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Alpha 19 Dev Diary

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18 minutes ago, RhinoW said:

That's not a bug, if you drop molotovs from your inventory they explode on the floor (since they "break", though water bottles don't funny enough). It's just an unfortunate situation that you found yourself in, since all items are automatically dropped.

i thought that was for pipe bombs and TNT!

 

 

I GOT A IDEA!

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8 hours ago, Xtrakicking said:

Yeah, that would be good. I'm not against the new system, I just wish it were less artificial. Eventually, even new players might think something's off when they realise they're only finding stone tools in loot crates, crappy spears in locked gun safes and nothing else, especially considering new players will probably take longer to level up than others and thus spend more days only finding stone loot.

I never once questioned the best rpgs of all time when looting. I diablo I got what I got. Same in Skyrim, Fallout, etc. I opened up a loot container and got something a little better and I was happy about it. You just aren't used to it. Once we get pipe guns and a bit more supplies to craft your own things it might feel less repetitive which I think is the larger problem.


We will have game staged increases in the harder biomes you can go there to get non primitive loot early game but it will be a lot harder.

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2 minutes ago, madmole said:

Once we get pipe guns and a bit more supplies to craft your own things it might feel less repetitive which I think is the larger problem.

Sounds good. Looking forward to it.

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6 hours ago, Troxism said:

 

I do play on higher difficulties (Survivalist, sometimes Insane). I could see the value in the snare part of the bleed on Nightmare speed, but on any speed below that you can outrun the zombies anyways (and if you have running zombies, you wouldn't fight multiples at once in the early game anyways). Ultimately the issue I have with knives is they just deal awful damage (even 7 stack bleed deals damage very slowly, and the base damage of knives isn't great). Even if you argue the snare is useful, the overall damage really needs to go up, there isn't any reason knives should deal like half the DPS of clubs or fists. Even the sneak bonus is sort of meh for knives, since bows/crossbows usually deal more damage on the sneak attack and have range to boot. Honestly on Insane + Nightmare, the best tool early on is the Blunderbuss (as it snares enemies much more effectively then the 10% of the rank 1 knife perk, and you can carry multiples to help with the reloading issue).

 

My comment on stealth wasn't that it wasn't useful, it was that it's situational/not needed and therefore shouldn't be as expensive as it currently is to make it more attractive to spec into. Even on Insane + Nightmare, early POI looting can be accomplished by using the Blunderbuss or placing blocks in doors and upgrading them so the zombies can't rush you while you attack over the block. It's a bit slow/tedious, but so is stealth, and on those settings it's always going to be slow in the early game, and this approach doesn't require spending a bunch of points (hence why I think stealth shouldn't be so expensive to make it more competitive).  By the time you have a good rifle + silencer, stealth will be purely a bonus anyways, it's mainly relevant in the early game when you are weak. The moment you have even a basic pistol you can just blow every zombie away if you really want to even on Insane (okay maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but it's not that far off).

 

As for fighting horde night on foot, unless your playing on Nightmare speed, you can easily do that even without a single point in Run and Gun (zombies are slow, esp if you can get them temporarily caught on something), at least with the faster reloading weapons. I've done it with the Desert Vulture or Pistol, or even the SMG, or with Shotguns (Automatics kind of want at least 1 point in Run and Gun to do that due to long reloads, and Rifles just aren't well designed for that sort of combat). The main reason I don't usually fight hordes on foot is it's hard to use explosives to their full effect which makes the horde night take all night and wastes a lot of time as your spending a lot of time running, but it is pretty fun to do. Again, I did say Run and Gun has it's place, but I don't think it's as mandatory as some people claim, even for mobile combat (depending on the weapon used). Parkour can also be used very effectively if you setup some 2 or 3 high pillars in your combat arena when fighting the horde on foot too, to give you breathing room to use healing items if you got hit, or regain some stamina/use more drinks.

 

Anyways, I don't mean any of this in a dismissive way, there obviously are multiple ways to do things in this game. My goal was to point out things that were IMHO a little weak to bring them more into line with other options, not to say that those options are entirely useless currently.

I've been playing a stealth build and had no problem killing zeds on day 1 with a bone knife. 4 power attacks to the face typically does it and I still have gas left over to party!

