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Alpha 19 Dev Diary

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5 minutes ago, RhinoW said:

Let's not forget the fortitude tree is based on being resilient, taking hits, which you usually take when fighting with melee. So I find the fact that it has machine gunner rather irrelevant (they are overpowered even without the perk at max rank aswell), so it would actually make sense that you would get at least an interesting melee weapon. Since all of the perk trees have ranged + melee, it makes little sense to not put the same amount of effort in the fortitude tree when it comes to those 2 weapon types (both should be equally important).

 

Well sure you can say it counter-balances it, but then what's the point of having the brawler perk? A perk tree is not supposed to have something useless and then say "but the other perk fixes the balance issue because instead of using that, you can use this, that's better". Once again, my issue is the fact that fist weapons are almost rendered useless, unless your REALLY TRY to make it work (i've already wrote this like 4 times and provided suggestions).

Haven't looked closely at the fortitude perks but yeah it would be nice to have something that makes the player more resilient to criticals (e.g. reduce timers etc.)

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The point that Gazz makes above about some weapons may be weaker if looked at in isolation, but that they come as part of a particular package is really important. All of the weapons don't actually need to be (and I'd argue really shouldn't) be balanced against each other. They're each part of various sets that you get for specing down a perk tree. Maybe knives and bows are weaker in a one-on-one fight, probably not the best option for a character designed to stand toe-to-toe with creatures on a blood moon. But they're a park of agility, which gives you the ability to stealth through POIs and complete fetch quests sometimes without ever killing zombies. When you do need to kill them, you can frequently kill a zombie in a room with another zombie, walk through that room and might not ever realize the other zombie was there to begin with. Because it also never found you when you missed it.

I promise you my junk turret's 'ttk' is lower than what my friends get with shotguns or rifles. I can drop my pair of tricked out turrets in the room with 5 zombies and drop my friend in a room with 5 zombies and a shotgun with relevant perks and he'll clear out the zombies from his room and come finish mine off. But the junk turret's ability to stagger a bit on every hit and continuously auto-target the closest zombie makes them an indispensable aid on blood moon nights to keep the zombies from swarming up the ramp too quickly. Combine that with the intellect tree's reduced forging costs and faster crafting time (which can add up when you start crafting bulk amounts of all sorts of materials), their ability to choose up to 2 of 5 quest rewards (as opposed to 1 of 2), the increased dukes that they get, etc... and I'm certainly not going to call it 'OP', but certainly I don't feel like I'm so far behind that it's not worth it.

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7 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Rng isn't balancing though. It's gating with a dice roll, and gating something doesn't change disparities in effectiveness.

Well, other games have used variations of RNG for class builds.  For example, many mmorpgs out there have critical hit builds that % based damage increases versus sustained damage output.  One could argue that those classes roles are not balanced but they sure are fun to play.  At least for me.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

Well, other games have used variations of RNG for class builds.  For example, many mmorpgs out there have critical hit builds that % based damage increases versus sustained damage output.  One could argue that those classes roles are not balanced but they sure are fun to play.  At least for me.

And we're back to being told "Get Lucky"...

Edited by hiemfire (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, RhinoW said:

Let's not forget the fortitude tree is based on being resilient, taking hits, which you usually take when fighting with melee. So I find the fact that it has machine gunner rather irrelevant (they are overpowered even without the perk at max rank aswell), so it would actually make sense that you would get at least an interesting melee weapon. Since all of the perk trees have ranged + melee, it makes little sense to not put the same amount of effort in the fortitude tree when it comes to those 2 weapon types (both should be equally important).

 

Well sure you can say it counter-balances it, but then what's the point of having the brawler perk? A perk tree is not supposed to have something useless and then say "but the other perk fixes the balance issue because instead of using that, you can use this, that's better". Once again, my issue is the fact that fist weapons are almost rendered useless, unless your REALLY TRY to make it work (i've already wrote this like 4 times and provided suggestions).

Machine gunner being OP is relevant to the balance.

 

"useless" or "Almost rendered useless" is such a hyperbole sentence. Should I say now the knuckles are the best even though I know they are just the least best of them all 😉 ?

I have a friend who still recounts his turn as brawler in the previous game as great fun (and he isn't someone who would have fun with an ineffectual weapon). Did you ever try brawler together with beer or are you just theory-crafting with the stats?

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

I've been thinking about it, and really I think what a lot of the "problem" with balance at the moment is, is that there are no ranged enemies. Adding bandits with guns will DRASTICALLY change the balance of what weapons are good and add situations where you actually *need* to switch weapons.

 

Right now, the only range that matters is close range. The only enemy in the game that has a single ranged attack is the cop, and they still run to you. Not a single other enemy can damage you outside of melee range, so therefore, no other range matters. If you see a zombie a mile away, it's not a threat and it doesn't matter if you only have a shotgun, it will either come to you, or you ignore it. The shotgun is insane at close range and will churn the entire horde into paste, so you don't need any other weapon

 

Spears, shotguns, snipers, even the m60 etc will all be pretty heavily balanced against each other when there are ranged enemies. Being able to throw a spear currently is fun but not really that important, but throwing it at a guy with a gun who's shooting you will be a legit asset over the club

Edited by Khalagar (see edit history)
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Just now, Khalagar said:

he only enemy in the game that has a single ranged attack is the cop,

Irradiated Vulture's do. Same vomit attack, just from the air.

