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Alpha 19 Dev Diary

Roland

When you download A19 you MUST start a new save. Maps generated in A18 will NOT work for A19 games. 

 

Head HERE to report bugs.

Message added by Roland

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1 hour ago, Xtrakicking said:

Oh man, let's not even begin with the headshots only dilemma...

...

But yeah, headshots should be the only way to kill zombies. Lol

That depends, cutting the head off a zombie off doesn't kill it entirely, the head is still alive, you just pretty much disabled it as the rest of the body can't function without the head. Smashing a zombies foot while not killing it, would disable it somewhat so its much less of a threat. The zombie may not be "dead" but if its rendered pretty much harmless you could say it is. That can explain why torso blows work in 7dtd, you destroy enough of the bones and such that it just can't move its limbs much anymore if at all. in Z-nation the virus mutates to a point headshots do not kill zombies anymore, you have to pretty much completly crush the brain to kill them.

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Posted (edited)

Wrong can be relative.  Maybe it's wrong for you, maybe it's not wrong for TFP.  It would seem that not all plot holes are considered wrong by everyone:

https://screencraft.org/2018/03/09/do-you-know-the-five-different-types-of-plot-holes/

And instead of wrong, how about 'does it matter'?  This link would seem to support MadMole's earlier post about it not mattering.  (And it does seem like he/TFP should be able to make that decision.)

https://medium.com/@ChristopherMJones/why-plot-holes-matter-and-why-they-sometimes-dont-eefa882f5e30

And, finally, replace 'Movies' with 'Video Games'...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9HivyjAKlc

 

Edited by Quantum Blue (see edit history)
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9 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

Right that's the literal textbook definition of plothole, but as I mentioned people don't use plothole that way.  IE Common Parlance.  Anything that doesn't seem to make sense to someone becomes a plothole regardless of whether it is or not.  Which is why you're trying to apply plotholes to game mechanics in a game without story or lore when that's not how plotholes work.

There are not inconsistencies in the zombie lore right now because there is no zombie lore right now to have inconsistencies in.  The lore has not attempted to explain how zombies work or how to kill them or etc because it doesn't exist.  WE made up our own ideas based on how the game plays.  But the game is not mechanics as a story or mechanics as a metaphor or anything like that.  It's just a video game ass video game right now.  Until they put an official lore/story to the game it does not have plotholes by definition.  You can't have inconsistencies in the narrative or character development if no narrative or character development exists.

You have created your own headcannon lore/story just like we all have.  Those headcannon ideas can have plot holes of course, but those are fan creations and not official story/narrative/lore.

But when multiple people are saying the lore is all over the place and the def of a z is all over the place and that there is no specific def of a z and what tfp see as a z definately it leads to confusion to the whole and questions of this type come into play.

None of it is bagging tfp or anything. it is asking for clarity as to what type a z genre are they going for. as is the game adds as an example multiple games in one. we have sci fi, we have futuristic, we have alien, we have medieval, we have stone age, we have fantasy. so trying to work out why zs bleed out slicing and dicing, but continue when you remove limbs with a weapon like a gun it facilitates a what question.

13 minutes ago, Scyris said:

That depends, cutting the head off a zombie off doesn't kill it entirely, the head is still alive, you just pretty much disabled it as the rest of the body can't function without the head. Smashing a zombies foot while not killing it, would disable it somewhat so its much less of a threat. The zombie may not be "dead" but if its rendered pretty much harmless you could say it is. That can explain why torso blows work in 7dtd, you destroy enough of the bones and such that it just can't move its limbs much anymore if at all. in Z-nation the virus mutates to a point headshots do not kill zombies anymore, you have to pretty much completly crush the brain to kill them.

headshotting a z are completely different to decapitating a z.

both are completely different and seperate to each other.

 

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2 minutes ago, stallionsden said:

But when multiple people are saying the lore is all over the place and the def of a z is all over the place and that there is no specific def of a z and what tfp see as a z definately it leads to confusion to the whole and questions of this type come into play.

