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madmole

Alpha 19 Dev Diary

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Actually speaking of achievements that 1000 gamestage is going to be a tough one now. Kind of wish I could take mine back, I guess I could just do it again to make it valid.

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5 hours ago, madmole said:

No that is too heavy handed. Building is part of the game and from my experience is needed for many POIs where a jump or ledge is way too risky, so I build my own frame walkways.

I doubt it, but there are special infected coming. Maybe the wight will get replaced with the Revenant since they look kinda similar, etc. The wight doesn't have any special abilities so he could be the look for the Revenant, or another one actually. Bear in mind the Revenant isn't even for sure going into the game. I have all the special infected zombies designed now, but I need to show them to the team and then we pick the best ones, talk about how feasible the ideas are to program, etc.

What is the revenant? I visited the forums everyday and that is new to me. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, STyK_ said:

I didn't know about the bedroll, thats good, I withdraw that first part. The rest however, it would be a nightmare to be in a tower halfway though or near the top with your munitions nearly spent and someone resets the tower. If your bedroll is stopping respawns at your base it can't be at the tower too. Could be done by accident on pve, could be done on purpose in pvp.

If someone is working an active quest in the building someone else cannot reset the building.  They get a message that someone is currently working a quest and to try back later, or something to that effect. Same thing if there's a bedroll, you get a message that you cannot activate the quest because there's a bedroll.

 

Edited by Pegasus (see edit history)
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Question: the last bit I saw here on Dev thread was MM saying roughly that the 7,000hp locked chests were by design for Treasure Maps, since they gave 6,000 Dukes. Does that fit with other folks recollections?

 

Asking as I'd forgotten about this part so just had a,

 

"noo... izz lockedy?" (tentitively pecked it with lvl5 stone zxe, 27 damage) "nozz.. plezzez?" (peck, 27 damage) "mez needz 210 morz hitaz?"😿

 

<insert grumpy cat pic>

 

mez goes homz for big boom-boomz! :biggrin-new:

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5 hours ago, Pegasus said:

Why nerf it at all? 

Balance. I think most people are discussing balance of the game because it is an interesting exercise and the final balance hasn’t been determined yet. I really doubt anyone is giving actual thought to how others play the game. When they say “people can double dip” they aren’t intending to stop “people” from having fun. They are calling into question the balance of the game. 
 

I think that allowing double dipping of a POI is out of balance for SP but probably not so very much for MP. Others disagree with me and voiced that double dipping along with quest sharing completely ruins the balance of the game for MP as well. 
 

Why have the discussion at all? Because, by all that his holy, the name of the freaking thread is “Developer’s Diary” and it is the exact place that is appropriate for players to call into question the balance of the game design and possibly hear an explanation from the developer. 
 

Why should a developer care whether the game can be played in an unbalanced way even if some find it fun to do?  That all depends on the goals of the creators of the game. They have to measure their desire to have an airtight ruleset for their game that is balanced towards giving the player a good challenge against what they feel is the most fun. 
 

But this IS the place to talk about it and it is not because anyone wants to ruin the game for anyone else. We want to question and debate and discuss alternatives and hopefully learn a thing or two from some very successful developers in the field. 

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26 minutes ago, Roland said:

Why should a developer care whether the game can be played in an unbalanced way even if some find it fun to do?  That all depends on the goals of the creators of the game. They have to measure their desire to have an airtight ruleset for their game that is balanced towards giving the player a good challenge against what they feel is the most fun.

 

What some developers lose sight of is that they can, in many cases, provide both options to the player.  Examples are Loot Balance, the scaling of Game Stage, and the difficultly of obtaining loot.  You can easily add Advanced options that allow the player to modify the game so that is is more casual or hardcore.  Maybe some people prefer Stone tools, Iron Tools, and steel tools being based on Game stage; While others prefer to have a completely random loot experience.  This could be done with a 3 step slider for Graded Loot, Semi Graded Loot, Random Loot.  It gives both types of players what they want.

 

Loot difficulty?  Maybe there is a slider that dictates that too.  Option 1 End Loot only spawns in Safes with 20k HP; Option 2 Guns and Ammo only spawn in safes; Option 3 All Loot Spawns in related crates, random locations, and standard safes.

 

With the type of game this is, it has drawn a set of people with broadly different ideas of what makes the game enjoyable to them.  As a developer, I would hope that The Fun Pimps can see that the more ways that they can support to play the game, the broader the audience they will reach.

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1. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE change the sound of the 4x4 truck!! The motorcycle is on point, exactly what I expect it would sound in real life. But the truck? Not so much. It sounds like its constantly red lining! Drives me nuts (lol). This might come across as a personal thing, but I have seen a few others here and there voicing the same.

