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Alpha 19 Dev Diary


madmole

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14 hours ago, madmole said:

Probably when we hired more testers. I think even 4-5 people can chew through all the meat in no time, these guys are like rambo savages. I hopped on one time half an hour after they got started and every nest and POI was picked clean and not a single animal seen by me.

Mr. Mole i cant stress enough how thankful i am that you guys now look into MP Balance and Gameplay :)

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39 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

Exactly my sentiment. If hunger and thirst, the basics of a survival game, are such low concern mechanics that don't present any challenge, it almost seems pointless to have them.

If I'm being completely honest, in general I think hunger is the most tedious and boring system of any and every game. I have played A LOT of videogames, each and every one which has hunger in some form has never fulfilled my expectations. What are my expectations? Thrill and fun of having to eat and then overcome it almost completely in a way that doesn't make it repetitive and instead generates emergent gameplay in the form of different not-too-overbearing hurdles.

 

7dtd' s is going on the path of perfection by adding and deleting redundant stuff and is shaping up to be my favourite hunger/medicine management system . I must say I like it in a18. Poisoning was boring and unrewarding in my opinion.

 

The system still has some polishing and refining left, but I like what I read. I only hope for the food to remain relevant to the "survival" description while remaining fun.

 

Can we have some tales about the current hunger/medicine system? Roland, MM?

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20 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

If I'm being completely honest, in general I think hunger is the most tedious and boring system of any and every game. I have played A LOT of videogames, each and every one which has hunger in some form has never fulfilled my expectations. What are my expectations? Thrill and fun of having to eat and then overcome it almost completely in a way that doesn't make it repetitive and instead generates emergent gameplay in the form of different not-too-overbearing hurdles.

 

7dtd' s is going on the path of perfection by adding and deleting redundant stuff and is shaping up to be my favourite hunger/medicine management system . I must say I like it in a18. Poisoning was boring and unrewarding in my opinion.

 

The system still has some polishing and refining left, but I like what I read. I only hope for the food to remain relevant to the "survival" description while remaining fun.

 

Can we have some tales about the current hunger/medicine system? Roland, MM?

It all depends on how the mechanic is developed. It's true that many survival games don't know how to make the mechanic fun, but I've played some which ARE fun and also immersive.

 

Take The Forest, for example. The hunger mechanic is fun and immersive, because you're stranded in a mysterious island, and you need to explore, hunt and gather provisions in order to survive. It's really thrilling when your character starts to get hungry, and you know you're gonna have to prepare and venture into the unknown dangers of the forest to avoid starvation.

 

Sometimes, you find yourself in situations that force you to kill the crazy cannibals in the island, and eat them, because you don't have food. It's crazy, it's creepy, and that's what makes it fun.

 

So again, it depends on how it's handled. In 7dtd, food poisoning was there to have some level of balancing over food items. It was there to give players a reason to craft a campfire, cook their meals and get better quality food, preventing players from just eating garbage and rotten food. Now that it's gone, we'll just have to see what the devs do to balance out food.

20 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

Can we have some tales about the current hunger/medicine system? Roland, MM?

+1

Edited by Xtrakicking (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Xtrakicking said:

Exactly my sentiment. If hunger and thirst, the basics of a survival game, are such low concern mechanics that don't present any challenge, it almost seems pointless to have them.

By that logic, most survival games should remove food....

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2 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

By that logic, most survival games should remove food....

Well, I agree that there are very crappy survival games out there, with hunger and thirst mechanics that don't present any challenge. I'm not saying removing food would solve their problems, I'm saying that it would make no big difference, since their hunger mechanics are crap anyways.

 

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4 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

Well, I agree that there are very crappy survival games out there, with hunger and thirst mechanics that don't present any challenge. I'm not saying removing food would solve their problems, I'm saying that it would make no big difference, since their hunger mechanics are crap anyways.

 

Is it wrong for the devs to try and find a food system that is different but fun?  Let's give it a try and see if it is better or worse then what came before.

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Just now, Laz Man said:

Is it wrong for the devs to try and find a food system that is different but fun?  Let's give it a try and see if it is better or worse then what came before.

