Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[Khalagar]

. . .or those 15 points could just useful lol. There's no reason why increasing your agility means you do more damage with an SMG. They specifically got rid of "level locked" perks where you had to be X level to get a perk, but that's basically all your description of the attribute is. "It provides no value what so ever on it's own, but eventually you can get the thing you want!" doesn't really stand solid on it's own when you could just as easily get some moderate benefits from the attribute that make sense.

 

The current attribute system isn't very noob friendly because it is anti- common sense.  "I've got 10 fortitude, I bet I'm super tanky right?!" Nope, you just do more headshot damage with an M60 for some reason. "I've got 10 strength, I bet I can carry a ton of stuff!!!" nope, you just do more damage with a shotgun randomly

[DaVegaNL]

1 hour ago, Blake_ said:

That might be ok, but requires time to redesign and redevelop. All I'm asking is for a bit of sense and freedom by putting general use perks into one separate page. Hardly a stone in development time.  I can only see benefits to the overall gameplay experience : more space for more perks in the future, absolutely no obligation to invest in an attribute even in the long term and a straightforward and easy to manage balance if someday a crazy perk idea comes up and TFP want to add it in without any balance problems.

Only problem is; who defines what is 'general use'. Your playstyle? My playstyle?

[Gazz]

It really comes down to players not wanting to make choices.

They want the path to their preferred combination of perks all highlighted and linear with zero points "wasted" on something they consider non-essential.

 

There are 2 problems with that.

1. The gameplay of this game's skill system is based on making choices.

2. It's not going to change.

 

 

It's not even a problem of them being "locked out" of certain perks. You can get over 300 skill points. Their problem is that they want easy access to a very specific set of perks that makes their particular play style easier.

Putting together a new attribute for the purpose of maximum OP with least skill points invested is good material for a mod, not the vanilla game.

[Jost Amman]

42 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

 

You still just Invest in agility? You can freely invest in the attribute, and the attribute should be valuable on it's own, so if you think 1% movespeed or something is worth a perk point, you can stick a point in Agility and aren't obligated to go for the perks in the tree itself. Same for Int

 

That's basically the point. Right now, perks are gated behind attributes, so you have to put 15  points in Agility to jump high, but if you don't use pistols or bows, those 15 points are completely useless. If you wanted 10% more movespeed but nothing else from agility, you could still just invest your 15 points in agility and get what you wanted, instead of having to invest 15 points in something you will get zero value out of, and THEN invest another 5 points in the thing you actually want that benefits you

 

 

In my mind, every single perk in the game should have value on it's own. Not necessarily for every build, so there's nothing with a perk that focuses on bow damage specifically or something. But gating perks that are good for many builds behind attributes that are ONLY good for ONE build is the issue. The goal should be for the player to get value out of every  perk point they *have* to spend. Like if I want miner 69 but use only snipers, I'm at least getting value out of my points in Strength because they increase my base block damage or increase my carry load or something

See, that's the problem there... your approach makes no sense in real life.

 

When you're strong you'll inherently get benefits from being strong if you do several activities, but if you're (e.g.) a Bodybuilder it doesn't mean you'll go into a mine and start mining, though if you do DO, you'll be at an advantage over a wimpy nerd in the same situation.

 

That's why it makes sense to connect perks to attributes, I don't understand how you can't see it. 🤨

[beHypE]

I think he makes a decent enough point to be fair. Attributes powering up specific weapons while also unlocking access to the speciality of those same weapons is not only redundant, but also like he stated a waste if you want to level up a specific perk in a tree that governs weapons you don't want to use.

 

I don't think the game would be worse if the attributes gave something that boosted every character regardless of his weapon of choice. He's not trying to argue about having to spend X amount of points as a precondition of unlocking something, he's merely saying that it would be nice if those X points didn't feel like a complete waste in isolation. 

[Drisky]

I think having to make choices on perks is fine As long as you can unlock everything by means of grinding out levels or finding skill books as some of us (me) dont have friends lol.

[FileMachete]

I haven't seen anyone saying that being stronger shouldn't result in being better at things that obviously take strength.

 

Yet the Bow, which would require the most strength of any in-game ranged weapon gains nothing from upping strength.

 

Breaking things out of these clumsy pseudo 'archetype' templates would allow a true, pure Strength Attribute to benefit Bows, and Clubs, etc.

Would also allow for Crossbows to not benefit as much from Str, so a "stealth" player who wasn't also miner, or club user, could decide to go with crossbows over bows.

