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Alpha 19 Dev Diary


madmole

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4 hours ago, Snekser said:

who buys a stone shovel and deposits it in a working stiff tools crate(unopened/sealed) in their garage? asking for the fun>realistic topic, since the devs like to throw that a lot which i understand but, um.. i mean why not find these remnants of the dead survivors in actually realistic spots like trash, dropped backpacks, zombie loot(early game) and other things like that

 

Think the point is to have a progression stage now. Not talking about what we are used to doing but what the goal is moving forward. That would be cool except for the fact I spawn in and the first poi I come to store or house that has a working stiff tool crate within 10 min of game and I get iron tools. Then that progression system is out the window and no longer early game 10 min and done have med game tools. I get it what some are saying but no point in a progression system with it like that. When I see people say the first thing I do is find those stores so I can have iron tools are the ones wanting to rush early game. 

 

Maybe they can make it to where no stone tools spawn in them but at the same time no tools at all spawn in them until you reach that part in the progression. Only parts, frames, doors and such that normally spawn in them besides tools. Then you don't gotta worry about why would stone items be in a new unopened box. But based on the comments that some say that is the first thing they do to get iron tools will be here complaining that is sucks that no tools ever spawn in them until "x" day/ "x" level.

 

So really it is a no win for anyone really. Damn if you put stone tools in them and have a progression system, damn if don't have tools spawn in them until specific time, damn those that like a progression system but say the hell with them and give in and put iron tools back in them on day one. One way or the other not going to please everyone.

 

It comes down to it that the way they done it is the way for the progression system to work. So maybe wait until day/level whatever it is before opening them especially if you play no loot respawn.

Edited by crazywildfire (see edit history)
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46 minutes ago, Snekser said:

who buys a stone shovel and deposits it in a working stiff tools crate(unopened/sealed) in their garage? asking for the fun>realistic topic, since the devs like to throw that a lot which i understand but, um.. i mean why not find these remnants of the dead survivors in actually realistic spots like trash, dropped backpacks, zombie loot(early game) and other things like that

The box could contain only things like nails, tape, glue, polymers etc in the early progression. Spawning stone tools in containers feels actually unrealistic.

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Yes, it does.

Just like making really good stone tools within minutes of getting born into the game, guns with a range of maybe 100m, zombies, carrying 50000 tons worth of material, and so on.

 

Finding no tools in a tool store just isn't how our itemisation will work. =P

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C'mon gazz, finding hand made stone tools in a sealed crate is kinda dumb for both realism and gameplay.

 

...just remove the stone tools from the tables (the easy out) or remove the ability to infinitely repair tools (like you had in the past) so those iron/steel tools were only a temporary boon. 

 

Bonus, the latter would encourage looting /and/ increase excitement when finding more of the same.

Edited by Guppycur (see edit history)
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7 hours ago, Khalagar said:

 

Problem with this mentality is it's all the int tree has. So their main melee weapon is basically a bone shiv. They were already hitting level 10 by the end of a 3 hour play session and starting to get tier 2s like double barrel shotguns, iron and steel knuckles, baseball bats etc. Even if traders get nerfed to match loot in A20, you'll move past the Junk Sledge within a couple of days in game and then just throw it in a box or vendor it.

 

I dunno, I just don't see why people are so opposed to just, y'know, making it viable and having it scale to end game as you invest perks into it. The asset and dev work is already done, all they would have to do is just make sure it scales well with bonus damage and attack speed and stagger chance from the Tech Junkie skill so that at max perk rank it can actually have it's own niche

Oh please, stop over reacting. The sledge doesn't use ANY ammo, making it always useful. Its clearly not what it was when I was testing and using one a month ago, so we'll work on it until it feels right. We're not putting all the work in and then not have it balanced to where it feels useful. Worst case scenario you scrap it for robotic parts which are needed to make drones and junk turrets.

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12 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

C'mon gazz, finding hand made stone tools in a sealed crate is kinda dumb for both realism and gameplay.

 

...just remove the stone tools from the tables (the easy out) or remove the ability to infinitely repair tools (like you had in the past) so those iron/steel tools were only a temporary boon. 

 

Bonus, the latter would encourage looting /and/ increase excitement when finding more of the same.

Excuse me, but as far as I know Working Stiff Tools makes the best handmade tools in all the USA. They use the strongest granite heads and the strongest ecofriendly fiber to wrap'em up. Not that you can understand it yet, but a couple of lines of dialogue /lore  later and it's explained and all good.

 

Now, "Guppycur", on the other side, I don't find that name cool at all. Fix plz. It's kind of unrealistic ain' t it ? 😆

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5 hours ago, wolfbain5 said:

not to happy with the stone age part. watched as he opened a crate from working stiff to get a stone shovel. Can see the conversation now

 

"Hey guys, I found a sealed crate from a pre apoc manufacturer! it's gotta have something good... a Flinstone's shovel? WTF? this is what they sold in stores?"
 

doesnt make sense. I agree that finding stone age in bags and such, but sealed manufacturers crates? no. I hope that was a fluke.

