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Alpha 19 Dev Diary


madmole

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47 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

175 pieces of meat are just 35 charred meat rations which would last you maybe 2-3 days of active gameplay. I don't see your point. Horde night is at day 7, so you better kill  14-20 animals for some 350 meat at the very least for sustained and rewarding survival. Breaking news, 15 deers are hard to find in 7 days. If just 1 of them is a rabbit, a snake, a chicken or a coyote, you probably won't make it. So if you

don't expend a single point in Master Cheff or Iron Gut you will be in trouble.

 

Do you need a simplified version of the "meat" thingy? Maybe we shall call it chunks of meat and asume that we eat a lot? Or maybe we shall call them " meat snacks" and wrap them up in plastic inside a bunker so you can find the game more realistic?

...that's just the meats.  The plethora of eggs and canned food means a hell of a lot more than just "2-3" days, and if you REALLY think about it, you said it yourself... I collected at *minimum*, "2-3 days" of food in the daytime hours of day 1.  You still don't see the point?

 

Food is not, and never has been, problematic in this game.  Ever.

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1 hour ago, Xtrakicking said:

Additionaly, if it's true that no matter what you do, players will overcome the problem eventually, it would at least help to not make it even easier to overcome early game.

Except it isn't easy to overcome. We have people starving to death or feeling demoralized running around with no stamina from starvation. You obviously play SP where it is easy. Its quite hard in MP with a lot of people on the server looting and killing all the animals.

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25 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

When I play single player I don't have any problem with food either. When you start to add players into the equation it gets exponentially hard if you don't perk straight into those perks. I noticed with just 1 partner. I played with 4 friends a couple of months ago and it was hell the first few days . Lots of close calls, constant starving. We just play mixed style some questing, some building, some everything.

 

Edit: Just remember that those 175 meat won' t last 7 days and you will not find as much the next 7 days until animals respawn in your area. If you don't play extreme nomadic style you will perish. Food is not that easy to find. It sure is a bit more than enough for single player though.

With next to no biome spawns, wandering the terrain hitting the new chunks getting the new spawns is effortless.  Remember, TFP removed 99% of the dangers into houses with the sleeper system, and the other "dangers" are meal delivery systems (bring me those wolves, boars and bears!). 

 

...also, you may want to get your team coordinated, we are MORE flush with food during MP sessions, because Gam insists on farming. 😃

3 minutes ago, Roland said:

A20 or beyond. The coding for three levels of radiation is already in the game but hasn’t been activated yet. But it won’t be in A19. 

I hope that cvar bug (where cvar's don't get adjusted properly when dragging clothing off vs clicking clothing off) gets fixed, so we can take advantage of the green and blue zones though...

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41 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

Day 1, my friend, and if it lasts 2-3 days, just imagine later on how little food matters.

 

The problem, as Guppy said, is that there aren't any consequences nor negatives at all. Rotten food takes away a bit of health. Big deal, pop a painkiller and live off of rotten food as well. There's no sense of satisfaction in filling the hunger bar if the threat of actually starving to death is non existent.

 

I can't speak for others, but I can speak for myself, and so far I have never spent a point in none of those skills. There's no need to, food is abundant. I'd rather save the points for when I reach the very expensive last levels of the int build.

 

If Iron Gut isn't really necessary now, with the vomiting mechanic, just imagine if there's no consequence of eating bad quality food anymore.

Its really hard to judge until we play it and see how it actually feels.  Ultimately, the game is about not dying, and if eating bad food reduces your HP, its not much different from getting poisoned by food.  At the end of the day, your general health is impacted by the decision to eat bad food.  If it doesn't feel immersive enough, perhaps something can be done using the new criticals system...That is probably the way I would go....

 

Once again, will have to see how it feels first before I can comment further.

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47 minutes ago, madmole said:

Except it isn't easy to overcome. We have people starving to death or feeling demoralized running around with no stamina from starvation. You obviously play SP where it is easy. Its quite hard in MP with a lot of people on the server looting and killing all the animals.

thats why i kinda tone down my loot settings so it's harder to find food for myself, Why don't i play on servers? im toxic and get pissed off at people to easily, if i mess something up in singleplayer i know its my Fault! 

