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Alpha 19 Dev Diary

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

I'm pretty sure the problem is that there are no easy solutions to solve the issue of double clearing. One of the reasons for the POIs resetting on quest start is to prevent people on multiplayer servers from getting screwed over. The initial design was for players to get the loot from both the loot room and the trader reward. In a MP game the only way to guarantee this is to reset the POI. The other issue is that there could be problems completing a quest in a partially destroyed POI. If there was an easy solution to this that worked for both SP and MP, I'm pretty sure it would already be in the game.

The issue can be solved by coding in all the edge cases ( passerby accidental clearing, destroyed POI, etc) . A lot of work I know, but it will improve the game.

 

When the code is in, they will have the improved mechanic forever and we will not get the same issue in a future game. Dungeon clearing has to be singular. 

 

The event system can solve all of this things by respawning zds or quest-related people owning the lost/destroyed quest items. The event system can also solve invulnerable buildings by respawning a generic quest giver and restoring its quest states for each player.

 

So I think this is an interesting system to look forward to. At the end of the day, MM and The Fun Pimp make all the calls.

 

 

Edited by Blake_ (see edit history)

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1 hour ago, Blake_ said:

Yeah... not exactly, but I can see why you would interpret it that way. He stated that you "can" do it so we stopped whinning, and we were talking about bullet abundance (actually that was one of the times, he actually stated that more than once). He never sided with the fact, but he does it more often than not. So it IS a tricky subject and that's why I'm asking. 

 

It's a cheap design. Too convenient for the player and unbalances salvaged resources and loot abundance by A LOT. So much that tier III-V can be outright ignored due to the fact that double clearing a smaller quest is fast (less than 1 hour) grants around 5000 dukes when selling salvaged stuff and we get the reward on top of it.

 

I'll take more POIS over double clearing any time. I can ALSO see them never fixing it, because the thought process of it is equal to leaving the dev console ingame: "yo, don't do it if you don't like it duh" + [instert willpower comment here] :boxing2:

 

 

Another important reason is that it doesn't matter much whether you double-loot or not. Mostly quests are in towns and instead of double-looting you could just as well loot the neighboring house.

In MP towns are often completely looted but then double-looting is not possible anyway because the quest house is looted already. New pristine houses can always be generated by accepting quests.

 

So the problem is insubstantial, the solution not easy --> move on, there are bigger fishes tor fry

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Another important reason is that it doesn't matter much whether you double-loot or not. Mostly quests are in towns and instead of double-looting you could just as well loot the neighboring house.

In MP towns are often completely looted but then double-looting is not possible anyway because the quest house is looted already. New pristine houses can always be generated by accepting quests.

 

So the problem is insubstantial, the solution not easy --> move on, there are bigger fishes tor fry

You can always double loot by doing the POI before accepting the quest at the trader. It's a common thing in games to clear locations before questing.

 

It's just not cheesable like it is now. The moment you accept it on the trader it resets. Doesn't matter if you did it before. It can issue a warning if someone has a landclaim/blocks there and the code can just don't pick that particular POI. I mean, how many POI can 8 players take over in 1000 hours compared to the 2000+ that can be in a 8k map?

Edited by Blake_ (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

Since the nerdpoling discussion seems to run dry, what do you guys think about the stone/iron/steel tool balance ? General Discussion has several topics on the subject, consensus being the transition from stone to iron and from iron to steel is a difficult one. 

 

Honestly I feel it comes down to the difficulty of balancing TxQ6 vs T(x+)Q1. If you have a Q6 stone axe, the switch to a Q1 iron pickaxe is just bad for many reasons :

- stamina-drain / food usage (yes, I know, ergonomic grip + mods + coffee, point being it's a hassle and quite an investment for a very meager return)

- repair cost (1 stone vs 1 repair kit)

- number of mod slots

- the stone axe actually merges the use cases of an iron pickaxe and an iron fireaxe in one tool. And inventory/toolbet space is precious...

 

One possible solution could be to tie the maximum quality to the tier of the tool. Especially for stone tools, the transition to iron would be smoother if you couldn't ever find a stone axe higher than Q3 or Q4. It would both cap the number of mod slots on the item, while also directly reducing the maximum block damage you can find, thus making iron Q1 de facto more attractive in comparison. Same argument can be made for steel.

 

I know you don't have to switch from your Q6 stone axe to a Q1 iron pickaxe. But how fun is it when you finally unlock the iron age and realise there's another soft gate - basically one that forces you to wait until those iron tools become an undisputable upgrade ? I know @madmole likes consistency, but this is one of those edge cases where it actually is detrimental to meaningful and enjoyable progression.