 

2. Gunslinger perk required to repair pistols and so on for the other skill trees. It strikes me as odd that any old person knows how to fix a jammed or otherwise broken gun. Also, I do not know much about guns, but there's a mod that makes it require actual pistol parts to repair a pistol instead of a repair kit. Seems more realistic but I wouldn't really know.

3. Vehicle repair kits and grease monkey required to repair vehicles. 1 forged iron and 1 duct tape to fix a broken down vehicle in a zombie apocalypse which has been used to run zombies over, accidentally driven into mine pits/shafts, and slammed into pure ore outcrops? I wish I could do that in real life haha. The gyrocopter being repaired by a beginner survivor is the weirdest

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54 minutes ago, Roland said:

Why have the discussion at all? Because, by all that his holy, the name of the freaking thread is “Developer’s Diary” and it is the exact place that is appropriate for players to call into question the balance of the game design and possibly hear an explanation from the developer. 

Roland Roland Roland, thowing out all the rules.😜 Because this is A19 Dev Diary. As you have stated tho, you wait for MM to say off topic.

 

I'm glad most of request for features and stuff are not considered. Otherwise it will be Ark with over 200g install and 100 pages of settings.

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11 hours ago, Roland said:

Here’s all you need to do. When the quest marker is within 30 meters start a timer countdown of 30 seconds. If the quest marker isn’t activated in that time the quest fails. No time to loot the house before the quest needs to start and no need to activate the quest from the edge of the chunk. Just put a time restraint when the player is near enough to easily make it but not pre-loot the house. 

That really only works in single player, though, where no one sees it as a problem to begin with.

On a MP server you you would split the party and clear the POI you do not have the quest for. (you still know where it is)

Then the one guy who has the quest moves over, shares it, and you get a respawn from the quest.

It would take a bit of coordination but it would not really change anything.

 

I really don't see the problem to begin with. If you clear a POI then you are entitled to the loot. If you clear it as part of a quest you are entitled to the loot and the quest reward.

You don't get anything double.

Now some people would say that because for them it's normal to nerdpole to the loot room and clean it out, then start the quest.

That is a completely different issue.

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40 minutes ago, Gazz said:

I really don't see the problem to begin with. If you clear a POI then you are entitled to the loot. If you clear it as part of a quest you are entitled to the loot and the quest reward.

You don't get anything double.

 

I've been saying this for ages. People keep acting like double loot is a bug or exploit, but you are literally doing the work twice, it's no different than if two identical PoI spawned side by side and you looted both. Why would you NOT get double the loot . . .

 

 

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8 hours ago, katarynna said:
8 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

The normal loot respawn rate for containers will take care of the scarcity of loot in MP games (it already works like this)

as long as no one gets close enough to the containers to reset the loot respawn timer. 

 

1 minute ago, IronClaw68 said:

 

Cheesy workaround (which I use feeling no guilt whatsoever) is to empty loot container, then place something in it (fiber, stone, etc). Then you can pass close to it for the next 5 days (or whatever) and then open container, harvest fiber, harvest container again and there will be new loot spawn. Sometimes I have to harvest more than once after getting "placeholder" out....  Wonder how long until TFP make this go away?

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Another thing i forgot!

 

You've done well to slow progression down in regards to loot. The tiers seem right now. However, I am still finding things at the traders way above my looting tier. I find advanced engineering and grease monkey (sometimes physician too) to be quite arbitrary now. I think that traders could use a balance like the loot and if my other idea above or something similar were to be implemented, this should slow the min maxers down a little. Otherwise, you get to day 40 and you don't see any point in continuing because you dont want for anything.

 

Lastly, the start is so engaging and addictive because its a real challenge to keep your weapon loaded with ammo. As you play, the bullets start raining down, so much so that unless im on difficulty 4 or above, day 30ish rolls around and im swimming in so many bullets that i barely need to craft them! I don't think the zombie difficulty scales enough with the technology and ammo that becomes available to the player. 

 

Thanks for reading, if you did, and I hope my ideas help :) always loved this game right from the earlier alphas!

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Something I want to debate since it sounds like it will be up for debate when power tools require stamina. Don't power tools also require fuel? Shouldn't they be better than all tools which do not require fuel? Or will this be another case of they're better only if perked into? If that's the case I'd suggest they be a ton better instead of just marginally to account for perk investment and higher resource costs. 

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10 hours ago, Blake_ said:

Like my face ! Ha! Haha!