 

no wonder i have no friends 

 

 

ALSO hows the Unfrozen Lumberjack

1 hour ago, SnowDog1942 said:

17 Turds!! -- Including one from the Boss!.

 

What do I win!!!???   a mug?? a T-shirt?

 

another turd.

Edited by Adam the Waster (see edit history)
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6 minutes ago, madmole said:

Remember the vending machines have mostly candy in them now so canned foods are much less available than in A18.

I've never used them, to be honest.  Yes, canned goods certainly do become less available on a server, but there's still plenty to eat.  Hell now a days I can eat rotton meat, and it sounds like even that is going to have less of a detriment in a19, and that concerns me. 

 

But, these are balance things; no, I don't expect you to come up with a spoilage system, but it would be nice to have *something* that makes food hard(er).

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42 minutes ago, madmole said:

Why would you need to farm to survive if you are a looter shooter shopper? Farms are for home bodies or dedicated team support guy. We'll probably add a penalty to raw meat yet.

The point is that there are mechanics in the game that are more of a burden than something rewarding. Why would I spend all the time and resources one needs to get a farm going if every food in the game is perfectly edible and bears no consequence? I'd much rather get a bunch of raw meat and eat it straight than spend days gathering rotten meat and seeds to get a farm and then spend time stacking up crops to then cook a meal. You see the issue? Might as well eat the rotten meat than use it to farm.

40 minutes ago, madmole said:

Except it isn't easy to overcome. We have people starving to death or feeling demoralized running around with no stamina from starvation. You obviously play SP where it is easy. Its quite hard in MP with a lot of people on the server looting and killing all the animals.

Yes, indeed I play mostly SP. I understand that the system needs to be balanced for both playstyles, but with these changes the MP people will be starving less while in SP there will be people who will stop bothering with food altogether.

Edited by Xtrakicking (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, SnowDog1942 said:

17 Turds!! -- Including one from the Boss!.

 

What do I win!!!???   a mug?? a T-shirt?


pfft....I could announce the A19 Pre-release Stream Event and get 30+ turds in no time. 
 

I could follow that up saying that the streamers get to play first because they DESERVE it more and easily cruise past 100 turds....

 

(maybe even a couple of death threats)😉

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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Something to think about with the current food poisoning system.  Pop a vitamin and eat raw food, and sham sandwiches to victory.  Something had to change, lets see how this next change feels.  Food spoilage aside, lets see if we get something better with this change.

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)
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$0.02   i hope TFP  makes game design decisions based on folks playing in a "survivor state-of-mind"  like role playing. some of the recent posts seem to set aside that type of thinking in favor of " how can i game the game" .

as Laz Man said, we'll know when we play

Edited by lug (see edit history)
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Just cook your food longer and it becomes much harder!

 

There should be some negatives and real consequences for eating certain things like raw meat and definitely some massive consequences for eating rotting meat...

Even in games like Conan Exiles which has food spoilage… it quickly becomes a non issue as you have so much of it...Same as other survival games I have played...

Spoilage sounds good , but I would rather have penalties and consequences of eating problematic food over it any day...

Edited by Demonoid74 (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Guppycur said:

I've never used them, to be honest.  Yes, canned goods certainly do become less available on a server, but there's still plenty to eat.  Hell now a days I can eat rotton meat, and it sounds like even that is going to have less of a detriment in a19, and that concerns me. 

 

But, these are balance things; no, I don't expect you to come up with a spoilage system, but it would be nice to have *something* that makes food hard(er).

Rotting flesh and raw meat lower your health and can cause dysentery which shafts your stamina for a bit. Still balancing stuff but I think it will be fine. I'm looking forward to the max stamina boost good foods give so I can mine longer without gassing out.

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8 minutes ago, Demonoid74 said:

Just cook your food longer and it becomes much harder!

 

There should be some negatives and real consequences for eating certain things like raw meat and definitely some massive consequences for eating rotting meat...

Even in games like Conan Exiles which has food spoilage… it quickly becomes a non issue as you have so much of it...Same as other survival games I have played...

Spoilage sounds good , but I would rather have penalties and consequences of eating problematic food over it any day...

100% agreed. I'd give you a like, but I ran out. I might take a turd away from Snow... 🤔

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TFP can't make the game so that everyone is happy. It is impossible.