By this looting logic you wouldn't be able to get anything cool in the game later on, like the custom welded apocalyptic battle axe, or the giant sledgehammer made from a dumbbell, nor 5 tons of concrete mix, etc. The crate could have been raided and repurposed... its a crate. You can't have it both ways and get cool stuff then complain about the bad stuff. The game is only about 5000x better now with the primitive stage we added. Sorry but the immersion police don't make good fun balanced games.

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6 minutes ago, requiemdios said:

May I suggest to the folks saying that certain game mechanics make the game unrealistic find another word. Its a zombie game. Maybe just say you don't like the game mechanic. 

Yeah, it is a zombie game, but I like some realistic things, like finding food in kitchens and parts in a car, you don't open a Messiah shotgun box expecting food you expect weapons, ammo or mods. The same way you can not  open a Working stiff sealed box and find stone tools, the suggestion of removing stone tools from this crates for early game don't sound too bad.

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I get why the stone age stuff are in boxes for gameplay balance but it still hurts my immersion a bit.  Probably because our loot containers are shiny sealed remnant boxes from the past...at least that's how I perceive them.

 

I'm sure I will get over it but it would be nice if it were done a different way. (I'm sure easier said then done)

 

A) stone weapons/tools moved to other more immersive loot containers (e.g. back packs, weapons bags, tool bag, etc.)

 

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5 hours ago, Gazz said:

You can mod the game so that store crates only drop steel tools.

I absolutely agree that iron/stone tools in such a loot container are highly unrealistic. (like it currently is in A18)

 

By using that mod you just have to accept that realistically there will only be one tier of items in the game. /shrug

Steel tools are completely unrealistic now though. All the top end guns are made from scrap parts and duct taped together. So finding those in a sealed box at a store doesn't make sense supposedly... but it does because gun stores deal in used/modded weapons, and anyone can take a crate and reuse it.

I don't think its unrealistic, you just have to be a landlord for a few months to see what people actually do IRL. I found 4 pallets of sealed wrapped with plastic dog food in the basement of a house I owned. Like the tenant literally put the pallet down there then carried all the dog food and stacked it nice and then wrapped it in plastic because there was no way in hell a loaded pallet would fit down those stairs. People re-use containers all the time. Maybe the Duke likes all the items organized and boxed up before it gets put in his warehouse so his bandits get things ready before loading the trucks, zombies come along... really people you just have to use your imagination, the apocalypse has probably been going on 5 years already when the player spawns.

5 hours ago, Khalagar said:

 

It's so bad it's a meme, even on the dev stream you could tell by Lathan and Rick's reactions they knew it was pretty much a waste of time to even try it. Even the full bow is only okayish. The bow is in a pretty weird spot. It competes against the Pistol for use in it's own tree, and loses badly. The only advantage the bow has is explosive ammo, but actual explosives from the perception tree are better. In fact, the hunting rifle from the perception tree is better than the crossbow too . . .

 

I do think bows need a bit of a TLC update, I think most players would rather have a level 3 pistol than a level 5 compound bow or compound crossbow, and that's a problem. I tried doing a crossbow build in A18 and even with perk investment and a level 5 compound crossbow, I literally couldn't find a use for it that my level 2 unperked hunting rifle didn't do 10 times better.

 

Compound bow is kinda where where the Wooden bow needs to be damage wise imo, and primitive bow is just bad, I can't think of a single situation where a primitive bow is worth building over just crafting 4-5 spears and throwing those instead

 

 

Bow does 3.5x sneak damage with no perks. You just have to know how to use it.

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37 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

C'mon gazz, finding hand made stone tools in a sealed crate is kinda dumb for both realism and gameplay.

 

...just remove the stone tools from the tables (the easy out) or remove the ability to infinitely repair tools (like you had in the past) so those iron/steel tools were only a temporary boon. 

 

Bonus, the latter would encourage looting /and/ increase excitement when finding more of the same.

That would encourage a min maxing type of stupid strategy guide game play... "Oh don't open that loot container yet wait until you are a higher level" kind of crap. Honestly stone tools of high quality are kind of nice to find.

If the entire world knee jerks over stone tools, we can do something about it. This is a first pass at getting an actual primitive stage in the game.

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Would be interesting to know what the actual timeline should be.

Canned food can survive 5 years. But a lot of buildings have damages that look way older, and some are very pristine.

 

Is there some time-since-the-apocalypse that you aim for in the design?

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42 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

C'mon gazz, finding hand made stone tools in a sealed crate is kinda dumb for both realism and gameplay.

 

...just remove the stone tools from the tables (the easy out) or remove the ability to infinitely repair tools (like you had in the past) so those iron/steel tools were only a temporary boon. 

 

Bonus, the latter would encourage looting /and/ increase excitement when finding more of the same.

lets just wait. you never know how it will go!

