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Alpha 19 Dev Diary


madmole

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30 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

when A19 was coming out i though they gave the double barrel a new model. the one they showed in the gun store shelf. to say i was disappointed was a understatement. 

 

<snip>

 

Cmon, many things are remodeled, the best is yet to come. Wish we had an upgraded version of this video to see how much of a progress this game went through. 

 

The video: 

 

Thanks @skippy0330 ! 

Edited by beerfly (see edit history)
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5 hours ago, DaVegaNL said:

Only problem is; who defines what is 'general use'. Your playstyle? My playstyle?

Exactly. Blake's argument proves to much. Under his argument all perks should go under the general category because some players will be   "forced to expend [points] in an attribute [they] don't wan't to expend."  This would revert the class system that TFP built back into the perk system that existed previously. As Gazz said, this is best left for a mod because it fundamentally alters TFP's vision for the game.     

Edited by Kosmic Kerman (see edit history)
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Still, having attributes providing benefits beyond boosting the weapons governed by the tree would be a welcome addition. +1% movement speed for every agility point, +1% dmg reduction for every fortitude point, +1% melee/bow damage for every point in strength, +1% more gun damage for each point in perception, +1% crafting speed for each point in intelligence or something like that. 

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8 minutes ago, beHypE said:

Still, having attributes providing benefits beyond boosting the weapons governed by the tree would be a welcome addition. +1% movement speed for every agility point, +1% dmg reduction for every fortitude point, +1% melee/bow damage for every point in strength, +1% more gun damage for each point in perception, +1% crafting speed for each point in intelligence or something like that. 

Finally someone who agrees with me on this

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Guys, I think that if you really want to give feedback to balance the current system you should at least NOT propose something that basically will re-write what TFP have chosen as the current attribute/perks mechanic.

 

I, for one, would love to see some additional "effect" that each attribute can give you when you level it up, but the proposed +1% is abysmal and would have no real effect until you reach at least level 5 in each attribute. But the concept is good IMO.

 

Also, to reply to those who say that strength (as an example) should affect many different things, I say that each attribute perk tree is an approximation of what the effect of that attribute could be. When you see (e.g.) an archer shooting an arrow, strength is NOT the first thing that comes to your mind, is it? Same goes for someone doing pole vault at the olympic games... do they need strength to jump that high? YES! But is it the main attribute involved in pole vault? NO!

 

That's the same for the perk system: you can find a specific perk in the most representative attribute tree; it's AN APPROXIMATION OF REALITY!

 

Having said all that you can understand why I think it makes much more sense to couple perks with attributes than leave them on their own branch.

While the current system is not perfect it IS however coherent in itself and I'm sure that most of the problems will be solved with just a little more balancing.

I'd also like to point out that given time ANYTHING is possible to achieve since you can earn all the skillpoints you need the more you progress in the game.

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Wasn't arguiing about removing the damage boost given by the attributes. My proposition was an addition, not a rework. So that if you happen to put 5 points into whatever secondary tree you want, it isn't 5 points that ONLY unlock whatever perk you're after. +1% isn't much but it adds up, and is better than the current nothing. 

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10 hours ago, faatal said:

We do care about it. I never want to see stuff added to the game that ends up being useless, because then it was waste of time and we only have so much of that. There was not enough time before experimental to make the sledge better, but this week I finally had the chance to get the ragdoll effect working, add knock backs and fix bugs I saw (range, targeting and attack delay). It now works well and could be an insane monster if we wanted by changing speed, knock backs/ragdolls and damage.

If more traps were ever needed, a powered (requires electricity) version could be added as an additional trap for base defences... :)

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honestly i don't know how they could "fix" the perks

 

 

 

 

they ether gut the whole system and remake it from scratch but that will cost alot of money and may make it even worst

 

Make it like the old alphas, but that had its own problems

 

i don't know what they could do!   

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1 hour ago, beHypE said:

Still, having attributes providing benefits beyond boosting the weapons governed by the tree would be a welcome addition. +1% movement speed for every agility point, +1% dmg reduction for every fortitude point, +1% melee/bow damage for every point in strength, +1% more gun damage for each point in perception, +1% crafting speed for each point in intelligence or something like that. 

If game "pushes" you towards investing in other trees let me  benefit from that skill. If I invest in strength I am stronger therefore is only logical I will hit you harder with whatever weapon I hold in my hands.


And also I would like to see TFP breaks the monotonous +5, +10+15+... system.

