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Alpha 19 Dev Diary


madmole

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47 minutes ago, Khalagar said:
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Not so much about it being too hard, as it just completely killing the mining play style. I like the added difficulty in A19, and the changes to try and make food perks worth considering are valid, but mining is in a really, really bad spot.  There's nothing "hard" about holding down M1 and mining down to bedrock, but it's not fun with the current stamina system where you spend ten times longer out of stamina than you do mining.

I said it before but, stamina as a system is never, ever fun to interact with, because stamina as a system is just "How often you can actually play the game". Play the game too much in too short of a time? Go sit in time out and think about what you did while it recharges with zero interaction from the player.

 

Snipped the comment for space and put it under spoilers. So, they want you to use the various foods/drinks and your skill trees (in this case, str and sexual tyrannosaurus). They would have to balance the whole game around removing stamina for mining tools to prevent steel fortresses by day 7. So, I did some science on this.

ST = sex trex. C = coffee. B = beer. Times are until first swing out of stamina

1pt ST + stone axe = NA, can mine infinitely
1pt ST + iron pick = 16.62s | 22.56 w/C | 48.43 w/ C+B (here on out, |raw| |coffee| |coffee+beer|
1pt ST + steel pick = 11.22s| 13.94 | 21.91

3pt ST + iron pick = 24.52 | 1:07.17 | NA, infinite under C+B
3pt ST + steel pick - 17.14 | 27.83 | 1:35.44

So, yes you can still do your tunneling and dwarven-mode game-play: You just need to change from the days of infinite-stamina with no help ways from previous alphas :). Adding points into ST, drinking some coffee will give you a large boost, adding beer makes it significantly more (and when you do run out of stamina, under these buffs you near-instantly refill). There are still ergonomic grips to add, another point into ST, food buffs, mega crush, hydration buffs to add to further increase your mining time. Now go eat, drink, and mine away.

 

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I know the T5 quests have been an issue for people for a while. And even MM said they aren't focusing on T5 POIs, but rather more T4 ones. 

 

I think just having a bit better loot would help the factories be more worth it. Also, what about adding a few more T5s that are just smaller? Could also include the house that's in the south of Nav that has the bunker under it as a T5, if it isn't already. I know I've never been sent to it. 

 

Another option would be making T5 quests varied a bit. Maybe have it so you have to go clear 2 smaller POIs instead. Or even one that's normally a T2, but is now more severely infested. Or has a demolisher in it. Lol. 

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On 7/4/2020 at 6:03 PM, madmole said:

Like I think we need a store all and store similar function, little things that make organizing easier.

 

You actually have the code to implement those buttons in the vanilla game dating back to A18.  They just need button art and to be placed in the inventory UI via a tiny bit of XML.   

 

The dev implemented Store All, Fill Existing Stacks (but not new stacks if it fills one totally), Store existing (including new stacks as needed), and a system to lock the first X slots of the backpack from being used by the rest of the storage buttons.

 

You are right that they are very handy when enabled by the little bit of missing XML.  

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11 hours ago, toores said:

Tier 5 quests are horrible compared to tier 4 and now i only have 1 available until the trader resets. I seriously regret taking the last special trader quest. Any way to downgrade quests to TIER 4?

Couldn't there be sepparate menu for each tier? (with multiple quests for each tier)

I have loot respawn turned off and now I only get like 2 factories and one brick apt recycling - none of which I ever want to do again.

 

And on the same note, why do the same 4 POI's repeat if there are more options in the town?

We plan on some way to do lower tier quests in a future version.

6 hours ago, Trunks_Budo said:

I'm feeling weird. I'm pure agility, 4/5 in archery, pistols, and knife. I have 4/4 parkour and 3/3 run & gun. But the primary aspect of the tree, stealth, has virtually no appeal to me. It just feels strange lol, I'd rather walk into a POI with my level 5 SMG and pop headshot after headshot than waste time, money, and immersion sneaking around. I feel at conflict with myself over that aspect of these character builds. I think some things should have a separate list and should not be governed by attributes, primary things that every character can opt into regardless of attribute; Mining, stealth, farming, animal hunting and harvesting. I feel those aspects of the game should not be restricted to certain builds. I'd love it if I didn't have to wholly waste points into strength just to get into mining, you know?