None of it is bagging tfp or anything. it is asking for clarity as to what type a z genre are they going for. as is the game adds as an example multiple games in one. we have sci fi, we have futuristic, we have alien, we have medieval, we have stone age, we have fantasy. so trying to work out why zs bleed out slicing and dicing, but continue when you remove limbs with a weapon like a gun it facilitates a what question.

headshotting a z are completely different to decapitating a z.

both are completely different and seperate to each other.

 

Not entirely, both render a zombie effectivly harmless.

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7 minutes ago, Quantum Blue said:

Fascinating.  'All plot holes are wrong.'  Wrong can be relative.  Maybe it's wrong for you, maybe it's not wrong for TFP.  It would seem that not all plot holes are considered wrong by everyone:

https://screencraft.org/2018/03/09/do-you-know-the-five-different-types-of-plot-holes/

And instead of wrong, how about 'does it matter'?  This link would seem to support MadMole's earlier post about it not mattering.  (And it does seem like he should be able to make that decision.)

https://medium.com/@ChristopherMJones/why-plot-holes-matter-and-why-they-sometimes-dont-eefa882f5e30

And, finally, replace 'Movies' with 'Video Games'...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9HivyjAKlc

 

remembering that is that opinion of that person whom wrote it. Who could be completely wrong, so the first there again applies

Just now, Scyris said:

Not entirely, both render a zombie effectivly harmless.

wrong a headshot completely nullifies a zombie attacking. Decapitating a zombie only makes it not be able to chase you but if one were to go in its vicinity or another player used it it can still make you turn into a zombie.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

You can't have inconsistencies in the narrative or character development if no narrative or character development exists.

Except there IS a narrative, to some extent. Just by playing the game, a story begins to unfold. You're a survivor in Arizona, in the year 2034, after a third world war, and in a zombie apocalypse caused by an unknown virus. Just with this small synopsis, some rules are already set. In other words, even if the devs haven't explicitly established all and every piece of the lore, this doesn't mean there can't be inconsistencies with what we already have. Following your logic, we could argue that seeing trees grow wings and fly out into the sky during horde night would be acceptable and not inconsistent or illogical at all, because there is no lore (exaggerated example, but you get my point).

At any rate, I think it's best to leave it here.

Edited by Xtrakicking (see edit history)

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Hey I just tested this and can confirm, bleeding kills with barb-wire mod installed do not give XP. (I'll put this in the bug report section)

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17 minutes ago, Quantum Blue said:

snipped-

And, finally, replace 'Movies' with 'Video Games'...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9HivyjAKlc

 

i dont generally watch youtube links in forums because so many things i dont want to see. i loved this one tho.

2 minutes ago, XCOUNTRY said:

Hey I just tested this and can confirm, bleeding kills with barb-wire mod installed do not give XP. (I'll put this in the bug report section)

hmmm which is greater 6 or 1/2 doz.... 

Spoiler

it doesnt matter

 

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4 minutes ago, stallionsden said:

None of it is bagging tfp or anything. it is asking for clarity as to what type a z genre are they going for. as is the game adds as an example multiple games in one. we have sci fi, we have futuristic, we have alien, we have medieval, we have stone age, we have fantasy. so trying to work out why zs bleed out slicing and dicing, but continue when you remove limbs with a weapon like a gun it facilitates a what question.

Why do they have to be aiming at any type of zombie genre?  It's a survival game not a book or movie.  The same way Minecraft didn't have any lore for years and years until story mode.  And indeed why would they have to choose an existing genre of zombies?  Why couldn't they have their own unique variant of zombies?  You don't need to know their life stories or biologies or anything, build/kill/survive, that's the game.  Until such point they add lore and story anyways.  Also, what you mentioned are settings, not genres.  Sci Fi is the only genre you mentioned, the rest are settings or time periods.