You have different kind of weapons, therefore different properties of each weapons - so how about adding special bonuses/effects to them like you have with sledge hammers. Spears were the backbone of every army in medieval times - but in this game it only gets 5,10,15%... Spears are so weak, they should do like piercing armor damage, poking heads and bodies of more than 1 zombie if they are aligned, Stun batons could have "chain lightning effect" at higher stages or better versions of them.  Blade weapons could have special effects as well.

Current strength tree is cookie cutter build of certain devs "cough cough", rest of the trees are neglected compared to it. Don't get me wrong I played with all of them, but most of the other attributes are very weak or hardly obtainable at the beginning ( currently playing Intellect build, day 7, lvl 13 and still haven't found a stun baton, I know the recipe to make it - lacking STUN BATON PARTS, not to mention sledge or junk turret, have over 10 k dukes, 3 traders found but I am still using stone sledge hammer and bow - traders aren't selling any parts or batons, better barter at 3 as well ). That said I WANT to play intellect guy, but my options are very limited. When playing STR I feel OP already at this time :)Yes it is experimental and this issues can be easily fixed with couple of tweaks in xml and in A20 there will be stone age baton version.
But attributes trees currently would be balanced only if you just erase STR altogether.


Make those attribute skills intertwine with other trees, so it doesn't feel like points spent are wasted since you don't use weapons in that certain tree. The current dull, linear, crude boring system is the weakest link at current stage of the game. I know devs said they thought it through, but system is still very lacking. Implement it and replayability will rise ten fold.

Don't take it the wrong way, game overall is great, but in my opinion current system is holding this game back from being one of a true greats of all times.
 

Edited by Bhaaltazar (see edit history)
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17 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Guys, I think that if you really want to give feedback to balance the current system you should at least NOT propose something that basically will re-write what TFP have chosen as the current attribute/perks mechanic.

 

I, for one, would love to see some additional "effect" that each attribute can give you when you level it up, but the proposed +1% is abysmal and would have no real effect until you reach at least level 5 in each attribute. But the concept is good IMO.

 

Also, to reply to those who say that strength (as an example) should affect many different things, I say that each attribute perk tree is an approximation of what the effect of that attribute could be. When you see (e.g.) an archer shooting an arrow, strength is NOT the first thing that comes to your mind, is it? Same goes for someone doing pole vault at the olympic games... do they need strength to jump that high? YES! But is it the main attribute involved in pole vault? NO!

 

That's the same for the perk system: you can find a specific perk in the most representative attribute tree; it's AN APPROXIMATION OF REALITY!

 

Having said all that you can understand why I think it makes much more sense to couple perks with attributes than leave them on their own branch.

While the current system is not perfect it IS however coherent in itself and I'm sure that most of the problems will be solved with just a little more balancing.

I'd also like to point out that given time ANYTHING is possible to achieve since you can earn all the skillpoints you need the more you progress in the game.

1) The effect would be foremost a psy@%$*#!gical bandaid for when you don't want to think about "entrance fees" and "gates".

 

2) 1% more speed per point in agility means the AGI player is 10% faster than the typical player. That is a huge bonus. 10% more damage for the strength player, everywhere all the time!!!! Probably the perks have to be scaled down a bit to balance that out.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Bhaaltazar said:

If game "pushes" you towards investing in other trees let me  benefit from that skill. If I invest in strength I am stronger therefore is only logical I will hit you harder with whatever weapon I hold in my hands.

What should be achieved here imo is a system that gives the player a small bonus for investing into an attribute, but in no way should it force or even encourage players to go into that attribute for that benefit alone. Rather than having a system where every rank into Strength gives the player +5% melee damage per rank or every rank into Fortitude gives the player +10 health every time, what should be aimed for are small passive bonuses that benefit anybody who goes into that attribute. (Ex. +1% looting speed per Perception rank or +1% crafting speed per rank of Intellect, on top of the current bonuses.) Currently if you invest into an attribute that you are not using the weapons for, unlocking perks inside that tree aside, those points into the attribute do nothing for you. However, the extra +1% crafting speed bonus per rank of Intellect for example would make the player go back and have them say, "Well, it's not game changing, but at least isn't not nothing either."

Edited by MechanicalLens (see edit history)
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9 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

honestly i don't know how they could "fix" the perks

 

 

 

 

they ether gut the whole system and remake it from scratch but that will cost alot of money and may make it even worst

 

Make it like the old alphas, but that had its own problems

 

i don't know what they could do!   

I know. Keep the current system and balance it further. I like the current state better than any other I ever played.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, meganoth said:

1) The effect would be foremost a psy@%$*#!gical bandaid for when you don't want to think about "entrance fees" and "gates".

 

2) 1% more speed per point in agility means the AGI player is 10% faster than the typical player. That is a huge bonus. 10% more damage for the strength player, everywhere all the time!!!! Probably the perks have to be scaled down a bit to balance that out.