I know MM likes the attribute system but it just seems like it's way too multiplayer centric, and doesn't cater to the enjoyment of single-players. It's meant for repeat playthroughs, but I like to invest myself in one world and build all kinds of bridges and monuments and tunnels through mountains to drive through, etc. Having a "classic" perk option in the world settings would be perfect, where nothing is limited by attribute specialization, and you can specialize into different perks freely, independent of attribute investment. Let's face it, I have 1.5 megabits of internet here in the country, I'm not playing online any time soon. So I have to do everything alone. I'd love to have a single playthrough where I don't feel like I'm missing out on other things in other attributes. I had this problem with Alpha 18/17 too and it always ends up coming back to this.

I'm not enjoying a stealth build, I'm enjoying an agility build. It's effective, but if I specialize in strength first, for example, I can't just run around on bloodmoon night shooting and throwing molotovs, because I won't have Run and Gun from the agility tree to reload while sprinting. So I am essentially forced (Yes, forced) to spec into agility first every time I play, if I don't want to engage in tower defense and rather, take the fight to them directly. I can, technically, have agility first and strength second, but not without weeks of dreadful zombie kill grinding to make it so. I feel like attributes themselves belong, agility, strength, etc, but putting POINTS into attributes doesn't belong. It would be better if the benefits of the attributes, IE headshot damage and dismemberment chance, were localized into new perks listed under each attribute. I know a lot of time and resources went into the development of this attribute system, but it just seems like a cheap way to make every player feel like they're missing out on things they want every playthrough. You can't reasonably brag about "this many hours" of play time on your game per year if you're really just psy@%$*#!gically (Psych - ologic - ally) manipulating people into engaging in multiple short-term playthroughs that always make them feel like they're missing out on things they want. 

Essentially the biggest solution I can recommend, is keep attributes, they fit; But don't gate every perk behind an attribute that I must first put points into. If anything, make new perks for headshot damage and dismember chance per weapon type, and remove the attribute requirements for different ranks of different perks. 

I grab some mining perks no matter what build I am playing. It is not like you can't have your cake and eat it too, eventually. If you take mining perks too soon you will deal with less combat abilities. But it is a very small investment to get decent at mining IMO. You just can't be the best miner but you can be adequate with 3 ranks pretty early game for a small investment.

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5 hours ago, HeavyMetalGamer8 said:

Loving the new alpha so far however one thing as got me thinking, whats up with the "tiered" loot system? I know it is tied to your game stage and i agree we should not be getting M60s and Augers on day 1. Does anyone else feel that doing this is making looting boring? after getting 20 stone axes and spears i am like...."sigh" this is getting dull, looting the dungeon style POIs is possibly the best part of 7days2die. After clearing out a POI and entering the "loot" room its always exciting popping open the treasure chest and supply creates, or at least it used to be. i know end game it will be amazing FINALLY getting the high tier loot but it makes doing tier 2,3,4 POIs pointless at even day 10, which at this point i am totally ready to explore.

 

Also i am seeing that perk books and schematics are going to be tiered as well? that will totally destroy the fun factor of looting full stop IMO, i have been able to get a 4x4 at day 10 thanks to the schematics and being able to buy the steel for it. i have also found the auto shotgun schematic but have not made it yet due to spending all my dukes on the steel for the 4x4 and ammo for horde nights+food. 

 

Just think getting nothing but stone tools/weapons and the same crappy books/schematics over and over again until day 15 when you finally hit tier 2 loot. getting to those loot rooms will no longer be fun and exciting. 

 

I was thinking about maybe putting the high tier loot attached to traders, and tie them to high tier quests? possibly add new quests like "build and defend" or just "repair base" along side the not so great fetch/kill quests. Then chain them together, so you want an M60? you got to get to tier 3-4 trader quests and do 10 quests that are chained together in a numbered order of difficulty THEN the trader will sell the rewarded Item. This example the M60 for say ......100,000 dukes? it gives it a sense of progression and achievement knowing you WILL get that nice top tier gun without waiting for tiered loot to catch up with you. 