As far as to why limbs don't cause bleeding when blown off?  First you need to explain how a 9mm round can explode an arm like you hit the arm with a small grenade.  Bullets don't work like that.  If we were REALLY concerned about accuracy you wouldn't be able to blow off an arm with anything smaller than a 50 cal.  Similarly clubs, sledgehammers, knives, spear stabs, stun batons, etc would not blow off an arm.   If the bleeding needs to be accurate and we're going to that level of nuance then it needs to be consistent, after all we are complaining about consistency right?

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6 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

Following your logic, we could argue that seeing trees grow wings and fly out into the sky during horde night would be acceptable and not inconsistent or ilogical at all,

Depends on what you've been eating. Look at all the happy creatures dancing on the lawn.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

Following your logic, we could argue that seeing trees grow wings and fly out into the sky during horde night would be acceptable and not inconsistent or illogical at all, because there is no lore (exaggerated example, but you get my point).

Perfect example of not explained but not necessarily illogical but rather you living in a limited creative space. 

Explanation requiring no new lore at all but instead just a well designed graphic model:  The tree swoops down to attack you with it's claws.  That's right claws.  When it gets close you notice that the thing you thought was a tree was actually a camouflaged zombie with an appearance similar to a wight underneath the exterior camouflage and the exposed inner sections you couldn't see when it was stationary softly glow with radiation.  The game has told you nothing but it appears that some of the zombies exposed to radiation have evolved to "mimic" other objects.  After surviving the encounter I let out a nervous laugh, my friend laughed too, the door laughed, we shot the door.

Nature actually does this kind of stuff all the time.  I'd imagine a walking stick bug looked rather illogical to the first person who saw a stick move and thought it was possessed :D.

Edited by Ralathar44 (see edit history)

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8 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

Why do they have to be aiming at any type of zombie genre?  It's a survival game not a book or movie.  The same way Minecraft didn't have any lore for years and years until story mode.  And indeed why would they have to choose an existing genre of zombies?  Why couldn't they have their own unique variant of zombies?  You don't need to know their life stories or biologies or anything, build/kill/survive, that's the game.  Until such point they add lore and story anyways.  Also, what you mentioned are settings, not genres.  Sci Fi is the only genre you mentioned, the rest are settings or time periods.

As far as to why limbs don't cause bleeding when blown off?  First you need to explain how a 9mm round can explode an arm like you hit the arm with a small grenade.  Bullets don't work like that.  If we were REALLY concerned about accuracy you wouldn't be able to blow off an arm with anything smaller than a 50 cal.  Similarly clubs, sledgehammers, knives, spear stabs, stun batons, etc would not blow off an arm.   If the bleeding needs to be accurate and we're going to that level of nuance then it needs to be consistent, after all we are complaining about consistency right?

A zombies body decays because of the lifelessness of the body. as only the brain and the stem are still alive so as to be able to move those thru the nerve system in which the brain remembers the least amount of work needed to get to the core need of a zombie... your brains. so the body parts can fall off easily with a dead person as opposed to a alive one.

minecraft isnt beamed as a zombie game, whilest pre alpha 8 7dtd had partial minecraft  resemblence, 7dtd went a different route. anyways content to see what tfp end up with in the final product. and hope more clarity as to the zs they come up with and hopefully all will entwine and these oddities are corrected.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, stallionsden said:

A zombies body decays because of the lifelessness of the body. as only the brain and the stem are still alive so as to be able to move those thru the nerve system in which the brain remembers the least amount of work needed to get to the core need of a zombie... your brains. so the body parts can fall off easily with a dead person as opposed to a alive one.

minecraft isnt beamed as a zombie game, whilest pre alpha 8 7dtd had partial minecraft  resemblence, 7dtd went a different route. anyways content to see what tfp end up with in the final product. and hope more clarity as to the zs they come up with and hopefully all will entwine and these oddities are corrected.

