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29 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

Oh man, speaking of weapons that need a buff really badly, that thing (the magnum). Most pointless red headed step child in the entire game, does *anyone* ever use that? I've never even had a Vulture to compare it to as even end game when I had all the other T3's ages prior, I still never got a single vulture in loot or for sale, but had tons of magnums. Every time I've tried to use that it's just . . .why? I honestly prefer the 9mm to it even late game

 

I use a Vulture when I am doing T5 Dungeon Crawls. The magnum does do more damage, however, it cannot be silenced. The magazine also cannot be expanded. I use a magnum with AP rounds on horde nights to kill demolishers. Fully maxed out with a 2x scope, it works really well for that one thing alone. Though I feel a sniper or a marksman rifle would probably be better for that with the larger magazines and faster fire rate. Certainly if you are perked into it. I don't even know what the marksman rifle is supposed to do now otherwise.

 

2 hours ago, madmole said:

I disagree, clubs smoke knives, but knives are fun too. Knocking a guy down is way better than him bleeding where you still need to run away.

Did you forget that when you are perked into deep cuts, your enemy is slowed? There is no running away. There is only attacking another target while the previous one dies. Not to mention, you can't harvest an animal with a club. Your system puts so much weight in inventory slots, that even saving one matters. It's another reason why the candies are not OP. They take up yet another inventory slot. Once you have a steel pic, carting around lock picks and candy just to open a safe is a complete waste of time and inventory space.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Gazz said:

Every time someone claims that blades are weak, someone else pipes up with them being very strong

 

Consistent Testing™ solves everything! TTK is the baseline test that works best for most games, just pick a specific enemy, time how fast it dies to each build, and you've got a pretty unbiased test for 1 vs 1 at least. Definitely not perfect though, since it's just 1 vs 1, and some things are really bad in groups, like the spear being REALLY bad for groups

 

 

  

11 minutes ago, CoolJ said:

Did you forget that when you are perked into deep cuts, your enemy is slowed?

 

 

Stun >>>>>>>>>>>> Slow

 

Club staggers and knocks them out, and also kills faster too. You should test the "trigger bleed and ignore them" as from my tests earlier it didn't do enough damage to matter even with a flaming shaft mod

 

  

11 minutes ago, CoolJ said:

Not to mention, you can't harvest an animal with a club

 

 

This is why I think the Axe is the one of the best late game melee weapon. TTK wasn't that much lower than Sledgehammer, it tears through wood, has pretty reasonable stamina use, gathers meat, staggers enemies decently etc. It's all around pretty good.

 

Club is just flat out OP at the moment, but it's arguable if it's even *worth* carrying a melee weapon at all late game, so the axe can do melee "good enough" and has a lot of utility too

Edited by Khalagar (see edit history)

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I have tested the bleed thoroughly. I use it. Also the machete in your example is a low roll. Mine does 42 damage maxed out. You really need to be perked into Deep Cuts for it to matter. Have you actually tried it with maxed deep cuts? When you get 7 consecutive bleeds going on an enemy, and just switch to killing anther enemy all together, that is going to change your TTK more than you think. I also don't melee radiated zombies. They are dead before they ever wake up.

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21 minutes ago, CoolJ said:

I use a Vulture when I am doing T5 Dungeon Crawls. The magnum does do more damage, however, it cannot be silenced. The magazine also cannot be expanded. I use a magnum with AP rounds on horde nights to kill demolishers. Fully maxed out with a 2x scope, it works really well for that one thing alone. Though I feel a sniper or a marksman rifle would probably be better for that with the larger magazines and faster fire rate. Certainly if you are perked into it. I don't even know what the marksman rifle is supposed to do now otherwise.

 

Did you forget that when you are perked into deep cuts, your enemy is slowed? There is no running away. There is only attacking another target while the previous one dies. Not to mention, you can't harvest an animal with a club. Your system puts so much weight in inventory slots, that even saving one matters. It's another reason why the candies are not OP. They take up yet another inventory slot. Once you have a steel pic, carting around lock picks and candy just to open a safe is a complete waste of time and inventory space.

It is probably close when you weigh in all the factors, really it depends on your style and what makes you feel like a badass. I think clubs are better for sure early game but maybe later on knives start to catch up.

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On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2020 at 4:52 AM, wolfbain5 said:

no thanks, I know where you have been. "Devega! someone at the door for you!"

Oh he's here again to talk about our lord and savior, Madmole?

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, madmole said:

It is probably close when you weigh in all the factors, really it depends on your style and what makes you feel like a badass. I think clubs are better for sure early game but maybe later on knives start to catch up.