Edited by beHypE (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

It can issue a warning if someone has a landclaim/blocks there or just don't pivk that particular POI. I mean, how many POI can 8 players take over compared to the 1500 that can be in a 8k map?

If your saying a landclaim block should stop trader quests from happening on POI's I think thats a good idea! I was kind of wondering if starting a quest on someones POI base would erase their everything. Without a safety like that pvp will be a mess, would result in nobody using POI's which I don't think atleast half of players would enjoy. Only problem is someone going overboard and going for one of the towers or the hospital, I have a phrase for this but its not forum appropriate, taken from Tropic Thunder. 

Edited by STyK_ (see edit history)

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12 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

You can always double loot by doing the POI before accepting the quest at the trader. It's a common thing in games to clear locations before questing.

 

It's just not cheesable like it is now. The moment you accept it on the trader it resets. Doesn't matter if you did it before. It can issue a warning if someone has a landclaim/blocks there and the code can just don't pick that particular POI. I mean, how many POI can 8 players take over in 1000 hours compared to the 2000+ that can be in a 8k map?

If i understand correctly, what you are proposing is that once you accept a quest from the trader, the quest poi is reset at that moment so that you can't go to the poi, loot it, start the quest, and reloot it. 

 

While that would work fine for solo play and coop play, how would you make it work on multiplayer?

 

You don't always immediately do the quest after accepting it. Suppose i accepted a quest for the shotgun messiah factory on a mp server, and then logged off. Before i log back on and go to do the quest, someone else loots that factory and kills all the zombies. When i log back on and go activate the quest, do i get an immediate quest complete since all zombies are dead? Do i fail it because i am unable to kill anything since everything is already dead? 

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5 minutes ago, katarynna said:

If i understand correctly, what you are proposing is that once you accept a quest from the trader, the quest poi is reset at that moment so that you can't go to the poi, loot it, start the quest, and reloot it. 

 

While that would work fine for solo play and coop play, how would you make it work on multiplayer?

 

You don't always immediately do the quest after accepting it. Suppose i accepted a quest for the shotgun messiah factory on a mp server, and then logged off. Before i log back on and go to do the quest, someone else loots that factory and kills all the zombies. When i log back on and go activate the quest, do i get an immediate quest complete since all zombies are dead? Do i fail it because i am unable to kill anything since everything is already dead? 

Well, then someone made the work for you. Be happy and get the reward and the next quest.

 

The bigger problem is IMHO that people in SP and co-op do have sub-bases in other towns which they can't secure with landclaim block. At least I use sub-bases almost always and assume others do too.

 

28 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

You can always double loot by doing the POI before accepting the quest at the trader. It's a common thing in games to clear locations before questing.

You can't if the town is already completely looted. Which for example just happened to our home town in our 4-player co-op game

 

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Quote

New super filling foods

  • All new super foods have 0% food poisoning.
  • Gumbo Stew
  • Shepard's Pie
  • Spaghetti
  • Tuna Fish Gravy on Toast

 

Loving these new super foods; I can focus on feeding my character for most of the day with one meal. Keeping my eyes open for the components is well worth it for these items. However, 3 out of 4 of these meals require a Can of Peas. Whether this was an intentional bottle neck or not, I'm finding in the current A19 playthrough the contributing factor to crafting any of these is if I've found any Peas; I'm stocked on all the other components for Gumbo Stew, Shepard's Pie and Tuna Fish Gravy on Toast.

 

If this was meant to be the case, carry on; but, if you're looking for input, maybe increasing the chance for Peas at Vending Stations / Food Drops for higher-level GS would put more super foods on the table.

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1 minute ago, meganoth said:

Well, then someone made the work for you. Be happy and get the reward and the next quest.

That could work lol. But what if you are in the middle of a quest in the shotgun messiah factory and someone else on your mp server accepts a quest for that same poi? That would mean it would be reset while you are in the middle of the quest.

 

To fix that, you could make it so that if someone has accepted a quest in a particular poi, no one else can be offered a quest there. But then, if the person who accepted the quest never logs back on that server, that t5 poi would be removed as a quest option for everyone else on the server til it is wiped. There aren't that many t5's per map usually.

 

I just think that having the quest poi reset when the quest is accepted rather than when it the quest marker is activated would not work well for multiplayer servers.