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2 hours ago, Alpacko said:

Do you still think it strange that cupboards get new loot every 30 days? 

 

yes

 

  Reveal hidden contents

its an option for MP servers and should be disabled by default on SP/coop games, imo.

 

Poor survivor got into the building, stowed away some stuff in a cupboard and proceeded to get mauled by zombies within those 30 days.

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5 minutes ago, madmole said:

I never once questioned the best rpgs of all time when looting. I diablo I got what I got. Same in Skyrim, Fallout, etc. I opened up a loot container and got something a little better and I was happy about it. You just aren't used to it. Once we get pipe guns and a bit more supplies to craft your own things it might feel less repetitive which I think is the larger problem.


We will have game staged increases in the harder biomes you can go there to get non primitive loot early game but it will be a lot harder.

Sounds good. :) My only two minor constructive criticisms is that it currently feels very repetitive (like you said, the addition of pipe weapons should fix this) and imo you should never find level 1 and 2 stone tools in loot (again, I believe you mentioned you think this shouldn't be a thing?).

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Just now, Tmodloader said:

Poor survivor got into the building, stowed away some stuff in a cupboard and proceeded to get mauled by zombies within those 30 days.

Body or it didn't happen 😛

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1 minute ago, Xtrakicking said:

What's the problem with that? Since madmole always seems so concerned about what new players might feel about the game, I just expressed how new players might as well think the same way about loot that I do.

 

Exactly, and I was expressing how new players might think as well. Whats good for the Marlene is good for the Edgar. 🙃

 

1 minute ago, Xtrakicking said:

 

When you're weak because the game forces you to be weak, no matter how much you loot and explore, it's not fun. Hopefully the devs will find the right balance.

Sure. High danger/loot zones seem already a near certainty, so you can have shortcuts. But I feel the game already has lots of lucky finds you can make, even in stone age. Any book or mod that fits the current spezialisation you are going for is a such a lucky find. Anvil, workstation recipes, in fact all recipes are things that can catapult you forward. And as far as I know it is still possible to have a rare find of a tier1 weapon even in the stone age.

 

But even before A19 I opened hundreds of safes and treasure boxes and didn't find a single item i needed. The game, even now, has not enough precious items to allow something good in every safe. That isn't new. 

 

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Just now, meganoth said:

But even before A19 I opened hundreds of safes and treasure boxes and didn't find a single item i needed. The game, even now, has not enough precious items to allow something good in every safe. That isn't new. 

 

I suggest playing with loss of loot on death, it makes everything count a lot more.

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5 minutes ago, Tmodloader said:

 

I suggest playing with loss of loot on death, it makes everything count a lot more.

 

When I KNOW that the game is over and deleted when I die, I feel a keen edgy feeling that makes the game really vivid.  The deleting of the game makes me try all the more and I sometimes add points to the start of the game for believability.  

 

I'm right in doing so IMO, unless 7D2D part 1 is a dream or the player is in a coma...  Part 2 would be scary if you wake up and you find yourself in something like Episode 1 of The Walking Dead.  Except the building your in is on fire... and it gets worse from there!  😁

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38 minutes ago, madmole said:

We will have game staged increases in the harder biomes you can go there to get non primitive loot early game but it will be a lot harder.

this is exactly what would "fix" the primitive stage for me. i'm a huge fan of being rewarded for taking on areas that are higher level than i am, in any game. a mixture of biomes and certain POIs that contain superior loot sounds awesome. would these areas continue being superior, even in very high game stages? could help late game to have much harder areas to take on.

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Hey, is anyone else getting the following glitches?

-Bear carcasses move away from the player when gutting

-Random lag spikes when looking north, regardless of where

-Random phasing through floors when inventory is open

-Container searching causing the game to crash

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20 minutes ago, K1dby said:

Hey, is anyone else getting the following glitches?

-Bear carcasses move away from the player when gutting

Yes, but I always just put it down to bear carcasses not having any "weight" when they are rag dolled.  Immersion breaking and stupidly funny at the same time.

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I think most people finding the weapon/tool loot repetitive need to change their expectations. There's tons of good loot to be found, like meganoth said. Maybe looting gun safes & shotgun's messiah isn't the best plan early game, but there's tons of value looting other POIs in the search of books, mods, schematics and recipes. 