 

I would hope that is idea anyway. They feel pretty balanced to me. I only ever get SexyT level one. It is all the class needs. Other melee weapons require more points into it than that. It's just a play style change. If you take advantage of all the class attributes when you can, there are distinct advantages to perking into any of them. Knives are fine.

 

I will say that if you think a full length shotgun with a choke only has a range of six meters, you need to actually shoot a shotgun. I know you want to keep the range down for balance reasons. However, six meters is laughable. My positively ancient Browning A12 patterns 13-16 inches with 00 high brass at twenty meters. Granted I had to pay a gunsmith to fit a proper choke. It was still way better than six meters even with the horrible adjustable thing they called a choke that came on the gun. I would say that there is no problem for them to go out to ten or eleven meters and they still won't be a rifle. Slugs being so short range in this game is a travesty. They wont replace rifles for long range because people that perk into rifles will still use rifles. It would just give strength characters the ability to switch to longer range round if they want to hit something farther away. Keep in mind that it will still cost an inventory slot to carry them and they are way too expensive to use them exclusively. Polymer is far more expensive than brass and paper. Keeping shotguns at such a low range for balance is not any different than making the rifles useless at close range for "balance". It is currently pointless to shoot at a circling vulture with a shotgun. Considering that the shotgun is the go to fouling weapon of choice, it seems kinda contrived.

 

Back when you didn't have a perk system supporting the use of specific weapons, maybe it made sense. I don't feel like the range penalty is warranted.

Edited by CoolJ (see edit history)

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Has the few-second-delay-lag been fixed already when encountering new POI's?

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1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

Consistent Testing™ solves everything! TTK is the baseline test that works best for most games, just pick a specific enemy, time how fast it dies to each build, and you've got a pretty unbiased test for 1 vs 1 at least. Definitely not perfect though, since it's just 1 vs 1, and some things are really bad in groups, like the spear being REALLY bad for groups

This mindset is why these discussions are so funny to watch.

If all weapons were set up to be good at an irish boxing approach then yes, it would be optimal.

Since weapons are balanced asymmetrical it serves no purpose.

 

One example: With your approach 2 turrets must be as strong as an auto shotgun or M60 because they are "a weapon" and all weapons are to be tested in isolation and in the same manner.

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Damn Mad Mole You guys have been Busy.. Whether you remember me or not I just want to begin with.. I'm Proud of You guys and what you have accomplished.

and follow up with That I'm honored so many of my modded features have made it into the game now 😃

 

Yes of course I'm cooking something up It should look pretty familiar right down to the science of it Be on the lookout in the mod forum. 

While I'mat it where is my old friend Valmar? I need someone to get me up to speed with how the new modding works and He isn't even on my steam list anymore and these new programs seem clunky compared to what we used back in 2014ish or maybe again I'm just not sure how to use it right lol.

 

Either way boys Sorry for the several year hiatus And I'm So proud to call this the greatest game of all time 😃 see ya around.

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Posted (edited)

@faatal (or anyone else that knows) How hard would it be to make a hotkey map to where you can toggle the display of wires on or off? Some playthroughs I like the challenge of making my wires neat and tidy, or hidden - and others like this one - where it's just in experimental - I've got wires all over the place and - I'd really like to just turn them off sometimes with like an F-key or something.  It's not a big deal - but if was something quick and easy to do - it would be cool. 

 

 

Edited by Doctor3D (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Gazz said:

This mindset is why these discussions are so funny to watch.

If all weapons were set up to be good at an irish boxing approach then yes, it would be optimal.

Since weapons are balanced asymmetrical it serves no purpose.

 

One example: With your approach 2 turrets must be as strong as an auto shotgun or M60 because they are "a weapon" and all weapons are to be tested in isolation and in the same manner.

That would be ideal. In a  mathematically entropic gaming universe. I mean it's like being German and Australian at the same time : you get good looks AND politeness AND funny accent in the same package. That's unfair, plz nerf.

Edited by Blake_ (see edit history)

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3 hours ago, Gazz said:

This mindset is why these discussions are so funny to watch.

If all weapons were set up to be good at an irish boxing approach then yes, it would be optimal.

Since weapons are balanced asymmetrical it serves no purpose.

 

One example: With your approach 2 turrets must be as strong as an auto shotgun or M60 because they are "a weapon" and all weapons are to be tested in isolation and in the same manner.

Or you could interact with facts and numbers and teach us those "methods" to balance stuff, instead of just chiming in to state how funny our discussions are, but to each their own I guess.

