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I still remember D&D with the the 3(?) booklets including the "Chain mail" booklet in the Box set.  :)

The first time my brother played, he wanted a "guard Pig"(!),  I asked why not a guard dog and he mentioned a pigs better sense of smell and intelligence.  He also wanted a hammock and slept in the trees.  He liked Min-maxing.

 

**A throw of three dies determined the value of each of the player six stats, not any points unless your talking about a computer game.

 

Nevertheless, I think most people will tire of a game if its too easy, and ether:

1) Make the game harder with mods or modify their play style as you do.

2) Stop playing until something changes.

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9 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

I still remember D&D with the the 3(?) booklets including the "Chain mail" booklet in the Box set.  :)

The first time my brother played, he wanted a "guard Pig"(!),  I asked why not a guard dog and he mentioned a pigs better sense of smell and intelligence.  He also wanted a hammock and slept in the trees.  He liked Min-maxing.

 

**A throw of three dies determined the value of each of the player six stats, not any points unless your talking about a computer game.

 

Nevertheless, I think most people will tire of a game if its too easy, and ether:

1) Make the game harder with mods or modify their play style as you do.

2) Stop playing until something changes.

Guard Pigs and hammocks are both things I approve of. :)

Yeah, I know D&D used dice for character creation, but it's the trademark that non roleplayers all know that gives them the idea of the right sort of game in general. That's why I said, or tried to say, that I was talking about other games in that general style.

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3 minutes ago, strask said:

Guard Pigs and hammocks are both things I approve of. :)

Yeah, I know D&D used dice for character creation, but it's the trademark that non roleplayers all know that gives them the idea of the right sort of game in general. That's why I said, or tried to say, that I was talking about other games in that general style.

Unless you play PvP their are no real victims to Min-Max'ing (however anyone defines it).  If the player is having fun (or not!) that's their deal. 

 

I like exploring as many aspects of a game as I can and still have fun.  Min-maxing is usually ONE of my play styles, because its interesting to me.

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1 minute ago, Aldranon said:

Unless you play PvP their are no real victims to Min-Max'ing (however anyone defines it).  If the player is having fun (or not!) that's their deal.

Game design is one of the victims if you listen to them too much. =P

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1 minute ago, Gazz said:

Game design is one of the victims if you listen to them too much. =P

If you listen how "easy" the game is and shift the whole games difficult up, yeah, bad for most if not all.

 

I'm all for options, both extremes: DeathWorld(the book) and Stardew(the game) are things I enjoy for completely different reasons.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, strask said:

Guard Pigs and hammocks are both things I approve of. :)

Yeah, I know D&D used dice for character creation, but it's the trademark that non roleplayers all know that gives them the idea of the right sort of game in general. That's why I said, or tried to say, that I was talking about other games in that general style.

Original D&D sure, but then came AD&D 1, then 2,3,... I don't know where it started, but most versions had Point-buy as an alternative. So instead of rolling dice for stats the dungeon master would allow you to pick the attributes of your character. You could buy a high stat in one attribute by lowering others. Which isn't necessarily wrong, but if every fighter has int and charisma at the lowest value, where's the role play?

 

 

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, meganoth said:

but if every fighter has int and charisma at the lowest value, where's the role play?

It is partially destroyed. So, the game has less roleplay-fu, but more puzzle-fu, and that is appropriate to my mood on certain occasions. But certainly not all the time.

Edited by strask (see edit history)

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52 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

No, it's Mad Max's half-born brother. :D

half born? you mean the other half is still stuck up the erm . . . in her . . . nevermind. let's move on! 🤣🤣

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Original D&D sure, but then came AD&D 1, then 2,3,... I don't know where it started, but most versions had Point-buy as an alternative. So instead of rolling dice for stats the dungeon master would allow you to pick the attributes of your character. You could buy a high stat in one attribute by lowering others. Which isn't necessarily wrong, but if every fighter has int and charisma at the lowest value, where's the role play?

I've never cared for point buy (As a 40+ year vet of Pen and Paper RPGs) ...It may be politically incorrect, but people just aren't balanced in the real world. You get the guy that played the Mountain in GoT that can shot put a washing machine and Geena Davis who can remember exact details of every day of her life (and is in Mensa), and then you have people like myself. :D

24 minutes ago, strask said:

It is partially destroyed. So, the game has less roleplay-fu, but more numbercrunch-fu, and that is appropriate to my mood on certain occasions. But certainly not all the time.

The Roleplay is in the HOW of the stats... C'mon. Be Creative!

 

Low Charisma? Maybe you smell bad, Or Talk with in annoying pitch, OR are too gruff, OR Maybe have a habit of blurting out things that are better unsaid.

 

Low Dexterity? maybe you are clumsy, OR you had suffered an injury that makes you move stiffly, OR maybe there is even the effect of a curse which tends to make you dodge INTO attacks instead of away.