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4 minutes ago, Krows said:

 

Loving these new super foods; I can focus on feeding my character for most of the day with one meal. Keeping my eyes open for the components is well worth it for these items. However, 3 out of 4 of these meals require a Can of Peas. Whether this was an intentional bottle neck or not, I'm finding in the current A19 playthrough the contributing factor to crafting any of these is if I've found any Peas; I'm stocked on all the other components for Gumbo Stew, Shepard's Pie and Tuna Fish Gravy on Toast.

 

If this was meant to be the case, carry on; but, if you're looking for input, maybe increasing the chance for Peas at Vending Stations / Food Drops for higher-level GS would put more super foods on the table.

Quick question, when do you eat them ? I find myself waiting to be at a perfect 50% food before I eat my Meat Stews, since I think I read that overeating isn't a thing anymore. How do you chug down 70+ foods without essentially wasting some of those nutrients ?

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11 minutes ago, beHypE said:

Quick question, when do you eat them ? I find myself waiting to be at a perfect 50% food before I eat my Meat Stews, since I think I read that overeating isn't a thing anymore. How do you chug down 70+ foods without essentially wasting some of those nutrients ?

Great Question! It comes down to the kind of day I'm gonna have; if I'm going to be hitting the mines, I top it off, but if it's a casual, low stress day, I'm waiting until I'm pretty low as well, half or even hitting hungry.

 

Part of it has to do with the fact that through the last couple of A19 playthroughs, I don't get into Super Food making until I'm post level 40; it's a lot harder to waste nutrients when you have a bigger tank, thankfully. If you were focusing your talents on cooking, I could definitely see how a 100+ Food would be hard to swallow (hah!)

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13 minutes ago, beHypE said:

How do you chug down 70+ foods without essentially wasting some of those nutrients ?

Having higher player level, say you're level 40, that puts your food to 140 instead of the 100 you start with.
While overeating/drinking is not a thing anymore, you can still do it, the counter will tick down slower so you still get a slight benefit.

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15 hours ago, Demandred1957 said:

Ok, sorry. I just tend to get a little bit tense when I see anything that even hints at more restrictions in the game. But I will disagree that apparently A LOT of people cares how other people play... Myself personally, I like the freedom the game has to do pretty much whatever you want. I think of it as minecraft for adults, (although I never played minecraft)..

I'm a big fan on several ways to accomplish goals. That said, it can't be as easy as dig a 3 meter hole and put a frame on your head and be safe from the horde. Things should work, for a little while, then eventually the zombies get to you. So you had better have a backup plan B, C, etc. Like my strategy only works as long as I have enough ammo. If I run out of bullets I'm screwed, other than the fact that I usually have a fair amount of concrete between me and them.

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32 minutes ago, beHypE said:

Quick question, when do you eat them ? I find myself waiting to be at a perfect 50% food before I eat my Meat Stews, since I think I read that overeating isn't a thing anymore. How do you chug down 70+ foods without essentially wasting some of those nutrients ?


Overeating is very much a thing still. Eating extra food generates a timer on the left that counts down to when your food bar will start depleting. You can run that timer up to 999 seconds by eating 9 or 10 shepherd’s pies. Until the timer depletes, your food bar stays at 100%

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@madmole  , is there any plan on making spikes, barbed wire and mines give XP for kills? Perhaps locked behind perk like INT does? I have some ideas for defence maximizing the effect of mines and pitfall traps.

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16 hours ago, MechanicalLens said:

And how does the way other people play their game affect you? (Outside of a multiplayer server, of course.) I say, live and let live.

 

Plus, just think for a second what building would be like without nerdpoling in 7D2D. Think about it for a moment, and if you'd be fine with it, how many other people wouldn't be?

 

I personally dislike cheesing POI's by magic hopping my way to the top. So, I don't do it. End of story.

 

Nerdpoling isn't a cheese strat. It's a useful tool that some people exploit to their advantage. If you really believe you're better than them, then don't do what they do. Simple. *Shrug*

Edit: An optional feature to disable it would be fine, even though that would be an oddly specific option.

Junk drone might become a remote control building tool, so you can fly and build like in creative mode. Then we could remove or limit nerd poling. Like only so many frames high before it collapses. I don't see nerd poling as a cheat though, we just need it so zombies can climb up a nerd pole just like a ladder or knock it down with one hit successfully, easily, etc.

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4 minutes ago, madmole said:

Junk drone might become a remote control building tool, so you can fly and build like in creative mode. Then we could remove or limit nerd poling. Like only so many frames high before it collapses. I don't see nerd poling as a cheat though, we just need it so zombies can climb up a nerd pole just like a ladder or knock it down with one hit successfully, easily, etc.