 

I really wonder how you'd qualify the "asymmetrical balance" of some things right now. How do you feel about the spears right now ? Because in my book, their melee damage is laughable, their throw is high risk and is frankly bad in a 1vX scenario, sometimes you can't properly unstuck the spear from the zed, when you play with more than one, the other one goes back to your inventory... I mean quite frankly if you could enlighten me on how balanced they are from an asymmetrical point of view, I'm sure I'd dig it, but right now I don't.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Doctor3D said:

@faatal (or anyone else that knows) How hard would it be to make a hotkey map to where you can toggle the display of wires on or off? Some playthroughs I like the challenge of making my wires neat and tidy, or hidden - and others like this one - where it's just in experimental - I've got wires all over the place and - I'd really like to just turn them off sometimes with like an F-key or something.  It's not a big deal - but if was something quick and easy to do - it would be cool. 

 

 

I suggested a while back wires (electric fence wire exempted) should only be visible with the wire tool in hand.  I hate messy wiring too.  

 

I also wish for a one touch restart on lock picks.  I usually reach for a drink or something and most times, I'm about to take a sip when the pick breaks.  Set drink down, hold E, left click, repeat.  Maybe that handy F-key could be used to quickly restart lockpicking with just one hand.

 

Also an auto-walk / cruise control for vehicles is sorely missed.  I mean literally sorely as never being able to take my hands off the keyboard or mouse are giving me carpal I think...

Edited by Ezed (see edit history)

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33 minutes ago, beHypE said:

Or you could interact with facts and numbers and teach us those "methods" to balance stuff, instead of just chiming in to state how funny our discussions are, but to each their own I guess.

No, I don' have to pull back the curtain on all aspects of balancing.

 

The proof that there is something is all the players popping up and countering pretty much every such one-sided post that tries to explain how item x, y or z are useless.

"Everyone knows" that the stun baton does not measure up to other melee weapons. Then the other day I saw Jonah on a stream clearing a T5 POI on insane/nightmare with a stun baton and very rarely a regular pistol. It's not even supposed to do that without the bots but it's clearly doable anyway.

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11 hours ago, madmole said:

Not likely unless you are meta gaming it like you do. Shotgun with breachers or c4 does the trick easily too.

In other words, who would waste experience points in the lockpicking perk?

 

I think the lockpicking mechanic should be an actual minigame instead of what it is now. If it's up to the player's skill to open the safe instead of random chance, it might offer better ways to balance the candy, the perk and the breaching ammo/C4. 

7 hours ago, Khalagar said:

Most pointless red headed step child in the entire game, does *anyone* ever use that? I've never even had a Vulture to compare it to as even end game when I had all the other T3's ages prior, I still never got a single vulture in loot or for sale, but had tons of magnums. Every time I've tried to use that it's just . . .why? I honestly prefer the 9mm to it even late game

Agreed. Even a T6 magnum is disappointing to use. Reaaally slow reload, doesn't hold many rounds, slow rate of fire, low damage (LOW DAMAGE????) and hard to get. It needs some serious love.

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1 hour ago, beHypE said:

Or you could interact with facts and numbers and teach us those "methods" to balance stuff, instead of just chiming in to state how funny our discussions are, but to each their own I guess.

 

I really wonder how you'd qualify the "asymmetrical balance" of some things right now. How do you feel about the spears right now ? Because in my book, their melee damage is laughable, their throw is high risk and is frankly bad in a 1vX scenario, sometimes you can't properly unstuck the spear from the zed, when you play with more than one, the other one goes back to your inventory... I mean quite frankly if you could enlighten me on how balanced they are from an asymmetrical point of view, I'm sure I'd dig it, but right now I don't.

 

And yet here I am, perfectly comfortable going 1v1, 1v2, 1v3, 1v4, etc. with Insane zombies (radiated at that) with a level 5/6 steel spear, preferably one that is fully kitted out in mods. By that point the left-click attack is a viable attack move, as you can knock down one enemy, throw it at another, and rinse and repeat until the zombies die. Sitting where they are, spears are perfectly fine imo.

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Gazz said:

No, I don' have to pull back the curtain on all aspects of balancing.

 

The proof that there is something is all the players popping up and countering pretty much every such one-sided post that tries to explain how item x, y or z are useless.

"Everyone knows" that the stun baton does not measure up to other melee weapons. Then the other day I saw Jonah on a stream clearing a T5 POI on insane/nightmare with a stun baton and very rarely a regular pistol. It's not even supposed to do that without the bots but it's clearly doable anyway.

You still failed to answer my simple question regarding spears.