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Just now, hiemfire said:

Irradiated Vulture's do. Same vomit attack, just from the air.

 

I actually didn't know that, but that would explain why I get hit in the back of the head with random spit sometimes during hordes! I thought cops were artillery'ing me from across the map

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8 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Sorry, what? Machine gunner being OP is relevant to the balance. Why has machine gunners relevance anything to do with it making sense that the knuckles need to be an "interesting" weapon?

 

"useless" or "Almost rendered useless" is such a hyperbole sentence. Should I say now the knuckles are the best even though I know they are just the least best of them all 😉 ?

I have a friend who still recounts his turn as brawler in the previous game as great fun (and he isn't someone who would have fun with an ineffectual weapon). Did you ever try brawler together with beer or are you just theory-crafting with the stats?

 

I never theory craft... I have tried it, you would know that if you read my previous replies. I'm talking based on my experience, i have already tried all the builds and i play with 2 others friends that also share their feedback. I always go main tree + subtree, and the brawler perk and fist weapons in general are not as good as they COULD be. And again, i never said they weren't fun, because i myself had fun the first few hours, but that was it.

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13 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

And we're back to being told "Get Lucky"...

Perhaps in week 1 but whats wrong with that?  You can make your own beer.  So it can become less RNG over time with the effort.  For all we know, the fist build was designed to be on the lower end of the balance curve but catches up mid to late game.  Best advice I can give all the people here is to actually do a playthrough and see how it "feels" and try to set aside and the numbers comparison and go from there.  I'll report my thoughts on this further after I do full a playthrough.

 

 

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There are times at the start that I use the stone shovel instead of the spear. Just because I can power attack with the shovel and not have to retrieve it.

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2 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

Perhaps in week 1 but whats wrong with that?  You can make your own beer.  So it can become less RNG over time with the effort.  For all we know, the fist build was designed to be on the lower end of the balance curve but catches up mid to late game.  Best advice I can give all the people here is to actually do a playthrough and see how it "feels" and try to set aside and the numbers comparison and go from there.  I'll report my thoughts on this further after I do full a playthrough.

 

 

Not what I was getting at or coming from, but your focus is understandable due to where the others who are posting are focusing. What I'm trying to say is that assessing the balance of an item, or the perk trees themselves, based primarily on where they end up best case with rng based loot/trader availability is beyond flawed. The baseline should be without the rng only items factored in, so only what can be done with just perk point investment. If that foundation isn't balanced, no amount of rng gated items will be able to swing it into a balanced position. This game doesn't have that foundation for the character builds yet (try the various perk trees in the game without making use of anything that is available only via rng, weapon/tool parts are rng gated btw, you'll see what I mean) and brandishing Fortuna's blessings ("Have you tried x using rng items/buffs k, v, and q?") doesn't help. Nothing wrong with the rng stuff building on that foundation though, it just needs that foundation.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, meganoth said:

But the only unique feature of the knuckles, avoiding infection, really lost its appeal after all the other ailings were added to the game. So I agree with whoever said the knuckles should now protect against lacerations and cuts as well.

I disagree, I have to get in just as close with the knife and I get no special protection. Bob and weave or in the case of this game time your hits when you move in and move away. Your taking all the skill out of it making it a special case class. Even a brawler shouldn't allow himself to be swarmed. Stand in doorways, fall back when needed.

Edited by STyK_ (see edit history)

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37 minutes ago, cammel said:

There are times at the start that I use the stone shovel instead of the spear. Just because I can power attack with the shovel and not have to retrieve it.

I've always had a good time taking out lower end POI's with just a shovel.  Sorta like living the "Shovel Knight" life for a moment.  Miner 69'er makes it decent with mods.  Dedicated and specced out melee weapons are better ... but there's just something a bit more satisfying to taking out a few zombie with a sharpened shovel.  (And the power attack is rather nice, I'll agree!)

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36 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Not what I was getting at or coming from, but your focus is understandable due to where the others who are posting are focusing. What I'm trying to say is that assessing the balance of an item, or the perk trees themselves, based primarily on where they end up best case with rng based loot/trader availability is beyond flawed. The baseline should be without the rng only items factored in, so only what can be done with just perk point investment. If that foundation isn't balanced, no amount of rng gated items will be able to swing it into a balanced position. This game doesn't have that foundation for the character builds yet (try the various perk trees in the game without making use of anything that is available only via rng, weapon/tool parts are rng gated btw, you'll see what I mean) and brandishing Fortuna's blessings ("Have you tried x using rng items/buffs k, v, and q?") doesn't help. Nothing wrong with the rng stuff building on that foundation though, it just needs that foundation.

Radical and unusable metric, sorry. Without any weapons and tools (which you also only find through rng) none of the weapon and tools perks matter anymore. AGI would have one perk left for the comparison if I remember correctly.

