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madmole

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3 minutes ago, Ranzera said:

Your load, regardless of source affects you less because you're used to hauling stuff around.

That is not how I was imagining this perk... I always thought Pack Mule is more about how good you're at packing your stuff in the space you have.

It's like a frequent traveler who learns to be very efficient at using the space in his trolley.

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19 minutes ago, Ranzera said:

If anything, the Q6 stone shovel needs a look. It's better than the entire iron shovel tier.

This is wrong, Iron is 2 points better than stone, but the randomness can make it possible for stone to be better than iron.

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Just now, madmole said:

This is wrong, Iron is 2 points better than stone, but the randomness can make it possible for stone to be better than iron.

2 points is meaningless. A quality 6 Stone Shovel can 2 hit dirt/resource blocks. An Iron Shovel is completely moot in this situation.

7 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

That is not how I was imagining this perk... I always thought Pack Mule is more about how good you're at packing your stuff in the space you have.

It's like a frequent traveler who learns to be very efficient at using the space in his trolley.

Sounds like you're only seeing the pack in the pack mule.

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5 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

That is not how I was imagining this perk... I always thought Pack Mule is more about how good you're at packing your stuff in the space you have.

It's like a frequent traveler who learns to be very efficient at using the space in his trolley.

I've thought of it that way, but also thought of it as you are strong and can carry more. Whatever floats your immersion boat. Since it is under strength I'm going with "you are stronger".

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Ranzera said:

2 points is meaningless. A quality 6 Stone Shovel can 2 hit dirt/resource blocks. An Iron Shovel is completely moot in this situation.

Agreed. Unless you're deep into Miner 69er and you have multiple points into sex rex, it doesn't matter if you're still using a level 6 stone shovel vs a level 3-4 iron since the latter will still take the same amount of hits to dig up the terrain, again, at the cost of more stamina. In my last playthrough I ended up using my level 6 stone shovel until I had acquired an ergonomic grip mod, I had nearly maxed out the mining perks, and I had crafted a level 5 iron shovel; the level 4 iron shovel I had crafted earlier on I ended up storing away, eventually selling.

 

I'm not saying it has to or not has to be looked at. One simply has to look beyond the numbers and if they're identical in terms of resource harvest speed, then you weigh the pros and cons.

Edited by MechanicalLens (see edit history)

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3 minutes ago, Ranzera said:

2 points is meaningless. A quality 6 Stone Shovel can 2 hit dirt/resource blocks. An Iron Shovel is completely moot in this situation.

Sounds like you're only seeing the pack in the pack mule.

Sorry I was looking at entity damage. It is 8 more BASE damage, which multiplies with mods installed, perks etc, so it is quite a lot more.

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2 minutes ago, madmole said:

I've thought of it that way, but also thought of it as you are strong and can carry more. Whatever floats your immersion boat. Since it is under strength I'm going with "you are stronger".

Yeah, maybe a bit of both... you can be as strong as you want but if you can't actually fit the things you're carrying on your back you're not going anywhere right? 😁

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Just now, madmole said:

Sorry I was looking at entity damage. It is 8 more BASE damage, which multiplies with mods installed, perks etc, so it is quite a lot more.

Again, true, but that's the end result. Until you get to that point - multiple mods including Grave Digger and an Ergonomic Grip, coffee, and a high-end iron shovel (level 5-6), it's simply not worth it if the resource harvest speed will be identical to the stone shovel, but the stone shovel takes far less stamina to swing and it only uses stones to repair. Again, the stone shovel will be outclassed, but from the get-go, a level 6 stone shovel will always outclass a basic level 4 iron shovel. 🙂

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, madmole said:

Sorry I was looking at entity damage. It is 8 more BASE damage, which multiplies with mods installed, perks etc, so it is quite a lot more.

It doesn't matter how much more it has until you can easily get to the point where you 1 hit dirt/resource blocks (in which case you have the same problem, except with the steel shovel).

 

You can 2 hit dirt and resource blocks for some amount of stamina with a stone shovel

You can 2 hit dirt and resource blocks for more stamina with an iron shovel

 

Thusly, the Iron Shovel is inferior to the Stone Shovel.

 

 

This is a problem unique to the shovel line, because they are used on low HP blocks.

Edited by Ranzera (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, madmole said:

Sorry I was looking at entity damage. It is 8 more BASE damage, which multiplies with mods installed, perks etc, so it is quite a lot more.

At the end of the day though people will only look at how many hits it will take to dig the most common blocks (dirt/rock/iron and so on...) so if they don't get a useful increase they'll just choose one over the other.

 

An example would be the Q6 Stone Shovel 2 shotting dirt having the second hit with 36 points left compared to the Q6 Iron Shovel 2 shotting dirt having just 10 points left (i.e.), this would make no difference at all when you dig dirt and maybe most people would stick with the Stone Shovel.