Nah you face is HD, mate. Highly Deformed! :P

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One final thought on double looting poi's...

 

Is the real issue people have with it just grabbing the final loot, then starting the quest? or is it the looting the entire poi?

 

I personally don't see an issue with the people who clear and loot the whole poi before starting the quest. Honestly usually you would be better off just doing the quest and spending the extra time target looting a poi without a quest that has a high chance of having things you actually really need (eg a paper mill if you are using a blunderbuss or shotgun). If in mp there are few buildings left close by to loot, then let them get double from quests imo.

 

If the issue is with people nerdpoling to the roof to grab the final loot only and then starting the quest, madmole has talked about changes in the works to make this either much more difficult or impossible. Until those changes are in, talking about spending time reworking game mechanics to fix something that might not be "broken" seems premature.

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2 hours ago, Gazz said:

You don't get anything double.

You get the layout of the poi and learn where things are. This may not matter as much once you have played the game enough to remember every POI but I still find one's I've not seen before. Going through the second time is much easier and arguably cheaper resource wise. Again, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. It is, in fact, like someone else mentioned just like two duplicate POI's spawning right next to each other.

 

And yet...a lot of effort over two alphas was spent on eliminating duplicate pois on an entire map-- especially to prevent them from spawning next to each other. That's all this would be is taking it the final step of having no duplicate POI's right in proximity to each other. I agree, though, that this is probably not worth the effort. Just like Dead is Dead it is a way of playing that is easily chosen by the player if that is what they want to do.

22 minutes ago, katarynna said:

Is the real issue people have with it just grabbing the final loot, then starting the quest? or is it the looting the entire poi?

I think the issue is getting a preview of the dungeon right before doing the quest for real. For people that have 1000s of hours and awesome memories it probably isn't a big deal. But starting a quest at a previously unexplored POI is more fun than starting one at the same POI you've already memorized. Eliminating the opportunity to do a dry run before the quest starts will make the quests better.

 

Yes, you earn the loot both times but the second time through in such close proximity to the first is more of a gimme than a wage.

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1 hour ago, Gazz said:

That really only works in single player, though, where no one sees it as a problem to begin with.

On a MP server you you would split the party and clear the POI you do not have the quest for. (you still know where it is)

Then the one guy who has the quest moves over, shares it, and you get a respawn from the quest.

It would take a bit of coordination but it would not really change anything.

 

I really don't see the problem to begin with. If you clear a POI then you are entitled to the loot. If you clear it as part of a quest you are entitled to the loot and the quest reward.

You don't get anything double.

Now some people would say that because for them it's normal to nerdpole to the loot room and clean it out, then start the quest.

That is a completely different issue.

For me the only real problem is breaking immersion.

 

If you loot a building you deserve the loot, doing the same style building twice in a row isnt a problem, doing the same exact building twice in a row though feels like cheating (regardless of 'earning' the rewards).

 

You could roll existing loot from the poi into the refreshed one so that you only have to loot it once, honestly that would remove the feeling of cheating but give the same rewards and remove the incentive of doing it twice, unless the player really wanted xp for zombie kills.

 

Honestly though it think its more a perception issue, you are allowed to loot every poi in the world and start quests that refresh it, its not game breaking or cheating, but it sure feels like cheating.

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Does anyone that play's MP have a problem that the non host doesn't seem to get infections/abrasions etc? My husband hosts not on a server, and i have not once been infected etc but he get's them quite often when getting hit. I have been hit heaps of times and gotten nothing?

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3 minutes ago, jenniann said:

Does anyone that play's MP have a problem that the non host doesn't seem to get infections/abrasions etc? My husband hosts not on a server, and i have not once been infected etc but he get's them quite often when getting hit. I have been hit heaps of times and gotten nothing?

Tell him to disengage the "wife setting"....  ;)

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43 minutes ago, katarynna said:

One final thought on double looting poi's...

 

Is the real issue people have with it just grabbing the final loot, then starting the quest? or is it the looting the entire poi?

 

I personally don't see an issue with the people who clear and loot the whole poi before starting the quest. Honestly usually you would be better off just doing the quest and spending the extra time target looting a poi without a quest that has a high chance of having things you actually really need (eg a paper mill if you are using a blunderbuss or shotgun). If in mp there are few buildings left close by to loot, then let them get double from quests imo.

 

If the issue is with people nerdpoling to the roof to grab the final loot only and then starting the quest, madmole has talked about changes in the works to make this either much more difficult or impossible. Until those changes are in, talking about spending time reworking game mechanics to fix something that might not be "broken" seems premature.

Thats a nerdpoling issue then isnt it.

