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Alpha 19 Dev Diary

Roland

When you download A19 you MUST start a new save. Maps generated in A18 will NOT work for A19 games. 

 

Head HERE to report bugs.

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3 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Totally agree!  The zombie lore police gets tiring!

I must chalk the sombies we have up the radiation, yes it started as a normal zombie virus, but then the govt decided to try to nuke stuff to contain it, causing the virus to mutate into what we have now. Feral's for example I personally consider to be more recently turned people, so they retain the ability to run, are smarter, and healthier, the older a zombie gets the lower its stats should be, as they start to rot eventually.

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4 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

Sorry, but saying none of that means anything is just not true. It's important for a game to be fun, yes. It's also important for a game to be immersive. You can be vague with the lore and still make sense (TWD does this). You can make a great game that's incredibly fun and also make sense. You make it seem like it's either one or the other, as if both things couldn't coexist.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the giant bee removed because people complained it didn't fit in the game? Why did you remove the giant bee if immersion means nothing?

We adapted to our audience a bit and felt a vulture would provide the same game play with less WTF. I'm not saying immersion isn't important, it is. But while in early development we didn't want to be worrying about lore all the time when we didn't even have a story fully crafted. Its more of a backdrop canvas, lets paint in stuff and if it seems cool lets keep it, if not then paint something else in it place. The details will come together later.

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2 hours ago, Xtrakicking said:

Oh God... here we go.

So, one of my little nitpicks with this game is that there's little to no lore at all, and the devs haven't really defined what type of zombies they want at all either. Madmole has said many times in previous posts that these zombies are undead zombies, not infected (he said it recently when arguing about zombies not drowning). You can clearly see that zombies are injured with mortal wounds, such as having their faces torn apart and their skulls split open, showing their brains. You can also dismember all their limbs, yet they don't die of bleeding then, and can stay alive with no problem. Also, now with the new zombies it's even more clear that they're rotting corpses that walk, and that's the way the devs seemed to refer to the zombies. Clearly, they'd be the "undead" type, right?

Then how come they die of bleeding from a knife? 

Part of me hopes that the bleeding bonus is applied on zombies as a placeholder for when bandits and NPCs show up... Cause no aspect of the game hints at zombies being infected people that are still alive.

The dying from bleeding is honestly kinda silly not going to lie and makes little to no sense on a zombie. If it was like a dot from acid or fire I could see it, but bleed makes no sense, I just roll with it though.

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23 minutes ago, Odetta said:

In my lore they are infected with a weaponized STD, like Super Aids or something.  I mean this is a Fun Pimps game after all.  Every 7 days they have a flair up and ravenously look for a new victim to hump. 

It works for me.  

no dude its Mega Aids! super aids are different! 

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, madmole said:

Pfft. None of that means anything. All that matters is the game is fun. We've deliberately been vague so we're not painted into a corner by hardcore fans who are dogmatic about lore and what is acceptable. They could be undead. That is just some voodoo word meaning "this guy should by all intensive purposes be dead, but is somehow still walking". We might get a little more rigid with our lore as we start pushing out more story towards the end, but during early alpha development we wanted to be vague so we could make a fun game, and not be having conversations regarding lore or have the fun police step in and ruin a good game mechanic.

If lore and immersion were so important Telltale would have survived instead of us.

Your game, do whatever. All these people getting bent, over someone pointing something out that seems weird too them is funny as all get out though. 

Edited by Tin (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Scyris said:

The dying from bleeding is honestly kinda silly not going to lie and makes little to no sense on a zombie. If it was like a dot from acid or fire I could see it, but bleed makes no sense, I just roll with it though.

I always considered them mutants.  We have cops who spit acid, spider zombies who can leap dozens of feet, ferals who can sense you through walls, radiation zombies who regenerate, and they all seem to be stronger and tougher than normal.  Mutant explains all of this and plays into the radiation angle.  But I think undead mutant is possible too.

See the funny thing about undead is that undead can work however you want it to works since it's a fictional concept that doesn't work IRL.  There is no rule that says undead can't still need blood to function.  And indeed you can have your flesh rot off you without even being dead so rot =/= dead even much less define your other capabilities.  I mean if we went full realism then "undead" zombies have ALOT of problems. 

IMO treat the blood like hydraulic fluid if you want.  Maybe the zombie doesn't "die" again but it loses the ability for locomotion.