Making nerdpoling only possible with wood frame blocks and also allowing zombies to climb up them would be a win in my book. :)

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, madmole said:

Junk drone might become a remote control building tool, so you can fly and build like in creative mode. Then we could remove or limit nerd poling. Like only so many frames high before it collapses. I don't see nerd poling as a cheat though, we just need it so zombies can climb up a nerd pole just like a ladder or knock it down with one hit successfully, easily, etc.

I personally see no issues with adding some SI limits to all types of frames, including wood frames of course. Maybe 10-15 blocks or so. This would still allow the convenience of building with nerdpoles while hopefully limiting the amount of POI's that players can scale up to. Adding some sort of lip or overhang (such as with poles) against any lower POI's could fix this though, if it suits the POI in question. 

 

It sounds interesting, but I'd have to see [the junk drone performing this task] in person before I make a final opinion on this one. :)

Edited by MechanicalLens (see edit history)

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Just now, Roland said:

Making nerdpoling only possible with wood frame blocks and also allowing zombies to climb up them would be a win in my book. :)

Same thing is in my book too... except mine has pictures.

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2 minutes ago, Roland said:

 


Overeating is very much a thing still. Eating extra food generates a timer on the left that counts down to when your food bar will start depleting. You can run that timer up to 999 seconds by eating 9 or 10 shepherd’s pies. Until the timer depletes, your food bar stays at 100%

It does seem like over eating depreciates faster though, could be my imagination or my unwillingness to perk into irongut. I stick to master chef perk two because of it so I'm always making food that give me 35-50 so I'm not over eating. Can always carry a stack with me.

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8 minutes ago, madmole said:

Junk drone might become a remote control building tool, so you can fly and build like in creative mode. Then we could remove or limit nerd poling. Like only so many frames high before it collapses. I don't see nerd poling as a cheat though, we just need it so zombies can climb up a nerd pole just like a ladder or knock it down with one hit successfully, easily, etc.

that would be neat! 

 

i like it!

 

 

also WHAT is Nerd polling! all i can think of is a Poll for nerds!

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1 minute ago, Adam the Waster said:

that would be neat! 

 

i like it!

 

 

also WHAT is Nerd polling! all i can think of is a Poll for nerds!

Nerdpoling is a term that originated in Minecraft. It describes a person looking downwards, jumping, and placing a block directly beneath them, rinse and repeat.

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14 hours ago, Blake_ said:

@madmole , any plans for eliminating the choice of clearing a quest location twice and getting twice the loot ?

I do it all the time and it gets old, boring and cheap pretty fast. It brings a dull predictable order in a game that shines due to passerby mayhem, also called "emergent gameplay".

 

Blake? Any plans for you to gain some self control? Does the min maxer in you compel you to go in and clear it/loot it before hitting the exclamation? I stopped doing it, so can you!

I keep telling them all you need to do is reset it when you are close to the chunk. Then they give me these edge cases about what if they don't go there? I say "mission fail" if somehow a voxel gets changed or another player not in the party dirties the chunk before you hit the exclamation mark. So we go round and round about this. At the end of the day it is only the 5000 hour SP guys with no self control that it affects so it is low priority. Because in MP there is possibility it was already looted.

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12 minutes ago, madmole said:

Junk drone might become a remote control building tool, so you can fly and build like in creative mode. Then we could remove or limit nerd poling. Like only so many frames high before it collapses. I don't see nerd poling as a cheat though, we just need it so zombies can climb up a nerd pole just like a ladder or knock it down with one hit successfully, easily, etc.

its definitely a step in the right direction!

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1 hour ago, katarynna said:

If i understand correctly, what you are proposing is that once you accept a quest from the trader, the quest poi is reset at that moment so that you can't go to the poi, loot it, start the quest, and reloot it. 

 

While that would work fine for solo play and coop play, how would you make it work on multiplayer?

 

You don't always immediately do the quest after accepting it. Suppose i accepted a quest for the shotgun messiah factory on a mp server, and then logged off. Before i log back on and go to do the quest, someone else loots that factory and kills all the zombies. When i log back on and go activate the quest, do i get an immediate quest complete since all zombies are dead? Do i fail it because i am unable to kill anything since everything is already dead? 

Yes. Could be solved with an Event system. Spawn new Zds, change quest parameters on the go, respawn an npc with a new satchel if one gets destroyed, etc. There are ways to do it. Development Time is the problem. I think it's worth it though.

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