 

Side note, we found a treasure map and the treasure chest was locked, is this intended ? 7000HP of metal with stone axes was painful, especially after having spent all the time digging it up already (that being said, the 6000 dukes inside felt good 🤑)

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, beHypE said:

Side note, we found a treasure map and the treasure chest was locked, is this intended ? 7000HP of metal with stone axes was painful, especially after having spent all the time digging it up already

careful with this one, it will get you band out of twitch chat 😝

they seem to feel pretty strongly about this.

Edited by STyK_ (see edit history)

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1 hour ago, Xtrakicking said:

When you're weak because the game forces you to be weak, no matter how much you loot and explore, it's not fun. Hopefully the devs will find the right balance.

The game forces literally everything.  It's called game design.  The only time your experience is not forced in a game is in very specific aspects of specific games.  "Emergent gameplay" not planned for or expected by the devs.  Game design determines what you can build, how fast you can build it, how fast you can get resources, what kind of base you can build, etc.  It's all dictated by game design and it's all "forced".  It has nothing to do with forcing or not forcing, that's a total red herring.  You just don't like being weak and want to skip that phase of the game.  And that's ok.  That's valid feedback.  I just wish you didn't try to present it as something else because talking about forced vs not forced is a waste of time. 

Especially in a game so easy to mod and so easy to spawn in things if you want to skip that weakness curve.  You have all the tools at your disposal, literally, to start with iron tools and t2 weapons on day 3 if you want.  And if you're getting iron tools that early via RNG then it's not much of a celebration so you're not even cheating yourself of any real satisfaction.  The level of satisfaction from an achievement is directly tied to how hard it is to achieve.  You've presented it as preventing you from being annoyed rather than being satisfied at the discovery and progression.  So just spawn it in when you feel it's appropriate.

If you can loot and explore and quickly stop being weak then that weakness is irrelevant and doesn't mean anything.  Things that are easily achieved are less satisfying for most people.  Now is the current implementation the best balance for the most people?  Maybe, maybe not.  But if you can just solve weakness via scavenging then we're right back to where builders and crafting are utterly farked over because scavengers want to run through 2/3rds of the progression curve by day 7 lol.

Every change is a balance of helping some play styles and hindering others.  Fortunately as mentioned the game is extremely flexible, easy to mod, and easy to work around in such issues using a few basic console commands or the cheat menu.

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5 minutes ago, beHypE said:

I think most people finding the weapon/tool loot repetitive need to change their expectations. There's tons of good loot to be found, like meganoth said. Maybe looting gun safes & shotgun's messiah isn't the best plan early game, but there's tons of value looting other POIs in the search of books, mods, schematics and recipes. 

 

Side note, we found a treasure map and the treasure chest was locked, is this intended ? 7000HP of metal with stone axes was painful, especially after having spent all the time digging it up already (that being said, the 6000 dukes inside felt good 🤑)

i would love to Play Random gen! so many more cool areas! but for Some reason my maps load 90% done!

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1 hour ago, Xtrakicking said:

Body or it didn't happen 😛

Body was there, it became a zombie and tried to eat you :P.

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2 hours ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

Edit - I see faatal has already semi-addressed this. Here are my 2 cents. I think hovering (one of the hardest parts of flying a RL helicopter) should not require any input from the player. It would be cool, however, if moving forward caused the nose of the helicopter to pitch down and required "up" input to maintain elevation and stopping required flaring back. However, I'm not sure what is the best way to handle strafing. Canceling sideways inertia could be a real pain in a game that's not built or intended to be a physics simulator.

There are multiple degrees of accuracy in which games model helicopter controls.

Modeling both cyclic and collective pitch as well as engine RPM is unreasonable with common game input devices. Some old sims did that but those were hardcore.

 

Combining collective + RPM is the next step down and probably what you describe.

The downside is that it makes it quite hard to maintain altitude both while hovering and moving.

You'd need a HUD instrument for that at the minimum or a pretty intelligent system for interpreting that combined input.