Edited by Ralathar44 (see edit history)
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Devils advocate... although they don't breathe or are alive, the liquid in their body is still important to... no, it's weird.  Zombies shouldn't bleed out.   I mean I get it from the gamey perspective (blunt, slashing, piercing damages) but that's what makes it uh, gamey.

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1 minute ago, Guppycur said:

Devils advocate... although they don't breathe or are alive, the liquid in their body is still important to... no, it's weird.  Zombies shouldn't bleed out.   I mean I get it from the gamey perspective (blunt, slashing, piercing damages) but that's what makes it uh, gamey.

Why?  Why is blood not important to zombies?  Why do the muscles function without fluids or air?  How does them being hurt by bleeding make less sense then blood/breathing not being required?  I understand a realism argument but that debunks undead in general via many different problems unless magic is involved.

If it's a "this is what zombies are supposed to be like" argument even Romero had some pretty out there zombies like zombies riding horses, using firearms and tools, forming communities, etc.  So the "grandfather of zombies" breaks alot of the zombie rules people have decided are the one true zombie.

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Well, because by that logic, the wounds they took (some have pretty blatant open wounds) would have led to blood loss long ago.

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Guys, it's okay to agree to disagree here.  #RomeroGate is a controversial topic lol.

Havent really given much thought to why do zombies bleed or die from bleeding.  It doesnt quite fit typical zombie lore but understand it adds gameplay variance so it probably adds more then it takes away.

Love all you guys btw (dont get any ideas snow...lol).  Stay safe and keep your 7 Day Surviving on. 😅

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Well, because by that logic, the wounds they took (some have pretty blatant open wounds) would have led to blood loss long ago.

I'd say that goes for all damage against them seeing as I can kill a zombie by sledgehammering it in the foot :D.  That's not confined to bleeding.  We can kill the zombies in alot of ways that suggest their original wounds should have incapacitated them.  Without some sort of internal bleeding or etc basically all forms of arrows and bullets really shouldn't have any effect on an undead enemy unless it's a headshot since tissue damage/bleeding shouldn't incapacitate undead.

Edited by Ralathar44 (see edit history)

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Leave the baby alone, it doesn't have to go with the bathwater. One thing being unrealistic doesn't mean you have to go careening down that slope and take anything that's not securely rooted in reality away. It's one of the worst arguments out there, and it crops up a LOT. Subjectivity is a thing, and not everything is binary.

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18 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Devils advocate... although they don't breathe or are alive, the liquid in their body is still important to... no, it's weird.  Zombies shouldn't bleed out.   I mean I get it from the gamey perspective (blunt, slashing, piercing damages) but that's what makes it uh, gamey.

Double devils advocate, maybe they aren't dead, they just quit moving and making noise from loss of blood. Yeah you got XP, but who says its kill xp? Maybe its a plausible victory over that zed xp.

IMO if we were debating a magic virus that brings people back from the dead or a transitory state from death to a new zombie like semi functional state, they would still probably need blood circulating to keep rigor mortis from setting in, which makes a corpse still and limbs difficult to bend. In that sense perhaps bleeding out would incapacitate a zombie. Perhaps they have a very slow heart beat so they are colder but still sort of function. With a very slow heart rate, etc they might not need as much oxygen either or be able to survive for hours underwater making them seem undead.

At any rate a virus could do some very weird stuff at a cellular level and cause an organism to function differently that what we perceive as possible. Its best not to get caught up in those details because most lack an imagination sufficient to suspend disbelief.  I like some things to be vague because those with imagination can make it fun and whatever they want. That is why we have a lot of options to make the zombie sim "feel" how you want it to without us being heavy handed and tied down to lore.

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8 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Well, because by that logic, the wounds they took (some have pretty blatant open wounds) would have led to blood loss long ago.

Not if the pulse is 1 beat per minute and the blood is semi coagulated. Maybe its very high in red blood cell count so they wouldn't bleed a ton.

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2 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

I'd say that goes for all damage against them seeing as I can kill a zombie by sledgehammering it in the foot :D.  That's not confined to bleeding.  We can kill the zombies in alot of ways that suggest their original wounds should have incapacitated them.  Without some sort of internal bleeding or etc basically all forms of arrows and bullets really shouldn't have any effect on an undead enemy unless it's a headshot since tissue damage/bleeding shouldn't incapacitate undead.

Oh man, let's not even begin with the headshots only dilemma...

...