Edited by Sigil_Thane (see edit history)

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1 hour ago, Sigil_Thane said:

I've never cared for point buy (As a 40+ year vet of Pen and Paper RPGs) ...It may be politically incorrect, but people just aren't balanced in the real world. You get the guy that played the Mountain in GoT that can shot put a washing machine and Geena Davis who can remember exact details of every day of her life (and is in Mensa), and then you have people like myself. :D

The Roleplay is in the HOW of the stats... C'mon. Be Creative!

 

Low Charisma? Maybe you smell bad, Or Talk with in annoying pitch, OR are too gruff, OR Maybe have a habit of blurting out things that are better unsaid.

 

Low Dexterity? maybe you are clumsy, OR you had suffered an injury that makes you move stiffly, OR maybe there is even the effect of a curse which tends to make you dodge INTO attacks instead of away.

There is no problem to play a fighter with low int and charisma, in fact there is no problem in playing any attribute distribution. But if a player always plays characters at the limits of the attribute system it heavily points to him not thinking of a character first and selecting appropriate attributes to fit that character but min/maxing an ideal class character and then inventing a fitting role. Often a min/maxer fighter will still make intelligent observations or choices instead of really roleplaying such an extraodinarilly dumb character.

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Often a min/maxer fighter will still make intelligent observations or choices instead of really roleplaying such an extraodinarilly dumb character.

Neebs Gaming?  <hehe those guys are funn-ee!>

 

& I can't find that early old vid clip of DnD player who keeps yelling asking if he can cast "???" while th dungeon master gets madder and madder (what was it..dangit won't come to me, bah.)

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52 minutes ago, meganoth said:

There is no problem to play a fighter with low int and charisma, in fact there is no problem in playing any attribute distribution. But if a player always plays characters at the limits of the attribute system it heavily points to him not thinking of a character first and selecting appropriate attributes to fit that character but min/maxing an ideal class character and then inventing a fitting role. Often a min/maxer fighter will still make intelligent observations or choices instead of really roleplaying such an extraodinarilly dumb character.

 

 

 

I have a brawler in a tabletop game with low Int and Cha, and part of her backstory is that she was dropped on her head in infancy.  Repeatedly.  Her mom was a klutz.  She's a total sweetheart, loves to help people, and is a hugger.  She frequently greets people with a hug.  And she has decent Wis and points in Sense Motive.  I often start encounters by saying, "She looks at *whatever NPC* and senses their motives *Rolls Sense Motive check*.  Do they look like they need a hug?"   

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Other positive examples are in a few computer RPGs that actually provide dumb dialog choices if you play a low-int character. At least Arcanum and Fallout 2 were often cited as games you really should replay as a brute.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, FileMachete said:

& I can't find that early old vid clip of DnD player who keeps yelling asking if he can cast "???" while th dungeon master gets madder and madder (what was it..dangit won't come to me, bah.)

Magic Missile...

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all I see are vast fields of Golden Rod !  ...  maybe I need help too... who'r you seeing Adam?  :classic_laugh:

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1 minute ago, FileMachete said:

all I see are vast fields of Golden Rod !  ...  maybe I need help too... who'r you seeing Adam?  :classic_laugh:

i just eat the glowing mushrooms under my deck and i feel better!

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On 6/11/2020 at 2:46 AM, DaVegaNL said:

June 26th is my birthday, I appreciate the gesture :)

Mine is the 24th and I'm supposed to be in that days stream.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/11/2020 at 5:11 AM, beHypE said:

Great news ! Roland, can you give us some broad figures about how the super early experimental went? Number of people who opted-in, number of new bugs that it helped fixing, stuff like that. I guess the stability of 19.0 should be way better than all previous x.0 versions, for a lot more people have already tested it. 

More testers just tend to find the same bugs multiple times. Once in a while you catch something new.

On 6/11/2020 at 8:54 AM, Perlin_Worm said:

What a horrible task it must be to dig through developers Github and write up release notes. Do you assign it to the new guy?

Not as bad as that. All devs add non trivial changes to the release notes doc when they commit to SVN. It then just needs editing in the end.

Edited by faatal (see edit history)

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13 hours ago, Gazz said:

Some players strongly feel that they must have XYZ right when they want to but that's what perks are for.

They then go around projecting their own preferences on everyone else. =P

 

I mean, I was like 2% joking with the "mandatory tier" perks thing, but not really. You can of course play without them, but some perks are just a bajillion times better than others, it's going to happen with any game.

 

You can play without Miner 69 and Mother Lode for example, but it's going to be drastically more tedious to do basically anything. You'll have to buy literally everything from traders and rely purely on their RNG to see if they even have anything you need, and won't be able to just tear through the walls and safes in a PoI.

 

It's totally doable, just pointlessly tedious when you can just perk into two of the best perks in the game that will increase QoL drastically

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