Nothing you said makes a 9mm bullet fired from a pistol explode an arm like the bullet was a grenade either, which you need to explain if you want to complain about how an exploded arm doesn't bleed or how bleed damage hurts a zombie.  Even if the arm is rotted it would not make the arm explode off.  It'd just make a bullet more likely to completely penetrate and leave a hole, which would ironically result in LESS damage to the arm than normal.  Bullets are designed to mushroom for this very reason, because by mushrooming it spread out the surface area of the bullet on the target to make a larger hole.  Similarly the arm has to stop the bullet for any transmission of force.  The less resistance the arm provides the less force would be transmitted to the arm.

So if we really want to be accurate then we need to remove decaps of head/limbs from everything that isn't an axe/machete/explosive and maybe shovel.  And that'd be just one of a great deal of changes we'd need to make if we were looking for consistent realism and immersion.

Edited by Ralathar44 (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

Nothing you said makes a 9mm bullet fired from a pistol explode an arm like the bullet was a grenade either, which you need to explain if you want to complain about how an exploded arm doesn't bleed or how bleed damage hurts a zombie.  Even if the arm is rotted it would not make the arm explode off.  It'd just make a bullet more likely to completely penetrate and leave a hole, which would ironically result in LESS damage to the arm than normal.  Bullets are designed to mushroom for this very reason, because by mushrooming it spread out the surface area of the bullet on the target to make a larger hole.  Similarly the arm has to stop the bullet for any transmission of force.  The less resistance the arm provides the less force would be transmitted to the arm.

So if we really want to be accurate then we need to remove decaps of head/limbs from everything that isn't an axe/machete/explosive and maybe shovel.  And that'd be just one of a great deal of changes we'd need to make if we were looking for consistent realism and immersion.

Wrong a dead person the  body has decay and rot. A zombie has no blood unless freshly turned. The blood in a dead person  drains out dries up and clots to a solid form. Thus rendering the bullet quite capable to remove the limb from the rest of the body if the bullet hits the joint thus rendering any skin attached to that section null and void as it is rotted decayed and well dead. 

 

Yes bringing realism into it. But when others want to bring realism in they can to suit their own needs. 

 

So in using realism depending on decay rate of body and the length a time that corpse has been dead for will also depend on how far away you can be to remove that limb from that joint. 

 

Ofc for a bullet from a weapon the distance one would come into the equation as well and it would be aporoximate to the weapon used ofc.

Edited by stallionsden (see edit history)

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1 minute ago, stallionsden said:

Wrong a dead person the  body has decay and rot. A zombie has no blood unless freshly turned. The blood in a dead person  drains out dries up and clots to a solid form. Thus rendering the bullet quite capable to remove the limb from the rest of the body if the bullet hits the joint thus rendering any skin attached to that section null and void as it is rotted decayed and well dead.

Tell me, in your bloodless zombie how do the muscles function?  No blood, no air, no way to get nutrients to them.  This goes for the nerves that send them the signals too.  Nutrients have to be delivered to all the various cells for them to function.  Blood is also highly necessary in digestion, which is how we get new energy. 

While a person can survive off the nutrients in their body for some time, that's because they have blood to distribute those nutrients taken from the rest of the body.  With no blood flow the cells quickly lose the ability to function.  Muscle damage occurs within about 6 hours even when only a tourniquet is used and that doesn't even completely stop the flow of blood.

So your bloodless zombie is running off of a magical energy source that is magically delivered to each cell, including the nerves and muscles of course.  If magic is involved then everything makes sense because magic and realism goes right out the window.  Even if we take your comment at face value all you've done is create a new problem.

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Zombies are not dead, since dead creatures cannot move without some force acting on them. If they are dead, then it must be the hive mind using telekinesis to move them about.

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What comes first? Lyrics or tune? Do you write the poetry and then find music to fit it or do you compose the tune and then seek words to fit that.

TFP is establishing fun first and then will use their imagination to fit some lore to it that is still loose enough that players can use their imagination to fill in the gaps.