 

Also, what's that trend where you seem to counter every argument either by reduction ad absurdum, or by giving a reference to the odd guy who seemingly made it work ? "Everyone" claimed stun batons were terrible in A18 and they were. Not basing that on voices from forums, but I played a 60 hour game with a pure Int build and gave them their chance (or should I say, I wasted 5 points on them). I haven't played with them in A19 but I heard there's a new book series and candy. Maybe that is the reason why that Jonah guy cleared a T5 POI with it ? Also, just because one guy makes something work doesn't mean it's balanced. I could kill noobs with the heavy machine guns on CS:GO easy peasy, that doesn't mean my weapon choice is good compared to an AK47.

 

But yeah, you don't have to disclose anything on any part of balancing; but in that case, when you chime in like you did, you're just coming off as the guy on his horse showing he knows better than everyone because he's the guy in charge. I hope you do, and don't just show it.

 

EDIT

  

5 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

And yet here I am, perfectly comfortable going 1v1, 1v2, 1v3, 1v4, etc. with Insane zombies (radiated at that) with a level 5/6 steel spear, preferably one that is fully kitted out in mods. By that point the left-click attack is a viable attack move, as you can knock down one enemy, throw it at another, and rinse and repeat until the zombies die. Sitting where they are, spears are perfectly fine imo.

Sigh, I bet I can find a guy who does that with no weapon while picking his nose. How does anyone doing anything with X mean X is balanced compared to Y ?

Edited by beHypE (see edit history)
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3 minutes ago, beHypE said:

Sigh, I bet I can find a guy who does that with no weapon while picking his nose. How does anyone doing anything with X mean X is balanced compared to Y ?

Because to each their own.

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1 minute ago, MechanicalLens said:

Because to each their own.

That's one hell of an argument for balance... let's all just allow people to use their hands when playing football, those who don't like it don't do it, to each their own, it's balanced !

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, beHypE said:

That's one hell of an argument for balance... let's all just allow people to use their hands when playing football, those who don't like it don't do it, to each their own, it's balanced !

Here in America we DO use our hands while playing football.... soccer now is a bit different...

Edited by katarynna
spelling... i haven't finished my first coffee (see edit history)
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45 minutes ago, Gazz said:

No, I don' have to pull back the curtain on all aspects of balancing.

 

The proof that there is something is all the players popping up and countering pretty much every such one-sided post that tries to explain how item x, y or z are useless.

"Everyone knows" that the stun baton does not measure up to other melee weapons. Then the other day I saw Jonah on a stream clearing a T5 POI on insane/nightmare with a stun baton and very rarely a regular pistol. It's not even supposed to do that without the bots but it's clearly doable anyway.

I think everyone here is forgetting to draw the line on what's "possible" and what's good. From my experience, perked in or not, every weapon is good against the zombies besides the goddamn spear and knuckles. I tried perking into the spear, still wasn't worth it at all, too much stamina use on power attack, laughable throwing speed, stabbing seems to have ridiculously small range for a spear and low damage/DPS overall. Same goes for the fist weapon, too much stamina use (bone knife uses less), low damage, high risk low reward and i believe it's even slower than the knife.

 

Now, the zombies area easily "cheesable" in the game, I think even you developers are aware of that (and this happens with pretty much any game), and it's not a necessarily difficult game within the combat aspect. Even without perks, you can use any weapon and still do good (which I like mind you), and the stun baton is definitely not as weak as some think. My point is, if you look at things this way, then of course everything is either gonna look fine or bad, because 10000 variables will determine your outcome in a fight (maximum stamina, healing items, armor, speed reduction, room you're in, type of zombie). Low max stamina means useless sledgehammer vs 2+ oponents, radiated soldier zombies means weak knifes or melee in general. Also, the dismemberment chance makes literally all weapons "broken" later on, because of the headshot insta kills, so fast attacks > anything else.

 

I don't believe we should be seeing numbers, but more as in utility. Right now, from my perspective it goes as follows:

 

Crowd Control: Shotguns (legs n chest), stun baton, sledgehammer (perked in), Club

Stealth/Clearing: Rifles, Bow, Crossbow

1 vs the World: Pistol, knife, Automatic Weapons

1v1: All weapons, because all of them "work"

 

The spear and knuckles, just don't have any utility besides sucking at what others already do well. They don't do what you expect them to do, the spear should be one hell of a melee weapon, slow but steady, low DPS, but high skill high damage type of weapon (you have to force yourself to use it). The knuckles are just slow (who the f*ck punches at that speed?), use too much stamina than what they're supposed to and get out damaged by anything else.