 

For experienced players, it is easy to maintain food with current system, or with ANY system. We have years of playing the game. There is not a system TFP can bring in, that we won't figure out in no time and find a way to cope with it. 

 

If TFP would try and make things difficult for us, they would make it impossible for everyone that is just starting to play the game, and they will soon have no new customers. TFP probably have a nice big statistic of what people complain most about. At very least they have the data. 

 

There is a simple solution to this. Enjoy the game as TFP see fit to make it, as they look at the big picture. We that want more challenges, we can mod it in. The current discussions about food spoiling is just going around in circles, and we been through it all before. I say, let us play the game, see how the system works, and if our personal requirements is not met, mod it  in. 

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14 hours ago, Roland said:

It isn't a design flaw. It is a design philosophy different than what you personally prefer. There are those who want to be able to get everything and be the same super god every time they play (or maybe they only play once). There are others who want tough choices and to play a character who has strengths in a few areas and then perhaps play through again and make different choices. 

 

The current design supports multiple playthroughs where you choose a smaller set of perks to emphasize the strengths of different kinds of heros. There is nothing flawed about that. Some people will like it and some won't. Whatever the developers decide ultimately to do for the final version (keep attributes vs cut attribrutes) people of the opposite persuasion will need to mod it the way they want it.

 

I am 99% sure you better start getting used to the idea of modding out the attributes if that is what you want because Madmole has called this perk system the final version a number of times.

 

Sidenote: You could simply double or triple the number of skillpoints you get for leveling up. More skillpoints would allow you to pay the high attribute costs easier and purchase perks across more of the trees if that is what you want.

Not preferable, but... A feasible solution. I've never modded the game, I'll have to learn how. Thank you for the suggestion. It's not like I'll ever stop playing the game because let's face it, it's in the upper echelon of survival games. If I can learn to mod out creative choices in the game that I disagree with, and by extension, play multiplayer with my friends who prefer it the way I do, then no harm no foul. I do have to admit, ever since alpha 17, my play experience has been more about the world, and less about my character, which is a good thing in a way. I look to supplies needed and construction projects required, rather than skill points wanted, and that's changed the way I play the game in a positive way. Just sucks when I specialize into Fortitude and Strength and I can't find a crucible anywhere, but I've begun keeping loot at 200% and getting Lucky Looter III to offset that. For multiplayer the new system works well because it limits every player to one or two roles, and the more people, the better; It's just the single-player aspect that seems to suffer. I remember when my biggest problem with the current alpha was zombie rage mode, but once I "got good" so to speak, it ceased being a perceived problem and became a welcomed part of the game for me. I'm hoping attributes will do the same, but I feel like modding is how it'll have to be for now. But hey, there's always the possibility you guys add in a server option for it, like "skill points per level up", or a toggleable alternative for single-players where Attributes are replaced with Perks and there are no gates between you and every perk. We'll see, but thanks for making the game anyway, regardless of how it ends up it's always going to be a 10/10 in my books, especially if it turns out it's highly moddable. I loved Empire at War because of the XML modding, you could tailor such a unique experience. Is 7dtd modding similar? I suppose I'll discover that myself when I look it up shortly. 

Edited by Trunks_Budo (see edit history)
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4 minutes ago, Marinxar said:

TFP can't make the game so that everyone is happy. It is impossible.

 

For experienced players, it is easy to maintain food with current system, or with ANY system. We have years of playing the game. There is not a system TFP can bring in, that we won't figure out in no time and find a way to cope with it. 

 

If TFP would try and make things difficult for us, they would make it impossible for everyone that is just starting to play the game, and they will soon have no new customers. TFP probably have a nice big statistic of what people complain most about. At very least they have the data. 

 

There is a simple solution to this. Enjoy the game as TFP see fit to make it, as they look at the big picture. We that want more challenges, we can mod it in. The current discussions about food spoiling is just going around in circles, and we been through it all before. I say, let us play the game, see how the system works, and if our personal requirements is not met, mod it  in. 

Yes this. At the end of the day new players need to have a chance and with all the new criticals food needs to be a source of healing not another way to die. It didn't make sense that after all the effort preparing a home cooked meal that there was still a random chance you would get sick and lose all your hard work (food) for not doing anything wrong.

