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1 hour ago, Blake_ said:

That is an obvious thing to say. But I am still forced to expend in an attribute I don't wan't to expend. Who are you to force me into getting Strenght, even if it's the most convenient thing in the universe because I also get to use other perks and get a free lollipop out of the bargain?

 

Another perk page has the benefits of:

1. Not forcing me to expend in an attribute.

 

2. More screen space for other perks  for the affected attributes in the future.

 

3. Could be made more straight forward and not even have attribute gates OR be steeper, OR not be steeper OR having a coloured scarf, doesn't matter because the balance problem is solved as nobody forces me to pick strenght.

 

What kind of game that advertises itself as a roleplaying game  compels you in the lines of :

 

"sorry dude, you need to be a baker in order to be an efficient plumber, that's just the way it is. I don't know what nonsense are you spitting dude, a baker attribute is cheap and you can get it in no time and you can even pick a fork faster in the future duude. Good balance dude, you are blind."

 

Like and subscribe dude.

 

Kinda agree.....

 

I get the idea of wanting the players select different play styles, adding replayability etc., but the game is created in a way that some people fancy not restarting at all, but refurbishing a entire city over a long period of time. As one example. So that point of view is inherently flawed, at the current state of development. Perhaps this will change more, when end-game content is in, and perhaps you get accumulative bonus for completing the main quest as different character classes.  Even then though, that will probably not make a big difference.

 

The solution I see, is NOT starving the players for perk points. Let the pathing through the system be purely about, what is important first for survival at this gamestage. Then as gamestage progress, give more ways to unlock perks or give more perk points, so that you can more freely play the way you want, and not feel deprived by your preferred way of playing the game. So that in a reasonable timeframe, you are able to unlock all the perks you want.

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35 minutes ago, Marinxar said:

Kinda agree.....

 

I get the idea of wanting the players select different play styles, adding replayability etc., but the game is created in a way that some people fancy not restarting at all, but refurbishing a entire city over a long period of time. As one example. So that point of view is inherently flawed, at the current state of development. Perhaps this will change more, when end-game content is in, and perhaps you get accumulative bonus for completing the main quest as different character classes.  Even then though, that will probably not make a big difference.

 

The solution I see, is NOT starving the players for perk points. Let the pathing through the system be purely about, what is important first for survival at this gamestage. Then as gamestage progress, give more ways to unlock perks or give more perk points, so that you can more freely play the way you want, and not feel deprived by your preferred way of playing the game. So that in a reasonable timeframe, you are able to unlock all the perks you want.

That might be ok, but requires time to redesign and redevelop. All I'm asking is for a bit of sense and freedom by putting general use perks into one separate page. Hardly a stone in development time.  I can only see benefits to the overall gameplay experience : more space for more perks in the future, absolutely no obligation to invest in an attribute even in the long term and a straightforward and easy to manage balance if someday a crazy perk idea comes up and TFP want to add it in without any balance problems.

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Posted (edited)

What is this whole perk argument with mining going on? I had an entire playthrough to nearly 70 days and I only took the lowest level mining perk. Is it just people that want to live underground that feel bad that they have to use certain attributes? I think it really does add replayability as other perks definitely shine elsewhere, I had around 9 deaths at nearly 70days (items deleted on death and nightmare blood moons on the medium difficulty which is whatever is 1 up from default in A18) and I focused hard on Perception with some decent Fortitude and low Strength and Intelligence. I mined any surface nodes but never really dug deep, it sounds like just another way to play and in no way mandatory.

Edited by Tmodloader (see edit history)

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Well I guess you don't need any mining perks now that ammo is everywhere and the best way to acquire building material is the cobblestone pallets and cement bags found in abundance in every other POI.... 

 

I really liked the addition of cobblestone/cement blocks but imo it is way overtuned. I'd like them way more if they felt like an event, just like a book store brings you books, a construction site could bring you building materials. Alas right now they are everywhere and undervalue mining greatly. 

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I didn't play much, but I like the food changes, I enjoy stone age, I like the music, even the infamous battle theme, I like the new graphics, but sometimes my fps drops to 10-20 and I can't figure out what causes it.

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11 minutes ago, Tmodloader said:

Is it just people that want to live underground that feel bad that they have to use certain attributes?