 

 

Heres a very simple solution: you cannot place a frame while jumping outside your land claim zone.

 

You can still build and make a ramp to your destination, but it will be a lot more difficult.

 

Alternatively, you could have a loot stage modifier that temporarily increases depending on recent zombie kills. Say, each zombie killed within the last 5 min or so increases your loot stage by a certain amount up to a cap. Killing another zombie refreshes it, this way you have to kill a minimum number of zombies to get the best loot and nerdpolling will give you @%$*#! loot.

Essentially this ties the challenge to the reward, if you cant do the challenge and go straight to the reward, you WILL be disappointed.

 

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Y'all way over think things that aren't actually problems, and then make solutions that completely cripple unrelated parts of the game to resolve them.

 

Nerd poling for the final loot in a PoI is cheesy, but they have already addressed it and said they have several ideas like a keycard on a random zombie in the PoI.

 

"Double looting" a PoI is not an issue to begin with, it's just a min max thing that's mildly more efficient, but you are spending the time and effort to loot it,  so there is no issue with getting the loot if you want to go through the trouble.

 

Nerd poling is 100% fine, it makes PoI way more fun and lets you approach them from different angles and use strategies that aren't just "pull out shotgun and clean house".

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8 minutes ago, bloodmoth13 said:

Thats a nerdpoling issue then isnt it.

 

 

Heres a very simple solution: you cannot place a frame while jumping outside your land claim zone.

 

You can still build and make a ramp to your destination, but it will be a lot more difficult.

 

Alternatively, you could have a loot stage modifier that temporarily increases depending on recent zombie kills. Say, each zombie killed within the last 5 min or so increases your loot stage by a certain amount up to a cap. Killing another zombie refreshes it, this way you have to kill a minimum number of zombies to get the best loot and nerdpolling will give you @%$*#! loot.

Essentially this ties the challenge to the reward, if you cant do the challenge and go straight to the reward, you WILL be disappointed.

 

Maybe a indesctrutible chest can be at final loot, that chest have 2 locks, one can be opened by lockpick/destruction, another can be opened just with a special key. That kay is randomly droped by any zombie in the POI. Even if the player use nerpolling, he cant get the final loot without that key.

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2 minutes ago, Biscoitoso said:

Maybe a indesctrutible chest can be at final loot, that chest have 2 locks, one can be opened by lockpick/destruction, another can be opened just with a special key. That kay is randomly droped by any zombie in the POI. Even if the player use nerpolling, he cant get the final loot without that key.

Yeah, I'd rather have something like this than restraining the player from interacting with the world. What's the point of voxels if you're just forbidding the player from building/destroying the world? The fact that you don't always have to follow the lights is, in my opinion, a super fun aspect of looting.

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17 minutes ago, bloodmoth13 said:

Thats a nerdpoling issue then isnt it.

 

 

Heres a very simple solution: you cannot place a frame while jumping outside your land claim zone.

 

You can still build and make a ramp to your destination, but it will be a lot more difficult.

 

Alternatively, you could have a loot stage modifier that temporarily increases depending on recent zombie kills. Say, each zombie killed within the last 5 min or so increases your loot stage by a certain amount up to a cap. Killing another zombie refreshes it, this way you have to kill a minimum number of zombies to get the best loot and nerdpolling will give you @%$*#! loot.

Essentially this ties the challenge to the reward, if you cant do the challenge and go straight to the reward, you WILL be disappointed.

 

Like any simple  solution, the devil sits in the details.

Not allowing to  place any blocks outside a landclaim area will cause a lot of problems, without solving anything. Ppl. would simply place landclaimblock and than nerdpole.

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2 minutes ago, Gr.o.m. said:

Like any simple  solution, the devil sits in the details.

Not allowing to  place any blocks outside a landclaim area will cause a lot of problems, without solving anything. Ppl. would simply place landclaimblock and than nerdpole.

you missed 'while jumping'.

that would only affect nerd polling, meanwhile building a catwalk over a dicey trap would still be perfectly fine (so long as your not jumping!)

12 minutes ago, Biscoitoso said:

Maybe a indesctrutible chest can be at final loot, that chest have 2 locks, one can be opened by lockpick/destruction, another can be opened just with a special key. That kay is randomly droped by any zombie in the POI. Even if the player use nerpolling, he cant get the final loot without that key.

I like the idea of finding a special key, in fact that key could be unique per character so that as long as a player loots that key they can get the chest, regardless of who else has been through, which would be nice in multiplayer.

Nothing worse than clearing a shotgun messiah and getting to the loot at the top only to realize a nerdpole sitting next to an empty chest.

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