2 minutes ago, katarynna said:

Here in America we DO use our hands while playing football.... soccer now is a bit different...

hands... FOOTball...interesting way of naming rugby. The guy who decided that would be the name was not the sharpest tool in the shed.

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27 minutes ago, beHypE said:

That's one hell of an argument for balance... let's all just allow people to use their hands when playing football, those who don't like it don't do it, to each their own, it's balanced !

 

As far as Stun Batons, I can tell you they are MUCH better balanced  than they were last Alpha. I think combining them with the robotics turret was genius. The Stun Baton doesn't 'have' to be easy.  I know that's not YOUR argument. But, i've heard others say something similar such as the stun baton not as good as some other melee weapons.

 

You have to ask: Good for who? You can do some amazing things with doing a mostly AGI-focused build and perking the top two INTs. In coop it's an absolute blast - and verging on OP not the opposite. Especially when you combine the candies..My wife absolutely wrecks stuff in melee with it - and i'm basically just combing up behind her cleaning up the scraps. 

 

I just don't see anything wrong with the balance at all with it. I think a lot of guys that try the Stun Baton - came over from the Sledgehammer play style and are expecting that kinda of power - and maybe trying to use it in a way it's not intended for. 

 

I really think the Perk system and balance is much, much closer now as far as overall balance than it ever was. And, things can never be perfectly balanced because not everything is in the game yet. We don't even have bandits in it - there's gonna be some offbalance in weapons and how the perks work together to build something. For what this is so far, it's damn good if you ask me. I gotta even give props to MadMole - (I think it was his idea to do candies) - I think it was extremely useful in addition another layer to the game. When he mentioned candies at the beginning of this diary to replace so much food - I thought, "Well that aint gonna do much" - but man was I wrong. 

 

I just don't have a problem at all with the balance. No one I personally play or talk to personally about it does, either. We're pretty much unanimous. It's making progress.

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13 minutes ago, RhinoW said:

<snipped for space... weapons yadda yadda yadda, knuckles bad>

Not to mention that with the new critical hit system, the last thing you want is you get hit consistently, and that's the point behind the brawler build. Sure, knuckles prevent you from getting infected (infection is a joke as it stands though; no threat presented whatsoever unless you're on day 1), but what good is that if you get a concussion, an abrasion, and a sprained arm with every big encounter? "Then pull out your gun." Well, I suppose knuckles are best suited for 1v1 or 1v2 encounters now.

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7 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

Not to mention that with the new critical hit system, the last thing you want is you get hit consistently, and that's the point behind the brawler build. Sure, knuckles prevent you from getting infected (infection is a joke as it stands though; no threat presented whatsoever unless you're on day 1), but what good is that if you get a concussion, an abrasion, and a sprained arm with every big encounter? "Then pull out your gun." Well, I suppose knuckles are best suited for 1v1 or 1v2 encounters now.

All of the weapons, even the spear, "work" for 1v1 and 1v2 encounters with trash mobs. The problem here is that they don't really have a purpose besides being a new weapon type. And obviously the sparring weapon is supposed to be for 1v1 encounters, but even then, it gets @%$*#! on by the rest. The principle when adding a weapon is, "what will make the player choose this instead of that?", and right now the knuckles bring nothing to the table that makes it an interesting weapon, besides, again, being a different weapon type. It could knockout zombies with more frequency, while dealing low damage, could be a sever crowd control badass weapon, but no, it's just a @%$*#!ty, slower knife that doesn't make enemies bleed.

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1 minute ago, RhinoW said:

All of the weapons, even the spear, "work" for 1v1 and 1v2 encounters with trash mobs. The problem here is that they don't really have a purpose besides being a new weapon type. And obviously the sparring weapon is supposed to be for 1v1 encounters, but even then, it gets @%$*#! on by the rest. The principle when adding a weapon is, "what will make the player choose this instead of that?", and right now the knuckles bring nothing to the table that makes it an interesting weapon, besides, again, being a different weapon type. It could knockout zombies with more frequency, while dealing low damage, could be a sever crowd control badass weapon, but no, it's just a @%$*#!ty, slower knife that doesn't make enemies bleed.

I just don't agree - it's not always about how does X fit into some grand scheme of balance. In this case, lets take the Knuckles. No one who picks a Knuckle class thinks to themself - oh this should be easy. Come'on... A Knuckle-class is fun - it doesn't have be to as good as or compete with another meta-choice. It's a fun choice.

 

You say it's not an interesting weapon. Well, I disagree. Have you ever played a drunken brawler? Well, you can if you want to - even if you don't find it interesting - i've done it - and it is.

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