 

No, most of the discussion is tied to attributes being gun damage instead of something that's always useful. Like if you use machine guns and spears, but want to dip into strength, you have to waste points on Shotgun damage which gives zero benefit to you, just so you can learn to cook better. (most) People aren't upset that each attribute has it's own build

 

I'll just quote myself on it from the other day because it's easier than retyping my opinion on it

 

On 7/6/2020 at 2:08 PM, Khalagar said:

The attribute / perk system would make way more sense if it was just broken down into the common sense roles, so people could do different builds but also get value from every point.

 

 It would be way better if the base attribute was actually useful and provided value on it's own

 

Fortitude = points in attribute itself raise health, and then all the perks in the tree are the damage resistance perks and healing perks

Strength = points in attribute increase block damage or increase carry load like Pack Mule, and then the perks could be a perk for each melee weapon and for mining etc

Agility = points in attribute increase default move speed or grant the parkour perk or something, and all the stamina perks could go here
Perception = points in attribute increase headshot damage and all the individual gun perks go here

Int = points unlock crafting recipes as you invest in int, and the actual perks could be stuff like the wrench perk, junk turret stuff, charisma stuff etc

 

You'd still have builds, but it wouldn't punish you for going after perks in an attribute tree that you don't use the weapons for. My friend always wants to max out the Parkour perk so he can jump higher, but then runs around with an Ak47 and grenades. So every single point he puts in the agility attribute is completely and totally wasted and he gets quite literally 0 value out of like 15+ levels worth of points, but had to spend all of those points on pistol and bow damage, just so he can jump higher

6 minutes ago, beHypE said:

I really liked the addition of cobblestone/cement blocks but imo it is way overtuned. I'd like them way more if they felt like an event, just like a book store brings you books, a construction site could bring you building materials. Alas right now they are everywhere and undervalue mining greatly. 

Yeah, I think there's a wee bit much. I've got like 9K cobble stone and cement, and that's after using like 14K on building. I can easily get 2-4 full stacks from clearing stuff like a shotgun messiah or Shamway factory and just breaking down the bags. ATM there is basically no reason to mine at all, but Mad Mole said they are nerfing ammo so that might make nitrate and coal have some purpose again. 

 

I basically only mine for Iron and Shale, and only do that like once a month, if that. Just wrenching cars gives me so much iron and gas and stuff I've not really needed to go back to my shale or iron mine in a long time

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On 7/6/2020 at 12:08 PM, Khalagar said:

Fortitude = points in attribute itself raise health, and then all the perks in the tree are the damage resistance perks and healing perks

Strength = points in attribute increase block damage or increase carry load like Pack Mule, and then the perks could be a perk for each melee weapon and for mining etc

Agility = points in attribute increase default move speed or grant the parkour perk or something, and all the stamina perks could go here
Perception = points in attribute increase headshot damage and all the individual gun perks go here

Int = points unlock crafting recipes as you invest in int, and the actual perks could be stuff like the wrench perk, junk turret stuff, charisma stuff etc

 

You'd still have builds, but it wouldn't punish you for going after perks in an attribute tree that you don't use the weapons for. My friend always wants to max out the Parkour perk so he can jump higher, but then runs around with an Ak47 and grenades. So every single point he puts in the agility attribute is completely and totally wasted and he gets quite literally 0 value out of like 15+ levels worth of points, but had to spend all of those points on pistol and bow damage, just so he can jump higher

The problem with this is you'll run into the same issue. What if you want to be faster but don't want any of the perks in agility for instance? Or what if you're interested in whatever requires Int but would much rather have extra block damage? It's basically the same issues any way you paint it.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Tmodloader said:

What if you want to be faster but don't want any of the perks in agility for instance?