But yeah, headshots should be the only way to kill zombies. Lol

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Yeah, when you're talking in universe fiction that isn't based on staunch realism you can basically lore your way around almost anything.  I don't have a problem with many different explanations of how things could work.  I don't have a problem with folks applying realism, but cherry picking what realism you want to apply and what is ok is super subjective and so it's always a losing argument.  One that has been a talked about and openly mocked for decades in video games forums back even in the days of 56k :D.

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Posted (edited)

Similar to "The Hunter" mod for weapons, bleed damage over time SHOULD only matter to (currently) pvpers and animal hunters. Once TFP finally add in bandits officially, bleed DoTs should be much more useful.

However, zombies affected by bleed DoT in items.xml and buffs.xml = lazy coders, and possibly QA for not catching an obvious bug. HR needs to get a crackin', because there are plenty of both talented and experienced personnel who will work from home right now.

Edited by Cernwn (see edit history)
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6 minutes ago, madmole said:

Double devils advocate, maybe they aren't dead, they just quit moving and making noise from loss of blood. Yeah you got XP, but who says its kill xp? Maybe its a plausible victory over that zed xp.

IMO if we were debating a magic virus that brings people back from the dead or a transitory state from death to a new zombie like semi functional state, they would still probably need blood circulating to keep rigor mortis from setting in, which makes a corpse still and limbs difficult to bend. In that sense perhaps bleeding out would incapacitate a zombie. Perhaps they have a very slow heart beat so they are colder but still sort of function. With a very slow heart rate, etc they might not need as much oxygen either or be able to survive for hours underwater making them seem undead.

At any rate a virus could do some very weird stuff at a cellular level and cause an organism to function differently that what we perceive as possible. Its best not to get caught up in those details because most lack an imagination sufficient to suspend disbelief.  I like some things to be vague because those with imagination can make it fun and whatever they want. That is why we have a lot of options to make the zombie sim "feel" how you want it to without us being heavy handed and tied down to lore.

i think people are wanting a basis of the zombies.

like at the moment the game play has more a bit of this a bit of that a bit more of that over there. confusing and weird. WE have a bit of twd, a bit of space invaders, a bit of magic, a bit of yadda yadda yadda. this is a zombie game but to some the "lore" of it states many other aspects that are outside the realm of zombies and more so some "zombies" are just normal people some of us have to deal with every day stupid and brain dead lol.

 

As for bleeding it is weird as people have said that you can cut a arm off etc and they bleed out, yet you can blow limbs off and they keep going. as well as some of these "zs" already have large craters of damage to the body which would lead to a loss of blood leading to death but still keep going, the afforementioned cutting off limbs to blowing off limbs counteracts and confuses that argument.

And to the person who mentioned killing a zombie with a sledgehammer by hitting their foot.. well some people have brains in their big toe so that answers that one lol 😛

 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

Yeah, when you're talking in universe fiction that isn't based on staunch realism you can basically lore your way around almost anything.  I don't have a problem with many different explanations of how things could work.  I don't have a problem with folks applying realism, but cherry picking what realism you want to apply and what is ok is super subjective and so it's always a losing argument.  One that has been a talked about and openly mocked for decades in video games forums back even in the days of 56k :D.

Coming up with theories on a certain mystery presented in a story is one thing. Trying to cover up clear plotholes, goofs and contradictions through random explanations is another. In these circumstances, it's not cherry picking, it's just that my disbelief is not suspended.

Edit: Just to add to my comment, I don't understand why it's hard to grasp that even in fiction there has to be some limits to some things. Movies and books are examples of this. Otherwise, like you said, you can basically "lore your way around anything". Deus Ex Machina, in other words.

Edited by Xtrakicking (see edit history)
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Just now, Xtrakicking said:

Coming up with theories on a certain mystery presented in a story is one thing. Trying to cover up clear plotholes, goofs and contradictions through random explanations is another. In these circumstances, it's not cherry picking, it's just that my disbelief is not suspended.

A plothole is just something that is not explained, not necessarily something that is wrong.  Most things people consider plotholes can be explained with in universe lore, but the lack of an explanation =/= something not being possible.  People often limit their own creativity when trying to explain things and their possibility space is confined to a tiny box of pre-conceived ideas of how things "should" work. 

The game doesn't properly explain everything, this is something Madmole just sated because they don't have the story of everything built out and finalized just yet.  They've focused on the gameplay, and that's wise because otherwise you constantly have to retcon your story to deal with new mechanical changes.  There are not even any plotholes because there is no plot :P.