 

Edit: lol, Ranzera was quicker...

Edited by Jost Amman (see edit history)

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The new animal spawns are pretty good. Basically you rarely see big game, but see a decent amount of chickens and rabbits. They respawn every day so there is always a chance to see something, no matter how saturated the server is with people. I get by on 2-3 chickens or rabbits a day. No animal tracker otherwise I'm sure I'd be doing better. I had to eat a sham sandwich today and buy some food from the vending. I sucked it up and bought rank 2 of cooking so I could use the potatoes and corn I had piled up in some stews so I'm good.

I think people will like it. Zombies respawn a little faster than before too so the world feels a bit more populated. There isn't MORE than there was, but it's kind of like day one where you see them in every chunk.

Predators are out at night, but fairly rare. It isn't crazy like the last build. Food is available if you work for it, otherwise you can struggle, but its nice to go hunting and be able to find something even on a busy server, as long as you are moving and not right behind one guy who is also hunting you should be fine.

4 minutes ago, Ranzera said:

It doesn't matter how much more it has until you can easily get to the point where you 1 hit dirt/resource blocks (in which case you have the same problem, except with the steel shovel).

 

You can 2 hit dirt and resource blocks for some amount of stamina with a stone shovel

You can 2 hit dirt and resource blocks for more stamina with an iron shovel

 

Thusly, the Iron Shovel is inferior to the Stone Shovel.

 

 

This is a problem unique to the shovel line, because they are used on low HP blocks.

The real test is how much clay you can gather over 5 minutes under identical conditions. It might seem similar, but over time who has more clay which ultimately dug more blocks out?

I think there are some adjustments coming in the next patch, I told Gazz iron was a bit too heavy the other day so I think he lowered the weight 1 stam per second and that got me about 8 more hits with a pickaxe before gassing out (15 or 16 to 24).

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, madmole said:

The real test is how much clay you can gather over 5 minutes under identical conditions. It might seem similar, but over time who has more clay which ultimately dug more blocks out?

Given how easy it is to get a Q6 Stone Shovel to 2 shot dirt, it'll always get clay at least as fast as the Iron Shovel. The Iron Shovel has the opportunity to perform much worse, given the stamina demands. Not to mention the extra food requirement.

 

I'm not sure if it's possible to get a Q6 Iron Shovel up to 1 hitting dirt, but if it does, then the Steel Shovel isn't the best shovel. That would be its own problem.

Edited by Ranzera (see edit history)

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8 minutes ago, madmole said:

The real test is how much clay you can gather over 5 minutes under identical conditions. It might seem similar, but over time who has more clay which ultimately dug more blocks out?

I think there are some adjustments coming in the next patch, I told Gazz iron was a bit too heavy the other day so I think he lowered the weight 1 stam per second and that got me about 8 more hits with a pickaxe before gassing out (15 or 16 to 24).

Sounds good. :)

 

Because at the end of the day, the three factors that determine mining efficiency are as follows:

 

- Amount of resources harvested per terrain block (dictated by Mother Lode)

- Stamina usage (loss?)

- # of hits until terrain block is destroyed

 

In other words, if it takes the same amount of hits to destroy x terrain block between two different tiers of tools, then nothing changes, even if one of the tools has a higher block damage value than the other. With that in mind, the next factor must be taken into consideration which is stamina usage. Even if one of the tools (the one that costs more stamina to swing) is ever so slightly faster at acquiring more resources (ie. swing speed), then that positive is rendered invalid if you lose stamina using said tool, because every moment spent waiting for your stamina to regen is time you could be actively mining, even with a slightly slower tool. Block damage is important, but it's not the end all be all. :) 

 

Not to toot my own horn, but I think that rounds of this discussion pretty nicely. :)

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5 minutes ago, Ranzera said:

Given how easy it is to get a Q6 Stone Shovel to 2 shot dirt, it'll always get clay at least as fast as the Iron Shovel. The Iron Shovel has the opportunity to perform much worse, given the stamina demands. Not to mention the extra food requirement.

 

I'm not sure if it's possible to get a Q6 Iron Shovel up to 1 hitting dirt, but if it does, then the Steel Shovel isn't the best shovel. That would be its own problem.

I know this is never going to happen, so I'm just throwing the idea on the table for the sake of brainstorming...

IMO a good way to differentiate the three tool tiers would be to put a gate on block-farming (which would also make sense IRL).

 

Example:

  • Stone tools can only dig/break dirt, sand, coal and destroyed stone blocks
  • Iron tools can ALSO dig/break KNO3, Lead and Shale nodes and any type of Stone Block + Cobblestone/Concrete
  • Steel tools can ALSO dig/break Iron and R. Concrete (not Steel)

Or something along the lines...