 

You still just Invest in agility? You can freely invest in the attribute, and the attribute should be valuable on it's own, so if you think 1% movespeed or something is worth a perk point, you can stick a point in Agility and aren't obligated to go for the perks in the tree itself. Same for Int

 

That's basically the point. Right now, perks are gated behind attributes, so you have to put 15  points in Agility to jump high, but if you don't use pistols or bows, those 15 points are completely useless. If you wanted 10% more movespeed but nothing else from agility, you could still just invest your 15 points in agility and get what you wanted, instead of having to invest 15 points in something you will get zero value out of, and THEN invest another 5 points in the thing you actually want that benefits you

 

 

In my mind, every single perk in the game should have value on it's own. Not necessarily for every build, so there's nothing with a perk that focuses on bow damage specifically or something. But gating perks that are good for many builds behind attributes that are ONLY good for ONE build is the issue. The goal should be for the player to get value out of every  perk point they *have* to spend. Like if I want miner 69 but use only snipers, I'm at least getting value out of my points in Strength because they increase my base block damage or increase my carry load or something

Edited by Khalagar (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

@Khalagar I see how you want it. Thing is those 15 points are going toward the unlock of more powerful versions of perks under the attribute. Think of it like that instead, it makes it more enjoyable. The attribute bonuses are not supposed to be a primary reward as they are built into the game currently, they are vastly to open up new perk ranks.

 

Your friend is benefiting from those 15 agility points by being able to jump higher than players who are not using those points for those perks.

Edited by Tmodloader (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

. . .or those 15 points could just useful lol. There's no reason why increasing your agility means you do more damage with an SMG. They specifically got rid of "level locked" perks where you had to be X level to get a perk, but that's basically all your description of the attribute is. "It provides no value what so ever on it's own, but eventually you can get the thing you want!" doesn't really stand solid on it's own when you could just as easily get some moderate benefits from the attribute that make sense.

 

The current attribute system isn't very noob friendly because it is anti- common sense.  "I've got 10 fortitude, I bet I'm super tanky right?!" Nope, you just do more headshot damage with an M60 for some reason. "I've got 10 strength, I bet I can carry a ton of stuff!!!" nope, you just do more damage with a shotgun randomly

Edited by Khalagar (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Blake_ said:

That might be ok, but requires time to redesign and redevelop. All I'm asking is for a bit of sense and freedom by putting general use perks into one separate page. Hardly a stone in development time.  I can only see benefits to the overall gameplay experience : more space for more perks in the future, absolutely no obligation to invest in an attribute even in the long term and a straightforward and easy to manage balance if someday a crazy perk idea comes up and TFP want to add it in without any balance problems.

Only problem is; who defines what is 'general use'. Your playstyle? My playstyle?

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It really comes down to players not wanting to make choices.

They want the path to their preferred combination of perks all highlighted and linear with zero points "wasted" on something they consider non-essential.

 

There are 2 problems with that.

1. The gameplay of this game's skill system is based on making choices.

2. It's not going to change.

 

 

It's not even a problem of them being "locked out" of certain perks. You can get over 300 skill points. Their problem is that they want easy access to a very specific set of perks that makes their particular play style easier.

Putting together a new attribute for the purpose of maximum OP with least skill points invested is good material for a mod, not the vanilla game.

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42 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

 

You still just Invest in agility? You can freely invest in the attribute, and the attribute should be valuable on it's own, so if you think 1% movespeed or something is worth a perk point, you can stick a point in Agility and aren't obligated to go for the perks in the tree itself. Same for Int

 

That's basically the point. Right now, perks are gated behind attributes, so you have to put 15  points in Agility to jump high, but if you don't use pistols or bows, those 15 points are completely useless. If you wanted 10% more movespeed but nothing else from agility, you could still just invest your 15 points in agility and get what you wanted, instead of having to invest 15 points in something you will get zero value out of, and THEN invest another 5 points in the thing you actually want that benefits you

 

 

In my mind, every single perk in the game should have value on it's own. Not necessarily for every build, so there's nothing with a perk that focuses on bow damage specifically or something. But gating perks that are good for many builds behind attributes that are ONLY good for ONE build is the issue. The goal should be for the player to get value out of every  perk point they *have* to spend. Like if I want miner 69 but use only snipers, I'm at least getting value out of my points in Strength because they increase my base block damage or increase my carry load or something

See, that's the problem there... your approach makes no sense in real life.

 

When you're strong you'll inherently get benefits from being strong if you do several activities, but if you're (e.g.) a Bodybuilder it doesn't mean you'll go into a mine and start mining, though if you do DO, you'll be at an advantage over a wimpy nerd in the same situation.