 

Edit: extrapolate from there. No suprise a more open system would support more choices.

[NukemDed]

thats because very little of any of this makes any sense at all.

i defy you to disagree. 

lol

[toores]

It's not a game breaking thing but it woul'd be nice if "parkour" perk still allowed me to jump 1m or 2m depending on how long I hold down space.

 

The thing is, so many "paths of least resistance" take you outside of POIs and many times you have to jumt to get back inside. Just now, I fell down because there was a half block above the ledge and it bounced me away from the ledge.

I climbed back up but it was impossible to jump on the ledge (this is a bit game breaking) because the block above me always sent me flying.

 

Another way to solve this is to make head collisions not push you sideways.

[Blake_]

2 hours ago, Gazz said:

It really comes down to players not wanting to make choices.

They want the path to their preferred combination of perks all highlighted and linear with zero points "wasted" on something they consider non-essential.

 

There are 2 problems with that.

1. The gameplay of this game's skill system is based on making choices.

2. It's not going to change.

 

 

It's not even a problem of them being "locked out" of certain perks. You can get over 300 skill points. Their problem is that they want easy access to a very specific set of perks that makes their particular play style easier.

Putting together a new attribute for the purpose of maximum OP with least skill points invested is good material for a mod, not the vanilla game.

Well, then increase the points needed for them. The problem of the "forcing me to chose miner/motherload/sexrex every single time I play with every single attribute that  is not strenght" when I want to mine is still there. 

 

Breaking news, a player cannot use a steel pickaxe or even an iron one with basic effectivity if they choose not to invest in strenght. Not even buffed. plus they fight and use tools waay worse overall.

 

Far from "forcing the perk", this current system is worse still, it is "forcing an attribute" on me and therefore a gameplay style and a roleplaying experience that I might have decided not to do.

 

Bad. Less bad that a17's intellect, but still bad. 

 

Actually, those 3 perks are the only ones off the top of my head that I can think of that need real separation.

 

They are too pivotal to ever be balanced propely unless they are under "general survival perks " with or without further gating or  cost. The problem isn't cost here. 

 

[rubens9311]

8 hours ago, Kiernan531 said:

I really love this game, just bought it a short time ago but already pumped over 100 hours into it.  While it is great that you are still updating the game to try and fix problems and add content, it really disincentivizes me to play if every time you update it I can no longer play my old saves.  I spent so much time leveling up my character and building up my base defenses and now to play with the new version I have to start the game all over... sure I can opt out of the beta and play an older version, but that is a lot of time downloading and reinstalling versions when I want to change characters, such as when I go from my single player game to my multiplayer game.  And then when another version comes out I would have to start over again... isn't there a way to make it so games could be imported from one version to another?  Skill points could be returned so that players could redistribute them in the new skill trees, removed items could be taken out but all other items left alone, etc.  I've played other early access games that go through several versions but my early saves are still playable in the new builds.

 

 

With time you get used to it.
 I hate the game for this very reason. Hours and hours working for nothing. But when you buy it, the game says "early access" and against that it can't do or say anything. Ha Just forget and start again.
 It will heal your wounds. I say this from experience
 (Or you can also give yourself everything as the "good mod" but it will never be the same and you will live in nostalgia)

Just now, rubens9311 said:

 

 

With time you get used to it.
 I hate the game for this very reason. Hours and hours working for nothing. But when you buy it, the game says "early access" and against that it can't do or say anything. Ha Just forget and start again.
 It will heal your wounds. I say this from experience
 (Or you can also give yourself everything as the "good mod" but it will never be the same and you will live in nostalgia)

 

Please I need you to tell me how to answer without that white background. I hate it.

[Adam the Waster]

when you sawed off a double barrel

 

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Blake_ said:

That is an obvious thing to say. But I am still forced to expend in an attribute I don't wan't to expend. Who are you to force me into getting Strenght, even if it's the most convenient thing in the universe because I also get to use other perks and get a free lollipop out of the bargain?

 

Another perk page has the benefits of:

1. Not forcing me to expend in an attribute.

 

2. More screen space for other perks  for the affected attributes in the future.

 

3. Could be made more straight forward and not even have attribute gates OR be steeper, OR not be steeper OR having a coloured scarf, doesn't matter because the balance problem is solved as nobody forces me to pick strenght.