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21 minutes ago, madmole said:

The new animal spawns are pretty good. Basically you rarely see big game, but see a decent amount of chickens and rabbits. They respawn every day so there is always a chance to see something, no matter how saturated the server is with people. I get by on 2-3 chickens or rabbits a day. No animal tracker otherwise I'm sure I'd be doing better. I had to eat a sham sandwich today and buy some food from the vending. I sucked it up and bought rank 2 of cooking so I could use the potatoes and corn I had piled up in some stews so I'm good.

I think people will like it. Zombies respawn a little faster than before too so the world feels a bit more populated. There isn't MORE than there was, but it's kind of like day one where you see them in every chunk.

These changes are quire exciting; animals won't be everywhere like they've broken out of a zoo, nor are they on the verge of extinction any longer. I cannot wait for the next patch, whenever that may arrive. 🙂

 

Have you felt a need to hunt for wolves and the like during the night, or have you been doing just fine?

 

Whatever the case may be, I can finally firmly say that the Animal Tracker and The Huntsman perks finally serve a purpose outside of MP. 🙂 Before you would have a king's feast on day 2-3 even if you weren't even trying; no more it seems like.

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14 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

These changes are quire exciting; animals won't be everywhere like they've broken out of a zoo, nor are they on the verge of extinction any longer. I cannot wait for the next patch, whenever that may arrive. 🙂

 

Have you felt a need to hunt for wolves and the like during the night, or have you been doing just fine?

 

Whatever the case may be, I can finally firmly say that the Animal Tracker and The Huntsman perks finally serve a purpose outside of MP. 🙂 Before you would have a king's feast on day 2-3 even if you weren't even trying; no more it seems like.

I have but found nothing. I'm waiting for the next build where I increased the chance for predator spawn at night. There is a low chance a wolves spawn in the forest during the day and z dog in the burnt forest.

I had to go to the near wasteland to dig up a chest and I was pretty nervous, because I know what cancer can spawn there and at night is a really bad place to be with an Armor rating of 25 and nothing but a pistol with no mods. It was about 5 pm when I left, but I didn't get there until about 10, it took longer to get there than I thought; quite a bit of cross country travel on my minibike. Then I get there about 10 pm and its actually IN the wasteland so I was dealing with destroyed stone instead of dirt so that slowed me down evern more. I was digging as fast as I could once I got through the stone, and an asian zombie came to check out the noise, so I had to get out of the hole and use a knife on him as a gun might be too loud, and I kept hearing  nearby dogs attacking something. I don't know if they were stuck trying to reach me or what, but I didn't want to find out.

The chest took longer than normal to find, the circle must have shrunk 4 or even 5 times. A vulture circled above me. Finally I got the chest, killed the guys who spawned and it was about 5 seconds til dusk and I got on my bike and got out of there, but the vulture was on my tail. I jumped off and dispatched him and harvested his guts right as the night time stinger went off and I got on my bike and got the hell out of there. I love those intense moments and doing a different than normal character build (agility instead of strength) made things pretty exciting.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, madmole said:

The real test is how much clay you can gather over 5 minutes under identical conditions. It might seem similar, but over time who has more clay which ultimately dug more blocks out?

I think there are some adjustments coming in the next patch, I told Gazz iron was a bit too heavy the other day so I think he lowered the weight 1 stam per second and that got me about 8 more hits with a pickaxe before gassing out (15 or 16 to 24).

 

Have you had a chance to test Impact Driver vs Ratchet? I mentioned it before, but basically the Impact Driver is not an upgrade over the Rachet as best I can tell. My level 6 Ratchet was drastically better than level 4 Impacts, and even compared  to my level 6 Impact the Ratchet is arguably better.

 

The Impact does a little more block damage, but not enough to save a hit on anything I've tested on, besides maybe on a bus or army truck. It takes more stamina and has the same attacks per second though, so it ends up with the impact hitting your stamina harder to break down the same items. Both 3 hit per stage on a car for example, so there's no point in using an impact over a Ratchet.

 

That said, I may just have a really strong Ratchet and a terrible roll Impact and it might matter more at high levels of the salvage perk. With 1 point in salvage, mine is basically a straight downgrade / side grade to my ratchet, trading stamina for slightly more durability


 

Spoiler

 

hvXAhOK.png

ptBOv4v.png

 

 

It would make sense if the impact shaved at least 1 hit off breaking down a car, but it seems to miss any kind of break point with it's higher block damage so it doesn't have much point atm imo

Edited by Khalagar (see edit history)

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From reading the differences in the stone to iron, I always played thinking that the stone - iron - steel meant more resources per tier so more stamina used but overall resources were higher in a shorter time, i could be wrong lol.  Unless that is something to make for incentive to use iron and steel early on.