 

28 minutes ago, STyK_ said:

I disagree, I have to get in just as close with the knife and I get no special protection. Bob and weave or in the case of this game time your hits when you move in and move away. Your taking all the skill out of it making it a special case class. Even a brawler shouldn't allow himself to be swarmed. Stand in doorways, fall back when needed.

 

But with knifes you get bleed and a slow debuff instead. That is the knifes unique power. A swarmed brawler is dead but has no lacerations, which won't help him in the afterlife 😉

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, meganoth said:

But with knifes you get bleed and a slow debuff instead. That is the knifes unique power. A swarmed brawler is dead but has no lacerations, which won't help him in the afterlife 😉

and its matched by brawlers unique power to not get infected. You turn this into a special case class and it will be referred to as the noob class cause it will be the easiest to play. I'd have to go back in the thread but its either you or Gazz saying that perception gets a crappy melee weapon because it gets the best ranged weapon. Brawler gets a full auto mid ranged weapon its already OP. 

Edited by STyK_ (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Radical and unusable metric, sorry. Without any weapons and tools (which you also only find through rng) none of the weapon and tools perks matter anymore. AGI would have one perk left for the comparison if I remember correctly.

Seriously? So stone and Iron tools are schematic only now and not craftable from go or with just 1 point into Miner 69er? News to me...

Applying no-rng only:

AGI has it's full tree available (don't need rng only parts/components for shivs, hunting knives, prim bow or the first tier of light armor)

PER looses access to rifles (unless they made the wrench schematic only removing the option to craft them with just a 1 point investment, then Salvage Ops is out too)

STR has full perk tree (honestly, look at it again @meganoth, all 3 weapon lines, armor, cooking, tool crafting, etc are completely decoupled baseline from rng) 

INT would be completely borked (weapons all require parts currently and the electrical stuff is rng gated behind the wire tool)

FORT looses MGs and that's it.

 

As a baseline foundation the perk trees and weapons need to be balanced against each other without including the rng only items.

Edited by hiemfire
Remembered that tier 2 armor requires sewing kits. (see edit history)

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A guarantee to get all your favourite items in the first week was neither given nor intended.

Early hordes are so easy you can use whatever you find or craft.

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I'd like to see a tier 1 INT melee weapon where you make a taser by jamming a couple nails through and out of a flashlight that attacks like a knife. My original idea was a meat fork but it technically wouldn't work since the prongs are connected.

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7 minutes ago, Gazz said:

A guarantee to get all your favourite items in the first week was neither given nor intended.

Early hordes are so easy you can use whatever you find or craft.

I take it this is directed at me. That is not what I'm saying is needed. The perk trees need to be balanced with each other before the rng gated stuff is added to the assessment of them. They are not and relying on things that are gated behind rng to provided the baseline for balance between the different trees is at its core the same thing as thinking someone putting in 40 hrs a week playing nickel slots is guaranteed to have the same return as some who uses the same time in a 40 hr per week job.

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People argue about what melee weapon is best, but when the bandits come, it could be like that saying: "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight".  😁

 

I mean as GS grows, melee starts becoming obsolete.  I suppose if you don't mind dying or are extra careful, then you can use anything. 

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22 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

 

I mean as GS grows, melee starts becoming obsolete.  I suppose if you don't mind dying or are extra careful, then you can use anything. 

Thats why i like the stun baton with the books! it can keep the zombies in place so you can run or light them up!

 

Hell i uses it during horde night!

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Now that I think about it, when facing large number of ranged bandits, the only good all-round focus would be Fortitude.

Strength is short ranged and if bandit have shotguns too, it could get ugly.

Fortitude has the best defense and the best mid-ranged weapon, killing the shotgun bandits before they get too close.  Also he would have the best chance against most ranged opponents in most situations. 

 

POI's would still be anyone ballgame. 

1 minute ago, Adam the Waster said:

Thats why i like the stun baton with the books! it can keep the zombies in place so you can run or light them up!

 

Hell i uses it during horde night!

Well, that's just because you a badass!  😋

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I just do not like how throwing spears performs. 

 

Maybe it is not as bad if you throw really good modded spears, but the pickup is kinda wonky and I do not want to risk losing a bunch of mods. 

 

If the pickup of spears were better I might be more likely to do it though. 

 

Sometimes you try picking them up right in front of you and it just does not work.  Other times it is like super far away and you don't think you should be able to pick it up and you do, heh. 

 

If the pickup were more reliable, like if you are within X blocks of it you can pick it up no matter what, the spear might be a lot better. 

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2 hours ago, Vintorez said:

I'd like to see a tier 1 INT melee weapon where you make a taser by jamming a couple nails through and out of a flashlight that attacks like a knife. My original idea was a meat fork but it technically wouldn't work since the prongs are connected.

 

I liked my idea of a Tier 0 int weapon just being a blowpipe lol

 

Fun, unique, quirky but probably not actually as good as the alternative build options, perfect for int! You could even go so far as making a narcotic ammo that slows zombies or puts them to sleep for a couple of seconds using snowberries on your darts, thus giving snowberries a use!

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