 

 

i would say .5% per level for balance reasons. a total of 5% bonus isnt a great amount as to not outbalance things.

 

if they did it.

perc .5% accuracy inc

str all melee damage

agil run speed or attack speed.

fort crit resist

int crafting speed.

 

this would give those players feeling stats they dont use in their combat styles are worthless, a little cookie.

Edited by wolfbain5 (see edit history)
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3 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

What should be achieved here imo is a system that gives the player a small bonus for investing into an attribute, but in no way should it force or even encourage players to go into that attribute for that benefit alone. Rather than having a system where every rank into Strength gives the player +5% melee damage per rank or every rank into Fortitude gives the player +10 health every time, what should be aimed for are small passive bonuses that benefit anybody who goes into that attribute. (Ex. +1% looting speed per Perception rank or +1% crafting speed per rank of Intellect, on top of the current bonuses.) Currently if you invest into an attribute that you are not using the weapons for, unlocking perks inside that tree aside, those points into the attribute do nothing for you. However, the extra +1% crafting speed bonus per rank of Intellect for example would make the player go back and have them say, "Well, it's not game changing, but at least isn't not nothing either."

I agree with that, I would like to see a system where I would invest in other tree ( basic PER,AGI, FOR... ) just for the sake of basic bonuses I get from that. So as you said maybe I want extra HP, or I would like to get extra AGI for faster speed or stamina.
I believe the solution would be that you loose some of the perks giving you these benefits, and just add them the under basic attributes skills. Therefore for example since I already invested so many points into AGI ( extra speed or dodge ) I will also invest in few of the points into lets say parkour or sneaking. 

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3 minutes ago, Bhaaltazar said:

I agree with that, I would like to see a system where I would invest in other tree ( basic PER,AGI, FOR... ) just for the sake of basic bonuses I get from that. So as you said maybe I want extra HP, or I would like to get extra AGI for faster speed or stamina.
I believe the solution would be that you loose some of the perks giving you these benefits, and just add them the under basic attributes skills. Therefore for example since I already invested so many points into AGI ( extra speed or dodge ) I will also invest in few of the points into lets say parkour or sneaking. 

No, that was not what I was proposing at all; you're twisting my words here. Read again. "What should be achieved here imo is a system that gives the player a small bonus for investing into an attribute, but in no way should it force or even encourage players to go into that attribute for that benefit alone." Just saying.

(Just my opinion.)

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26 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

honestly i don't know how they could "fix" the perks

 

 

 

 

they ether gut the whole system and remake it from scratch but that will cost alot of money and may make it even worst

 

Make it like the old alphas, but that had its own problems

 

i don't know what they could do!   

Keep it the way it is, tweak it, and improve the classes TFP finds lacking. There will always be people who don't like whatever system ends up in gold. The goal is not to please everyone but to deliver the best system they can that fits their vision. 

Edited by Kosmic Kerman (see edit history)
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5 minutes ago, wolfbain5 said:

i would say .5% per level for balance reasons. a total of 5% bonus isnt a great amount as to not outbalance things.

 

if they did it.

perc .5% accuracy inc

str all melee damage

agil run speed or attack speed.

fort crit resist

int crafting speed.

 

this would give those players feeling stats they dont use in their combat styles are worthless, a little cookie.

Strength - carry cap and damage
Agility - dodge and speed
Fortitude - extra health and effects resistances
Perception - accuracy and "hidden loot" - as in you find few extra treats 
Intelligence - faster crafting + extra crafting results ( being smart you know how to be more efficient using resources - like when crafting  you have a chance to get some extra quantity or quality  )

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4 minutes ago, Bhaaltazar said:

Strength - carry cap and damage
Agility - dodge and speed
Fortitude - extra health and effects resistances
Perception - accuracy and "hidden loot" - as in you find few extra treats 
Intelligence - faster crafting + extra crafting results ( being smart you know how to be more efficient using resources - like when crafting  you have a chance to get some extra quantity or quality  )

The problem there is we would end up with a system where players would feel forced, or at least highly encouraged, to go under an attribute just for the passive benefit that that attribute provides alone. If every rank into Perception increased your chance of headshot decapitations by 10% per rank, then why wouldn't you go under Perception solely for that benefit? It would create a very rigid and restricting system. To each their own though, but I think that these bonuses should be small enough that players don't think of going under those trees just for the attribute bonus alone, but not insignificant enough that they can't look back and said, "that was worth it".