We will improve it. This is just a first quick attempt at a primitive stage. Part of the problem is we only have a few primitive weapons, once we get the pipe pistol, pipe machinegun, pipe rifle and pipe baton in, then all classes will be treated fairly and there will just be a lot more things in the loot pool. We could always bring in a low chance to start getting iron tools and iron guns sooner, but the general idea is, as long as you are getting something a little better you are pretty happy. We also have talked about doing a faster loot and a slower loot modifier so if you want you could start in the iron age, or have primitive last even longer, just with a slider. There is no way to make everyone happy with it, but it will get better for sure in the future.

4 hours ago, Jarod_Silverstar said:

I think some limited tiering for schematics and recipies might be nice. Tier 0-1 would be basic items like plain foods, forge, workbench and similar items you need to get started. Tier 1-2 would be your basic guns and armor. Tier 2-3 would start getting into mods for everything.

 

 

I imagine some overlap at all tiers, so there is a rare chance for something good but we haven't finalized any of that yet. My take on it is if I have nothing, a bicycle is good. Once I have that I'd be happy with a minibike, so on and so forth.

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Day 8 of my no-trader (not even entering the trader compounds), no-starter quest run (warrior, sprint days nightmare rest, no loot respawns). Gotta say, it's been a pleasing struggle of survival. The only real issues with that is (besides not having the points from the starter quest) good-meal ingredients and medicine (first aid bandages, etc.) is rare to come by. I scrounge everywhere for corn, potatoes, blueberries, but I've only come across about 24 corn (from fields), and on day 6 I finally found a potato and a pumpkin seed. Dukes are surprisingly only really found in zombie loot bags I got on horde night and in a treasure quest chest (I do allow POI vending machine purchases :p). Nothing I would say needs balancing, really, since traders are intended to be used and balancing outside would really ruin the overall balance. It's an interesting way to play, makes you consider every action.

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4 hours ago, Syrex said:

@madmole Does turrets count as electrical "traps" for the advanced engineering xp?

 

 

Yes.

3 hours ago, Worrun said:

Mr Mad Mole, I have a question.

 

There has been a lot of stir in the community regarding the rapid depletion of the food bar, are there any plans to tweak this as experimental moves forward, and are you guys aware of this 'issue' that a good chunk of the player base are having? Example eating 20 tins of tuna to fill your food bar, then it being empty and starving again within a couple of hours

(disclaimer i have no issue keeping my food maxxed out and i am the groups farmer and manage to keep everyone well-fed with spaghetti and meat stew without issues, but i see what the people are saying and agree that it needs tweaking)

 

Hopefully this disclaimer will protect me from SOME of the closed-minded people that just attack everyone with a suggestion/opinion/question

 

Thanks for your time.

Food is a non issue in single player. There might be bugs in MP, which I'm assuming you are referring to?

We did find broken iron gut perks and red tea doesn't work, so that will help those who are struggling (not me in the slightest but I mostly play SP).

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2 hours ago, Jugginator said:

Snipped the comment for space and put it under spoilers. So, they want you to use the various foods/drinks and your skill trees (in this case, str and sexual tyrannosaurus). They would have to balance the whole game around removing stamina for mining tools to prevent steel fortresses by day 7. So, I did some science on this.


ST = sex trex. C = coffee. B = beer. Times are until first swing out of stamina

1pt ST + stone axe = NA, can mine infinitely
1pt ST + iron pick = 16.62s | 22.56 w/C | 48.43 w/ C+B (here on out, |raw| |coffee| |coffee+beer|
1pt ST + steel pick = 11.22s| 13.94 | 21.91

3pt ST + iron pick = 24.52 | 1:07.17 | NA, infinite under C+B
3pt ST + steel pick - 17.14 | 27.83 | 1:35.44

So, yes you can still do your tunneling and dwarven-mode game-play: You just need to change from the days of infinite-stamina with no help ways from previous alphas :). Adding points into ST, drinking some coffee will give you a large boost, adding beer makes it significantly more (and when you do run out of stamina, under these buffs you near-instantly refill). There are still ergonomic grips to add, another point into ST, food buffs, mega crush, hydration buffs to add to further increase your mining time. Now go eat, drink, and mine away.