 

What kind of game that advertises itself as a roleplaying game  compels you in the lines of :

 

"sorry dude, you need to be a baker in order to be an efficient plumber, that's just the way it is. I don't know what nonsense are you spitting dude, a baker attribute is cheap and you can get it in no time and you can even pick a fork faster in the future duude. Good balance dude, you are blind."

 

Like and subscribe dude.

 

 

So you are saying that you would gladly invest 5 points into miner69 to get it to level 3, but rail at putting 2 points in strength and 3 in miner69 to get it to level 3. You realize that this is more about sensibilities and expectations and has nothing to do with logic?

 

I could list a few role playing systems and games where abilities are confined to a class. The thing is, 7D2D has an open class system, but calls it classes "strength" and "perception" instead of "miner" and "sniper". Perks are distributed for better fit not immersion.

 

6 hours ago, IrishGhost said:

What do you mean perfect? If you mean flawless I can't agree at all. If serviceable then sure, but far from perfect. I know this is a bit off-topic but I am curious.

Someone could call a game he plays hundreds of hours in and never has a dull moment perfect. Absolute perfection in anything we do is impossible anyway.

 

2 hours ago, FileMachete said:

I haven't seen anyone saying that being stronger shouldn't result in being better at things that obviously take strength.

 

Yet the Bow, which would require the most strength of any in-game ranged weapon gains nothing from upping strength.

 

Breaking things out of these clumsy pseudo 'archetype' templates would allow a true, pure Strength Attribute to benefit Bows, and Clubs, etc.

Would also allow for Crossbows to not benefit as much from Str, so a "stealth" player who wasn't also miner, or club user, could decide to go with crossbows over bows.

 

Edit: extrapolate from there. No suprise a more open system would support more choices.

Forget about arguing attributes because of their names, they are just passable labels to something that has no fixed name. Even class names like miner or sniper, who I would prefer, are only approximations.

 

[beerfly]

18 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

when you sawed off a double barrel

 

That`s for a massage, aim it very near to a head of a zed, it will feel better for life when triggered, I mean when you turn it on. 

[meganoth]

50 minutes ago, rubens9311 said:

 

 

With time you get used to it.
 I hate the game for this very reason. Hours and hours working for nothing. But when you buy it, the game says "early access" and against that it can't do or say anything. Ha Just forget and start again.
 It will heal your wounds. I say this from experience
 (Or you can also give yourself everything as the "good mod" but it will never be the same and you will live in nostalgia)

 

Please I need you to tell me how to answer without that white background. I hate it.

In the editor select the text and klick on the 4th button from the right, the icon that looks like an eraser. Hovering over it says "Remove format"

[Adam the Waster]

10 minutes ago, beerfly said:

That`s for a massage, aim it very near to a head of a zed, it will feel better for life when triggered, I mean when you turn it on. 

when A19 was coming out i though they gave the double barrel a new model. the one they showed in the gun store shelf. to say i was disappointed was a understatement. 

 

 

[beerfly]

30 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

when A19 was coming out i though they gave the double barrel a new model. the one they showed in the gun store shelf. to say i was disappointed was a understatement. 

 

<snip>

 

Cmon, many things are remodeled, the best is yet to come. Wish we had an upgraded version of this video to see how much of a progress this game went through. 

 

The video: 

 

Thanks @skippy0330 ! 

[Kosmic Kerman]

5 hours ago, DaVegaNL said:

Only problem is; who defines what is 'general use'. Your playstyle? My playstyle?

Exactly. Blake's argument proves to much. Under his argument all perks should go under the general category because some players will be   "forced to expend [points] in an attribute [they] don't wan't to expend."  This would revert the class system that TFP built back into the perk system that existed previously. As Gazz said, this is best left for a mod because it fundamentally alters TFP's vision for the game.     

[beHypE]

Still, having attributes providing benefits beyond boosting the weapons governed by the tree would be a welcome addition. +1% movement speed for every agility point, +1% dmg reduction for every fortitude point, +1% melee/bow damage for every point in strength, +1% more gun damage for each point in perception, +1% crafting speed for each point in intelligence or something like that. 

[MechanicalLens]

8 minutes ago, beHypE said:

Still, having attributes providing benefits beyond boosting the weapons governed by the tree would be a welcome addition. +1% movement speed for every agility point, +1% dmg reduction for every fortitude point, +1% melee/bow damage for every point in strength, +1% more gun damage for each point in perception, +1% crafting speed for each point in intelligence or something like that. 

Finally someone who agrees with me on this

[Jost Amman]

Guys, I think that if you really want to give feedback to balance the current system you should at least NOT propose something that basically will re-write what TFP have chosen as the current attribute/perks mechanic.