Some of you want the lore first and then fit the fun to that but that is not the only way to do it.

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5 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

Tell me, in your bloodless zombie how do the muscles function?  No blood, no air, no way to get nutrients to them.  This goes for the nerves that send them the signals too.  Nutrients have to be delivered to all the various cells for them to function.  Blood is also highly necessary in digestion, which is how we get new energy. 

While a person can survive off the nutrients in their body for some time, that's because they have blood to distribute those nutrients taken from the rest of the body.  With no blood flow the cells quickly lose the ability to function.  Muscle damage occurs within about 6 hours even when only a tourniquet is used and that doesn't even completely stop the flow of blood.

So your bloodless zombie is running off of a magical energy source that is magically delivered to each cell, including the nerves and muscles of course.  If magic is involved then everything makes sense because magic and realism goes right out the window.  Even if we take your comment at face value all you've done is create a new problem.

Well actually its nerves that still function not muscles. Maybe need to research how the body functions. Muscle will turn to fat and fat will disintegrate. 

 

The brain more so the brain stem since it the only part alive sends impulses thru the nerves which move the body. Your muscles dont actually move body parts.  The only part that does that is the penis.  Which is muscle stimulated via nerves as well. As well as  your tongue which  is pure muscle. 

 

When a zombie eats it replenishes and diminishes the need so much to feed cause it needs to feed to keep the nerves going and the brain stem going. A zombie that doesnt eat will die eventually from not eating as the nerves and brain stem will die again. 

 

Same when you die in real life your muscle turns to fat your blood solidifies and dissipates. As well as body rots and decays etc. Eventually your body is just skeleton. Nothing magical about how the body works if ya know what your talking about...

10 minutes ago, faatal said:

Zombies are not dead, since dead creatures cannot move without some force acting on them. If they are dead, then it must be the hive mind using telekinesis to move them about.

Zombies are dead in every iteration of the zombie genre no matter which you look at they are dead. Regardless which genre. 

 

Anything that isnt dead is still alive and thus not classified as a zombie. Already explained the workings of the body after "death" and how a zombie would move after "death"

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4 minutes ago, Roland said:

What comes first? Lyrics or tune? Do you write the poetry and then find music to fit it or do you compose the tune and then seek words to fit that.

TFP is establishing fun first and then will use their imagination to fit some lore to it that is still loose enough that players can use their imagination to fill in the gaps.

Some of you want the lore first and then fit the fun to that but that is not the only way to do it.

I am partial to TFP doing whatever the Rekt they want with the lore and/or the gameplay. IMO they end up doing the right thing 90% of the time and if Zds bleed and they won't change it, let 'em bleed goshdarnit.

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4 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

I am partial to TFP doing whatever the Rekt they want with the lore and/or the gameplay. IMO they end up doing the right thing 90% of the time and if Zds bleed and they won't change it, let 'em bleed goshdarnit.

The bleed thing isnt the issue.  Its you can cut a limb or slice and dice a limb and the z bleeds out. But when you blow off a limb they dont bleed out. Conflicting results 

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Just now, stallionsden said:

The bleed thing isnt the issue.  Its you can cut a limb or slice and dice a limb and the z bleeds out. But when you blow off a limb they dont bleed out. Conflicting results 

I also agree with that statement. Making them not bleed would only enrich the gameplay when human npcs are in. The thing is, why all the fuss? when we get human npcs they will think about it and put it in or out (not in the Snowdog sense).

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, stallionsden said:

Well actually its nerves that still function not muscles. Maybe need to research how the body functions. Muscle will turn to fat and fat will disintegrate.  Your muscles dont actually move body parts. 

Guess the astronauts should have just focused on their nerves since muscles are not important.  Alright, this is ridiculous, I'm out.  I concede all points.  Your bloodless zombies with muscles that function forever without outside nutrients/energy but aren't actually needed to move body parts are entirely realistic.

Edited by Ralathar44 (see edit history)

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