Absolutely not. We're still in alpha, so there's still time for things to be fleshed out and balanced. I do think expressing one's concern is important, especially when the concern is shared by more than one person. That fact is, in the end, one of the reasons why the devs try different things.

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1 hour ago, Xtrakicking said:

It all depends on how the mechanic is developed. It's true that many survival games don't know how to make the mechanic fun, but I've played some which ARE fun and also immersive.

 

Take The Forest, for example. The hunger mechanic is fun and immersive, because you're stranded in a mysterious island, and you need to explore, hunt and gather provisions in order to survive. It's really thrilling when your character starts to get hungry, and you know you're gonna have to prepare and venture into the unknown dangers of the forest to avoid starvation.

 

Sometimes, you find yourself in situations that force you to kill the crazy cannibals in the island, and eat them, because you don't have food. It's crazy, it's creepy, and that's what makes it fun.

Hmm... maybe we played different Forest games lol.

 

In the forest food is as sure as death, once you learn how to hunt birds/squirrels or fish you're set, they're EVERYWHERE.

The only time you find yourself in the situation you describe is if you didn't plan ahead.

 

The Forest food/hunting mechanics is surely immersive, but I wouldn't call it "fun", it's just the same repetitive stuff over and over again.

Maybe it's fun the few first times while you're getting the hang of it, but after that is as bland as in every other survival game.

 

7D2D however, has the potential to keep the food management gameplay (at least) interesting.

 

The problem I see is that whatever food game-mechanics they choose, it must be very difficult to find the perfect formula to balance the game both for SP and MP.

IMO TFP should focus on SP food balance first, since from what I gather it's the majority of players out there (it's just an educated guess).

Later they can still add some MP settings to help everyone balance food for themselves by customizing their own servers. It's a win-win.

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Now sit right back and you’ll hear a tale—the tale of a fateful sip. 

 

That started from this murky lake. There was no tiny ship....

 

 

I dunno... I can’t think of anything super exciting about this aspect of the game. Eating canned food and charred meat is going to result in you having to eat frequently. Eating prepared food is going to result in you staying  energized longer.  Stuff stacks so if you have dysentery, a sprained arm, and deep lacerations then your max health is going to be really low. You can risk going on with your activities and wait for those effects to heal over time or you can abandon your plans and work on getting healed up. It seems to work well.

 

 

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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5 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

IMO TFP should focus on SP food balance first, since from what I gather it's the majority of players out there (it's just an educated guess).

Later they can still add some MP settings to help everyone balance food for themselves by customizing their own servers. It's a win-win.

Exactly.  It seems the ENTIRE GAME is balanced around SP and small group co-op -- except for food, which is balanced for a higher player count, competing for food. 

 

Edited by SnowDog1942 (see edit history)
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20 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Hmm... maybe we played different Forest games lol.

 

In the forest food is as sure as death, once you learn how to hunt birds/squirrels or fish you're set, they're EVERYWHERE.

The only time you find yourself in the situation you describe is if you didn't plan ahead.

 

The Forest food/hunting mechanics is surely immersive, but I wouldn't call it "fun", it's just the same repetitive stuff over and over again.

Maybe it's fun the few first times while you're getting the hang of it, but after that is as bland as in every other survival game.

 

7D2D however, has the potential to keep the food management gameplay (at least) interesting.

 

The problem I see is that whatever food game-mechanics they choose, it must be very difficult to find the perfect formula to balance the game both for SP and MP.

IMO TFP should focus on SP food balance first, since from what I gather it's the majority of players out there (it's just an educated guess).

Later they can still add some MP settings to help everyone balance food for themselves by customizing their own servers. It's a win-win.

Well, guess what Forest has that 7dtd doesn't. That's right, food spoilage. You can try and hunt as many animals as you want, but:

 

1. You can only carry so much meat in your inventory.

2. That meat spoils if you don't cook and eat it.

 

What does this mean in terms of gameplay? That if you aren't careful and decide to explore a cave, for example, you will starve to death... Or kill and eat some cannibals.