 


Been testing these numbers since you posted it, and Sex Rex makes a huuuuge difference with even a single point, I'm wondering if it's a bug and matters more than it says.

 

At level 50 with 4/5 Miner 69, I can't even break half of a 2500 health block before I'm out of stamina. 1 point of Sex Rex pushes it to where I can get the block to about 1K health with Iron and Steel pick, coffee pushes it over so that I can break a single block before getting winded. Bigger issue than just the stamina though, is the food drain is nuts. I seem to be using around 2-3 food per stamina bar. I burned through 20+ food in a few minutes just testing the different picks on the side of a nearby PoI.

 

I just tested going to bedrock on my level 50 character with 4/5 Miner 69 and 1 Sex Rex, using a Steel Pick with a rockbreaker and ironbreaker mod, and after eating a Meat Stew and using Coffee

 

Took about 3 hours in game, 20 food, several coffee, and a repair kit, but I got there!

 

The results weren't as bad as my early game test a few days ago when I tried to go mining with my first Iron Pick and a bunch of canned food and coffee, but TBH like 80% of that success and speed to get to bedrock was because I have 50% more stamina because I'm higher level and then another 20 was from my Stew.

 

 

 

For giggles I tried it on a new character with 1 Sex Rex and 2 Miner 69 and nothing else. Using a Level 5 steel pick with the rock, iron, and dirt breaker mods, and using Blackstrap coffee because normal coffee was taking WAY too long

 

Going to bedrook took about 5 hours in game and 20 food. I guess I should have used an Iron pick to more accurately represent how much food it would take, but that would have taken frickin forever-er.

 

With Blackstrap coffee, it takes 8 full seconds to regenerate my stamina bar from 20 (where I stop being able to use my tool) to 105. So I mine for 20 seconds and then run out of stamina, and then stand still for 8 seconds not doing anything waiting for it to recharge.

 

That's almost 50% downtime between "actually playing the game" and why I say stamina is not a fun mechanic, Stamina exists specifically to *stop* you from having fun and playing the game, hence, a punishing stamina system being more annoying than fun. I break exactly 4 blocks, then stand there AFK for 8 seconds until I can play the game again. Nearly a full half of my time spent mining is spent AFK staring at my pick waiting for my stamina to come back

 

Part of the problem I have with the current mining set up is that it's all geared around food and drinks etc. That's okay late game, but farm plots are expensive AF, and it takes a lot of perks to get there. Sex Rex is something I don't ever normally invest in because it's not good late game, but a single point in it made a very noticeable difference for tools and max Sex Rex would be completely mandatory if people actually used Picks past mid game. Coffee is just RNG to get to spawn in vending machines if you don't have farm plots, and blackstrap is SUPER rare for some reason, to the point where I've seen 2 total by day 30 and still can't even craft it myself.

 

I agree with the person a few days back who talked about their new friend who started to play 7 Days and was going to be a miner and instantly nope'd out. There are so many pre-reqs to actually play a mining character that it's crazy. I just did the math and you need around 25 points to even really be a decent miner, and like half of those points are food and gardening perks so you don't starve to death

 

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On 7/3/2020 at 1:21 PM, e1ghtbit said:

Have you guys been running into invisible zombies?  I'm having to keep a junk turret with me to kill them or I can't finish quests.

Yes, I have been hit by an invisible zombie. as have a lot of other players according to the sub reddit. Seems like it is the zombie Steve crawler. Which makes it even worse. But I hear using a spike trap helps to kill them, that or molotov is what they are saying to use against them. I hope they get this fixed really soon.

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Just now, DeltaSniper said:

Yes, I have been hit by an invisible zombie. as have a lot of other players according to the sub reddit. Seems like it is the zombie Steve crawler. Which makes it even worse. But I hear using a spike trap helps to kill them, that or molotov is what they are saying to use against them. I hope they get this fixed really soon.

@e1ghtbit 

Invisible zombies happen when the server is still running B154 and the client is on B157.   They updated the entityclasses.xml for the crawler.    Depending on what happened with the save during the mismatch period you might have to wipe the save.