 

The most gamified version is... basically god mode movement.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, madmole said:

I never once questioned the best rpgs of all time when looting. I diablo I got what I got. Same in Skyrim, Fallout, etc. I opened up a loot container and got something a little better and I was happy about it. You just aren't used to it. Once we get pipe guns and a bit more supplies to craft your own things it might feel less repetitive which I think is the larger problem.


We will have game staged increases in the harder biomes you can go there to get non primitive loot early game but it will be a lot harder.

Hi Madmole, I am with you on the getting use to it route.  However, I think it would help if something like the following is done at some point to help people with this transition?  I think it will go alooooong way.  :)

 

  • Remove the word "Sealed" from all shipping crates
    • Sealed Shipping Crate >  Shipping Crate
    • Shotgun Messiah Sealed Shipping Crate > Shotgun Messiah Shipping Crate
  • Make Shipping Crates look more cobbled together (see picture below as an example) and not PRE-Apocalypse...

 

I am hoping something like this wouldnt take a lot of time dev time since its just a block label change and maybe a quick edit to existing texture...  I am not an environmental artist though so not sure how fast or long that would take...

 

 

A19.0_2020-07-14_09-58-25.jpg

A19.0_2020-07-14_09-59-57.jpg

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)
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10 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

The game forces literally everything.  It's called game design.  The only time your experience is not forced in a game is in very specific aspects of specific games.  "Emergent gameplay" not planned for or expected by the devs.  Game design determines what you can build, how fast you can build it, how fast you can get resources, what kind of base you can build, etc.  It's all dictated by game design and it's all "forced".  It has nothing to do with forcing or not forcing, that's a total red herring.  You just don't like being weak and want to skip that phase of the game.  And that's ok.  That's valid feedback.  I just wish you didn't try to present it as something else because talking about forced vs not forced is a waste of time. 

Especially in a game so easy to mod and so easy to spawn in things if you want to skip that weakness curve.  You have all the tools at your disposal, literally, to start with iron tools and t2 weapons on day 3 if you want.  And if you're getting iron tools that early via RNG then it's not much of a celebration so you're not even cheating yourself of any real satisfaction.  The level of satisfaction from an achievement is directly tied to how hard it is to achieve.  You've presented it as preventing you from being annoyed rather than being satisfied at the discovery and progression.  So just spawn it in when you feel it's appropriate.

If you can loot and explore and quickly stop being weak then that weakness is irrelevant and doesn't mean anything.  Things that are easily achieved are less satisfying for most people.  Now is the current implementation the best balance for the most people?  Maybe, maybe not.  But if you can just solve weakness via scavenging then we're right back to where builders and crafting are utterly farked over because scavengers want to run through 2/3rds of the progression curve by day 7 lol.

Every change is a balance of helping some play styles and hindering others.  Fortunately as mentioned the game is extremely flexible, easy to mod, and easy to work around in such issues using a few basic console commands or the cheat menu.

You know what they say, "If you try to please everybody, you end up please no-one."

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Xtrakicking said:

Nah, I don't care if there's a stone axe in the loot stashes. I do care when there's three in each, and not much else though.

same here, I mean at least add like mechanical parts or duct tape in working stiff boxes so we can make a wrench when we have salvage level 1 in stone age.

Edited by wolfbain5 (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, v3tro said:

 

Would you be so kind to tell me why stone age is boring to loot for you?

 

I like stone age loot progression and what it is.. I get in loot everything I would get if my game stage would be 100+.. you still get sewing kits, duct tapes, anvils, all kind of raw mats etc, the only difference there is is tools/weapons. But how is getting stone variations any different than getting iron/steel? If I`m mid game and every box I open there is Iron shovel/pickaxe/hunting rifle it`s the exact same boring @%$*#! all over again, no? What`s different? Or are you saying that that is the problem and you should be getting Q2 stone axe in T5 quest loot boxes?

 

There is still plenty of variations for primitive age - stone axe, shovel, clubs, spears, bone knives, sledge, blunderbuss and hopefully more to come in A20 with new primitive weapons for each class. Same as there is in any other gs - pickaxe/shovel/sniper/m60/machete/magnum etc. To me, personally, that feels like natural progression.