 

So, The Forest presents a survival system that is actually threatening to the player. Whether if you find the end result fun or not, I think that's the minimum a hunger/thirst system should present, don't you think? Otherwise, what's the use of it? You can starve to death or die of thirst if you aren't careful. That's just not the case in 7dtd Singleplayer, considering the abundance of food that you can hold on to forever, and the little consequences of eating bad food.

 

But yeah, I think the point has been made. Let's hope the hunger and thirst aspects get balanced.

Edited by Xtrakicking (see edit history)
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21 hours ago, Roland said:


pfft....I could announce the A19 Pre-release Stream Event and get 30+ turds in no time. 
 

I could follow that up saying that the streamers get to play first because they DESERVE it more and easily cruise past 100 turds....

 

(maybe even a couple of death threats)😉

 

Well you can sit there and beat your chest, but until you do something I'M the record holder.  Hell, you only got 2 turds from this post!

Edited by SnowDog1942 (see edit history)
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12 hours ago, Guppycur said:

The point is, why have food in the game at all if it's such a trivial post script that's over by day 2? 

 

Just remove it entirely, since all it sounds like it's good for is a plus with no (in practice) negatives.  Eat bad food, lose some hp.  Eat some good food, get it back.  It's a wash. 

So just delete it because we're not doing an overly complicated clunky survival simulation? Yeah lets make players get all their macros otherwise suffer vitamin deficiencies, that is so cool 😛 Food was always meant to be an easy milestone for a new player to get past. You have to give new players some victories to get them into the game. The horde is coming. You still have to take some time out of your day to eat/loot. I run out of food if I get OCD building/mining for too long so it does force you out of your mole hole.

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2 minutes ago, madmole said:

So just delete it because we're not doing an overly complicated clunky survival simulation? Yeah lets make players get all their macros otherwise suffer vitamin deficiencies

i swear if there going to be a vitamin deficiency like Atlas. im going to fight everyone!

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6 minutes ago, madmole said:

So just delete it because we're not doing an overly complicated clunky survival simulation? Yeah lets make players get all their macros otherwise suffer vitamin deficiencies, that is so cool 😛 Food was always meant to be an easy milestone for a new player to get past. You have to give new players some victories to get them into the game. The horde is coming. You still have to take some time out of your day to eat/loot. I run out of food if I get OCD building/mining for too long so it does force you out of your mole hole.

You usually make things look as if anything other than what you have is "overly complicated". Maybe the problem is that the system is overly simplified, which is not a good idea either.

 

Would you say the new ISS is overly complicated? I mean, you have different types of damage conditions and injuries that are taken care of by different types of cures and solutions. I don't see why doing something similar with food is suddenly a chore, over complicated or not fun.

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52 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

Well, guess what Forest has that 7dtd doesn't. That's right, food spoilage. You can try and hunt as many animals as you want, but:

 

1. You can only carry so much meat in your inventory.

2. That meat spoils if you don't cook and eat it.

 

What does this mean in terms of gameplay? That if you aren't careful and decide to explore a cave, for example, you will starve to death... Or kill and eat some cannibals.

 

So, The Forest presents a survival system that is actually threatening to the player. Whether if you find the end result fun or not, I think that's the minimum a hunger/thirst system should present, don't you think? Otherwise, what's the use of it? You can starve to death or die of thirst if you aren't careful. That's just not the case in 7dtd Singleplayer, considering the abundance of food that you can hold on to forever, and the little consequences of eating bad food.

 

But yeah, I think the point has been made. Let's hope the hunger and thirst aspects get balanced.

 

I didn't play The Forest but it seems dried meat does not get spoiled. So experienced players build a drying rack and put any meat they don't eat immediately on that rack after returning to their base. So provided you get meat easily and building one or two drying racks isn't a problem, it seems food is solved and food spoilage overcome in The Forest too by following a simple repetitious routine. Or am I missing something?

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

You usually make things look as if anything other than what you have is "overly complicated". Maybe the problem is that the system is overly simplified, which is not a good idea either.

 

Would you say the new ISS is overly complicated? I mean, you have different types of damage conditions and injuries that are taken care of by different types of cures and solutions. I don't see why doing something similar with food is suddenly a chore, over complicated or not fun.