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1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

  


Been testing these numbers since you posted it, and Sex Rex makes a huuuuge difference with even a single point, I'm wondering if it's a bug and matters more than it says.

 

At level 50 with 3/5 Miner 69, I can't even break half of a 2500 health block before I'm out of stamina. 1 point of Sex Rex pushes it to where I can get the block to about 1K health with Iron and Steel pick, coffee pushes it over so that I can break a single block before getting winded. Bigger issue than just the stamina though, is the food drain is nuts. I seem to be using around 2-3 food per stamina bar. I burned through 20+ food in a minute or two just testing the different picks.

 

I just tested going to bedrock on my level 50 character with 4/5 Miner 69 and 1 Sex Rex, using a Steel Pick with a rockbreaker and ironbreaker mod, and after eating a Meat Stew and using Coffee

 

Took about 3 hours in game, 20 food, several coffee, and a repair kit, but I got there!

 

The results weren't as bad as my early game test a few days ago when I tried to go mining with my first Iron Pick and a bunch of canned food and coffee, but TBH like 80% of that success and speed to get to bedrock was because I have 50% more stamina because I'm higher level and then another 20 was from my Stew.

 

 

 

For giggles I tried it on a new character with 1 Sex Rex and 2 Miner 69 and nothing else. Using a Level 5 steel pick with the rock, iron, and dirt breaker mods, and using Blackstrap coffee because normal coffee was taking WAY too long

 

Going to bedrook took about 5 hours in game and 20 food. I guess I should have used an Iron pick to more accurately represent how much food it would take, but that would have taken frickin forever-er.

 

With Blackstrap coffee, it takes 8 full seconds to regenerate my stamina bar from 20 (where I stop being able to use my tool) to 105. So I mine for 20 seconds and then run out of stamina, and then stand still for 8 seconds not doing anything waiting for it to recharge.

 

That's almost 50% downtime between "actually playing the game" and why I say stamina is not a fun mechanic, Stamina exists specifically to *stop* you from having fun and playing the game, hence, a punishing stamina system being more annoying than fun. I break exactly 4 blocks, then stand there AFK for 8 seconds until I can play the game again. Nearly a full half of my time spent mining is spent AFK staring at my pick waiting for my stamina to come back

 

Part of the problem I have with the current mining set up is that it's all geared around food and drinks etc. That's okay late game, but farm plots are expensive AF, and it takes a lot of perks to get there. Sex Rex is something I don't ever normally invest in because it's not good late game, but a single point in it made a very noticeable difference for tools and max Sex Rex would be completely mandatory if people actually used Picks past mid game. Coffee is just RNG to get to spawn in vending machines if you don't have farm plots, and blackstrap is SUPER rare for some reason, to the point where I've seen 2 total by day 30 and still can't even craft it myself.

Farm plots are not expensive, the real gate is seeds. There is ample gore on the roads to craft plenty of plots. I have zero perks in farming and have a pretty good sized farm and endless coffee by day 29.

There is no reason to go to bedrock. All the ore is plentiful near the surface.

20 food is nothing. You can get over 50 food from one meal.

If you are into mining you should be a strength character, which gives you super cheap access to coffee and all the best foods, and sex rex which is a good investment for any build.

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1 hour ago, TPrice321 said:

@e1ghtbit 

Invisible zombies happen when the server is still running B154 and the client is on B157.   They updated the entityclasses.xml for the crawler.    Depending on what happened with the save during the mismatch period you might have to wipe the save.

Thanks!  That makes sense.  I expect odd things like this with experimental builds.

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7 hours ago, jasonsaffle13 said:

I had an odd issue while placing wooden bars. I could not see them I could hear them when I rotate. When I move the placement up or down I can see the bars then they work normally.

 

I have run into this numerous times as well with wooden bars, wood frames, etc. 

It seems if I look away & then back again to where I want to place the block, it suddenly appears. 

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@madmole , honestly not trying to poke the bear with the following.

 

2 hours ago, madmole said:

If you are into mining you should be a strength character

tl;dr ==> that's fine, but what if I don't want to be a shotgunner/clubber?

 

I think this is the central nugget for a fair few recent posts related to character builds, trees/attributes etc.