 

That's why it makes sense to connect perks to attributes, I don't understand how you can't see it. 🤨

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Posted (edited)

I think he makes a decent enough point to be fair. Attributes powering up specific weapons while also unlocking access to the speciality of those same weapons is not only redundant, but also like he stated a waste if you want to level up a specific perk in a tree that governs weapons you don't want to use.

 

I don't think the game would be worse if the attributes gave something that boosted every character regardless of his weapon of choice. He's not trying to argue about having to spend X amount of points as a precondition of unlocking something, he's merely saying that it would be nice if those X points didn't feel like a complete waste in isolation. 

Edited by beHypE (see edit history)

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I think having to make choices on perks is fine As long as you can unlock everything by means of grinding out levels or finding skill books as some of us (me) dont have friends lol.

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Posted (edited)

I haven't seen anyone saying that being stronger shouldn't result in being better at things that obviously take strength.

 

Yet the Bow, which would require the most strength of any in-game ranged weapon gains nothing from upping strength.

 

Breaking things out of these clumsy pseudo 'archetype' templates would allow a true, pure Strength Attribute to benefit Bows, and Clubs, etc.

Would also allow for Crossbows to not benefit as much from Str, so a "stealth" player who wasn't also miner, or club user, could decide to go with crossbows over bows.

 

Edit: extrapolate from there. No suprise a more open system would support more choices.

Edited by FileMachete (see edit history)
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thats because very little of any of this makes any sense at all.

i defy you to disagree. 

lol

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It's not a game breaking thing but it woul'd be nice if "parkour" perk still allowed me to jump 1m or 2m depending on how long I hold down space.

 

The thing is, so many "paths of least resistance" take you outside of POIs and many times you have to jumt to get back inside. Just now, I fell down because there was a half block above the ledge and it bounced me away from the ledge.

I climbed back up but it was impossible to jump on the ledge (this is a bit game breaking) because the block above me always sent me flying.

 

Another way to solve this is to make head collisions not push you sideways.

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2 hours ago, Gazz said:

It really comes down to players not wanting to make choices.

They want the path to their preferred combination of perks all highlighted and linear with zero points "wasted" on something they consider non-essential.

 

There are 2 problems with that.

1. The gameplay of this game's skill system is based on making choices.

2. It's not going to change.

 

 

It's not even a problem of them being "locked out" of certain perks. You can get over 300 skill points. Their problem is that they want easy access to a very specific set of perks that makes their particular play style easier.

Putting together a new attribute for the purpose of maximum OP with least skill points invested is good material for a mod, not the vanilla game.

Well, then increase the points needed for them. The problem of the "forcing me to chose miner/motherload/sexrex every single time I play with every single attribute that  is not strenght" when I want to mine is still there. 

 

Breaking news, a player cannot use a steel pickaxe or even an iron one with basic effectivity if they choose not to invest in strenght. Not even buffed. plus they fight and use tools waay worse overall.

 

Far from "forcing the perk", this current system is worse still, it is "forcing an attribute" on me and therefore a gameplay style and a roleplaying experience that I might have decided not to do.

 

Bad. Less bad that a17's intellect, but still bad. 

 

Actually, those 3 perks are the only ones off the top of my head that I can think of that need real separation.

 

They are too pivotal to ever be balanced propely unless they are under "general survival perks " with or without further gating or  cost. The problem isn't cost here. 

 

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8 hours ago, Kiernan531 said:

I really love this game, just bought it a short time ago but already pumped over 100 hours into it.  While it is great that you are still updating the game to try and fix problems and add content, it really disincentivizes me to play if every time you update it I can no longer play my old saves.  I spent so much time leveling up my character and building up my base defenses and now to play with the new version I have to start the game all over... sure I can opt out of the beta and play an older version, but that is a lot of time downloading and reinstalling versions when I want to change characters, such as when I go from my single player game to my multiplayer game.  And then when another version comes out I would have to start over again... isn't there a way to make it so games could be imported from one version to another?  Skill points could be returned so that players could redistribute them in the new skill trees, removed items could be taken out but all other items left alone, etc.  I've played other early access games that go through several versions but my early saves are still playable in the new builds.