Once they have a story and full fledged lore written out people can knock themselves out on criticizing it.  But with it non-existent this is like complaining about how bad someone's kid is before the kid is even born.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, madmole said:

Double devils advocate, maybe they aren't dead, they just quit moving and making noise from loss of blood. Yeah you got XP, but who says its kill xp? Maybe its a plausible victory over that zed xp.

IMO if we were debating a magic virus that brings people back from the dead or a transitory state from death to a new zombie like semi functional state, they would still probably need blood circulating to keep rigor mortis from setting in, which makes a corpse still and limbs difficult to bend. In that sense perhaps bleeding out would incapacitate a zombie. Perhaps they have a very slow heart beat so they are colder but still sort of function. With a very slow heart rate, etc they might not need as much oxygen either or be able to survive for hours underwater making them seem undead.

At any rate a virus could do some very weird stuff at a cellular level and cause an organism to function differently that what we perceive as possible. Its best not to get caught up in those details because most lack an imagination sufficient to suspend disbelief.  I like some things to be vague because those with imagination can make it fun and whatever they want. That is why we have a lot of options to make the zombie sim "feel" how you want it to without us being heavy handed and tied down to lore.

Madmole. I said it once, I repeat it again. We don't get xp from inducing  bleed on Zds in a18.4 b4. Yes with fire. Not with bleeding. Can you please check it again? It seems you guys intend for it to happen.

 

Edit: It seems I was only partiatly correct. Barbed wire mod-induced bleeding does not give xp. Blade weapons do. Just found out. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Edited by Blake_ (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

Madmole. I said it once, I repeat it again. We don't get xp from inducing  bleed on Zds in a18.4 b4. Yes with fire. Not with bleeding. Can you please check it again? It seems you guys intend for it to happen.

Someone already showed you a video where it clearly shows you do get exp for bleeding kills.  I see no reason why we would get exp beyond just the kill. 

 

Edited by Ralathar44 (see edit history)
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Just now, Ralathar44 said:

Someone already showed you a video where it clearly shows you do get exp for bleeding kills.  You are incorrect.

 

Oh I see. Then it is only the barbed wire mod that I just checked. Rendering it useless. It is indeed an issue. Sorry for that and thanks

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12 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

A plothole is just something that is not explained, not necessarily something that is wrong.  Most things people consider plotholes can be explained with in universe lore, but the lack of an explanation =/= something not being possible.  People often limit their own creativity when trying to explain things and their possibility space is confined to a tiny box of pre-conceived ideas of how things "should" work. 

The game doesn't properly explain everything, this is something Madmole just sated because they don't have the story of everything built out and finalized just yet.  They've focused on the gameplay, and that's wise because otherwise you constantly have to retcon your story to deal with new mechanical changes.  There are not even any plotholes because there is no plot :P.

Once they have a story and full fledged lore written out people can knock themselves out on criticizing it.  But with it non-existent this is like complaining about how bad someone's kid is before the kid is even born.

Actually, a plothole is indeed something that's wrong. The definition of plothole is: "In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is an inconsistency in the narrative or character development of a book, film, television show, etc."

That being said, I get that the lore of the game isn't finalized. Madmole already said that details will fall into place eventually, and with that I'm content. Even so, as of A18, these inconsisencies are present, so I give feedback on it.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Xtrakicking said:

Actually, a plothole is indeed something that's wrong. The definition of plothole is: "In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is an inconsistency in the narrative or character development of a book, film, television show, etc."

That being said, I get that the lore of the game isn't finalized. Madmole already said that details will fall into place eventually, and with that I'm content. Even so, as of A18, these inconsisencies are present, so I give feedback on it.

Right that's the literal textbook definition of plothole, but as I mentioned people don't use plothole that way.  IE Common Parlance.  Anything that doesn't seem to make sense to someone becomes a plothole regardless of whether it is or not.  Which is why you're trying to apply plotholes to game mechanics in a game without story or lore when that's not how plotholes work.

There are not inconsistencies in the zombie lore right now because there is no zombie lore right now to have inconsistencies in.  The lore has not attempted to explain how zombies work or how to kill them or etc because it doesn't exist.  WE made up our own ideas based on how the game plays.  But the game is not mechanics as a story or mechanics as a metaphor or anything like that.  It's just a video game ass video game right now.  Until they put an official lore/story to the game it does not have plotholes by definition.  You can't have inconsistencies in the narrative or character development if no narrative or character development exists.

You have created your own headcannon lore/story just like we all have.  Those headcannon ideas can have plot holes of course, but those are fan creations and not official story/narrative/lore.

Edited by Ralathar44 (see edit history)

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