 

I, for one, would love to see some additional "effect" that each attribute can give you when you level it up, but the proposed +1% is abysmal and would have no real effect until you reach at least level 5 in each attribute. But the concept is good IMO.

 

Also, to reply to those who say that strength (as an example) should affect many different things, I say that each attribute perk tree is an approximation of what the effect of that attribute could be. When you see (e.g.) an archer shooting an arrow, strength is NOT the first thing that comes to your mind, is it? Same goes for someone doing pole vault at the olympic games... do they need strength to jump that high? YES! But is it the main attribute involved in pole vault? NO!

 

That's the same for the perk system: you can find a specific perk in the most representative attribute tree; it's AN APPROXIMATION OF REALITY!

 

Having said all that you can understand why I think it makes much more sense to couple perks with attributes than leave them on their own branch.

While the current system is not perfect it IS however coherent in itself and I'm sure that most of the problems will be solved with just a little more balancing.

I'd also like to point out that given time ANYTHING is possible to achieve since you can earn all the skillpoints you need the more you progress in the game.

[beHypE]

Wasn't arguiing about removing the damage boost given by the attributes. My proposition was an addition, not a rework. So that if you happen to put 5 points into whatever secondary tree you want, it isn't 5 points that ONLY unlock whatever perk you're after. +1% isn't much but it adds up, and is better than the current nothing. 

[Laz Man]

10 hours ago, faatal said:

We do care about it. I never want to see stuff added to the game that ends up being useless, because then it was waste of time and we only have so much of that. There was not enough time before experimental to make the sledge better, but this week I finally had the chance to get the ragdoll effect working, add knock backs and fix bugs I saw (range, targeting and attack delay). It now works well and could be an insane monster if we wanted by changing speed, knock backs/ragdolls and damage.

If more traps were ever needed, a powered (requires electricity) version could be added as an additional trap for base defences... 

[Adam the Waster]

honestly i don't know how they could "fix" the perks

 

 

 

 

they ether gut the whole system and remake it from scratch but that will cost alot of money and may make it even worst

 

Make it like the old alphas, but that had its own problems

 

i don't know what they could do!   

[Bhaaltazar]

1 hour ago, beHypE said:

Still, having attributes providing benefits beyond boosting the weapons governed by the tree would be a welcome addition. +1% movement speed for every agility point, +1% dmg reduction for every fortitude point, +1% melee/bow damage for every point in strength, +1% more gun damage for each point in perception, +1% crafting speed for each point in intelligence or something like that. 

If game "pushes" you towards investing in other trees let me  benefit from that skill. If I invest in strength I am stronger therefore is only logical I will hit you harder with whatever weapon I hold in my hands.

And also I would like to see TFP breaks the monotonous +5, +10+15+... system.

You have different kind of weapons, therefore different properties of each weapons - so how about adding special bonuses/effects to them like you have with sledge hammers. Spears were the backbone of every army in medieval times - but in this game it only gets 5,10,15%... Spears are so weak, they should do like piercing armor damage, poking heads and bodies of more than 1 zombie if they are aligned, Stun batons could have "chain lightning effect" at higher stages or better versions of them.  Blade weapons could have special effects as well.

Current strength tree is cookie cutter build of certain devs "cough cough", rest of the trees are neglected compared to it. Don't get me wrong I played with all of them, but most of the other attributes are very weak or hardly obtainable at the beginning ( currently playing Intellect build, day 7, lvl 13 and still haven't found a stun baton, I know the recipe to make it - lacking STUN BATON PARTS, not to mention sledge or junk turret, have over 10 k dukes, 3 traders found but I am still using stone sledge hammer and bow - traders aren't selling any parts or batons, better barter at 3 as well ). That said I WANT to play intellect guy, but my options are very limited. When playing STR I feel OP already at this time Yes it is experimental and this issues can be easily fixed with couple of tweaks in xml and in A20 there will be stone age baton version.
But attributes trees currently would be balanced only if you just erase STR altogether.

Make those attribute skills intertwine with other trees, so it doesn't feel like points spent are wasted since you don't use weapons in that certain tree. The current dull, linear, crude boring system is the weakest link at current stage of the game. I know devs said they thought it through, but system is still very lacking. Implement it and replayability will rise ten fold.

Don't take it the wrong way, game overall is great, but in my opinion current system is holding this game back from being one of a true greats of all times.