He did say for NEW players. There is alot to learn starting out, and hunger is very Important starting out.

 

If I died pretty quick when started play first time, would be challeng for me but maybe not other people. Food is fine for me. I want bandits done then gold.

 

I'm more interested in them starting there next game to see if its worth thousands of hour, like I have gotten in this one so far.

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1 minute ago, meganoth said:

 

I didn't play The Forest but it seems dried meat does not get spoiled. So experienced players build a drying rack and put any meat they don't eat immediately on that rack after returning to their base. So provided you get meat easily and building one or two drying racks isn't a problem, it seems food is solved and food spoilage overcome in The Forest too by following a simple repetitious routine. Or am I missing something?

 

 

i don't know about the forest in terms of dried meat but in real life. it can spoil (almost everything can spoil, THANKS Captain obvious!) 

but if a system like this would come to 7DTD i think a bin or a "makeshift fridge/dryer" it could be a fridge with some wood, a fire pit on the bottom, and some scrap metal. you just need wood and you can put your meat *snickering*... in the bin and it can keep it fresh. 

 

 

but the thing i want most is a stove of some kinda, i don't care who you are but cooking on a campfire is HARD!

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10 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

I didn't play The Forest but it seems dried meat does not get spoiled. So experienced players build a drying rack and put any meat they don't eat immediately on that rack after returning to their base. So provided you get meat easily and building one or two drying racks isn't a problem, it seems food is solved and food spoilage overcome in The Forest too by following a simple repetitious routine. Or am I missing something?

 

 

I didnt play it much, but starting out before you have protections up the locales always go for drying racks. Especially when your busy fight another local.

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3 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

i don't know about the forest in terms of dried meat but in real life. it can spoil (almost everything can spoil, THANKS Captain obvious!) 

but if a system like this would come to 7DTD i think a bin or a "makeshift fridge/dryer" it could be a fridge with some wood, a fire pit on the bottom, and some scrap metal. you just need wood and you can put your meat *snickering*... in the bin and it can keep it fresh. 

 

 

but the thing i want most is a stove of some kinda, i don't care who you are but cooking on a campfire is HARD!

 

I don't really care if my meat storage box is called fridge or crate, I will manage 😀 Not sure a fire pit under the fridge makes the fridge really work better

 

We probably want the same thing here: An electrical stove so we don't need to micro-manage wood to put into the campfire. Right?

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11 minutes ago, Dethar said:

I didnt play it much, but starting out before you have protections up the locales always go for drying racks. Especially when your busy fight another local.

This. It's a cannibal magnet, so there is consequence to using it.

 

I'm not saying The Forest's hunger system is the most glorious and perfect system the gaming industry has ever seen, nor that it can't be overcome during late gameplay, but I do think it's fun, balanced, not overly complicated, and poses a threat to the player, which is why I'm using it as an example.

Edited by Xtrakicking (see edit history)
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2 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

I don't really care if my meat storage box is called fridge or crate, I will manage 😀 Not sure a fire pit under the fridge makes the fridge really work better

 

We probably want the same thing here: An electrical stove so we don't need to micro-manage wood to put into the campfire. Right?

no the fire would just be there to smoke it. not like a bond fire. but a Box would work too :D

 

and Madmole said something about a electrical stove (he may have changed his mind though who knows) but how would that work? would it take power when you turn it on? it may be easy to do i don't know! i barely know how to upgrade the XML files!

 

personally i would think a stove that used a fire/fuel would be easier to make and program but i don't know 

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8 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

no the fire would just be there to smoke it. not like a bond fire. but a Box would work too :D

 

and Madmole said something about a electrical stove (he may have changed his mind though who knows) but how would that work? would it take power when you turn it on? it may be easy to do i don't know! i barely know how to upgrade the XML files!

 

personally i would think a stove that used a fire/fuel would be easier to make and program but i don't know 

Yes, it would take power. I imagine if you combine some parts of the xml of the workbench (which operates without wood) and the blade trap you are nearly finished. All left to do is to kick Gazz so he makes a new GUI for that 😀

 

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