1/4 T and all in creative. I didn't think I would have time to build my epic castle while still in experimental. I will build my real castle without creative when alpha 19 goes live. I plan to build an awesome castle/settlement then. But I love to build stuff just for fun, so some stuff I do for the look doesn't hold up too well to a zombie invasion haha.

Thanks, I think it looks great on the smaller walkways where you don't have room for the big crenulations. A little paint would soften up the interior... wood or tile floors, stucco walls would be a nice touch just to give the rooms a different feeling than the outside.

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5 minutes ago, madmole said:

Thanks, I think it looks great on the smaller walkways where you don't have room for the big crenulations. A little paint would soften up the interior... wood or tile floors, stucco walls would be a nice touch just to give the rooms a different feeling than the outside.

Yeah, at first I tried with the bigger blocks but when I saw the 1/4 T, I loved the look of it so redid it all lol. I agree on the decor, but I wanted to keep it rustic castle type on this build.

In the castle at the end of the video, it's much more decor friendly lol. I like trying all the different styles to see how they feel/look. In the castle resort we're building we went full mod con haha. I used the sink as a shower tray haha. Got tv's too. I love the creative option when I just want to build.

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33 minutes ago, madmole said:

Stay tuned, you won't be disappointed. One game is using the 7 Days engine so you can expect some building/destruction in that one for sure.

As I said the other day, crits are random now, but later will be more specific, so a zombie with sharp claws might give deep lacerations, where a zombie with a big punch would give you concussion. Hazmat will infect/radiate.

neat! i can't wait to see all that A20 has in tail!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, madmole said:

If you think parting with
    <ingredient name="resourceForgedSteel" count="40"/>
    <ingredient name="resourceSpring" count="5"/>
    <ingredient name="resourceMechanicalParts" count="5"/>

for 200-300 dukes or so depending on your barter skill is game breaking, then the whole game is much more game breaking. I can find a gun worth 600 much faster and easier than I can gathering those resources and craft that item.

Its that it leads to unlimited dukes, your set for the rest of the game money wise all you have to do is find a crucible or max a tree in intel. If your fine with gun safes becoming an in game currency in the end game guess thats fine hey sorry I brought it up. Compared to other things that do this, growing your own food atleast this takes up real estate and you have to protect it, food make sense because everyone's got to eat, and its not even worth that much(the ones you'd want to mass produce anyway).  What is the world doing with all these gun safes? Why does it even have worth?

Edited by STyK_ (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, madmole said:

Double dipping completely ruins the balance? How so? You are digging up the sand outside. You are harvesting the cement mixer. You are going inside, looting and fighting off zombies. You could walk next door and, down the street to the next place, so on and so forth doing the exact same thing. The only advantage to double dipping is you don't to walk 10 meters to the next house, which could have all the same stuff. I don't see it as ruining any balance. It simply feels cheesy is all.

I'd like to solve it, but nobody can come up with something better than what we have. It isn't an easy problem. Your solution of a timer has way less freedom and what if someone is inside? Your timer of failing doom is counting down, and someone is in your POI, and you fail, after walking 2 hours to the POI and nothing you can do about it.

Yeah, i don't think the problem is that bad.  Afterall, it still does require the player their most valuable resource....time.

 

As a side note...

 

Just wanted to share one of my latest creations using the in-game prefab editor and many of the new blocks introduced in A19.  It is an alternate trader Bob POI themed best for the wasteland.  I took some inspiration from one of your concept art drawings.  Let me know what you think.   I will be putting it up for download hopefully today/tomorrow on Nexus.

 

 

Inspirations.jpg

Screenshot 01a.jpg

Screenshot 01b.jpg

Screenshot 05.jpg

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)
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