 

Totally get the real world, makes sense part of this. (I was a carpenter in earlier days and no BS burned 7000+ calories a day)

 

It's that as a Single Player, who likes to build (and actually enjoys mining in 7dtd), I'm _always_ buying Strength, even when I have no intention of using Shotguns or Sledge or Clubs.

 

Were Weapon Specializations to become decoupled from core attributes like Strength, while to be a good miner still required spending numerous points in "strength", but I could specialize in whichever main weapons I wanted, for the same total points cost, that'd be ideal. For me at least.

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4 hours ago, Khalagar said:

With Blackstrap coffee, it takes 8 full seconds to regenerate my stamina bar from 20 (where I stop being able to use my tool) to 105. So I mine for 20 seconds and then run out of stamina, and then stand still for 8 seconds not doing anything waiting for it to recharge.

 

That's almost 50% downtime between "actually playing the game"...

I believe you have a typo there, 8 is a little less than 30% if the whole cycle takes 28 sec.

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3 hours ago, madmole said:

If you are into mining you should be a strength character, which gives you super cheap access to coffee and all the best foods, and sex rex which is a good investment for any build.

I have never been into mining a lot. Having stamina to break blocks is necessary for every player in a destructibe voxel game.

I just had to break down 5 poles on the roof of a fire department. They were 10k steel + 5k concrete. So each pole was 15k to break. Purple iron pickaxe fully modded, coffee, food... It took pretty long and the stamina waiting ain't the funnest gameplay.
 

I play fortitude-agility build and I'm not too thrilled about having to go into strength at all. But I guess it is inevitable...

 

While talking about perks you must have, do I still need to go full INT to get decent solar stuff?

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I was doing a test yesterday with the trader questing system for my video that is upcoming and I noticed that all the traders with within 1km of each other all in the burnt biome.

 

I was playing on a 4x4 random gen map and I did all the quests from tier 1-5 and I had trader Jen as the tier 2 trader and as the tier 5 as well.

 

Just curious if anyone else has noticed this as well?

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2 hours ago, FileMachete said:

@madmole

 

tl;dr ==> that's fine, but what if I don't want to be a shotgunner/clubber?

 

I think this is the central nugget for a fair few recent posts related to character builds, trees/attributes etc.

Indeed, I think it all boils down to this. Mining being a chore if you are not specialized in it is fine, just like it is fine struggling with food if you don't specialize in LotL/Masterchef, or struggling with tech/explosives if you are not the int/perception guy. 

 

What is really problematic here is that combat perks are tied to attributes. The suggestion someone made of unlocking both classic points and combat points and separating the two concepts would make the build possibilities way richer, and would be way less frustrating having to choose between playing weaponry you're not specialized into or weaponry you dislike. 

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13 minutes ago, 0ldman said:

 

Admin tool "Hammer Gottes" verbraucht Ausdauer ???

I think you're saying or asking if the Admin tool "Hammer of God" should use Stamina..? Or reporting that it -is- using stamina.. or both

 

I'm not playing a19. Maybe someone who is can check?

 

And didn't there used to be a German language sub-forum?

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5 minutes ago, FileMachete said:

I think you're saying or asking if the Admin tool "Hammer of God" should use Stamina..? Or reporting that it -is- using stamina.. or both

 

I'm not playing a19. Maybe someone who is can check?

 

And didn't there used to be a German language sub-forum?

even as a fellow german im not sure what he is trying to communicate :D

But yes, i think he is suprised that the Admin Tool "hammer of god uses Stamina and considers this as wrong.

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34th day ( hour long ) 

 

Havent had a bug, glitch etc. Running over 60fps the whole time. 

 

I hope nothing is nerfed once stable etc. For example if food/water and stamina is nerfed ill have to go back to b157. 

 

The perks and coffee etc are meaningful finally. Its not just level up , perk point into attacking perks etc. A19 is perfect imo. 

 

Thank you Pimps. 

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31 minutes ago, Guppys Fur said:

even as a fellow german im not sure what he is trying to communicate :D

But yes, i think he is suprised that the Admin Tool "hammer of god uses Stamina and considers this as wrong.

He can use god mode. No problem whatsoever.

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