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14 minutes ago, Bhaaltazar said:

Strength - carry cap and damage
Agility - dodge and speed
Fortitude - extra health and effects resistances
Perception - accuracy and "hidden loot" - as in you find few extra treats 
Intelligence - faster crafting + extra crafting results ( being smart you know how to be more efficient using resources - like when crafting  you have a chance to get some extra quantity or quality  )

carry capacity? that is the pack mule perk. unless uou mean adding a percentage to stack size. but that would have to adjust to every player per stack, lots of background calculations every time a different player with a different str interacted. headache.

hidden loot is lucky looter. its a voxel game so we arent gonna get the ohh, this block transformed to loot type of effects. just an addition to a lootable object which is covered.

dodge is an interesting idea. not sure how that is coded.

bonus crafting? like .1% chance to get a double craft of an item? <edit> think this got covered by lowering mats costs through perks.

Edited by wolfbain5 (see edit history)
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22 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I know. Keep the current system and balance it further. I like the current state better than any other I ever played.

 

 

that too!

 

but some perks like "Infiltrator" and "Lock picking" could be Mixed together, i mean infiltrating and lockpicking kinda go hand and hand. (at least to me)

and it will be kinda hard to please everyone!

 

Some people want to be good at everything, some do not, its a hard balance to keep people pleased  

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4 minutes ago, wolfbain5 said:

carry capacity? that is the pack mule perk. unless uou mean adding a percentage to stack size. but that would have to adjust to every player per stack, lots of background calculations every time a different player with a different str interacted. headache.

hidden loot is lucky looter. its a voxel game so we arent gonna get the ohh, this block transformed to loot type of effects. just an addition to a lootable object which is covered.

dodge is an interesting idea. not sure how that is coded.

bonus crafting? like .1% chance to get a double craft of an item?

Not pointing fingers here, but what we're all having here is a conflict of ideas. Idea A proposes a system that encourages players to go under attributes solely for that benefit (perks aside), while the other side proposes a much humbler approach. Again, to each their own, but I highly suspect that if TFP picked a side here, they would go for the latter. They probably wouldn't want another A17 scenario where, for example, every player went into Fortitude just to boost their max health.

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1 minute ago, MechanicalLens said:

The problem there is we would end up with a system where players would feel forced, or at least highly encouraged, to go under an attribute just for the passive benefit that that attribute provides alone. If every rank into Perception increased your chance of headshot decapitations by 10% per rank, then why wouldn't you go under Perception solely for that benefit? It would create a very rigid and restricting system. To each their own though, but I think that these bonuses should be small enough that players don't think of going under those trees just for the attribute bonus alone, but not insignificant enough that they can't look back and said, "that was worth it".

Well I just made an examples which can be tuned down after testing. I liked the leveling systems where game let me switch between skill trees or attributes for certain small benefits - without committing to it fully. maybe I just want little more accuracy for my lets say shot gun, so I would like to train some more "aiming" under PER - but not at such high jumps of 10% as you said. I would just like to see when I spread my points around in different trees I get some sort of benefit, but at the same time not at OP level, but just enough that spending point in a different tree makes some difference.

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6 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

Not pointing fingers here, but what we're all having here is a conflict of ideas. Idea A proposes a system that encourages players to go under attributes solely for that benefit (perks aside), while the other side proposes a much humbler approach. Again, to each their own, but I highly suspect that if TFP picked a side here, they would go for the latter. They probably wouldn't want another A17 scenario where, for example, every player went into Fortitude just to boost their max health.

nah, he had good ideas, just point at the few that were covered in other  ways. I agree tho that basic stats should have a small bonus to gameplay simply for being high in any particular stat. stats should have an overall governing effect of some sort. At least that is how I believe all gamers have been raised to expect through the last 50 years of gaming. <not just comps or consoles, but tabletop as well>

 

 

side note, has anyone field tested the stun baton with the aoe effect with the relevant perks maxed?

Edited by wolfbain5 (see edit history)
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2 minutes ago, wolfbain5 said:

nah, he had good ideas, just point at the few that were covered in other  ways. I agree tho that basic stats should have a small bonus to gameplay simply for being high in any particular stat. stats should have an overall governing effect of some sort.

I will admit that, yes. I'll be a bit more open and say that everything is free game, but my opinion stands in that I will strongly disagree with any kind of benefit that forces or even encourages players to go under an attribute solely for that passive bonus, creating a very cookie cutter system. For example, +1% looting bonus per rank of Perception? Humble and serviceable, and serves more as a brief afterthought. +5% accuracy when firing a weapon from the hip / ADS per rank of Perception? Decent but not in any way game-changing. +10% damage with headshots per rank of Perception? A little too extreme, in my eyes.

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