 
 
With time you get used to it.
 I hate the game for this very reason. Hours and hours working for nothing. But when you buy it, the game says "early access" and against that it can't do or say anything. Ha Just forget and start again.
 It will heal your wounds. I say this from experience
 (Or you can also give yourself everything as the "good mod" but it will never be the same and you will live in nostalgia)
Just now, rubens9311 said:
 
 

With time you get used to it.
 I hate the game for this very reason. Hours and hours working for nothing. But when you buy it, the game says "early access" and against that it can't do or say anything. Ha Just forget and start again.
 It will heal your wounds. I say this from experience
 (Or you can also give yourself everything as the "good mod" but it will never be the same and you will live in nostalgia)

 

Please I need you to tell me how to answer without that white background. I hate it.

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8 hours ago, Blake_ said:

That is an obvious thing to say. But I am still forced to expend in an attribute I don't wan't to expend. Who are you to force me into getting Strenght, even if it's the most convenient thing in the universe because I also get to use other perks and get a free lollipop out of the bargain?

 

Another perk page has the benefits of:

1. Not forcing me to expend in an attribute.

 

2. More screen space for other perks  for the affected attributes in the future.

 

3. Could be made more straight forward and not even have attribute gates OR be steeper, OR not be steeper OR having a coloured scarf, doesn't matter because the balance problem is solved as nobody forces me to pick strenght.

 

What kind of game that advertises itself as a roleplaying game  compels you in the lines of :

 

"sorry dude, you need to be a baker in order to be an efficient plumber, that's just the way it is. I don't know what nonsense are you spitting dude, a baker attribute is cheap and you can get it in no time and you can even pick a fork faster in the future duude. Good balance dude, you are blind."

 

Like and subscribe dude.

 

 

So you are saying that you would gladly invest 5 points into miner69 to get it to level 3, but rail at putting 2 points in strength and 3 in miner69 to get it to level 3. You realize that this is more about sensibilities and expectations and has nothing to do with logic?

 

I could list a few role playing systems and games where abilities are confined to a class. The thing is, 7D2D has an open class system, but calls it classes "strength" and "perception" instead of "miner" and "sniper". Perks are distributed for better fit not immersion.

 

6 hours ago, IrishGhost said:

What do you mean perfect? If you mean flawless I can't agree at all. If serviceable then sure, but far from perfect. I know this is a bit off-topic but I am curious.

Someone could call a game he plays hundreds of hours in and never has a dull moment perfect. Absolute perfection in anything we do is impossible anyway.

 

2 hours ago, FileMachete said:

I haven't seen anyone saying that being stronger shouldn't result in being better at things that obviously take strength.

 

Yet the Bow, which would require the most strength of any in-game ranged weapon gains nothing from upping strength.

 

Breaking things out of these clumsy pseudo 'archetype' templates would allow a true, pure Strength Attribute to benefit Bows, and Clubs, etc.

Would also allow for Crossbows to not benefit as much from Str, so a "stealth" player who wasn't also miner, or club user, could decide to go with crossbows over bows.

 

Edit: extrapolate from there. No suprise a more open system would support more choices.

Forget about arguing attributes because of their names, they are just passable labels to something that has no fixed name. Even class names like miner or sniper, who I would prefer, are only approximations.

 

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18 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

when you sawed off a double barrel

 

Super Shorty Sawed Off by KevlarKatana | Saw, Super, Shorty

That`s for a massage, aim it very near to a head of a zed, it will feel better for life when triggered, I mean when you turn it on. 

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50 minutes ago, rubens9311 said:
 
 

With time you get used to it.
 I hate the game for this very reason. Hours and hours working for nothing. But when you buy it, the game says "early access" and against that it can't do or say anything. Ha Just forget and start again.
 It will heal your wounds. I say this from experience
 (Or you can also give yourself everything as the "good mod" but it will never be the same and you will live in nostalgia)

 


Please I need you to tell me how to answer without that white background. I hate it.

In the editor select the text and klick on the 4th button from the right, the icon that looks like an eraser. Hovering over it says "Remove format"

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, beerfly said:

That`s for a massage, aim it very near to a head of a zed, it will feel better for life when triggered, I mean when you turn it on. 

when A19 was coming out i though they gave the double barrel a new model. the one they showed in the gun store shelf. to say i was disappointed was a understatement. 

 

image.png.d52543584585373a9279206dcb652941.png

 

Edited by Adam the Waster (see edit history)

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