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15 minutes ago, madmole said:

Steel tools are completely unrealistic now though. All the top end guns are made from scrap parts and duct taped together. So finding those in a sealed box at a store doesn't make sense supposedly... but it does because gun stores deal in used/modded weapons, and anyone can take a crate and reuse it.

I don't think its unrealistic, you just have to be a landlord for a few months to see what people actually do IRL. I found 4 pallets of sealed wrapped with plastic dog food in the basement of a house I owned. Like the tenant literally put the pallet down there then carried all the dog food and stacked it nice and then wrapped it in plastic because there was no way in hell a loaded pallet would fit down those stairs. People re-use containers all the time. Maybe the Duke likes all the items organized and boxed up before it gets put in his warehouse so his bandits get things ready before loading the trucks, zombies come along... really people you just have to use your imagination, the apocalypse has probably been going on 5 years already when the player spawns.

Bow does 3.5x sneak damage with no perks. You just have to know how to use it.

It is what it is.  But it was just my first reaction to it.

 

The stoneage stuff looted do seem to be an upgrade to what the player currently has so its not all bad.  Will just need taking getting use to.  You could replaace the texture on all the branded sealed crates with something more worn/cobbled together and it might be enough to maintain the immersion.  Not sure the work is worth it or not, just sharing with you my first impressions of it and a possible solution...

 

At the end of the day its a minor detail and A19 is still so much awesome. :)

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)
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2 minutes ago, madmole said:

That would encourage a min maxing type of stupid strategy guide game play... "Oh don't open that loot container yet wait until you are a higher level" kind of crap. Honestly stone tools of high quality are kind of nice to find.

If the entire world knee jerks over stone tools, we can do something about it. This is a first pass at getting an actual primitive stage in the game.

i 101% support the stone age.

 

 

for me it was so easy to go from using stone axe to Iron pick and everything else.

 

and also i saw that you can get arrows from ammo piles, do you think one day we can find other arrows or even arrow heads in ammo piles, like fire arrows!

 

 

now i don't know about the other black powder weapons, ill have to think and imagine it! but at the same time, it is kinda odd that there is just a blunderbuss! not anyother

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9 minutes ago, madmole said:

That would encourage a min maxing type of stupid strategy guide game play... "Oh don't open that loot container yet wait until you are a higher level" kind of crap. Honestly stone tools of high quality are kind of nice to find.

If the entire world knee jerks over stone tools, we can do something about it. This is a first pass at getting an actual primitive stage in the game.

...but the game already encourages that by using leveled loot instead of danger based loot.  "Hey StompyNZ, you have the highest GS and perks in lucky looter and are wearing the goggles, eat that magic candy and open this crate for us".

 

It's already happening.  You /sound/ like you don't like/want it to happen, so is that a sign that y'all are possibly thinking of changing it?

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1 minute ago, Guppycur said:

...but the game already encourages that by using leveled loot instead of danger based loot.  "Hey StompyNZ, you have the highest GS and perks in lucky looter and are wearing the goggles, eat that magic candy and open this crate for us".

 

It's already happening.  You /sound/ like you don't like/want it to happen, so is that a sign that y'all are possibly thinking of changing it?

Anyone who's played for long enough already does the min/max strategy.  We all know what things we can do that make the game easier even if it's not realistic.  I prefer the danger strategy.  The reward should reflect the danger.  This is what game devs wrestle with all the time, balancing while players keep trying to find the shortest path to progressing.

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10 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

...but the game already encourages that by using leveled loot instead of danger based loot.  "Hey StompyNZ, you have the highest GS and perks in lucky looter and are wearing the goggles, eat that magic candy and open this crate for us".

 

It's already happening.  You /sound/ like you don't like/want it to happen, so is that a sign that y'all are possibly thinking of changing it?

I am afraid a change of that magnitude is probably too late at this stage in development even if they wanted to do it.  On a static map, they could sorta make certain biomes with harder difficulty with better loot but then they would need to rework all of the prefabs again and will need to rework their RWG generation as well.  Easier said the done probably.  Maybe for 7 days to die 2? *Shurgs*

 

There are probably other design issues with location based difficulty with open world maps as well.  In a linear closed world, its easy, you just dont allow the player to go the the higher difficulty location until they are close to being ready.  In MMORPG they actually tell the player what level range a zone or instance is for usability so players dont waste their time and get frustrated/wrecked.

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)
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Why not just change the nameplate on the crates then? 

idk, something like "Expedition Supplies", or "White River Exploratory Supplies", painted over top of the "Working Stiff" stencil?

At least then it tells the player "hey, you might not get the best loot in this crate, but it might be better than what you have".

Like it was from a past looting expedition that failed. Put a little note in it, something like: Supplies for expedition "blah blah".

 

Then as the players GS goes up, the new buildings you enter, have some of the original "Working Stiff" crates inside. 

    

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Speaking of stone shovels.. anyone else noticed the player was using the shovel sideways? he's not gonna pick much dirt that way... x)
also, the stone axe handle is rotated backwards. the curve shoud be pointing to the sharp side, not to the user. 

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