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On 5/12/2020 at 8:40 AM, Laz Man said:

 

+ points for the ramparts looks on your horde base.  I love it. :) 

 

Having ole sledgy at the door sounds like a good use.  Will have to give that a try. 

Do you have to stand right near it for it to work though?

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Turrets mounted on Ceilings (w feet on ceiling). Minor thing, likely a 'gold polish' bit, but any news of if or when by chance?

 

And a couple questions about the "Junk Sledge";

 

1) any chance of there being a fixed block, wired up "Trap" version of it?

 

1a) if so, might it be placeable on a 'wall' facing downwards so as to pile drive pointy little zed heads?

 

 -- or, for hilaritys sake, face upwards to punch nosy zeds in their delicate places?? :biggrin-new:  <launching them a couple meters wins a Gold Star!>

 

<<oh oh! launching them upwards into a blade trap for some real splatter fun!>>

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2 hours ago, madmole said:

Remember the vending machines have mostly candy in them now so canned foods are much less available than in A18.

I never used or had the need to use the vending machine's at all and as Guppycur has said meat comes to you in droves I ended up with so much meat, food just wasn't any concern after a couple of days in game. 

 

For a survival game that's a little crazy in all honesty. 

 

Without perishing, meat is to easy to come by and I suggest a dice roll on how much an animal gives on a kill maybe one chunk to four max only. Even at times display a SPOILED tag on meat suggesting its tainted and therefore uneatable so every animal isn't a definable meat source.

Edited by Jay_ombie (see edit history)
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7 minutes ago, Jay_ombie said:

I never used or had the need to use the vending machine's at all and as Guppycur has said meat comes to you in droves I ended up with so much meat, food just wasn't any concern after a couple of days in game. 

 

For a survival game that's a little crazy in all honesty. 

 

Without perishing, meat is to easy to come by and I suggest a dice roll on how much an animal gives on a kill maybe one chunk to four max only. Even at times display a SPOILED tag on meat suggesting its tainted and therefore uneatable so every animal isn't a definable meat source.

 

I encourage you take another look (vanilla).  As some have stated, animals are not as common as most think.  Last time I looked at the vanilla spawning code, friendly animal spawns were like on a 21 day respawn cycle per chunk.  That is hardly droves in my opinion.  At the end of the day, once balance becomes a larger focus, those types of concerns can be easily tweaked and confident will be tweaked.

 

edit:

	<biome name="pine_forest">
		<spawn maxcount="1" respawndelay="3" time="Day" entitygroup="ZombiesAll" />
		<spawn maxcount="1" respawndelay="4" time="Night" entitygroup="ZombiesNight" />
		<spawn maxcount="1" respawndelay="14" time="Any" entitygroup="EnemyAnimalsForest" spawnDeadChance="0" />
		<spawn maxcount="1" respawndelay="21" time="Any" entitygroup="FriendlyAnimalsForest" spawnDeadChance="0" />
	</biome>

 

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)
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24 minutes ago, madmole said:

Yes this. At the end of the day new players need to have a chance and with all the new criticals food needs to be a source of healing not another way to die. It didn't make sense that after all the effort preparing a home cooked meal that there was still a random chance you would get sick and lose all your hard work (food) for not doing anything wrong.

And again, it's just as nonsensical to put effort preparing home cooked meals if there's no penalties to lower quality food at all. No one is saying all foods should have penalties, just that the ones that are lower tier (such as rotten or straight up uncooked food) should. If I have a broken leg, I don't think salmonella is going to help me heal.

 

I just want to put emphasis on the fact that this was a premise in the game's trailer.

Edited by Xtrakicking (see edit history)
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36 minutes ago, madmole said:

Rotting flesh and raw meat lower your health and can cause dysentery which shafts your stamina for a bit. Still balancing stuff but I think it will be fine. I'm looking forward to the max stamina boost good foods give so I can mine longer without gassing out.

Food for thought <snicker>

Ever think that maybe you don't need to be so heavy handed with stamina drains for everything? 

Maybe try just giving them a lower speed penalty, or weaken melee damage? It's kind of same end result, but has a different feel game play wise.

You get sick? you are a little slower for the day, or you just can't hit as hard, or you can't focus and line up the cross hairs while firing as well.

Not saying to change anything for a19

but, ya know.

It doesn't need to mostly be stamina, or health hits for the majority of debuffs while having a sickness.

 

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