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58 minutes ago, madmole said:

The real test is how much clay you can gather over 5 minutes under identical conditions. It might seem similar, but over time who has more clay which ultimately dug more blocks out?

I think there are some adjustments coming in the next patch, I told Gazz iron was a bit too heavy the other day so I think he lowered the weight 1 stam per second and that got me about 8 more hits with a pickaxe before gassing out (15 or 16 to 24).

I noticed that iron shovels arent very attractive too. How many strikes to destroy a dirt block is the main consideration for shovel usage, but stamina is the other. Iron seem to be higher stam cost and an insignificant amount of damage more (insignificant because it wont reduce the total number of strikes to destroy a block).

 

 

One consideration for balance could just be tuning the tools around stamina usage, disconnect block damage from quality and fix it at a set abount (5 hits for stone, 4 for iron and 3 for steel) then make quality affect stamina usage (30 stam use at level1 down to 12 at level 6) this way quality is always important, iron will always have some advantage over stone, but you might consider keeping that level6 stone shovel if you have more issues with stamina as opposed to the level 1 iron shovel.

 

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1 hour ago, Adam the Waster said:

*harry potter theme starts playing*

Nah, chitty-chitty-bang-bang

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Oh hey @madmole im looking to repair the wall around my base, im using the prowlin petes roof as a base for crafting and the outer wall has been broken in spots by the zombies, i know its a centred piece but i cannot find one that is 2/4 centered, help lol

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Posted (edited)

Do you like hunting but hate having to deal with those pesky predators? 

Hate getting bit,clawed and chewed?

Having to deal with those bumps and bruises?

Replacing missing limbs? 😉

No problem, just have the zombies kill them for you. 

That's right, the zombies will kill things like wolves and even bears for you. All you have to do is go in and finish off the zed and get to harvesting. 

 

Your welcome! ☺️

Edited by sillls (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, madmole said:

I have but found nothing. I'm waiting for the next build where I increased the chance for predator spawn at night. There is a low chance a wolves spawn in the forest during the day and z dog in the burnt forest.

I had to go to the near wasteland to dig up a chest and I was pretty nervous, because I know what cancer can spawn there and at night is a really bad place to be with an Armor rating of 25 and nothing but a pistol with no mods. It was about 5 pm when I left, but I didn't get there until about 10, it took longer to get there than I thought; quite a bit of cross country travel on my minibike. Then I get there about 10 pm and its actually IN the wasteland so I was dealing with destroyed stone instead of dirt so that slowed me down evern more. I was digging as fast as I could once I got through the stone, and an asian zombie came to check out the noise, so I had to get out of the hole and use a knife on him as a gun might be too loud, and I kept hearing  nearby dogs attacking something. I don't know if they were stuck trying to reach me or what, but I didn't want to find out.

The chest took longer than normal to find, the circle must have shrunk 4 or even 5 times. A vulture circled above me. Finally I got the chest, killed the guys who spawned and it was about 5 seconds til dusk and I got on my bike and got out of there, but the vulture was on my tail. I jumped off and dispatched him and harvested his guts right as the night time stinger went off and I got on my bike and got the hell out of there. I love those intense moments and doing a different than normal character build (agility instead of strength) made things pretty exciting.

I would never usually wish this upon anyone, but I hope a wolf pack comes your way. :) Nothing like chewing the ends of your fingernails for sustenance for the first couple of nights only for some home delivery service to arrive at your doorstep. I had this happen in my previous world; it was pretty fantastic, saved me a night's worth of hunting.

 

Gotta love those intense moments, like you said. The Joe Bro's builders POI has scarred me for life more than once, to the point where I've banned myself from going there even for a quest. Lol.

 

A small trick I learned (exploit? strategy?) is if a predator is chasing your %@& down, try to search for a nearby zombie and get it between you and the carnivorous animal. 9 times out of 10 I find that the predator switches its aggro from you to the zombie instead. Something you might want to keep in mind if you're on foot. ;) Tip: This tactic doesn't work with boars.

Edited by MechanicalLens (see edit history)
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Madmole:

 

You didn't happen to record that session did you? Wouldn't mind seeing it if so. Sounds really intense.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ranzera said:

??

 

My computer has 32gb of RAM running in quad channel mode and I built this thing 4 years ago. That's not a crazy amount of RAM to have, especially now.

No it's not a "crazy" amount, it was when I built it 8 years ago. Such amounts are more common now, but it is still more than most need. It is however over-the-top for a game to tap it all out, something I have never managed to do otherwise, and I put my machine to the test quite often for work stuff. Not sure what your point is.

* no need to reply, unless brief and/or relevant here, don't want to get distracted.

Edited by Mechanimal (see edit history)

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