 

Why it is boring? Because you know you will not get upgrades, and unlike later loot you cannot use stone axes and shovels in other way like selling them or getting some scrap out of them. You get same loot from T1 and T5. Later on when you start getting to iron tools you wont use them until you get at least quality 3-4, because that epic stone shovel has just better stats. The progression in current state is not good. But thats ok, because its work in progress. I believe in Madmole an rest of his team to do good on his players, even if its not down to my exact expectations and desires.

Edited by Onarr (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Onarr said:

Why it is boring? Because you know you will not get upgrades, and unlike later loot you cannot use stone axes and shovels in other way like selling them or getting some scrap out of them. You get same loot from T1 and T5. Later on when you start getting to iron tools you wont use them until you get at least quality 3-4, because that epic stone shovel has just better stats. The progression in current state is not good. 

You do get upgrades.  You get recipes, schematics, books, resources, and rare materials and higher level stone tools than you can make unless you specifically skilled into miner69er.  Looting stone tools is actually extremely beneficial for people not skilling into miner69er.  I get it that most people prioritize that asap, but this isn't the same game as it used to be and ever since all the cobblestone and cement was added to POIs you haven't needed to skill into those to start, so multiple alphas now.

I'm at Day 35 currently.  I have no miner69er or motherload.  90% of my stone came from POI stone pallets and scrapping things.  90% of my cobblestones and cement came from POI pallets or the trader.  90% of my metals came from scavenging/scrapping.  90% of my clay came from buried treasure quests.  I've never had to dedicated farm for any resources.  I've just scavenged and used the trader.

My bone knife and blunderbuss handled everything quite well including the early 2 horde nights and then I started finding all sorts of weapon upgrades as my gamestage rose.  At day 35 I have t5 iron tools, a t4 wrench, I crafted a T5 pistol/hunting knife, and I'm making steel now.  I'm 100% agility skill points atm.  I have all crafting stations and my base is almost fully reinforced concrete with electric traps.  What's your excuse?

I feel like people are stuck in past alphas.  You don't need to mine anymore.  You don't need anything more than stone to fully cement out your base easily.  You'll be able to craft the weapons you use if you invest in that weapon tree.  You WILL find a workbench or recipe for one eventually.  The Forge is the only real stumbling block that is often harder to find for some reason.  People seem to have a real issue with adjusting to the current state of the game, one that existed honestly before A19 dropped.  Folks are still stuck in that A14 miner/find my gear mentality but the game is far more flexible than that now.

Edited by Ralathar44 (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

You do get upgrades.  You get recipes and materials and higher level stone tools than you can make unless you specifically skilled into miner69er.  Looting stone tools is actually extremely beneficial for people not skilling into miner69er.  I get it that most people prioritize that asap, but this isn't the same game as it used to be and ever since all the cobblestone and cement was added to POIs you haven't needed to skill into those to start, so multiple alphas now.

I'm at Day 35 currently.  I have no miner69er or motherload.  90% of my stone came from POI stone pallets and scrapping things.  90% of my cobblestones and cement came from POI pallets or the trader.  90% of my metals came from scavenging/scrapping.  90% of my clay came from buried treasure quests.  I've never had to dedicated farm for any resources.  I've just scavenged and used the trader.

My bone knife and blunderbuss handled everything quite well including the early 2 horde nights and then I started finding all sorts of weapon upgrades as my gamestage rose.  At day 35 I have t5 iron tools, a t4 wrench, I crafted a T5 pistol/hunting knife, and I'm making steel now.  I'm 100% agility skill points atm.

I feel like people are stuck in past alphas.  You don't need to mine anymore.  You don't need anything more than stone to fully cement out your base easily.  You'll be able to craft the weapons you use if you invest in that weapon tree.  You WILL find a workbench or recipe for one eventually.  The Forge is the only real stumbling block that is often harder to find for some reason.  People seem to have a real issue with adjusting to the current state of the game, one that existed honestly before A19 dropped.  Folks are still stuck in that A14 miner/find my gear mentality but the game is far more flexible than that now.

As long as you're not saying that most of us miners are "stuck in the past" for still wanting to swing a pickaxe at some stone while admitting that it isn't needed anymore (or at least some of us do), we're cool. :) But agreed, it is no longer a requirement for base building and repairs.

Edited by MechanicalLens (see edit history)
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